Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nlentz88 04-16-07, 03:07 PM	I could really use some advice from experienced DMs regarding PC death. I'm running a home-brew campaign with five players who are all new to 3.5 and/or D&D entirely. We've spent the past month playing the Sunless Citadel, an old 3.0 module. Well, the party of five PCs and one NPC (all 2nd level) make it to the climactic battle with Belak, the evil druid, and his followers. I knew it was going to be a tough battle, and sure enough the dwarf fighter was cooked alive inside his armor thanks to a Heat Metal spell. Poor bugger. The rest of the party survived with enough XP to advance to third level. Well, I could tell the player was quite upset and distraught. He really liked his dwarven fighter. But I feel that character death is part of the D&D experience. I think that by knowing that PC death is a possibility, players experienced heightened tension, fear, and other cool emotions during game play. However, now the player and I have to figure out where to go from here. Two options have already come up: 1) creating a new character, and 2) having the party sell a good portion of its loot to have an NPC cast Raise Dead. According to RAW, either of these options results in the PC losing one character level. RAW states that a new character should be one level lower than the party average. And of course, Raise Dead costs the target one character level too. Doing so means that the character will be about 1,500 XP behind the rest of the party; not too much of a separation from the other PCs in the long run, but 1,500 XP is huge for a low level dude. The player is a little competitive with the others at the gaming table, and I know he won't be happy for his character to be lagging behind the other PCs in level. So do I show mercy and allow the player to create a new 3rd level PC to go with everyone else? Or should I perhaps ask the party to go on a quest (the PC-less player using one of my NPCs or a temporary PC) for a powerful cleric who promises she will cast True Resurrection on their fallen comrade in exchange for some McGuffin they return? Or should I just stick it to the player and tell him, "Though Luck?" I'd like to hear what you guys do when PCs die. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on PC death during the early levels (1-4) and whether or not you're more lenient for new players. Thanks in advance, Nick P.S. The dwarf got enough XP in that last battle to raise his level from 2nd to 3rd. But since he's dead now with no chance to level up, will he come back as a 1st level character?
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 03:12 PM	My advice: Bring out Captain Haveachat and discuss it with your players, preferably before one of them is decorating a mausoleum. My opinion: Character death improves the excitement of D&D. My regret: Not everyone sees it that way. My favourite thing about D&D: Resurection spells.
Torack 04-16-07, 03:14 PM	I usually have the player come back at a lower level, regardless of the level of play (barring 1st-level characters). Players get enough XP to make up for the loss in the long run.
sineous blackspell 04-16-07, 03:17 PM	if the pc died doing his job ie not doing something deserving of death he ought to be brought back...preferably by a high cleric who should be told of the noble sacrifice. this doesnt imo belittle death in the game but its a good solution for all involved im sure noone will think hey i can die whenever i want because "some"cleric will bring me back
Droma 04-16-07, 03:20 PM	At low lvls it really is just easier to have the player create a new character and have them go from there. What you can do is any XP the character earned past what it took to hit lvl 3 gets added onto the starting XP for a new character. So halfway between lvl2 and 3 plus XP earned past lvl3 from his old character. This way he isnt so far behind the other PC's. We have only ever gotten one character ressed in any of our games and it was a lvl6 character. Alternatively you can just start have him make a lvl3 character but with the XP of a lvl2 1/2 character, he'll take longer to lvl but he will be the same level as the rest of the party.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 03:21 PM	Yes it's cliched, but I like the idea that if a cleric brings you back from the dead you're expected to do a quest for them.
danielinthewolvesden 04-16-07, 03:37 PM	New PC, maybe even the super-trite "brother". Same level as the rest, but at base eps for 2nd.
nlentz88 04-16-07, 03:41 PM	Alternatively you can just start have him make a lvl3 character but with the XP of a lvl2 1/2 character, he'll take longer to lvl but he will be the same level as the rest of the party. That's an interesting idea. One of my concerns is that a level 2 character (whether a newly created one or the dead one brought back via Raise Dead) won't be able to contribute as much to adventures. He may even be too weak to survive some of the tougher encounters. So I really like your idea and will have to think about it some more. Thanks! And thanks to all who have offered advice so far. Keep it coming! Are there any DMs who don't penalize for PC death? For example, would any of you just let the PC make a 3rd level character to replace his dead 2nd level one (who would hae hit 3rd if he had survived) just to keep pace with the party of 3rd level adventurers?
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 04:01 PM	Are there any DMs who don't penalize for PC death? I don't have individual XP totals in any of my games. I only ever use group XP. Thus, no (mechanical) penalties for death.
Edana 04-16-07, 04:10 PM	Are there any DMs who don't penalize for PC death? For example, would any of you just let the PC make a 3rd level character to replace his dead 2nd level one (who would hae hit 3rd if he had survived) just to keep pace with the party of 3rd level adventurers? In general, I wouldn't allow a PC to be raised or recreated with no penalty. That said, when everyone is below 4th level, I could probably be persuaded to make an exception, as experience awards for 1st-3rd level are identical, meaning that a 2nd level character won't get the benefit of 'catching up' that the system gives lower level characters until the rest of the party gets to 4th level. Also, in the 1-3 level range, characters are much more fragile and a single critical hit can make the difference between life and death. From your description, it sounds like the player was doing his job and didn't die because of a stupid choice, and probably shouldn't be overly penalized for it. Starting him at baseline 3rd level or letting him be 3rd level with an xp 'penalty' to pay off seems like a reasonable course of action to me. (i.e. putting him a couple hundred xp behind the rest should be sufficient 'dying is bad' reinforcement without being unduly harsh) Once characters are above 4th level, the system self-corrects for people that are behind the party in levels, so there's less reason to be lenient about it, though I would probably still make exceptions for brand new players or for mistakes on my part (underestimating the challenge of an enemy or the like).
rmccowen 04-16-07, 04:31 PM	To start off, what Edana just said: below 4th level, there's no way for PCs that are behind on experience to catch up, so bending the RAW on character death is perfectly reasonable. Personally, I dislike the idea of casually-available resurrection (and I don't feel that most D&D games acknowledge the deep consequences of that particular magic). In my games, coming back from the dead is the most serious kind of pact with a deity, and therefore clerics who perform it for anything but the holiest of causes are liable to lose their class abilities. Because of all that, my preferred house rule on PC death is that new PCs come in at the average level of the party. However, I'm well aware that not all DMs feel that way. The rule my current group hashed out with our DM is this: You gain experience for everything you accomplished, up to and including participation in the battle that killed you. Figure out your level after that XP is applied, and reduce it by one. You return halfway through that level. This applies whether your current PC is resurrected, or you bring in a new PC. (If you had just hit 3rd level, you come back with 2,000 xp: the 1,000 minimum for 2nd level, plus 1/2 of the 2,000 you need to become 3rd.) If your new level would be more than two levels below the current average party level, you instead come back with the minimum XP for the APL - 2. (If the rest of the party averages 10th level, but your most recent death would cause you to be 7th, you instead come back with the 28,000 xp you need to be 8th level.) It's a fair mix between rewarding players who stay alive, and not putting dead PCs so far behind that they can't catch up. The APL - 2 rule also makes sure that a player with a string of unlucky deaths doesn't end up so underpowered that they can't contribute to the party.
Psychoticpsymon 04-16-07, 04:31 PM	I'll fudge a damage roll here and there at low levels, especially with new players. I don't think I'd ever let a group lose a PC in the first 3 games. After that, probably fair game and no more fudging.
nlentz88 04-16-07, 04:37 PM	From your description, it sounds like the player was doing his job and didn't die because of a stupid choice, and probably shouldn't be overly penalized for it. Starting him at baseline 3rd level or letting him be 3rd level with an xp 'penalty' to pay off seems like a reasonable course of action to me. (i.e. putting him a couple hundred xp behind the rest should be sufficient 'dying is bad' reinforcement without being unduly harsh) Once characters are above 4th level, the system self-corrects for people that are behind the party in levels, so there's less reason to be lenient about it, though I would probably still make exceptions for brand new players or for mistakes on my part (underestimating the challenge of an enemy or the like). Yeah, the player was doing his job. He's the tank and waded right into the middle of the melee. Also, the BBEG druid cast Heat Metal on his armor in the first round, so the PC did the right thing by trying to go straight for him and trying to take him out. It's unfortunate that the PC had already suffered some damage and just couldn't take the heat. :rolleyes: I don't think I made a mistake by not watering down the encounter. First, it was the final climax to a published adventure. Before running it, I had asked for advice on the D&D Adventures board. Other DMs had told me the end fight would be tough, but that a party of 3rd level PCs shouldn't have too hard of a time. Well, the party was only 2nd level, but there were six of them instead of four. The rest of the party survived, though a couple were unconscious and needed to be stabilized. Maybe I played the BBEG too intelligently, though. I'll have to think about that for awhile. Anyway Edana, good point about the XP table's jump from 1-3 level PCs to 4+ level PCs. I'm leaning more and more toward allowing the player to roll up a 3rd level character. If I do, I think I'll explain to all the players that this is a special circumstance and that future deaths (once they're 4th level or higher) will result in and -1 penalty to character level when creating a replacement adventurer. Thanks again for the advice, guys!
nlentz88 04-16-07, 04:44 PM	To start off, what Edana just said: below 4th level, there's no way for PCs that are behind on experience to catch up, so bending the RAW on character death is perfectly reasonable. Personally, I dislike the idea of casually-available resurrection (and I don't feel that most D&D games acknowledge the deep consequences of that particular magic). In my games, coming back from the dead is the most serious kind of pact with a deity, and therefore clerics who perform it for anything but the holiest of causes are liable to lose their class abilities. Because of all that, my preferred house rule on PC death is that new PCs come in at the average level of the party. However, I'm well aware that not all DMs feel that way. The rule my current group hashed out with our DM is this: You gain experience for everything you accomplished, up to and including participation in the battle that killed you. Figure out your level after that XP is applied, and reduce it by one. You return halfway through that level. This applies whether your current PC is resurrected, or you bring in a new PC. (If you had just hit 3rd level, you come back with 2,000 xp: the 1,000 minimum for 2nd level, plus 1/2 of the 2,000 you need to become 3rd.) If your new level would be more than two levels below the current average party level, you instead come back with the minimum XP for the APL - 2. (If the rest of the party averages 10th level, but your most recent death would cause you to be 7th, you instead come back with the 28,000 xp you need to be 8th level.) It's a fair mix between rewarding players who stay alive, and not putting dead PCs so far behind that they can't catch up. The APL - 2 rule also makes sure that a player with a string of unlucky deaths doesn't end up so underpowered that they can't contribute to the party. Yeah, that's pretty much what's in the DMG. I can totally see the wisdom behind this way of handling PC death. Thanks for sharing your system for XP awarded for encounters in which the PC died; in my case, the PC did in fact receive enough XP to level up from the encounter in which he died. Also, rmccowen, I like your idea about keeping Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection quite rare and saved for special situations. It makes a lot of sense. Although it's nice for PCs to have these spells as a safety net (especially for new players), making them rare and special adds great depth to the campaign world and opens up a whole load of new adventure hooks. Thanks for sharing!
jimpaladin 04-16-07, 04:52 PM	I realize your the DM and you get to do what you want BUT, what does the player wish to do? Keep this pc(then apply raw) or let him make up a new 3rd level pc that will have to have a new backstory to try and tie-in with the rest of the party. IE-no "brother" of the slain dwarf, tho' he could be from the same clan come to bring him back only to find out the cause of death and then decide to continue on to "avenge or honor" the fallen one. To sum up - if he wants his "old" pc then use the raw and do the quest thingy ELSE let him roll new pc at same levels as others with the caveat that this is a one-time only since you are under 3rd level deal to keep the hard feelings down and for you the DM to control the table.
nlentz88 04-16-07, 06:06 PM	I realize your the DM and you get to do what you want BUT, what does the player wish to do? Keep this pc(then apply raw) or let him make up a new 3rd level pc that will have to have a new backstory to try and tie-in with the rest of the party. IE-no "brother" of the slain dwarf, tho' he could be from the same clan come to bring him back only to find out the cause of death and then decide to continue on to "avenge or honor" the fallen one. To sum up - if he wants his "old" pc then use the raw and do the quest thingy ELSE let him roll new pc at same levels as others with the caveat that this is a one-time only since you are under 3rd level deal to keep the hard feelings down and for you the DM to control the table. Well said. I always want the players in my game to enjoy themselves and their characters. Part of the fun of D&D is being in control of the creation and development of your own character. In this case, though, I wanted to read some advice from other DMs before presenting the player with options. So yeah, jimpaladin, the way you laid things out is probably the way I'll handle the situation. I still haven't made up my mind about whether or not the PCs will be able to just take the body to the local temple and pay for the spell to bring him back. Heck, if it takes them too long to get back to the city (and temple), Raise Dead might not be good enough. I'm not sure if they'll be able to afford Resurrection, so perhaps a quest on behalf of the temple will be in order.
Kursk 04-16-07, 06:31 PM	It's up to the players whether to pay to bring him back. That IS NOT an area the DM gets involved with other than playing the NPC who will raise the character.
mike_beavers 04-16-07, 07:02 PM	I agree its up to the players to decide. Yes he loses the level. With the experience point chart and the cr calculations give a benefit to the lower level characters roughly 10% more so he will eventually be at the same level as the other characters
fdailey 04-16-07, 07:13 PM	You need to tred carefully here, becuase you do now will impact player expectations in the future. It is hard the first time a player plants his 1st PC in the campaign ground. But it is also a rite of passage. PC's sometimes die. If being an adventurer was easy, kids and goblins would be doing it. Use the rules. If there is a way and the group wants to... fine. If not, look at the guy, pat him a on the back and roll up a new PC. Before he knows it, he will "like" this PC just as much. If the rest of the party is only 3rd level, make him start at level 1. In my games if you lose a PC you can bring in a new one 2 levels below the lowest member PC of the party. If you remove the idea of PC death from the game... there is kind of no point in playing. All the best Fred
PwnageLlama 04-16-07, 07:26 PM	I would have him start a new level 3 character.
Sathery 04-16-07, 09:57 PM	The way I see it, he doesn't get to start out at level 2 or 3 in creating a new character. He's got to deal with the fact that his PC died. It does happen. It happens to the DM every game. If the party (and I stress that word because it's up to their characters as to whether or not they want to bring him back or not) wants to choose to bring him back. After all, he was only a level 2 dwarven fighter. Run of the mill. Search anywhere and you'll find a dwarven fighter. So, have the guy suck it up and create a new character. He's got to learn that PC death is part of the game. And if he doesn't get that now, he's going to be quite angry about it when his character is a much higher level.
Imatash 04-16-07, 10:36 PM	P.S. The dwarf got enough XP in that last battle to raise his level from 2nd to 3rd. But since he's dead now with no chance to level up, will he come back as a 1st level character? Hi Nick I usually allow them to use the XP then deduct the level so he is at 2nd. If they roll up a new character I usually place them 1 level behind. Death sucks but it is part of the game. As far as raising, put yourself in their shoes. What would the characters do? It is really up to their buddies what to do. Sometimes players chose to roll new characters but the party in true roleplaying (Paladins and Clerics or best friends and Relatives) raise the character making him in effect a NPC. Imatash
ArchonJohn 04-17-07, 02:10 AM	But I feel that character death is part of the D&D experience. *Gets on hands and knees* YES! YES! THERE ARE OTHERS OUT THERE!!! ahem.. We tend not to deal with anything less than True Rez - mainly because it blows not coming in at the same level. At level 2-3, sure, it's no big deal... but around level 9 to 12 it becomes a pretty large handicap. My advice, have him make a new char at the same level as the party, or have the party blow enough cash to True Rez him. (They could even find a caster willing to cast the spell for free, barring the cost of the diamond - a whopping 15,000 gold.) Probably best of RFGing the character and making a new one.
CharlieRock 04-17-07, 06:51 AM	P.S. The dwarf got enough XP in that last battle to raise his level from 2nd to 3rd. But since he's dead now with no chance to level up, will he come back as a 1st level character? You don't get any XP from an encounter you die from. So if a miracle of any sort happens, the Dwarf remains at second level. Your right about PC death being part of D&D. Some groups measure the fun by how many PCs it took them to get through a module! I would let the player roll up a new character and start at second level. There isn't much difference in power ,but he will rocket up the XP ladder faster then the rest. Try explaining that the character could be his dead character's younger brother, or something. :)
ArchonJohn 04-17-07, 12:10 PM	*Imitates a dumb gamer* "Hey guys, I'm finished making my character! He's exactly the same as my previous one but his name has a -2 after it!" hahaha
CharlieRock 04-17-07, 01:04 PM	*Imitates a dumb gamer* "Hey guys, I'm finished making my character! He's exactly the same as my previous one but his name has a -2 after it!" hahaha Only if you point-buy ,buddy. ;) We've gone through whole tribes here. Funny how the whole home town was the same class.
KillerGM 04-17-07, 01:51 PM	Are there any DMs who don't penalize for PC death? For example, would any of you just let the PC make a 3rd level character to replace his dead 2nd level one (who would hae hit 3rd if he had survived) just to keep pace with the party of 3rd level adventurers? Here's how I run raising: The character comes back with the base XP for the level he was when he died. He doesn't lose a level. For example, using your case, say the Dwarf (level 2) had 1800 XP when he died. The party gets raise dead on him, he comes back, still level 2, at 1000 XP. He still gets XP for the encounter (per the DMG), even if he dies, and he gets the XP after he is raised, IIRC, per the raise dead spell or somewhere. I don't know. Maybe the DMG. As for making new characters, if someone decides to make a new character instead of being raised, it depends on the levels. At the lower levels, when resources are really an issue, I let them make it up at the same level as the group. As it gets later in the levels (personal call), I charge 1 level. You shouldn't be too concerned about his being 2nd and the rest of the party being 3rd - it shouldn't be that big of a deal. One level difference isn't that big. I remember those mods fondly... and having one character out of 5 (6) shouldn't effect it too much. I honestly can't think of how he got killed by Belak in such a big party, but crazy bad stuff can happen. The idea behind the CR system is that it's an "average" party level - meaning if 5 out of 6 party memembers are 3rd, then the appropriate CR is 3. Hope it helps!! :D
KillerGM 04-17-07, 01:55 PM	You don't get any XP from an encounter you die from. This is simply not true. Per the DM, pg 41: If a character takes part in an encounter, even if she dies during the encounter, that character gets a share of the experience points. If a character dies and is raised, the awarded experience points are granted to her after she comes back from the dead (and after she loses the level from death, if appropriate).
CharlieRock 04-17-07, 01:59 PM	This is simply not true. Per the DM, pg 41: hmm, I usually don't award XP because you (very technically) didn't 'overcome' the challenge if you die. Oh, well. I'm a rebel. :cool:
jhosmer 04-17-07, 02:08 PM	I use group XP and a different mechanic for resurrection spells. Instead of losing a level, and all the painful recalculations, the raised PC gets a negative level, as defined in the rules. It's much easier to apply. When the PC reaches the next level, they can remove one negative level. In your PCs situtation, it would work out like this: 1. Raise the PC as a level 3 character. 2. Apply the effects of 1 negative level: -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level castable. 3. When the character reaches 4th level, he can lose the negative level. This lets death have a sting, but it doesn't permanently hinder the character. I can't take credit for this idea. Andy Collins put it up on his website.
nlentz88 04-17-07, 03:40 PM	Here's how I run raising: The character comes back with the base XP for the level he was when he died. He doesn't lose a level. For example, using your case, say the Dwarf (level 2) had 1800 XP when he died. The party gets raise dead on him, he comes back, still level 2, at 1000 XP. He still gets XP for the encounter (per the DMG), even if he dies, and he gets the XP after he is raised, IIRC, per the raise dead spell or somewhere. I don't know. Maybe the DMG. As for making new characters, if someone decides to make a new character instead of being raised, it depends on the levels. At the lower levels, when resources are really an issue, I let them make it up at the same level as the group. As it gets later in the levels (personal call), I charge 1 level. You shouldn't be too concerned about his being 2nd and the rest of the party being 3rd - it shouldn't be that big of a deal. One level difference isn't that big. I remember those mods fondly... and having one character out of 5 (6) shouldn't effect it too much. I honestly can't think of how he got killed by Belak in such a big party, but crazy bad stuff can happen. The idea behind the CR system is that it's an "average" party level - meaning if 5 out of 6 party memembers are 3rd, then the appropriate CR is 3. Hope it helps!! :D Thanks for the advice, KillerGM. It looks like the party is leaning towards Raise Dead or possibly even True Resurrection. Of course they'll really only be able to afford Raise Dead, but I'm brainstorming a quest the party can vow to fulfill for the temple in exchange for a True Resurrection spell at the cost of only a Raise Dead. It's going to be challenging, though, and offer very little treasure.
fdailey 04-18-07, 01:30 PM	I was just thinking about it, when I ran this module, I had a player get his dwarf barbarian killed the exact way. :D Small gaming world. The party got the PC raised...but it was costly.
Etarnon 04-23-07, 01:49 AM	My personal spin: I don't use raise , resurrection, or anything like that. Healing is rare, and expensive. Combat is often deadly. A climactic encounter, even more so. Character die. When they do, their tale is added to the legends of the campaign on the website that I have for the campaign. I then have them generate a replacement PC (or a new player does this too) any backstory they want, brother cousin, or non-relative, at the lowest level of the surviving party -1. So if all the other PCs are level 3, he's now a level 2. The way I award XP, he'll catch up. If you just allow him to generate a new level 3, there's no loss for death and thus less drama. He chose to charge, stand and die as a hero. Make him one in your campaign legends. Name a shield or sword or temple or road or village after him, in game. Play out the funeral, As a short scene where people speak of his deeds. Sounds like you ran the final battle just right. I've played Sunless Citadel online via NWN, and it was a bear. Good luck. Nice to see a young and thoughtful DM that cares about his campaign and players.
Chalkboard_Sonata 04-23-07, 02:00 AM	hmm, I usually don't award XP because you (very technically) didn't 'overcome' the challenge if you die. Oh, well. I'm a rebel. :cool: Well, if everyone died, that would be the case. But as long as the party still beat the enemy, the challenge is overcome. The party used its resources and continues on. It just happens that the party used up more resources than you had available.