Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Treymordin 06-30-06, 10:57 AM	Allow me to introduce my problem player. The guy refuses to do anything to help the party ever, (keep in mind this is a player and his characters reflect this). He mopes if he cant play an evil character and laughs even if his characters are not evil, he ends up screwing over the party. He has been playing the 3.0 version from the beginning but only 2 days ago decided to purchase a 3.5 PH. What is one to do with a player like this. I have had it. He is always doing things to screw his party over, like for instance, the group came to a door that they knew had orcs in it. They threw a rock to try to get some to come out, he decides to go and open the door. Another time, he decides to grapple the big crab in one of the early Eberreon modules, and eneded up naming a character, Ray Bovine. What to do?
Tormsskull 06-30-06, 11:05 AM	Talk to him out of game. Take him to the side and ask him what his fascination with being the bad guy is. Usually if you just speak in an adult manner to a player such as this, away from the group, they'll be cool with it. In an extreme situation, you could always have a curse set upon him called Bound Fate. should the person he is bound to die, he also dies. Kind of corney, but it gets the point across (plus, it doesn't work the other way. Should he die the person he is bound to is not affected in the slightest.)
Archmage Atrus 06-30-06, 11:10 AM	It sounds to me like you don't enjoy playing with this guy. Considering this is a game, enjoyment should be key. If the other members of the party dislike him, kick him to the curb I say. Shape up or ship out.
Borne Of Hate 06-30-06, 11:13 AM	I would let him do what he is doing...but be RELENTLESS. Kill him. Kill his party members. Kill them again. Do not single him out, but allow his ridiculous actions to get him in SERIOUS trouble. And when he askes why you are picking on him, tell him that you are not picking on ANYONE. You are just distributing consequenses for the actions of the party as a whole. He wont like the level loss and the party will begin to get frustrated with his actions. I had a DM that would help the PCs out of every dire situation. That is a very poor play style and it encourages the PCs to rely on the DM. I am not saying that is how you DM because I have no experience with you. However I am saying this: Offer them NO help whatsoever. If this doesnt work... BOOT HIM
kelvinaw273 06-30-06, 11:17 AM	Sounds like a classic Attention Getter. This strange breed of player thrives on being the centre of attention and will perform any foolish action if it will place him at said position of No. #1 focus of all attention. If he was any good at the game (or if the other players let him) he would gravitate up to the Party Pusher (also known as the PK Bully or the "Do as I say or else!" variety). The best way of dealing with this breed in the short term is for the party to let him do something stupid, then run away while he dies. In the long term, explain to him that he is really making everyone else miss out on their enjoyment of the game and that he might do better by (a) learning to play and (b) getting along and pulling his weight. If he refuses, polite ask him to leave.
Dan Hemmens 06-30-06, 11:20 AM	Or failing that, play Paranoia.
Bruunwald 06-30-06, 01:06 PM	Talking to him alone first is the best thing to do. Personally, though, I would not invest much hope of a fix beyond dismissing him from the game. I have had years and years of experience with problem players, some who were mild, some that would make yours look like Mother Theresa. None of them ever shaped up, no matter how much we pleaded, begged, threatened, kicked them out, no matter how many second chances they got, or how many times they promised never to do it again. A problem player is usually so because of some need in his personality to control, be the center of attention, disrupt, anger people, etc. A nice little chat isn't going to fix some deep-seeded compulsion in a bi-polar person. At any rate, consider yourself lucky. At least your guy is overt enough and honest enough about it to tell you he wants an evil character. We had somebody in our group for several years who masqueraded as a decent fellow, but would explode into selfishness and rotten behavior at the drop of a hat. Serious issues, that one had.
Bruunwald 06-30-06, 01:13 PM	I would let him do what he is doing...but be RELENTLESS. Kill him. Kill his party members. Kill them again. Do not single him out, but allow his ridiculous actions to get him in SERIOUS trouble. And when he askes why you are picking on him, tell him that you are not picking on ANYONE. You are just distriputing consequenses for the actions of the party as a whole. He wont like the level loss and the party will begin to get frustrated with his actions. I had a DM that would help the PCs out of every dire situation. That is a very poor play style and it encourages the PCs to rely on the DM. I am not saying that is how you DM because I have no experience with you. However I am saying this: Offer them NO help whatsoever. If this doesnt work... BOOT HIM "If this doesn't work...?" For heaven's sake, of course it won't work. I know you're "born(e) of hate," and all, but ruining the entire game and fudging the life out the rest of the players until everybody hates him as much as they hate the problem player is about the worst advice I could imagine a DM getting. The sole good advice in your post consisted of the last two words. Could've left it at that.
KJW 06-30-06, 03:14 PM	I agree do not punish a player for any reason, it is better to just boot the player. A DM is to be fair and impartial, even with the problem players. The only real solution is to try talking to them, but I agree with Bruunwald this is not likely to do anything, and then to ask them to leave. There is nothing wrong with dumping a problem player, once you learn how to do this you will have a better gaming group and a lot more fun.
Borne Of Hate 06-30-06, 03:14 PM	"If this doesn't work...?" For heaven's sake, of course it won't work. I know you're "born(e) of hate," and all, but ruining the entire game and fudging the life out the rest of the players until everybody hates him as much as they hate the problem player is about the worst advice I could imagine a DM getting. The sole good advice in your post consisted of the last two words. Could've left it at that. The way I see it Bruun is that (hopefully) everyone recognizes it as a game. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with helping a person learn from their mistakes and get better from it. What will he/she learn if you just boot him? Now I guess you should ask yourself this: "What is more important: giving a person a chance and helping them, or just getting rid of them all together?" You tell me which one is the better, more mature, and friendlier thing to do. Please... tell me
Borne Of Hate 06-30-06, 03:20 PM	AND. No one will 'hate' him if he learns from his mistakes. In fact, quite the contrary, people may learn to bond through the learning process. If your PCs have RL anger for IG actions than maybe you are gaming with the wrong people. I DM a game and someone (a good friend of mine) died last session and laughed as it happened because of his admitedly dumb mistake. No one got mad at him, and he learned from his mistake. Yeah he took some level loss, but he believes he deserved it, and I guarantee he will be less likely to do it again. He is now a better player and he will get better and better I promise you.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 06-30-06, 05:12 PM	[QUOTE=Bruunwald] A problem player is usually so because of some need in his personality to control, be the center of attention, disrupt, anger people, etc. A nice little chat isn't going to fix some deep-seeded compulsion in a bi-polar person. QUOTE] So is it your years and years of DMing experience that qualify you as a psychologist? And just how many years of DnD must one play to be able to recognise someone as Bi-Polar based on a less then 500 word discription made on an internet fourm? Or is it that all disruptive players are hopelessly bi-polar. Or maybe they are disruptive becuase they are bi-polar? Tell exactly when you came to that conclusion and how it was made. You don't by chance DM for the pysc ward in the hosbital do you? As for the coment about "worst advice ever". There is saying: "Free advice is worth what you pay for it." That would include yours, sweeping generalizations, agorance, not with standing. The OP, or any reader for that matter is free to disregard or follow anything at their discretion, and certain don't daddy Brunnwald to tell them who to listen and who not to. But then again I do disagree with you so there for I must be Bi-polar right?
Qmega 06-30-06, 05:13 PM	If he wants to fight a room full of orcs, let him. If the rest of the party wants to watch and see how it goes or if they decide to help him with "his room full of orcs" let them. The choice of doing something stupid should be the choice of each player and they should live or die by those choices. I've noticed that characters good, evil,or indifferent that do something dumb quite often pay for their mistakes. Let them play and let them get just what they've got coming good or bad.
KJW 06-30-06, 05:14 PM	The way I see it Bruun is that (hopefully) everyone recognizes it as a game. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with helping a person learn from their mistakes and get better from it. What will he/she learn if you just boot him? Now I guess you should ask yourself this: "What is more important: giving a person a chance and helping them, or just getting rid of them all together?" You tell me which one is the better, more mature, and friendlier thing to do. Please... tell me Well I will answer from my perspective. There are two types of serious problem players, first, the well meaning but clueless and, second, the selfish and disruptive. I agree that the former should be given a second chance and all that, but when you are dealing with the latter the better, mature, and friendlier thing to do is boot them. D&D is a group activity and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, especially the disruptive few. Why should everyone's enjoyment be at the expense of babysitting an immature and selflish player. Of the 30+ people I have played with over the years I have only had 4 or 5 of these selfish and disruptive players, and I have learned that it is best just to boot them. What we have here is a player who will play evil characters even when they are forbidden by the DM and takes enjoyment from ruining the game and setting up the other PCs for ruin. This is not well meaning but clueless, this is a player who likes ruining the game. I will tell you that once I learned to just drop problem players and follow my instincts in recruitment everything got better. I now have 5-7 players for my campaigns who are all great folks and we don't have any problems. By that I mean no problems, none. Seriously, life is too short to waste playing with people who are out to ruin everyone's fun for their own sick enjoyment.
Treymordin 06-30-06, 06:58 PM	We have tried talking to him about his actions and he doenst seem to care.
KJW 06-30-06, 07:29 PM	Well it seems you have two choices then, either make the decision as the DM that he is no longer wanted or put it up as a vote with the whole group. The first is under your control, but it forces you to be the one to make the decision. The second is out of your control, but then it is everyone's call. My suggestion is for you as DM to kick him out, this way you don't have to deal with a situation where he 'wins' the vote and then you have to deal with this all again later in a few weeks.
Toloran 06-30-06, 07:50 PM	We have tried talking to him about his actions and he doenst seem to care. Then he shouldn't care about being kicked from the group. =P Your job as the DM is first and foremost (besides having fun yourself) is to make sure ALL your players are having fun. If one player is being disruptive and ruining other peoples fun and (after politely talking to him about it) continues to do such, then you should by all means kick him from the group (expecially if you know he is annoying everyone else in the group). Ask KJW said, you have two options and both involve kicking him from the party. He doesn't seem to be bothering you per se, just bothering the party. Since this is the case, you should put it up to vote to the rest of the party (either as a group or talking to them individually and asking their opinion). No reason to be sneaky about it though. If you do have your group vote or are otherwise considering kicking him from the group, tell him. Tell him what you are going to do (or otherwise considering) and tell him why. If he gets angry and starts complaining (along the lines of "You won't let me play the character the way I want to!") then calmly suggest that he should find a DM that will. If he leaves of his own volition, then all the more the better. Now, if you give your group the decision, you have to abide by it. However, if after voting, he starts ruining YOUR fun too, then you have a new other options. DMs tend to give players a little slack. Fudging rolls one direction or the other, letting a player players redo things they didn't mean to (like "Didn't i mention i was looking for traps as i went?"). Don't give him any slack. Don't be overly obvious about it though. He'll probably leave after his character keeps dying from all the stupid things he does. :)
Bruunwald 06-30-06, 08:03 PM	[QUOTE=Bruunwald] A problem player is usually so because of some need in his personality to control, be the center of attention, disrupt, anger people, etc. A nice little chat isn't going to fix some deep-seeded compulsion in a bi-polar person. QUOTE] So is it your years and years of DMing experience that qualify you as a psychologist? And just how many years of DnD must one play to be able to recognise someone as Bi-Polar based on a less then 500 word discription made on an internet fourm? Or is it that all disruptive players are hopelessly bi-polar. Or maybe they are disruptive becuase they are bi-polar? Tell exactly when you came to that conclusion and how it was made. You don't by chance DM for the pysc ward in the hosbital do you? As for the coment about "worst advice ever". There is saying: "Free advice is worth what you pay for it." That would include yours, sweeping generalizations, agorance, not with standing. The OP, or any reader for that matter is free to disregard or follow anything at their discretion, and certain don't daddy Brunnwald to tell them who to listen and who not to. But then again I do disagree with you so there for I must be Bi-polar right? Are you high? Did you really get to where you got from what I wrote, or did you get it out of a pipe? Look, I stated that I had years of experience with problem players. I also stated that I had given all of them many chances and had talks with all. My experience is that it never did any good. I don't recall saying that anybody who didn't agree with me was bi-polar. I do remember saying that a simple chat won't fix a bi-polar person. But since I named no names and I didn't say who was bi-polar or if the person I was referring to had been diagnosed, it's a huge leap for you to make the conclusions you did. For all you know, one of my problem players was a diagnosed bi-polar. For all you know, I was. As to bad advice, Borne's advice was just terrible. Somebody had to say something about it. Yes, he's right, hopefully everybody knows it's a game. But wasting entire parties to get to the point where one guy "gets it" is bound to make the others resentful, and is simply wasteful of all the time and effort the DM puts into creating his world.
Reversefigure4 06-30-06, 08:27 PM	I can't imagine his characters would last in the party. Unless they are together on the orders of some higher authority, why are the other player's characters happy to travel with somebody who is at best unhelpful and at worse actively trying to get them killed. Why aren't they booting him? If you don't want to talk to him out of game (by far the best method, try these steps in game). Step 1: Ban evil characters. I assume you've probably already done this. Step 2: Ban neutral characters, and only allow Good PCs. Step 3: Any PCs who betray the party, refuse to help them, etc, take an alignment shift. Step 4: When a PC is no longer Good, he becomes an NPC. Consequence: When he acts like an ass, he can't play his character anymore.
Milandros 06-30-06, 09:29 PM	OK, all clever plots aside, there is only one possible positive outcome - the player reforms and becomes a team player so everyone can have fun - and one neutral outcome - the group as a whole asks the problem player to leave, stating that they simply don't have fun with him playing and would like to play a more co-operative game. Every other option makes even more people unhappy. I am assuming here that the rest of the group has a similar problem with him. If they think he's great and cool, then you probably either have to go with the flow or, if you're having no fun, get someone else to DM instead. Trying for a positive outcome, then, there are not that many options I can think of. The first is of course, solution number one - ironically usually tried last, as it's the one that tends to actually work or rare occasions (though by no means all) - and that's to talk to him, politely and non-confrontationally. If one or two other players talk to him separately as well, it would probably push the message home. Assuming that doesn't work, then you need to do something to negatively re-inforce his behaviour, to try to train him out of it. When he wants to play the arrogant loner, let him - then when he goes off to do his own thing, focus on the main party instead. If his actions get him less attention rather than more, he'll avoid leaving the group. When he betrays or harms the party, suggest - quietly - to the rest of the players that they not go along with it "just because he's a player". They wouldn't with an NPC, after all. When he gets dumped by the party and is left sitting by the side of the road - or bleeding by the side of the road - then let him roll up a new character, but don't find any way to introduce the new character for a few hours. The negative experience will either clean him up, drive him to new heights of obnoxiousness (in which cae you decline to play with him) or make him leave. It's not a good solution - talking to him and him responding would be a good solution - but in a case like this, there really aren't any good solutions.
Archmage_Vall 06-30-06, 09:38 PM	Talk to him about it out of game and without the other players around. Let him know that the game is supposed to be fun for ALL the players, and the DM, not just him. And that the way he's playing his character is ruining everyone else's fun. If that doesn't work, use the +5 DM Boots of Annoying Player Removal, which are the DM equivalent of a hammergun.
BRJN 07-01-06, 12:21 AM	If he is disrupting play and has the other players (plus you) mad at him, maybe it is time to invite him out of the group. If he just HAS to be evil, he has got to expect something like this to happen sooner or later.
Treymordin 07-01-06, 11:38 AM	He has been playing this game since 3.0 and the learning curve from all of the stupid things he has done is not existant, more like a flat line.
Milandros 07-01-06, 11:48 AM	Then it's time to discuss with the other players if they still want him in the group.
Witchblade 07-01-06, 12:00 PM	Then it's time to discuss with the other players if they still want him in the group. Exactly. If they don't, boot him. If they do, let him, but don't help him. He should suffer the consequences of his actions (like everyone should, BTW).
Crust 07-01-06, 12:04 PM	I would tell him, at the gaming table, while everyone is there, that his behavior is disruptive to the game, and that it's unacceptable at the gaming table. Tell him straight up, if he doesn't shape up, he's not welcome at the table. Put your foot down. It will show him and your other gamers that you mean buisness. Don't give him a chance to argue, either. This is your game, your show, and they're your rules. If he can't respect that, he's not worthy. If he butts heads with you, then it's clear that he's playing to be a jerk and push buttons, and that's clearly unacceptable. If a player is being disruptive in any way, get rid of him. If he's your friend, he'll understand and shape up. If not, you don't want that person at the table anyway.
Treymordin 07-01-06, 05:44 PM	Thank you for your advice, all of you, it is most welcome and you make some very valid points.
Treymordin 07-05-06, 10:51 AM	I talked to the guy, he told me to F Off, so I told him the next time when of his characters die that is it, he is not to roll back in.
deafbymetal 07-05-06, 11:05 AM	I talked to the guy, he told me to F Off, so I told him the next time when of his characters die that is it, he is not to roll back in. Wait a sec- you spoke with the guy and e told you to f*@k off- and the next time he plays...? My advice is not to let him play. Period. If you tried to explain to him what you have told us here, and his reply was to go screw yourself, why in god's name would you invite him back?
cambric 07-05-06, 11:07 AM	I talked to the guy, he told me to F Off, so I told him the next time when of his characters die that is it, he is not to roll back in. Wait...he told you to "F OFF" and you're still letting him return??? Man, you're too nice. I'm a pretty laid back guy, but if any of my players said that to me, I would smile and say, "you're done now...don't bother to return. As for your character, well..." then come up with something that would totally shock him and let it go. Bruun: I respect your comments, I couldn't have agreed more. You never said he was bi-polar, you just gave examples. When you have played with many different types of players, styles, attitudes, you do become a minor psycologist. Cam
Treymordin 07-06-06, 12:19 PM	But if I threw him out I wouldnt be able to kill his dumb character one more time. Tee hee tee hee.