Advice needed on magic/level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice needed on magic/level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Swiss619
03-26-05, 01:19 PM I played AD&D 2nd edition years ago, but the group I played with stopped playing because our personal lives were becoming hectic and no one had the time. Well, last year we re-started, this time with 3.5. Our old DM didn't want to DM anymore, and I was the only one willing to take his place so we would still have a game every week to play.

When asking for feedback with the first 3 month long adventure I ran, the PCs liked it, but there were 2 complaints that seemed universal: I was giving out too much gold and the magic items were over-powering the party.

When I started my most recent adventure, I wasmuch more careful about the GP given out, but am stillnot sure what to do about magic items.

The chart in the DMG about town GP limits is useful for rich PCs who want to get their masterwork weapons enchanted by alocal mage's guild, but what about what they find?

What sorts of stuff is good for a party of a given level? Is there a rule of thumb I've missed? IE I know a 4th level Fighter shouldn't find a +4 Greatsword, but what +# is appropriate? 1-2? Too low?
FG-Stewie
03-26-05, 01:32 PM I feel your pain. It is easy to figure out how much gold the party should have but it gets tricky when you're dealing with items, especially magic ones. The basic rule of thumb for me, and this is from a good deal of experience, goes that for level 1 you should give out a magic weapon after a boss fight. By level 3 or 4 everyone should have a +1 weapon or a couple of +1 armours. Level 5 bring in +2 then level 8 bring in +4 then level 12 go for a +5 and continue like that (obviously throwing in a really powerful artifact or something when the PCs are in the highest levels).

Hope that helps. Also, the character wealth level table in the DMG is a good place to look just to make sure the PCs are on the right track.
ShadowDragon8685
03-26-05, 01:38 PM I like you.

For once, you're an old-timer who hasen't complained about the magic in 3.5. It's REQUIRED that players have Magic in 3.5. They will be slaughtered if they don't. And no, a +1 Dagger at level 10 does not cut it. (Actually knew a DM who thought a +1 dagger should be the culmination of a major quest.)

If the party is feeling overpowered, I can't help you on that basis alone. They could simply be feeling overwhelmed compared to what they had back in AD&D 2e. Could you post the levels/classes/races they had at the end of that game, and the equipment they all had?
Swiss619
03-26-05, 01:47 PM Unfortunitalty I don't have the sheets anymore. None of us ever go abck to charactor we've played previously. Once the adventure is done (typically 6 months or so with this group, sometimes longer) we roll new ones and start anew.

BTW - Thanks for the advice, Stewie.

One more question, though: What about shops? Suppose they go to a big town (High GP limit) and can afford a weapon and/or enchantment thats beyond what they should have? Should they be able to buy it? (It seems cruel to give them money and not let them spend it.) Should I just tell them they can't find it? (Sorry, I just sold out of those..)
GSHamster
03-26-05, 01:55 PM Encourage them to take the Craft Items feats and make their own magic items. I find that tends to balance out what I give them.

As for shops, what I do is let them buy anything priced 2000gp and below (mostly because there's a nice table in the DMG--3.0, not sure about 3.5--that lists all these items). More powerful items have to be found, made, or searched for in a quest.
Swiss619
03-26-05, 01:56 PM But an example ofmy over-powering them (one I in retrospectfeels tupid formaking):

I gave a 2nd level Barbarian a +2 Glaive, not tomention too much money. He then found a hige town, and proceeded to have the mage's guild placea few enchantments on it which made it effectively a +5. At 2nd level.

Now, that's obviouslymymost extreme example of a lapse of higher brain functions, but still.
ShadowDragon8685
03-26-05, 02:00 PM Yeeeaaaaaah, that was a bit of a lapse, there. :)

Anyway, as far as letting them buy things go, I prefer heavy magic campaigns where the world is literally awash in magic stuff, at least in the smaller doses. You'll find a +1 goblin-cleaver in about one out of twenty peasent shacks, and yes, you CAN walk into M-Mart and pick up stuff up to +3. Chances are unless you're looking for a specific combo (Like a Shocking +1 Halberd of Frost,) you can find it there. The rest can be made on comission, such as the aforementioned frosty lightning halberd

Plus, doing magic-marts gives you opportunity to roll up gads and gabs of magic off the treasure tables. I LIKE rolling on those tables, damnit! :P
Alynn
03-26-05, 02:02 PM Personally, I've found if you stick semi closely to the wealth per level chart, you will give out exactly as much magic as they need. This counts for gold as well, remember that liquid assets (gold) is still wealth, so if you give them so much gold that they can afford somthing stronger than what they should have, you are well beyond the wealth per level chart.

Personally, every 3 or so levels I audit the char sheets and check how much I've given them, adding full value of hte magic items they are using, half for the ones they are going to sell, then mundane items, I don't coun't potions and the like because these are usable, and are not part of complete wealth, but in my mind are resources. I then see who has too much value, and who has too little, then tailor the treasures a bit toward those that are lacking, or if they are all below quota, they will make a bit more the next time out.

Right now, my party is about 800 exp from level 3, and if they elect to help the ghost and the blink dogs with the displacer beasts. They will get their first taste of magic items (from the corpse of the ghost ranger that asks for help to begin with).

But I have noticed, that when playing 3.5 magic is part of the game, much larger than it was before, and if you haven't played in awhile, it does seem like you are getting too much, but lower the amount of magic, and have them fight the correct EL's and CR's and they will end up begging for magic, because it's needed.
ShadowDragon8685
03-26-05, 02:06 PM You mean like that story of the party that not even the barbarian could do any damage to the monster, because the DM was too stingy with his magic, and as a result at level 8+ they had only Masterwork, which was insufficient to deal damage to DR 20/Magic.

Yeeah. It's like that, yo.
Lord Ian Stark
03-26-05, 02:18 PM You mean like that story of the party that not even the barbarian could do any damage to the monster, because the DM was too stingy with his magic, and as a result at level 8+ they had only Masterwork, which was insufficient to deal damage to DR 20/Magic.

Yeeah. It's like that, yo.

Not saying all groups have a spellcaster but Magic Weapon is 1st level spell.
ShadowDragon8685
03-26-05, 02:24 PM And how many people prepare it at 8th level?

Honestly, if you don't have magic, you're going to severely tip the balance of power in favor of the spellcasters and the monsters with SU and SP abilities.
Dreaming_in_the_void
03-26-05, 03:04 PM One more question, though: What about shops? Suppose they go to a big town (High GP limit) and can afford a weapon and/or enchantment thats beyond what they should have? Should they be able to buy it? (It seems cruel to give them money and not let them spend it.) Should I just tell them they can't find it? (Sorry, I just sold out of those..)

Download the Web Enhancement for the DMG. It covers building towns by section and will give you a pretty good idea of what you can find in a particular district of a city or town. You still have to decide, ultimately, whats there, but its a good guideline.

If they "should not have it" you can either rule that the materials needed/processes required aren't known by a particular tradesman (The quest to bring him the whatzit or the book explaining how to make the whatzit can take a while, and when they get back a few levels higher, it will be appropriate to give them the thing they shouldn't have had previously.) or you can simply apply economic principles of supply, demand, and roguish b*st*rds. Greed is good for leveling the playing field.

Bandit 1: "Hey, that party of 4th level characters has a +4 sword!!"
Bandit 2: "They certianly can't defend it and we're stronger, lets go take it!!"
Vatras
03-26-05, 07:00 PM Here are some guidelines:

- There are no mage guilds who enchant other peoples items by spending their XP. This will lead to the PCs having everything and better than what they find (thats one of my errors).
- An appropriate number of plusses is about +1/4 levels, although many hand them out sooner (I would not recommend going below +1/3 levels; remember that pre-epic +5 is maximum).
- If something has a magical ability it should be one level of power below the party (if they can do 3rd level spells, dont hand out things doing more than 2nd level).
- There are no magic shops with an assortment fresh out of the DMG.

These guidelines will mostly assure that the PCs are not over-equipped. The enchanting of items by NPCs is a difficult problem and it is safest not to introduce commercial enchanters (this ties in with general NPC level in the world and how many XP they have). Players invariably will try to enchant their favorite items further, which in turn will make all found loot pale in comparison (this is not as much of a problem, if the PCs pay the XP, but getting this just for gold is a big one).
Although some will disagree, it is better to be stingy than to be in the tradition of Monty Haul.
Lina_Inverse
03-27-05, 12:08 AM check the dmg charts,that gives you a good estimate of what kind of wealth is approriete.
always make sure the pcs can have approriete CUSTOMIZED gear.the dmg assumes that wealth is perfectly fit to your charecter.a +3keen sword is not worth the cash to a lvl9 fighter with improved crit.a +5mace isnt worth much to a lvl20 cleric or any level 20 charecter.
remember to give out multible types of gear as costs are exponentiol.a +1armor +1weapon and +1ring of protection cost less than a +2 weapon,and are prolly better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiss619 03-26-05, 01:19 PM	I played AD&D 2nd edition years ago, but the group I played with stopped playing because our personal lives were becoming hectic and no one had the time. Well, last year we re-started, this time with 3.5. Our old DM didn't want to DM anymore, and I was the only one willing to take his place so we would still have a game every week to play. When asking for feedback with the first 3 month long adventure I ran, the PCs liked it, but there were 2 complaints that seemed universal: I was giving out too much gold and the magic items were over-powering the party. When I started my most recent adventure, I wasmuch more careful about the GP given out, but am stillnot sure what to do about magic items. The chart in the DMG about town GP limits is useful for rich PCs who want to get their masterwork weapons enchanted by alocal mage's guild, but what about what they find? What sorts of stuff is good for a party of a given level? Is there a rule of thumb I've missed? IE I know a 4th level Fighter shouldn't find a +4 Greatsword, but what +# is appropriate? 1-2? Too low?
FG-Stewie 03-26-05, 01:32 PM	I feel your pain. It is easy to figure out how much gold the party should have but it gets tricky when you're dealing with items, especially magic ones. The basic rule of thumb for me, and this is from a good deal of experience, goes that for level 1 you should give out a magic weapon after a boss fight. By level 3 or 4 everyone should have a +1 weapon or a couple of +1 armours. Level 5 bring in +2 then level 8 bring in +4 then level 12 go for a +5 and continue like that (obviously throwing in a really powerful artifact or something when the PCs are in the highest levels). Hope that helps. Also, the character wealth level table in the DMG is a good place to look just to make sure the PCs are on the right track.
ShadowDragon8685 03-26-05, 01:38 PM	I like you. For once, you're an old-timer who hasen't complained about the magic in 3.5. It's REQUIRED that players have Magic in 3.5. They will be slaughtered if they don't. And no, a +1 Dagger at level 10 does not cut it. (Actually knew a DM who thought a +1 dagger should be the culmination of a major quest.) If the party is feeling overpowered, I can't help you on that basis alone. They could simply be feeling overwhelmed compared to what they had back in AD&D 2e. Could you post the levels/classes/races they had at the end of that game, and the equipment they all had?
Swiss619 03-26-05, 01:47 PM	Unfortunitalty I don't have the sheets anymore. None of us ever go abck to charactor we've played previously. Once the adventure is done (typically 6 months or so with this group, sometimes longer) we roll new ones and start anew. BTW - Thanks for the advice, Stewie. One more question, though: What about shops? Suppose they go to a big town (High GP limit) and can afford a weapon and/or enchantment thats beyond what they should have? Should they be able to buy it? (It seems cruel to give them money and not let them spend it.) Should I just tell them they can't find it? (Sorry, I just sold out of those..)
GSHamster 03-26-05, 01:55 PM	Encourage them to take the Craft Items feats and make their own magic items. I find that tends to balance out what I give them. As for shops, what I do is let them buy anything priced 2000gp and below (mostly because there's a nice table in the DMG--3.0, not sure about 3.5--that lists all these items). More powerful items have to be found, made, or searched for in a quest.
Swiss619 03-26-05, 01:56 PM	But an example ofmy over-powering them (one I in retrospectfeels tupid formaking): I gave a 2nd level Barbarian a +2 Glaive, not tomention too much money. He then found a hige town, and proceeded to have the mage's guild placea few enchantments on it which made it effectively a +5. At 2nd level. Now, that's obviouslymymost extreme example of a lapse of higher brain functions, but still.
ShadowDragon8685 03-26-05, 02:00 PM	Yeeeaaaaaah, that was a bit of a lapse, there. :) Anyway, as far as letting them buy things go, I prefer heavy magic campaigns where the world is literally awash in magic stuff, at least in the smaller doses. You'll find a +1 goblin-cleaver in about one out of twenty peasent shacks, and yes, you CAN walk into M-Mart and pick up stuff up to +3. Chances are unless you're looking for a specific combo (Like a Shocking +1 Halberd of Frost,) you can find it there. The rest can be made on comission, such as the aforementioned frosty lightning halberd Plus, doing magic-marts gives you opportunity to roll up gads and gabs of magic off the treasure tables. I LIKE rolling on those tables, damnit! :P
Alynn 03-26-05, 02:02 PM	Personally, I've found if you stick semi closely to the wealth per level chart, you will give out exactly as much magic as they need. This counts for gold as well, remember that liquid assets (gold) is still wealth, so if you give them so much gold that they can afford somthing stronger than what they should have, you are well beyond the wealth per level chart. Personally, every 3 or so levels I audit the char sheets and check how much I've given them, adding full value of hte magic items they are using, half for the ones they are going to sell, then mundane items, I don't coun't potions and the like because these are usable, and are not part of complete wealth, but in my mind are resources. I then see who has too much value, and who has too little, then tailor the treasures a bit toward those that are lacking, or if they are all below quota, they will make a bit more the next time out. Right now, my party is about 800 exp from level 3, and if they elect to help the ghost and the blink dogs with the displacer beasts. They will get their first taste of magic items (from the corpse of the ghost ranger that asks for help to begin with). But I have noticed, that when playing 3.5 magic is part of the game, much larger than it was before, and if you haven't played in awhile, it does seem like you are getting too much, but lower the amount of magic, and have them fight the correct EL's and CR's and they will end up begging for magic, because it's needed.
ShadowDragon8685 03-26-05, 02:06 PM	You mean like that story of the party that not even the barbarian could do any damage to the monster, because the DM was too stingy with his magic, and as a result at level 8+ they had only Masterwork, which was insufficient to deal damage to DR 20/Magic. Yeeah. It's like that, yo.
Lord Ian Stark 03-26-05, 02:18 PM	You mean like that story of the party that not even the barbarian could do any damage to the monster, because the DM was too stingy with his magic, and as a result at level 8+ they had only Masterwork, which was insufficient to deal damage to DR 20/Magic. Yeeah. It's like that, yo. Not saying all groups have a spellcaster but Magic Weapon is 1st level spell.
ShadowDragon8685 03-26-05, 02:24 PM	And how many people prepare it at 8th level? Honestly, if you don't have magic, you're going to severely tip the balance of power in favor of the spellcasters and the monsters with SU and SP abilities.
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-26-05, 03:04 PM	One more question, though: What about shops? Suppose they go to a big town (High GP limit) and can afford a weapon and/or enchantment thats beyond what they should have? Should they be able to buy it? (It seems cruel to give them money and not let them spend it.) Should I just tell them they can't find it? (Sorry, I just sold out of those..) Download the Web Enhancement for the DMG. It covers building towns by section and will give you a pretty good idea of what you can find in a particular district of a city or town. You still have to decide, ultimately, whats there, but its a good guideline. If they "should not have it" you can either rule that the materials needed/processes required aren't known by a particular tradesman (The quest to bring him the whatzit or the book explaining how to make the whatzit can take a while, and when they get back a few levels higher, it will be appropriate to give them the thing they shouldn't have had previously.) or you can simply apply economic principles of supply, demand, and roguish bstrds. Greed is good for leveling the playing field. Bandit 1: "Hey, that party of 4th level characters has a +4 sword!!" Bandit 2: "They certianly can't defend it and we're stronger, lets go take it!!"
Vatras 03-26-05, 07:00 PM	Here are some guidelines: - There are no mage guilds who enchant other peoples items by spending their XP. This will lead to the PCs having everything and better than what they find (thats one of my errors). - An appropriate number of plusses is about +1/4 levels, although many hand them out sooner (I would not recommend going below +1/3 levels; remember that pre-epic +5 is maximum). - If something has a magical ability it should be one level of power below the party (if they can do 3rd level spells, dont hand out things doing more than 2nd level). - There are no magic shops with an assortment fresh out of the DMG. These guidelines will mostly assure that the PCs are not over-equipped. The enchanting of items by NPCs is a difficult problem and it is safest not to introduce commercial enchanters (this ties in with general NPC level in the world and how many XP they have). Players invariably will try to enchant their favorite items further, which in turn will make all found loot pale in comparison (this is not as much of a problem, if the PCs pay the XP, but getting this just for gold is a big one). Although some will disagree, it is better to be stingy than to be in the tradition of Monty Haul.
Lina_Inverse 03-27-05, 12:08 AM	check the dmg charts,that gives you a good estimate of what kind of wealth is approriete. always make sure the pcs can have approriete CUSTOMIZED gear.the dmg assumes that wealth is perfectly fit to your charecter.a +3keen sword is not worth the cash to a lvl9 fighter with improved crit.a +5mace isnt worth much to a lvl20 cleric or any level 20 charecter. remember to give out multible types of gear as costs are exponentiol.a +1armor +1weapon and +1ring of protection cost less than a +2 weapon,and are prolly better.