Post/Author/DateTime	Post
denner 10-29-07, 08:41 PM	Im running a campaign, and have played for about 17 x 4-6 hours now. The players just got lvl 8, but the last 4-5 times we played, some of the players dont feel that their characters are needed in the group. The group has: 1 Fighter (Greatsword, and plenty of nasty feats to boost damage from that sword) 1 Monk(Going for Vow of Poverty) 1 Mystic(New to the game, but doing okey) 1 Rogue(Has alot of skills, but for some reason never have the skills needed at the time, picklock, ums...) 1 Bard(Walking library) Problem Im trying to make games, where all characters get their time to shine. They all love to roleplay, but for some reason when ever there is a combat, most of the players just become abit sad. The fighter is taking alot of damage and dealing even more, he hits for over 30 points of damage more than the monk. The problem with this is that when im designing games, i have to put in some pretty hard monsters in order for it to be a challenge (i do use the CL-system). But only the fighter has a change against the monsters, rest of the characters get hit 2-3 times and they go down, and they do so little damage on the monsters that its hardly notest. We have like 3-5 combats doing a 6 hour game, so not like its only hack&slach. I talked to them about this last sesson, but i cant seem to find a way to fix it. I could ask the fighter to "redo" his character abit, but his current character isnt even min/maxed, its just a normal figher with a greatsword. How do i fix my game, so all players feel needed and wanted?
fatal error 10-29-07, 08:52 PM	Couple ways. 1) Use an encounter system where there is one main baddie that can slug it out with the Fighter, and several lesser monsters that the rest of the party can fight. 2) Remake the Fighter's character. I see you tried that. 3) Remake the other characters. Well, don't entirely remake, but try to assess why they're not competent in combat. What is making the Rogue not a good flanking partner/Sneak Attack source to go along with the Fighter? What is making the Monk not feel competent in combat. Maybe through in monster the Monk can take out especially well, like a Spellcaster (high saves will save the monk) behind a wall of mooks (tumble and fast speed will allow him to reach the caster) and low hit points (low damage will still matter). What is making the Bard not live up to his, admittedly limited, combat potential? He can sing, yes, that is boring. How about some spells to aid his allies. A Grease under the enemies, etc. I've had trouble trying to figure out what a Bard can do proactive in combat, you might check the CharOp boards for some ideas as to how to let the Bard open up a bit more in combat. Once assessed, see if there is an easy way to fix the problems causing the characters to not be effective in combat. It could be as easy as a few magic item changes, or maybe a swap of a feat or two.
denner 10-29-07, 09:05 PM	1) Use an encounter system where there is one main baddie that can slug it out with the Fighter, and several lesser monsters that the rest of the party can fight. I tried, but the fighter loves his cleave feat, so he just kill all small onces first 2) Remake the Fighter's character. I see you tried that. Have not tried this yet, may become my last hope, its just that he didnt even min/maxed his character, he is just playing him well in combats. 3) Remake the other characters. Well, don't entirely remake, but try to assess why they're not competent in combat. This one i will be think on. Ill post their character sheets later. What is making the Rogue not a good flanking partner/Sneak Attack source to go along with the Fighter? The rogue is a Kender (small), so that 1d4 damage with his little weapon. They combated alot of undeads and other stuff that u cant sneak attack in the lower levels, and now when he finaly gets into sneak attack postion it do actualy works :) The monk uses his high speed alittle to good at some times, flanking and stuff, but then when the fight starts its a furry of misses. Oh and i HATE his stuning fists, the have taken out monsters i put their to scare them off thanks to that god damn stun. Guess the main problem in combat is that the fighter is doing to much damage, and can take alot (just as a fighter should be), but the others cant. The bard has, in the last couple of games, finaly realized that he is not a great fighter, and he has started to to use his music/spells pretty good to boost to others, but then the fighter do even more damage. Like i said i will post the character sheets later, then we can see if we can fix this.
Rood_Inverse 10-29-07, 10:36 PM	Describe the types of encounters you're running. What monsters? What terrain? What tactics? Is it straight out of a module, where certains character builds are expected (ie, a rogue with 11+ ranks in disable device)? If your characters are mid-level, they might have a reputation. A BBEG might goad the mighty fighter into a one-on-one while he lets the minions deal with the lessers in the party. The idea works well if the fighter has a chip on his shoulder and the BBEG fighter has a bigger one. They square off, leaving the rest of the field open for everyone else. The bard seems to be fixing himself... Learning to cast spells and whatnot. Let's leave him be. What about the rogue? Why throw the party against undead? The rogue can't shine there in combat, at all. It voids his real damage-dealing capacity. He needs to work with another person in the party, for example: Have him stand behind (and flank) an enemy, with the other player making a trip attack, as the kender kneels behind. That has to be worth a bonus or two. He also should re-evaluate his skills. Where's he spent them. But... You also need to review his skills and set up a place for him to shine, either combat or trap-springing (is he a backstabber or a skills monkey). But you also have to put stuff in front of him to do. Even while he's a rogue, if he's not a lockpicking rogue, and you're putting locks in front of him to pick, you foiling him. Check his skills list. There's no need to complain about the monk. He's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Monks are a tactical bunker buster. Peg the bad guys in the back so the front lines can't be reinforced. Yea, flurry can come up a big set of misses. Remind him that monks aren't all about flurry: trips and grapples are pretty hot, too. Maybe his odds on those are better than his odds on a flurry. That's... All I've got for now... can't think straight anymore. Hope this helps. I'll check back tomorrow to see if you've some answers to these issues.
dknight100 10-29-07, 11:26 PM	Generic advice for your encounters would be to try out things that don't rely on direct damage - for example, a highly defensive opponent who's AC comes primarily from armour (or perhaps from the spells Shield and Mage Armour, if you don't want the fighter to get his mits on sweet AC loot that noone else will want). The fighter will have a hard time hitting him, but the opponent will be made easier if the monk uses trip (prone target takes -4AC VS. Melee). This will hopefully make the party work as a team, rather than a 4 people who happen to be attacking mutual enemies.
denner 10-29-07, 11:26 PM	Its not me complaining its the players (well not the fighter he is having a blast) one-o-one for the fighter sounds good, ill try that. The monk does what monk should do, problem is he thinks he is a fighter type, who should be able to take and deal alot of damage. Im running a Dragonlance campaign just, in the Age of Mortals periode, some years after the Summer of Chaos. The land do has alot of problems with undeads, but that was only in the first 1-4 games, then they meet "backstab-able"-monsters, Kender rogue doing 1d4+3d6+3 damage, fighter with greatsword doing like 20-40 damage non-crit. I have helped the rogue with his skills, and he has put some points into lockpicking, ums and the likes. The players are having fun at the game table, they just all want to be usefull in combat. Think my main goal is to simple make a couple of non-combat games, where good skills and good roleplay is needed instead of a Greatsword.
Drag0nUL 10-30-07, 07:06 AM	It is nice to see a thread about a fighter being strong once in a while:D First of all, the rogue doesn't seem too optimized for combat as he apparently lacks Two-weapon fighting, which is almost a must for high-damage rogues. The fighter reaches 30-40 damage using power attack I presume(pretty hard for a non-optimized character to do otherwise. If so, you could try higher AC opponents. This should cut his damage output somewhat. You could also take advantage of the fighter weaknesses to give the others a chance to shine. A grease/web would probably take the fighter out of combat for a significant period, while the rogue and the monk will most likely make their Reflex saves. Also, you could try Fear/Hold Person on the fighter from time to time.
Sinfire Titan 10-30-07, 08:38 AM	Tell the bard to retrain his levels into wizard or cleric. Then watch the fighter get left in the dust.
Gryllmyre 10-30-07, 08:57 AM	Sometimes, it turns out that other PC's just need to keep certain things occupied until one particular PC gets to them. Two-handed weapons are especially nasty in 3.5 when you have high Strength and Power Attack. If the other PC's just stand back and let the fighter do everything, he'll probably quickly get killed. Anything the PC's can do to help the fighter do his job better would be a plus. Try a combat against some giants where they decide to gang up on the fighter because of how powerful he seems. This should make it clear how the fighter needs the rest of the group. The rogue should be moving around tactically, contributing with sneak attack. In my experience, monks tend to be weaker meleers, but they make great caster stun missiles with Stunning Fist, especially if they have the Spring Attack feat. Bards I think work very well as backup healers, group buffers, and monster debuffers (grease, glitterdust, haste, etc.)
lastknightleft 10-30-07, 09:38 AM	If the bard likes acting like a fighter too much, look into the PHBII and complete warrior, there are some great feats like flying kick that will increase his damage output and give him more options than just stun/flurry
Kaligrad 10-30-07, 11:05 AM	Perhaps less combat? The ad hoc xp awards were intended for productive sessions that contained no combat. One-on-one combat for the fighter is enough to suit him, but something more like infiltration would be suited for the 2 and a half (monk counts for half) skill monkeys you've got in your party. If the bard likes acting like a fighter too much, look into the PHBII and complete warrior, there are some great feats like flying kick that will increase his damage output and give him more options than just stun/flurry I truely hope you meant monk.
Bat 10-30-07, 01:27 PM	1) Use an encounter system where there is one main baddie that can slug it out with the Fighter, and several lesser monsters that the rest of the party can fight. I agree with this. I would have one big baddie that the fighter can handle come at them with the Leadership feat. Give him a cohort and some followers for the others to pick on. As for the fighter using cleave - have the big guy charge him and get up in his face. He is obviously the biggest melee challenge, making him the obvious choice for the big guy to attack. His minions can hold thier own against the others while he deals with this great-sword wielding, muscle-bound fighter. If you really want to use foreknowledge (I wouldn't advise it unless the baddies have a manner of finding this out in game, something along the lines of scrying or the players having some kind of reputation), you can give this guy some feats to give him attacks of oppurtunity (I think there are some feats out there that let you attack someone if they don't attack you, but I'm not real sure) and give him an good dex and improved init. to give him a good chance to act before the fighter so he can get up in his face. Hope this helps.
HermitIX 10-30-07, 04:48 PM	You could take the focus off battle. Give the bard some social challenges, give the rogue something sneaky to do. You could have the infiltrate a “noble” house hold. The fighter gets in by getting a job as lieutenant of the private guard, to get in he needs to beat a few of the better guards, and prove he has some chops. The Bard can get hired as private minstrel after an audition. The rogue and monk break in to steal some important item during a party. Perhaps what they need to steal is two parts, one in the possession of one of the guests the other in the master bed room of the house. The fighter keeps the guards from effectively investigating any alarm and the Mystic and Bard keep party goers from leaving the main room. Every one has something to do but little or no combat.
The_Wild_King 10-30-07, 05:00 PM	Rust Monster Bye-Bye fighter, enjoy your spotlight everyone else
Bat 10-30-07, 05:10 PM	Rust Monster Bye-Bye fighter, enjoy your spotlight everyone else I disagree. I know the Rust Monster is in there to balance things out should a group get overpowered, but I don't feel this is a time to use it. To be blunt, the fighter is not exactly "overpowered", he is just doing what a fighter does best - combat. The other characters are not geared for this, and, as such, will not be as good at it as the fighter is. To me, this just seems plain mean and spiteful. If I were the fighter's player, and this happened to me to simply to make the group about equally effective in combat, I would be very angry. The fighter has no doubt invested money in the sword (even if it isn't magical, it is almost certainly masterworked), and has invested feats in making use of the greatsword. If it is destroyed, he is basically useless until he can get to town and buy a new one, and if doesn't have the gold for it, then playing the game becomes no fun for the player playing the fighter until he can get another one. I would strongly advise against this course of action.
shadow_brian22 10-30-07, 10:53 PM	I have had this problem many times before. What i did was A) Separate them B) Use traps for the rogue C) Have some riddles for your bard in multiple languages (is that what you mean by walking library?) D) What has your Mystic been doing? E) Your monk should probably be doing special combat moves or moving all around the field doin little damage here and there and doing the finishing blows if they are at low health. Get him to learn how to Disarm, then throw those weapons as far away as he can :) works great or grapple the walking walls that the fighter cant hit. Easy unarmed damage there.
LFK 10-30-07, 11:50 PM	I disagree. I know the Rust Monster is in there to balance things out should a group get overpowered, but I don't feel this is a time to use it. To be blunt, the fighter is not exactly "overpowered", he is just doing what a fighter does best - combat. The other characters are not geared for this, and, as such, will not be as good at it as the fighter is. To me, this just seems plain mean and spiteful. If I were the fighter's player, and this happened to me to simply to make the group about equally effective in combat, I would be very angry. The fighter has no doubt invested money in the sword (even if it isn't magical, it is almost certainly masterworked), and has invested feats in making use of the greatsword. If it is destroyed, he is basically useless until he can get to town and buy a new one, and if doesn't have the gold for it, then playing the game becomes no fun for the player playing the fighter until he can get another one. I would strongly advise against this course of action.Quoted for truth. All too often on these boards the first answer is to punish the players by stripping them of something they've earned/invested in. Magic users killing things too fast? Anti-magic-field in the BBEG's lair! Yaay! Nothing says Fun like "I can't participate in the boss fight"! Encounters that negate strengths, strip characters of defining skills, or are tailor made to exploit weaknesses are easy to come up with, but are also cheap, and tend to make players feel cheated. They don't feel challenged when you make success dependent on something they never built their characters to do: they feel like they spent their points wrong. The harder, but more rewarding solution is to look at what your PCs are awesome at and then balance the overall session around that, keeping in mind that even a single combat encounter can eat up a significant amount more real-world time than a given non-combat encounter. Byzantine, horribly designed "puzzles" aside. This means that non-combat oriented characters may get 2-3 encounters per session, then they can fall asleep and roll to miss with their crossbow once a round during combat while the fighter gets his chance to punch faces. Realistically your entire party has combat potential. Even if your rogue is a Faceman he still has sneak attack. You don't need to be optimized for sneak attack to dish out some decent numbers with it. The Bard theoretically knew what they were doing when they rolled a Bard and has pre-accepted their support roll in combat. Regardless, remember that players will most often see the possibilities that you cue them on. Compare "As you enter the room you see an Ogre standing in the middle of the room. He turns and roars at you, while readying his massive club!" Vs. "You part a curtain of ivy that hangs from ornamental balconies above. In the middle of the room an ogre, ugly by ogre standards, has made his bedroom. He is sitting atop the crumpled corpse of what might have been a wizard, judging from the hat and scroll case, playing with some kind of bauble, and he doesn't look happy to see you. With a roar he stands, drops the bauble and readies his massive club!" The second cues the players on potential tactical options. Mobile characters could climb above, pestering the ogre and distracting him while the damage dealers ready their more powerful attacks, and the Bard/Wizard/Rogue/whoever moves to quickly try and grab the Wizard's loot to look for something to use for the fight. Not the most amazing example, but planning for alternate contributions and cueing the players in your descriptions will improve both the style of your combat as well as player feelings of involvement. Players don't know things exist until you tell them they do, so even if you've planned it, if all you mention is the ogre all they see is an encounter for the Fighter.
albinomonkeyking 10-31-07, 11:44 AM	If nothing else your players will learn from this at least. If they all wanted to be fighters then they all should have been fighters, I don't really get how they didn't know that. If the monk wants more damage and less versatility have him take fists of iron (1d6 for use of a stunning attempt) and tell him to multiclass for gods sake. With the monks speed he can also chase after ranged characters (something the fighter will be left in the dust to do) spring attack characters, or fleeing characters. All areas the fighter can't do much in. The rogue should buddy with the monk or fighter. If one of the team dedicated themself to be his flanker he will get nice damage every hit. Also, try to put in something for his skills. The bard buffs, how does he want combat? That is what the bard does and he does it insanely well. Throw some challenges with ACs that are high so he can buff the groups + hit. Throw a slightly harder fight and he will buff HP. Bards are amazing if you know how to play them right. I don't even know what a Mystic is so I won't comment. Anyway, if they want damage they should take damaging classes. The monk can pop into tattooed monk and get a smite, DR, a haste ability, any number of useful things. Rogues, although I don't play them much, have a decent amount of feat selection and classes (like the feat to reroll 1's on sneak attack). The bard could focus on cha and become a charmer. Those are always good, and very, very frustrating sometimes.
Empirate 10-31-07, 01:47 PM	I simply don't get how you can tell us the following with a straight face: We have like 3-5 combats doing a 6 hour game, so not like its only hack&slach. My group normally plays about 6 to 8 hour sessions. If we have three combats in a session, what we do is fight the whole evening. Even a single protracted combat can last up to three real world hours, if it's a boss with mooks or just lots of abilities coming into play. What you need to do is put some roleplaying in between the rollplaying. Get yourself a social/mystery/puzzle adventure together. Strew in one or two decisive fights, sure, but the majority of your group is NOT combat-oriented. 3-5 combats per session, on the other hand, is VERY MUCH combat-oriented. It also seems to me like you have been deliberately screwing over PCs whose strengths are not all about damage output. Why, oh why do you let your Rogue fight Undead for a long time? Why doesn't the Monk get to use his Stunning Fist to full effect? Why don't the Bard's Diplomacy checks and Enchantment spells do anything to prevent unneccessary encounters (He has tried, hasn't he?)? If your game is so much about combat, and combat so much about straight damage output, small wonder the Fighter shines! As far as adventures are concerned, take the combats down a notch or five. As far as fights are concerned, put something in there that a Greatsword-wielding fighter can't handle alone: terrain, special roleplaying-charged conflict situations (hostages etc.), mobile missile attackers, flying creatures, cramped spaces (no Greatsword...), touch attackers, will saves, battlefield control-heavy opponents etc. Don't overdo it, the Fighter is allowed to shine. But the others must get their chances, too!
denner 10-31-07, 06:55 PM	Thanks for all the replies :) Please dont go into how i could change the "out of combat" parts of my games, they are working as they should, its just the combat part that lacks abit of twinking. (ofc. good idees are always welcome) As i said earlier the campaign im running do call for alot of undeads in some regions of the world, and thats where they started. Im not just making a one-time game, all my games are planed, and work togehter. That said ofc. there are stuff for him to sneak attack, just not in the first 3 games. The characters are around lvl 8, and no combat has lasted more than 20-30 mins tops. I do like to focus my games on more roleplay than combat. The bard has only in the last couple of games began to use his cool bard powers, instead of just whining when ever there was a combat. Cramped spaces :) gonna try this one. Talked to the monk yesterday, he is happy with his character and the stuff he do. I, as a GM, hate stunning fist and disarm, those abilities has been alittle too efficient. A Mystic is like a Cleric. Casts divine spells from Cleric spell list, but cast them as a sorcerer casts arcane spells. She is doing the healing doing combat, and just got lvl 4 spells, so with Divine power (or what ever that spell that makes her fight like a fighter is called) she might be pretty good in combat now. I will not take away items that i have given to the players if they earned it.