Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CyberDoc 01-07-05, 08:14 PM	Hi, I run a weekly group for younger players at my local gaming store. I enjoy running games for players and enjoy roleplaying as well. I have been playing RPG's for almost 20 years now and running them almost 10. Typically my groups have been adults or older teens. The problem I am having at the moment is with a group of younger players aged 11 to roughly 14. The personality confilcts and egos involved are destroying group cohesion. I have tried talking to them individually and as a group, even going so far as to institute a contract that they had to sign to play. All has been for naught. I feel badly for these kids as no one else will run them. Period. All the other adults have washed their hands of them and I am at the point where I am feeling the same. It has come to the point though that I am ready to ban them all and say to heck with running a game period. Any advice would be appreciated.
Dash Branaghan 01-07-05, 10:11 PM	Sounds like your typical adolescent urination contest. Is this a matter of them competing with each other in the game to see who is the best or is it a part of an OOG conflict? A little more information would be helpful, but I have a couple of suggestions. The first involves getting it out of their system. Have them make 10th level characters that are going to fight each other. Let them make their characters, and then let them kick the crap out of each others character. Once that is done, sit them down again as a group, use a point buy system (if you don't already) so no one can complain about someone else having better rolls, and then have them, as a group, make a party. Everyone contributes to everyone else's character to make it the best that it can be. It's powergaming, but I don't think these kids are gaming for RP. If you can provide any insight into why these kids have such issues, I would appreciate it. It might help with later suggestions. Dash
BRJN 01-07-05, 10:16 PM	I suggest you make an announcement and wind up the current plot thread, as best you can with the group. The announcement is that you will be running an invitation-only scenario. Do not announce that this will be with some - but not all - of the group. (The others could show up and be audience if they want.) Then decide who is working well with each other and with you, and mail them an invitation.
CyberDoc 01-07-05, 10:50 PM	<Is this a matter of them competing with each other in the game to see who is the best or is it a part of an OOG conflict?> It is more of a personality conflict. I have two sets of brothers in the group and the four are constantly be-littling and harrassing the other set of brothers. <The first involves getting it out of their system. Have them make 10th level characters that are going to fight each other. Let them make their characters, and then let them kick the crap out of each others character.> Actually they do that well enough in game with the charachters they have. <If you can provide any insight into why these kids have such issues, I would appreciate it. It might help with later suggestions.> Getting to know these kids I have discovered that the majority of them have severely screwed up family settings. From alcoholic parents to abusive ones. There are alot of issues that I am having to deal with that I would rather not. All of them seem to have chips on their shoulders. Its like they need a shrink, not a DM. I try to work them in to my group so they will have some sort of structured setting. It doesnt seem to work that well though. Half of them are there simply to roll dice and kill stuff while badgering the rest of the party. As for roleplaying I have tried to teach these kids how to do so but it has been a pointless effort. I have two that will vanish from the table for periods of time and when it comes time for them to do something their like "Uhh whats going on?" It may be that my group is a bit too large at anywhere from 11 to 21 people at a time. BUT before you pass judgement on that. That is the typical number for me to run with adults and older teens. I enjoy large groups as it allows for really diverse games. And yes i am able to run those smoothly. It seems the addition of the younger players destroys the game. 2 weeks ago I ran a large group of pick up players the session ran smooth as silk. And that was with a total of 15 people. Most were over 16. Is it just a matter of maturity? Perhaps I should just nuke em all and go invite only as BJRN suggested. I dont know at this point. P.S: Oh yea I read the 101 worse players to have in your game topic on this board and was disturbed to realize I have all of them in one player or another and most display 20 or more of the charachteristics.
pha3drus 01-07-05, 11:48 PM	I definitely understand your dilema as I run a game for my fiance's younger brother and his friends. They all range in age from 12 to 16. At first i had some of the same issues where it was a "urination" contest as i read earlier in the post between the players. Sitting them down isn't always going to work. In my case I found the best way to referee was to start assigning experience penalties for out of alignment actions. when they started getting penalized 25-50% of the xp gained per session they started straightening up. No one wants to fall behind the group, especially when they're at that age. Now its only small problems and the normal issues that come from the younger players trying to roleplay and do problem solving. Not sure if this helps or not, but its just a suggestion for you :)
Dash Branaghan 01-08-05, 01:54 AM	*pulls the counselling hat out of the closet and brushes the dust off* Prepare for a bit of long-windedness here. These are based on my experiences dealing with people, notably kids. Any psych majors out there can feel free to correct any mistakes in my insights. The first thing that came to mind is that the kids come from crappy homes. I tend to find that kids that come from crappy homes who do not have someone they can talk to or have no positive role model in their life will invariably try to boost their own self-esteem at the expense of others. Give a group of kids from another family that is dysfunctional, and you have that target. The only way these kids can make themselves feel better is by pointing out that someone else is in worse shape than they are. Brothers defend brothers. And the thing about kids is...well, you can defend yourself against kids. You can't always defend yourself against your parents. Short of you becoming a counsellor to these kids, there is no way that you are going to be able to remedy the situations within the game alone. The game is not the problem; outside of the game is the problem. Taking the game away will not make a difference to them. They'll find some other place to go, or some other thing to do that keeps them out of the house or away from whatever pain they cannot lash out at. Now, I have no issue with your group size, but what these kids need is more focus. They need to be made to feel special, and they need someone that not only believes in them, but believes that they have value. Within game, this could translate to bonus XP for good ideas and positive reinforcement, but the problem with this is that making one kid look good in turns makes the other kids feel bad, and they have to take a shot at him to bring him down to their level or lower, just so they will feel better. Being adolescents, they aren't going to suddenly open up or break down and get better. What they need is one on one time, something like a Big Brother, who can act as a role model to them. What can you do? You say there are other adults who run games, but won't deal with these kids. Well, why not have different groups? I'm sure not all of the 11-21 kids are rejected by the other DMs, so take them on as their own little group. Obviously you care about the situation or you would have just told them to stop coming around, and you wouldn't be here asking for help if you didn't want to try to do something. Give them the one on one time, but break up the groups so they aren't cutting into each other. Talk to the other adults...I find it hard to believe that someone who plays D&D could not understand the feeling of being a pariah or outcast. But the important thing to realize is that any effort that you do put forth might be wasted. If you deal with these kids once or even twice a week for a couple of hours a time, you aren't going to be able to repair years of damage. If there are counselling facilities in your town, then you might want to consider turning the kids that way. They need to talk to someone. Of course, this is pocket assessment based on very little information and absolutely no first hand info at that. If I've hit on anything that might be close to accurate, you will probably recognize it. I hope this helps you somewhat. I'd help you out more if I could. Dash
ShadowDragon8685 01-08-05, 02:28 AM	Yeah. It sounds like these kids need a shrink... Or Child Services. This is simply an in-game manifestation of must deeper-lieing problems. And I have to agree 100% with Dash. Kids who come from dysfunctioning familes or no families/good role models and who have a problem feeling good about themselves, 92% of the time, they choose to find their good feelings by smearing others. This is a lot of the cause of bullying. The two groups of brothers thing should be hardly surprising. To quote the old Arab adage, "I against my brother, My brother and I against our father, us and our father against my uncle, and all against the outsider." Brothers will defend brothers. In all liklihood, what you need to do is get them to a counseling service, and / or call in the Child Services.
Aluroon 01-10-05, 01:49 PM	Hello all. I play in CyberDocs group (and no I do not fall into the above mentioned age category), and figured some info from a players standpoint might help some. For the most party CyberDoc like's to run in-depth role-playing campaigns, that also tend to have an epic scale to them. One the problems (other then the children’s home situation) is the fact that everyone wants to play a character with there own agenda and everyone wants to be in control, or criticize whoever is in control without offering any useful suggestions. Let me give you a brief bit of information on the last group we ran. One Half Celestial Cleric of Lathandor Neutral Good (aiming for Lawful Good) Two Human Bothers, both Fighters and Minor Nobles Chaotic Neutral One Sun Elf Wizard/Incantatar (Me) Neutral with good tendencies One Cleric/Wizard/True Nercomancer of Kelmvar (Very Badly Played) Neutral One Elf Druid (Badly Played) Chaotic Neutral One Dwarven Barbarian Chaotic Neutral (played Chaotic Stupid) One Dwarven Cleric of Morden Lawful Neutral One Elven Cleric of Corilian Sheet said Chaotic Good, played Chaotic Neutral One Human Ranger (Chaotic Good) And that’s just about half. As you can see, the problems in game are big enough, with so many Chaotic Neutrals, however when you average in the egos at the table, it gets very ugly very quickly. Many players favorite argument to justify there blindingly stupid actions is “I’m Chaotic Neutral”. The biggest problems I have seen relate to several of the players who appear to show up just to sit around and occasionally take an action of such blinding stupidity that we must all stand amazed. Such players love to sit doing nothing until combat starts, then get up to get a drink or some such just before there turn, then come back and spend several minutes trying to decided what to do, before asking which dice to roll. The sad part is most of these players have been at table for more then a year. At our latest session (last Saturday) Cyberdoc threatened several players with a ban. After that the game ran smoothly, although the same players who never do anything sat there doing nothing. It ran smoothly until the final couple of hours, when the personality conflicts, and as another here has said "******* Contests" Started again. I don't know if this will help you all render advice, but quite frankly I am sick of the current situation as well and have run out of ideas. Aluroon
Foxwood Bandersnatch 01-10-05, 08:57 PM	Hiyeh Doc, I have been GMing for a pretty long time but ,with my 2 boys, for only a few months (10 and 13). Gaming with these two is a comletely differant animal than gaming with my normal crowd (which is avg age 28). I would never have the younger players play with the older. Motivations, reasoning, expectations, and challenges will be perceived differantly by younger folks who havent the mental capacity , intelectual development , and/or the social skills to fully interact with you (the DM) and your campaign environment. Often this isnt because of any lack of IQ, but a lack Social experience .Interacting with your 10 other players serves only to show you this contrast in Maturity. Some of us seem to think this is an easy game to play, but it isnt. It's a unique social interactive experience . Playing DandD requires a-LOT of different cerebral skills , but the most important is probably simple-old-fashion-maturity . Being good to you neighbor ... golden rule ... not interupting ... ect . Often , young kids havent mastered these simple , yet ultimately nessecary , social graces (in life let alone at a game table) . Some never will . There is a reason no other Adults will run them . They dont Add to the game, rather the opposite . You have warnings and written statements . Now :) get a good breath and tell them they arent welcome at this time and why . Ban them for 6 months or more . Tell them there will be a probation IF you decide they might return (... you know ... consequences :weep: ) and hold them guns steady and sure when you fire. You may feel a bit high handed , but you are 'The Man' / aka GM / aka Master of your game . If you dont school them (in the name of your game!) , likely noone will , and you'll have more of the same .
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-10-05, 11:11 PM	Hey. English's not my first language, so please excuse the spelling mistakes and other stuff. I've worked as a counsellor (not sure of the term, I'm the adult who's responsible of a group of kids) a summer camp for the past 6 years. We have a special program for hyperactive kids (clinically hypers, the worst kind). One thing that work a lot with them is assigning them responsabilities. Those kids needs 3 things: discipline (not harsh discipline, the french word is encadrement, if anybody could translate it...), attention and they need to feel you take their opinions seriously (ie that they are not treated as kids (boy do that tick them off)). You could... 1): Take smaller groups. Large ghroups doesn't work well and favorise the creation of more than one wannabe-leader, who will then compete between them. 2): get yourself an assistant so that the kids will have something to day game-wise when another one gets the spotlight. 3): Give a few of them roles in your campain. If they each have the imression that THEY know an important secret of the game, they'll want to cooperate togheter to pool their knowledge (hopefuly). 4): Give them responsabilities. Take 3-4 of them (changing each game) and give them stuff to do. One could be the initiative tracker (usefull if you DM 11 PC), another the map-maker, another the miniatures responsible (as in, DM: I need an orc. Give me an orc mini), etc... 5): They crave attention. So, take care to spotlight each of them in a session. Each. That was my own 2 cents. I wish you luck and hope you won't give up on them.
DInDenver 01-10-05, 11:39 PM	Hi! I have DM'd similar groups. The first thing to try the hardest at is not letting them know how frustrated you are. The one that crave attention will lose motivation and either clam up or get needy. And the ones that like to stir stuff up will think that it was them that got to you. VegeMight is right on track. Find a way to give them something to do. With such a huge group it will be hard to find something, but it should be easier for the regulars and the mor promising players. If there is one or two that are real problems, ban them. I have only had to do it a couple times, But I have never regtretted it. Don't let on ebad apple spoil the bunch. these kids crave attention and if one kid gets more attention because of bad behavior, you could end up encouraging bad behavior. Also, if there are promising players, take them aside and inform them that they are not the ones on the fence. That will keep them in the game and give them a little shot of confidence. Finally, think about rotating GMs. from the description of the party. It sounds like your players have a pretty firm grasp on the game and the genre. Have them show you their adventure idea, and set aside enough sessions for them to run it. While they run, you can play their character and lead by example. Be sure to show the GM pro tem respect and play their character the way they SHOULD be played. If the never hear you say "But I am chaotic neutral" maybe they will lay off that excuse themselves. Finaly, if you really need a reboot. Start a nmew campaign, but direct their character creation. Inform them that they have to make heroic characters and that way there will e less chaotic neutral and a reason for them all to rescue the princess. When you have a druid, a cleric and a knight all in the same group. The real RP'ing motivations to do things are always going to bre in conflict, you have to draw the PCs together and force them into a situation where they have to cooperate... Anyways, keep the faith and good luck!
CJ1720 01-11-05, 02:54 AM	Hthe french word is encadrement, if anybody could translate it...) In English you're talking about structure. That's what you need -- a clear reward structure. You need less of punishing behavior you don't want, and more rewarding behavior you do want. Draw up a clear set of rules -- both in character and out of character -- that details the behavior you want -- No insulting of other players, for example. The emphasis here is on clarity and consistency. Basically, what you are saying to them is, "You do x, y happens. You decide. Your behavior will tell me what your decision is. I'll respect your choice." Reward points for the behavior you want and dock points for the behavior you don't want -- there should be few of these and reserved for things like arguing, fisticuffs, not knowing what's going on etc. Have a point store both in game and out. The characters can "buy" things with their points. The players can buy things, too. You run a store, so perhaps you have some excess inventory of small inexpensive items that the kids want. I don't know. Here are a few more principles to follow: Get the gaming group down to a more managable size. 11 to 21 is too difficult to supervise at one time. You won't be able to give the kids the attention they need. Right now they are competing with each other for your attention, which leads to acting out to get it. When they are anxious or disappointed or angry (because of the game or anything else in their lives) they act it out by doing what they do. The only way they know how to get attention is by being bad -- i.e. at their home the only attention they get is punishment, so they are asking for your attention by asking you to punish them. They know they are ruining the game, but they don't know what else to do. They want you to give them some structure, some punishment and some reward. Set limits for them and then hold them accountable for their behavior. Kids are very concrete and need immediate results from their behavior. The more you are the better they understand what is expected of them and the better they'll be able to make decisions. The key is letting them make decisions and holding them responsible for their decisions. You don't have to be harsh, but they have to be held responsible. Like someone else said -- put parts of the game in their hands. Assign some responsibilities including set up and clean up. The more they act like a team concerning all gaming tasks, the more they'll act like a team during the game. Let the game mechanics work for you. Notice when they are acting out and doing things they don't like. If it's when they aren't actively involved in the game, try and give them tasks -- "important" tasks for that time -- writing a song the bard sings, a tale the dwarf tells, drawing a picture of an important NPC etc. I hope this helps. Adolescents are great at figuring out what upsets you the most and giving it to you in spades. They'll push your buttons everytiime, but they don't really mean it. I hope this helps.
Paradisio 01-11-05, 03:10 AM	I hate to be negative, but honestly, I found younger players to be near impossible to DM. The game turns into a glorified halo most of the time, kill anything and each other. I banned evil alignments/Player Killing, and almost everyone quit, but with the few remaining I was able to accomplish something. When I banned only PKing, they just made/forced NPCs to do it for them. You are basically going to have to railroad them, or your going to be spending a lot of time rolling stats for every single person in the town that they will inevitably try to kill for not knowing something specific, not helping them, or wanting them to pay for that beer they bought. You are going to need to plan everything in advance, the whole campaign. I found when DMing younger players, no matter how often I tell them to go north, they just decide to go South, as if just to spite me.
Nalampus 01-11-05, 04:51 AM	Hey I DM for my kids and a friend of theirs, I'm new to it, but I've got some exp with dealing with children. Only point which I'd like to highlight and which was made several times in the above posts in a round - about way is the size of your group. I understand you've run large adult groups -- but kids are a completely different experience. Imo the kids are looking for attention, and that's not a bad thing (and you shouldn't look at it as a bad thing if you want to get through this) -- even the kids who wander off are looking for attention in their own way. If you consider that their home situations do not seem to foster an abundance of one - on - one attention ( I mean caring, understanding the childs point of view attention), and they are herded together in schools with classes of 30 or more kids in a room with one teacher; even if they go to church they're grouped in large numbers to be dealt with in the most efficient manner possible --- their behavior is not surprising. Kids need attention, not attention on the group, and not attention which they can't directly recieve, but one - on - one attention where they feel they're really being listened to. If they're not getting this elsewhere then you're going to have to supply it if you want to engage them in an intellectual activity like DnD. The longer they live without that, the more disillusioned they become and the harder they will be to reach in the long run. Smaller groups of 3 or 4 will allow you to spend this attention on their characters that they need. It will allow you to give a more in depth answer to every question they have, and it will allow you to spend more time discussing any individual idea and action they or their characters take. Basically it'll allow you to make more sustained eye contact during each conversation with each kid --they'll feel like they and their decisions mean more. Without this kind of attention, you're just crowd control and if they're already disillusioned with society then they're going to make this crowd control as difficult as possible. You have the potential to do a lot of good for a few kids, showing them how much fun the mind and imagination can be, but noone can do something that indepth for 20 kids at a time, at that point you just become a run - of - the - mill after school program. Either way GL to you and I applaud you efforts to not give up on this.
tackleberry 01-11-05, 05:31 AM	Pretty much everything i would advise has been mentioned in the above posts but one other thing i would ask is: what is motivating you to do this for a seamingly unappreciative bunch of kids? i used to work in a local youth club helping the less fortuante kids learn to DJ (my profession) nothing to do with rp but my motivation was simply to give these kids something they desperately wanted to learn. they had something to focus on and aim for. this is relevant to my point later on. if there is no common interest in fantasy i would assume the only reason they play is for the escapism element in rpg's - they can kick crap out of each other and vent their anger and frustrations by rolling dice and seeing their 'enemy' crumple beneath their superiority. we all want to escape from the crap in our lives - dnd gives us a few hours out every week. whatever your motivation, it is commendable that you take time out to teach these children the wonderful world of rpg and dnd in particular and all that it ahs to offer as a social and enjoyable passtime but you are ultimately locking horns with your players. obviously, to be optimistic, it would be hoped and not unreasonable to assume your motivation is to manifest harmony and cooperation about the gaming table. to show these children what we get out of dnd. you might hope to see the sets of brothers get along and for them to find that cooperation is more rewarding than conflict - maybe they need a common enemy where they need to get along to defeat it. run a side trek with just a few of the more diffcult players where they cannot rely on the other players to bail them out and they wont have the opportunity to leave the table as they are the focus throughout the game. this will give them: a) common ground, b) reason to cooperate or perish, c) attention and d) THEIR reward for what THEY did together and unaided. you could possibly do this by letting the other players know your intention and reason for doing the side trek for a couple of weeks. i am sure they will understand. it needs to be run over a couple of weeks as you will observe in the second week who remembered the story and goals and who is eager to resolve the scenario - who actually cares. i.e. who you are getting through to. i think they need targets, but they need to be the focus of the game. you can do this with the side trek suggestion, however it is possible when they return to the larger group, they might feel 'lost in the crowd' again and return to previous behaviour. in my experience with kids like this, they just want attention and to be noticed. to stand out in the crowd and feel important. this might be what they hope to gain from attending in the first place. either way, i commend you again on your determination to make this work - good luck :)
seagreenwitch 01-11-05, 09:20 PM	I have to say this right from the outset I applaude you on what you are tring to do with these children. It says a lot about your strength of charcter. They need someone they can look up to. Perhaps you could find a local counciler who is willing to devote some time volunteering and really help you out. All the suggestions you have received are absolutly marvoulous. Do not give up on them they are only acting out to gain your approval I have seen it over and over again with children who come from broken/disfunctional/abusive homes. They are lacking what they need at home and go else where to find it. There are a lot of smaller stores that give out cards that if you spend so much then you get so much off/ $$$ worth of merchindise perhaps you could start a program that allows them to get x-amount of points and it will give them some Dragon bucks to spend. It really really works. I would also take some of the older ones and give them lessons on how to GM and start getting them to help you out and by doing so giving them responsibilty(a lot never get the chance to help) giving them some set rules to work within of they will not be allowed to GM until they show you they can work with the others. It would teach them several things #1 How to work with other people #2 How to work within a set of rules #3 How to act in a leadership role Just to nmae a few with a little thought and planning you could be giving them life skills and have fun. But the biggest thing to them will be that you tried. I hope you succeed. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :clap: :w00t: :clap: :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :clap: :w00t: :clap:
Dash Branaghan 01-12-05, 01:43 AM	I've been puzzling this over in my head lately and I think I might have a suggestion that will work. Now, others have commented on group size, and like you, I don't think that it has to be as much of an issue as the potential it has. But...what about a co-DM? What if two or even three of you work together to form a large, well thought out campaign, and then when necessary, you can break the group up into smaller chunks for portional quests. If you look at it in terms of LOTR, it would be having a group of 4 hobbits, two men, one Gandalf, an elf and a dwarf and then having one human, one elf and one dwarf go one way, two hobits go another, and two more get kidnapped, while the Gandalf plays patty-cake with a Baalrog. The advantage here, if you are willing to consider it, is that it allows multiple simultaneous events, which handles the attention focus of the kids...instead of waiting for 10 people to go before them, they only have to wait for three, or they can even be dealt with simultaneously. The important thing I need to stress is the self-esteem issue which can only be rectified by the kids at the expense of someone else's self-esteem. If the campaign has restrictions (good alignment, work well with the group, everyone design their characters together to make the strongest most cohesive party possible), these might help. I don't normally care for restrictions myself, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the value in them. Then, if you and the DMs have time, sit down with the players individually, even if only for a few minutes, and laud what they have done. Point out the strengths and weaknesses, but show them that their oversights (if any) are nothing major. Of course, doing it this way is going to require a great deal of work on your part and the part of other DMs that may decide to assist you. But you already sound like you're putting in a lot of effort. Dash
CyberDoc 01-13-05, 08:14 PM	Thank you all for your advice. I am overwhelmed at the responses. I have sat daown and talked with them. Explaining things a bit more clearly to them as well as telling them my expectations with their behavior. So far it has seemed to work rather well. Somone asked what my reasons were for doing this. To put it simply I cant stand to see kids being pushed aside just because no one cares. I despise those who turn their backs on them and try my best to help where I can. I enjoy running games and with these guys I see a chane to help them out in small ways. It does get overwhelming at times but things are getting a bit better. Thank you all for your advice.
Maerdash 01-13-05, 08:55 PM	I dont really have any advice ias I have very little experience with this kind of problem but i do wanna say that i admire and respect what you are trying to do for these kids and wish you good luck in getting through to them
Vintar 01-14-05, 12:26 AM	I entirely concurr with Dash - try to find someone else to help. If nothing else - it would help with the grand type stuff Aluroon said you run. For example: To stop the BBEG the players need to reassemble an ancient powerful artifact whose pieces have been spread throughout the world for whatever reason. (Either BBEG did it or was done a long time ago because of its great power). However - time is limited. The group must seperate so that they can assemble the artifact in time. However - for the final battle with the BBEG they rejoin to beat him down. As well - I would consider disallowing Chaotic Neutral as well as evil - though in my own games I allow Chaotic Neutral (occasionally Lawful Evil) I think few if any young teens could play it well. (I am pretty darned sure that I wouldn't have been able to before age 14 or so - of course not sure since I didn't play then.)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-14-05, 02:33 AM	Since most of my advice has already been stated, that can wait til the end. I guess I'll start here and work my way down: Prepare for a bit of long-windedness here. These are based on my experiences dealing with people, notably kids. Any psych majors out there can feel free to correct any mistakes in my insights. Well, as long as I'm inivited, okay. First, the broken homes theory: It all nice and good for us to feel bad for poor underpriveleged kids. (Doc, what you're doing takes guts and the type of character that we can only pretend to have in our games.) But honestly, the last thing they need from us is our sympathy. Sitting here and whining about society and adondoned kids doesn't do them a lick of good. If you want to help them, get off your butt and do something! What CyberDoc is doing is an excellent start. As for the possibilities of disorders: Kids will be kids, and you know what that means: they are going to do dumb things. Me, well, when I was 10 I used to jump off the roof of our house. (I wanted to see if I could fly.) Kids do these things, it's perfectly normal, and normally they grow out of it, just relax and put the pills away. While we're on the topic of kids: I would never have the younger players play with the older. Motivations, reasoning, expectations, and challenges will be perceived differantly by younger folks who havent the mental capacity , intelectual development , and/or the social skills to fully interact with you (the DM) and your campaign environment. Often this isnt because of any lack of IQ, but a lack Social experience .Interacting with your 10 other players serves only to show you this contrast in Maturity. I think the term we're looking for here is puberty. Actually, what I suspect is going here is both a function of the brain and completely normal. Before a child enters adulthood, the centre for their cognitive thought is located lower in the second brain area -- in particular, the area of the brain that is credited for emotion. During puberty (approximately from ages 11 to 21, they do vary from child to child) the brain also experiences major growth spurts. Among the areas that grow tremdously (and most important to our discussion) is the area credited for logical thought. What this means is that chrilden, who have not yet become adults, base their decisions on more emotional reasoning than logical. As adults, we tend to think more logically. This difference between us and children often leads to confusion. Have a point store both in game and out. The characters can "buy" things with their points. The players can buy things, too. You run a store, so perhaps you have some excess inventory of small inexpensive items that the kids want. I don't know You can also try doing a search of these boards for "bob points". For more information on how the principle behind the above works, do an internet search on "token economy." It's more comonly used in instititions such as psychiatric hospitals and prisons, but also helpful elsewhere. Token economies are extremely effective. And while we're on the topic of Skinnerian psychology, I recommend using more positive reinforcement than negative. When you do, there is typically a smaller rate of extinction (when the desired behaviour is forgotten), and learning happens faster. Also, for best results, see if you can find a way of introducing a rewards system that rewards the desired behavour randomly. This is even more effective. (For proof, I point to the gambling. People are rewarded randomly with small amounts money (the positive reinforcement) for buying lotto tickets (the desired behavour).) And finally, splitting the group up into smaller groups: The only thing I would add here is that this is the perfect chance to teach some of the kids the art of DMing. Heaven knows we need more of them. You'll probably want an experienced DM (probably no older than 18-20) to help them design and run their first campaign/adventure.
Krag 01-14-05, 03:03 PM	me and you are almost in the same boat (grabs a paddle) i also run campagins with players age of 13-17 and one guy that is older than me i'm 32 i had the my chr is better than yours so they would make a car. then about 30 mins. into the game they would attack each other so i had fun with it i made attacks for them at each other then they wanted to know why. so i left a few pc's left and a mind controlling mind flayer pops out of a shadow need i say more?.... about a year later things are getting better but i did the other day have a players that said " i am the badest players in this game no one can take me" my a level 9 npc 4 sorcerer/3 cleric/2 PrC mystic thing from the DMG tosed a spell at him he as a level 2 drow ranger the rest of the party is level 6 after he was destoryed by a fire spell he said well i was the badest player here my reply yes you sure are that's why i killed you with a level 1 fire spell! the party hit the floor laughing. but as advice gose just tell them this is the way it WILL BE or find you another DM and lay down some rules i know it might make you sound like the bad guy/girl but we as DM's have enough on us like it is with out out pc base adding to it my 2 cents
scott644 01-14-05, 06:32 PM	ouch! You've inherited quite the mix of problems! As has been suggested above there are two things that definately need to happen to help this work out. First is, given the size of the group, you will want a co-DM. I know many who've done it, and if you coordinate a bit it's not only workable but fun. Second is, by what I'm reading these kids DO need some kind of therapy. I would recommend you kill two birds by bringing in a friendly lay-therapist (somebody who knows psychotherapy and uses it to help as a kind of for-free aside when it comes up - there's more around than you might suspect) to help as your co-DM. There's plenty such people around, and I don't know of very many therapists who wouldn't drool at the chance to actually help guide some kids through their troubles so they can grow up as functional adults - while having fun at the same time!
Dash Branaghan 01-14-05, 10:25 PM	Me, well, when I was 10 I used to jump off the roof of our house. (I wanted to see if I could fly.) And people say D&D doesn't have a bad influence. :D Just to let you know, the verbal component of Fly is neither "Cowabunga," "Geronimo," or screaming as the lawn approaches despite your best efforts. :D Dash
CyberDoc 01-16-05, 01:02 AM	As an update. I have split the group. I now have no more than 7 players per group. It sees to help alleviate alot of the problems and after some initial misgivings by the players is working rather well. Time will tell.
seagreenwitch 01-16-05, 03:23 AM	That is great you are having sucess but perhaps you should look into a co-Dm who has a background in (we can only hope) with roleplaying or is even willing to help out and learn. It would help you out and be really positive for them but that is just me as a note they quite often use play as therpy for small children. Just some studing I have done. Good Luck! :invasion:
Aluroon 01-19-05, 03:51 PM	As CyberDoc mentioned, we have split the group. I now run the older members of the group (that is to say those 13+), while he has taken over those that fall below said threshold, as well as a couple of the better older players we have. From what we have experienced so far, the split has gone rather well. Half of the party is now in Silverymoon, while the other half is deep underground in what is truly the world’s second largest dungeon. The interesting thing about it is one half of the group will learn, based on where they are (the worlds largest dungeon) of the BBEG's history and plans, while the other group will likely see the results of the plans coming to bear, but not know what is going on or who is causing it. Back on topic. The largest insight I have gathered from the last few months is the fact that a group of 12+ preteens/early teens is far more difficult to deal with then a group of 12+ young adults/adults. As it stands, with the group split in half, we accomplished more in 2 hours last session, then we had accomplished in the last three 8 hour games. Thank you all for all your advice. This should be it. Aluroon