Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OnTheVerge 04-11-06, 09:50 AM	I have a small dilemma that I'm hoping you fellow DMs can help me out with. I created the problem myself, so I'm hoping that you all can give me advice on how to deal with it without resorting to extreme measures. Here's the situation: In a previous campaign one of my players ran a druid with the Greenbound Summoning feat. Although I had reservations about the feat at first, she played it rather fairly. She's a mediocre tactician -- not great, not bad -- and she's definitely not a power gamer. Although she summoned creatures often, she didn't rely on them completely. In the end, the feat had no negative effect on the campaign. Everyone had a lot of fun and her fellow party members appreciated the extra help from the Greenbound creatures. In our latest campaign another player decided to create a druid and use the Greenbound Summoning and Augmented Summoning feats. He, unlike the player I mentioned above, is a great tactician and often crosses the line into power-gamer territory. We have had a few encounters now and I've figured out his tactics. He's basically a one trick pony. His spell list doesn't matter, as his plan is to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally to get as many summons as possible. They, in turn, cast Wall of Thorns and Entangle. The walls of thorn are strategically placed to provide cover for the druid and his allies or in places to block foes from moving. The entangle spells fill the rest of the area, as normal. He has got great battlefield control tactics. His augmented greenbound wolves are a walking army. The problem? His fellow players are bored to death and his DM (me) is wondering how he can balance this campaign. I know many of you will be tempted to say that I was a fool to allow him to take these feats together. Some may also be tempted to say I should just tell him to scrap the character and start with a new one. Although both reactions are valid, they're not what I'm looking for. I allowed him to take the feats, so I want to first see if there's a way that I can work with them. If all else fails, I might have to resort to drastic measures. But, that should be my last resort. The party is 4th level and consists of the Druid, a Cleric, a Fighter, a Rogue and a Wizard. So far they've encountered only humanoid foes, which has made the druid's tactics pretty effective as the foes have no easy way to get through/over the walls of thorns or the entangle areas. The majority of the bad guys in my campaign are humanoid, so this could be a problem throughout, unless I change things. As they gain levels, the foes will have access to flight, which will help out. The greenbound abilities aren't very useful against flying creatures. So, by adding flying creatures or foes that can cast Fly I will be able to somewhat cope with the problem. But, I don't want to do that completely. Relying primarily on flying creatures would be cheesy on my part and would smell of the NPCs metagaming. Also, that would make it unnecessarily difficult for the other PCs. Another way of dealing with it would be to increase the number of foes in each encounter. The summons only last a number of rounds and their spells disappear with them. So, although the Walls of Thorns and the Entangle spells are hindrances, they are only up for short periods of time. To deal with this, however, the druid just summons another set of creatures and has them put up replacement walls of thorns and entangle areas. Eventually he'll run out of spells each day and will have to rely completely on his party members. So, upping the number of foes could force this situation. But, as above, I wouldn't want to do this all the time. It would get old and it wouldn't always make sense, story-wise, for every combat encounter to be with a high number of baddies. Ultimately, I want everyone to have fun. I want the druid to enjoy the benefits of the feats. I also want the other players to feel useful in battle. I also want to feel as a DM that my encounters are actually challenging to the party. ;) OK, so I've presented two possible ways of dealing with this -- flight and high numbers of foes to make the battles last longer. Do you all have other creative suggestions? Our next session is this Friday, so I have several days to make adjustments to my campaign before then. If you need any more information from me, please ask. I'm on the boards often, so I'll be able to respond fairly quickly. Thanks! P.S. I also plan on speaking with the player to see if he'd be willing to tone down his usage of the summoned creatures. Even if he does agree to do so, I'd still like input on how to deal with them when he uses them.
Missing Minds 04-11-06, 10:20 AM	Sounds like the standard for any spell casting issue. Traps and ranged attacks from far or from above. You break up his concentration as summoning is a 1 full round action. (I'm not certain what all the feats would do to the summoning time). You could also throw burrowing monsters at them. Attack them from underfoot. I'm not certain what a "dispell magic" would do against summoned monsters. I think "banish" would probably get rid of them. I don't know if your druid took it or not, but a cleric with a spell of "scilence" (and I have NEVER understood why the @#$^ arcane users never got that spell) can ruin a caster's day quiet well. Or, you do some sort of spell to remove material components from the druid. Dehydration works wonders on getting rid of hollyberryies. ;) I'm not certain how much magic/undead is allowed in your world, but if your players walk in an old battle field, plenty of undead can arrise/be summoned to fight against them.
nghtsngr 04-11-06, 10:22 AM	It sounds that the real problem is that you have one player that dominates combat. There are several tactics that can be used to thwart his particular trick, but that always seems like you're singling out a player for punishment. Better to provide encounters that, while they aren't set up to punish one player, allow the others to have a more active and vital role. Use damage reduction as a way to ignore his summoned creatures. I'm thinking were-creatures here. Dr 10/silver is hard for a summoned creature to work through. Constructs usually have pretty good DR as well. Even if the creatures can sometimes get through the DR, in general it will be different tactics that bring them down. You might, as a lark, include a spell caster with dispel magic. Dispel magic when used in the area effect mode would have a seriously detrimental effect on his entire plan. All the summoned creatures must resist, along with all the walls of thorns and entangle effects. Humanoid creatures are, in general, pretty intelligent. They'll see that he just sits back casting full-round spells, which are easier to interrupt. If they unload some arrows at him while he stands around casting summon spells, he'll end up making a lot of concentration checks to get the summon off. Suprise rounds are your friend. If you get a couple of melee combatants up close and personal before he gets a chance to start summoning creatures, he'll find it a little harder to take complete control of the encounter. This is also a good trick to use against casters who love area effect spells. Finally, include challenges that have nothing to do with fighting. His tricks won't be so usefull trying to navigate a lava-filled chamger, or dealing with large-scale traps. He also likely isn't the "Face" of the party, so NPC interactions that don't involve death and distruction would probably be the forte' of a different player. Just some thoughts.
kelvinaw273 04-11-06, 11:40 AM	Fire sounds like a good addition to muck his plans up too. Or a cleric with control over the Plant domain who can turn plants (the summoned creatures turn up ... and go a way again, leaving neither wall or entangle zones). How about terrain? Rocky or underground terrain would prevent wall of thorns and possibly entangle.
OnTheVerge 04-11-06, 04:58 PM	Great suggestions, so far. I really appreciate them. :) It sounds that the real problem is that you have one player that dominates combat. (...snip...) Finally, include challenges that have nothing to do with fighting. His tricks won't be so usefull trying to navigate a lava-filled chamger, or dealing with large-scale traps. He also likely isn't the "Face" of the party, so NPC interactions that don't involve death and distruction would probably be the forte' of a different player.I do include non-combat oriented challenges. And, yes, other characters shine at those times. So, no worries there. But, as you pointed out at the beginning, he dominates combat. That's the aspect that I'm concerned about. The RP and non-combat situations are all satisfying. The druid's domination of combat has the following effects: It's boring for the fighter who wants to bash things. :D He has used his longbow more often than his Maul...which he is focused in. And the cleric...he has no one to heal...so he feels like he just has to sit back and clean his fingernails. ;) And the wizard gets no opportunity to light up the battlefield with his flashy spells! I'm kidding, of course, but you get the idea. The rogue is the face of the party and he shines when it's his time. But, they all would like to feel that they contribute something to combat. Once again, thanks for all the suggestions so far. They are definitely helpful. :plotting:
Wuggadad 04-11-06, 07:57 PM	Remember that Protection from xxx keeps Summoned Creatures out. No bodily contact from creatures with natural attacks means no damage. Nada. Alternatively, mounted archers. Archers close to 200', fire. They observe defenders summon creatures, they bug out and wait for the monsters to go away. Lather, rinse, repeat. Nasty in open plains, where it is hard to hide from them. I am looking forward to introducing rock throwing Gargoyles into my campaign, when the party is a bit higher level.
tiercel 04-11-06, 08:35 PM	The real issue here is, to a large extent, Greenbound. The feat is arguably overpowered (Augmented versions of the Nature's Allies are no slouches already, having extra power poured onto them starts just getting ludicrous). You may wish to have a DM conference with your party and see whether there is agreement that the feat is frankly just too much for your game. Your summoner won't be happy at first obviously, but it might bring things back into balance somewhat. A good test of a problematic feat/feature/spell is -- if you were to remove that single feat/feature/spell from your game, would it become much more playable? If so, then you probably are experiencing brokenness and removing it is a good idea. Of course, this won't stop him from using the same general tactics (and using animal growth to buff his now-animal summons). If you are throwing spellcasting enemies at your PCs, keep in mind that dispel magic (set to burst version, to catch multiple summons in a single area) can at least potentially take out a number of summons at once. And as previously mentioned protection from X spells hedge out any non-[opposite of X] creatures. In the case of neutral animals and elementals, that means any of the protection from X spells will work. That spell is 1st level and appears on several spell lists, so it's not hard to give NPCs access to. (Magic circle, obviously, protects a group but is higher level.) It is also eligible for potion format.... Of course this doesn't help your nonspellcasting monsters so much. although any form of DR will go a long way to mitgating the impact of the summons. Finally, 1-round casting times are nasty, since the druid is vulnerable to attacks during the entire round of summoning (between the turn when he starts summoning and the turn when he finishes). Any damage taken in that interval forces a Concentration check or lose the spell. Yeah, OK, he may be doing the standard druid schtick of "normal fluffy looking animal" but if the animal is hooting/screeching/raising a ruckus and making odd motions, and other animals pop up nearby it, monsters might figure SOMETHING is up and whomp on the noisy little critter.
AlphaSquirell 04-11-06, 09:03 PM	Surround them. Summons fight one front, the party fights the other. (so instead of sitting in the back cleaning his fingernails, the Cleric can help defend the rear flank) Large opponents. By large I mean bigger than the party. Maybe not something too hard to fight, but something large enough to give his summons a beating, quick. (such as a Giant or similar creature that can kill summons before they get within range, thus the fighter/longbow and the wizard and possibly cleric can dominate from a distance) Attack when they are weak. Druid is either out of spells or losing health. Thus, the entire encounter can become "protect the summon beatstick!" While the party may not like having to protect the guy who steals their fun, they can always say "While you did dominate today, don't forget that you wouldn't be here without the rest of us." Likewise, split them up. Say, Druid/Fighter on one side, the rest on another. They try to work towards the center to reach a doorway between them, or something. The "DM's Godbolt" works pretty good on overpowerd characters as well.... (oh, wait, you're looking for a peacful solution.... In that case, disregarde this last idea)
Mist of Shadows 04-11-06, 10:22 PM	Actually I have a good idea. He is a caster right? (just run with it) he only has so many spells a day right? So spread the fights out. Have only a few people attack at each point. He can summon his summons and such but have there be more fights in a day. More fights means more time for the others to shine. Bad people send scouts too. And a slightly bigger group when the first ones didn't report back. For example have the bad people use a summon to attack the party from say invisibility. They try to deal with the summon they waste some spells. (more then the one summon costs the bad guy.) Repeat a few times. Add a few hireling bad people to soften up the party. Talk to the fighter in the group and have him tell the summoning player to stop with the enlangle spells. I want to be able to crush things damn it. Or better yet :) Have fun with it. Look through the book and find make a spell or magical item that lets the fighter ignore the walls of thorns completely. That allows him to charge in there and crush the life from the bad people. In other words he gets to use his maul. As for the wizard well there are plenty of ways to help out get a sling or something :) For the cleric start singing dirty songs or something while waiting. There are a few differnt spells ou can use. Talk to the druid player about ways to include the other people. It doesn't sound like he is a mean person. He just seems to enjoy combat and tactics. So get him to help his follow players/characters out by coming up with new ways to kill the bad guys. Have someone suggest to the druid that it's boring killing the people this way. Can't you think of some new ways. Talk to the players no reason to take away the feats just change the encounters a bit toss in some things now and then that aren't bothered much by forest growth such as a blighter that just turns it to dust or something. A defilier from darksun is nice here as well. or something like that. A few protection spells or banishment spells. My favorite an invisible scout with a permanent illusion of several other combatents with him. By the time you figure it out you have wasted a large amount of spells. Scout doesn't even have to be a person. How about an animal that you charm to run down the road towards the pcs? There are a lot of options to do before taking away the feat.
Tytalus 04-11-06, 10:32 PM	Two good points made bear repeating: A cleric with the plant domain can rebuke the summoned creatures: turn the summons against the druid! Bring ranged combatants: during the horrendous 1-turn casting time, have them pelt the druid with arrows/spells/etc. : why wouldn't they attack a spellcaster in action anyway? Other options to lessen the advantages: flying opponents, freedom of movement (cleric with travel domain), etheral/incorporeal opponents etc. Also, consider this: sure the summonred creatures can cast wall of thorns and entangle, but how precisely can the druid direct them? These spells are not cast by the druid directly, after all.
Arakim 04-11-06, 10:42 PM	If he is disrupting the game, and is focused on attaining power, the solution presents itself to you: Give a portion of the exp to his summoned creatures. If they are doing all the fighting and messing up your game, they should at least get experience for it. Don't touch the other player's share; divi up the exp of the Druid. This way, you don't have to tell him to stop his overpowered tactic, and he'll still have it available should the guano hit the blade barrier one day.
HalasterAteMyHamster 04-11-06, 10:54 PM	If he is disrupting the game, and is focused on attaining power, the solution presents itself to you: Give a portion of the exp to his summoned creatures. If they are doing all the fighting and messing up your game, they should at least get experience for it. Don't touch the other player's share; divi up the exp of the Druid. This way, you don't have to tell him to stop his overpowered tactic, and he'll still have it available should the guano hit the blade barrier one day. I *strongly* advise against this. Not only is it totally against the RAW, but you'd be guarenteeing an argument with him, especially if any of your other players have any plans to used summoned creatures (or familiars, or animal companions, or special mounts, or cohorts...) in the future. My advice? Add some anti-plant villains. If they're of average power but get a boost when fighting green things, then they won't be a major problem for the rest of the party, and they'll tone down the druid's powers. Also, consider foes designed to disrupt his tactics. For instance, fast-hitting enemies that can stop him getting off his summons, such as monks, would work wonders. Also, there are quite a few ways to get summoned creatures off the battlefield, or even prevent their arrival altogether. Incorporeal enemies will make his pretty walls and formations useless, and fire will just about burn him to the ground.
Maverick_qc 04-11-06, 11:00 PM	You may wish to have a DM conference with your party and see whether there is agreement that the feat is frankly just too much for your game. Your summoner won't be happy at first obviously, but it might bring things back into balance somewhat. This is what we did in my party when the druid choose that Feat. The greenbound template is just too powerful for the game at low and mid level.. plus the Briar wall ability is way too broken. What we did is talked about it, then for balance and fun sakes, we just banned it from our game.
Arakim 04-11-06, 11:06 PM	I *strongly* advise against this. Not only is it totally against the RAW, but you'd be guarenteeing an argument with him, especially if any of your other players have any plans to used summoned creatures (or familiars, or animal companions, or special mounts, or cohorts...) in the future. My advice? Add some anti-plant villains. If they're of average power but get a boost when fighting green things, then they won't be a major problem for the rest of the party, and they'll tone down the druid's powers. Also, consider foes designed to disrupt his tactics. For instance, fast-hitting enemies that can stop him getting off his summons, such as monks, would work wonders. Also, there are quite a few ways to get summoned creatures off the battlefield, or even prevent their arrival altogether. Incorporeal enemies will make his pretty walls and formations useless, and fire will just about burn him to the ground. If the xp idea is out, I would just flat out ban it from the game. The exp idea was just to add some flexibility on the issue. Adding encounters that counter this one guy's tactic makes the game even more devoted to this one character. The power sounds unbalanced, it is affecting the gameplay of others. 86 it. It sleeps with the fishes that have the summon entagling kelp ability.
Wuggadad 04-11-06, 11:55 PM	Please keep in mind that the Summon (N) spells are all Close Range. 25' plus 5'/2levels. A 10th level caster has a range of 50'. Unless your summoned creatures are really fast, archers on fast horses, 60' movement or better, (hey, go for expensive horses with the Swift Trait, or Fleet of Foot) are going to be able to disengage. Summon spells have a really short duration. A bunch of clever barbarians who heard from a survivor what happened to the last bunch who tangled with the summoner would have some ideas about what to do. The party could run into an illusionist who tricks the party into buffing up with a single Major Image spell. Arguably, a loud enough countersong would prevent the druid from giving commands to his summoned creatures, but it would have to be pretty loud, and the Bard would need the Affect Plants? feat. Among the tricks to consider is to have nested encounters. First there are the guards or the scouts, then a response group or a delaying force, then the main body gets into position. Drag an encounter out over time and space and the really short duration buffs like Summon fall out first. Long before the Magic Weapon and boost stat spells.
Wuggadad 04-12-06, 12:06 AM	That reminds me. One of the treasures I plan on having my PCs find is a +1 axe, Plant Bane. Aka, the Woodsman's Axe. More a tool than a weapon, but +3 to hit, +2d6 vs plants is a good thumping. It would take out the barriers pretty quick, right? But I really think the key is having an enemy willing and able to shadow the party. If the party gets exasperated and wants an easy way to bring their shadowers into close combat, as the GM say, "Ask Crassus (The Roman general defeated by the Parthians) for some tips." Of course, that only lasts until the party spends 4,000 gp a piece to get Boots of Expeditious Retreat +30 to movement, and then they have a whole new library of tactics to use.
fatal error 04-12-06, 03:39 AM	Hmm, what does this greenbound feat do, exactly? Without knowing this and just based on your description: Use archers as well as melee combatants. Use secret entrances and/or ambushes to get around his front walls and get the rest of the part into the action. Use some are spells like fireballs, flaming spheres, burning hands etc. to kill off his summons. Use dispel magic on his summons and plant walls. Use hit and run attacks. Use alchemist's fire 'en masse' to burn down his plant walls. Make some encounters that can go either combat or non-combat, that way it serves to let the rogue possibly shine, and if it turns into combat they're too close for entangle and briar wall to stop them from reaching the party. Most of these suggestions should only be used once, maybe twice, a session.
OnTheVerge 04-12-06, 09:35 AM	Wow! Even more great suggestions came in over night. Thanks to everyone. These are all helpful to me. Much appreciated! Hmm, what does this greenbound feat do, exactly? I'm not sure how much I can actually say about the feat since it's not part of the SRD. But, the main points that are troublesome are: All summons get Wall of Thorns 1/day, Entangle at will, DR 10/slashing. All of this in the hands of a low level Druid....multiple times a day, since he can just keep spontaneously casting Summon Nature's Ally until he runs out of spells. The player will most likely be reasonable. We've been gaming together for years. So, when I speak to him he'll probably agree to tone it down. I just want to come to a middle ground where he can feel that the feat is beneficial and I can feel that I have ways of dealing with his tactics without going overboard myself. All of the suggestions so far have given great ways to reach that goal. :bow: Please keep the ideas coming!
primemover003 04-12-06, 01:18 PM	Entangle at Will, DR 10/Magic AND Slashing, Fast Healing 3, Tremorsense, +6 nat AC... at low levels is way too much. Plus it gains the Plant type. Maybe if you powered down the template a little... I mean Entangle alone (40' radius) is a combat killer in itself. Also at low levels the Summoner probably can't communicate with his summoned allies so he can't command their SLA's with any real precision.
fatal error 04-12-06, 02:11 PM	That's the most ridiculous feat I've ever seen. Seriously. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's now summoning creatures of higher CR than what he's fighting! My formerly posted tactics stand. Dragons would be good too, lots of dragons...
Tormsskull 04-12-06, 02:47 PM	Entangle at Will, DR 10/Magic AND Slashing, Fast Healing 3, Tremorsense, +6 nat AC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What ungodly poorly created book does this come from? This is a prime example of why Core Only DMs exist.
wonlee76 04-12-06, 04:48 PM	Lets see what can be done against a summoner. #1: Talk to the player. If his whole group is bored maybe he'll tone down his one trick a bit using it only in dire situations. #2: Enforce the full round casting required for SNA (presuming he doesn't have that feat that shortens the casting time). During that full round, he should be pelted with as many offensive spells and range attacks as possible to disrupt his spellcasting. #3: Enforce the limited range on SNA. Short range is really really short. His minions need to be relatively close to really dish out the pain against the baddies. By the same token, that brings the baddies into range against the druid. #4; Big blow up spells. AoE spells can be devastating against Greenbound SNA creatures (especially in conjunction with the short range on SNA). #5: Play fire with fire. Have some of your baddies use similar tricks with Summon Monster or the like. If players can used optimized one trick pony tactics in a fight, so can the baddies. Officially speaking, a spellcaster specialized with summoning spells doesn't even get a bump in CR even though those summoned creatures can substantially increase the difficulty of the encounter. #6; Control the battlefield yourself. Entangle is useless without plants so set up some urban or classic dungeon crawl/underground adventures where the entangling ability will be useless. Underwater adventures might take some of the edge off as well to his power. Or flying encounters or whatever your imagination can come up with. #7: Surprise them once in a while. As in, ambush them during their evening ritual known as sleep. :P Nothing makes some players feel useful then the sheer luck that they happen to be on watch when some ambush occurs. #8: Lots of encounters or encounters with lots of monsters (or both). Quantity helps a lot. Either your druid will be casting spell after spell in a long drawn out encounter or he will be casting 1-3 spells in each encounter where there are several encounters to deal with in 1 day. (This trick works on any type of powerful caster or psion by the way). #9: Protection from X potions on some baddies can help against the SNA spells that your druid wasted without realizing the baddies have access to such potions giving the other players in the group a chance to participate in the fight. #10: Regroup. Monsters are not all stupid. If they find themselves in a fight that they feel they can't win (and with that DR and fast healing ability, they should be running after a few rounds), have them retreat to come back and pound on the group. Rinse and repeat until the druid is out of SNA or so low that the spells will prove to be a minimal obstacle. Using all of the above things with some moderation should let the druid have his fun without having the druid feel like you're completely cheating him out of the benefits of the feat he chose. The only constant should be having lots of encounters or encounters with lots of baddies in it. That one constant should give your other players a chance to shine in combat with the druid running low on spells while you consider using the other options once in a while to give your other players a chance to shine in combat. .
Noria Merfolk Mage 04-12-06, 05:47 PM	Actually, instead of trying to avoid the monsters using long-ranged attacks, it sounds like a better choice might be to get the monsters into melee with the bored players as quickly as possible. Flying monsters, rogues and monks who can tumble and jump past the greenbond spells, ambushers...whatever it takes to give the other players something to do. Don't focus a whole bunch of metagame tactics on Mr. Broken, do the opposite, engage the other players with things to do and bypass his dominating effects. Of course, none of the other advice is in any way bad, but a mix is probably the best approach. The focus should be to share out the fun, not to punish offending players. As for the feat itself, depends on how your party feel about in-game power continuity. You should talk to the player about it first, ask him if he's willing to tone things down and get an idea to how he'd react to any forced changes. But nerfing it is certainly a possibility. Another option is roleplaying concerns: Say it's hidden knowledge taught by only a few druid sects, and ask the player to come up with how he got it.
Panqui 04-12-06, 05:50 PM	What ungodly poorly created book does this come from? This is a prime example of why Core Only DMs exist. It comes from the book The Lost Empires of Faerun. It's WoTC material.
primemover003 04-12-06, 06:45 PM	It comes from the book The Lost Empires of Faerun. It's WoTC material. Core as in PHB/DMG/MM only... As for the Greenbound Template, it's wonderfully flavored but mechanically overpowered... I wonder if there is an Errata? Anyway the best way to deal with this is to talk to your players and let them know you're gonna tone down the template. I would go with: Plant Type +2 nat AC DR 5/slashing Entangle 1/d
Radijs 04-12-06, 07:07 PM	My #1 tactic with greenbound summoning: disallow it. Its seriously NOT a good thing to have. Talk to the player (IN PRIVATE) and explain to him/her that the feat in his/her hands is too powerful. Offer him a diffrent feat in return but tell him that this feat has to go. Ashbound summoning is a decent feat that can replace greenbound and still be effective. If you have to resort to in game thingies because the player will not give the feat up its going to create some serious conflict between you and the player. Its always better to prevent such things.
Arcen 04-12-06, 07:15 PM	-Don't give the PC's a chance to rest. Keep throwing encounter after encounter at them. eventually the druid will have exhausted all of his spells and be nothing more that a mediocre fighter while the other members of the party will be ready to go. -If it comes down to it he'd get owned by an assasin.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 09:56 PM	Alright as for the magic and slashing go with a blessed long sword. That beats both of the requirements. Or at least you can treat it that way. The entangle is a bit of a bother but not all that scary really. It just requires some work to to counter. The wall of thorns thing is about the same. The guy that mentioned the fact that you don't have a good way of controlling the summons is right. That's why a wizard wins the summoning over a druid at the low stage. (other then this feat.) The druid needs a spell to be able to tell his summons to do anything other then attack. You the dm need to start controlling his summons. Tell him that's the trade off. Look into maybe applying an increase to the cost of applying the feat. Such as needing to burn a higher level spell slot. But just making it vanish is silly. It's not completely over powered. As to the person that said there is a reason people play core. I just have one thing to say blah. I can make a core character that is as broken or more then most other books. Shapechange (phb) barghest (mm) and wonderous item to cast it (dmg) and get many free levels by eating people or clones. No book is safe from abuse and core are as bad in some cases.
tiercel 04-13-06, 12:03 AM	Also at low levels the Summoner probably can't communicate with his summoned allies so he can't command their SLA's with any real precision.While I think Greenbound is ridiculous, I think this is also a good point. Someone who doesn't have speak with animals running (for normal animal summons) or speak with plants (for ridiculous Greenbound versions) shouldn't be able to direct or control his summons. (Handle Animal would work, as per the rules, on normal animals.) They won't turn on him or his allies or anything silly, but they will just straightforwardly attack the summoner's apparent enemies. This is something that is often let slide but if your summoner is playing Master Tactician with his summoned hordes coordinating SLAs and carefully maneuvering to select targets you should put your foot down. (It's hard enough getting Int 10 people with whom you share a language to coordinate tactics on the fly in the heat of battle, much less Int 1-2 summons who don't even have a language.) Even if he has the appropriate spell up, there's no way he should be communicating tactics as a free action if they are much more complex than "get him!".
Dragoncat 04-13-06, 03:23 AM	Another key flaw in his strategy is the complete lack of mobility. His plan is to basically set up a playing field under his terms. This falls apart if your enemies remain mobile. Harry him. Have a set of opponents that are swift and nimble, dashing in, striking, and disappearing in the blink of an eye. Someone who can fly, attack from a range, has great powers of mobility, and very good stamina. In short, send in the warlocks. Using fell flight, eldritch spear, and flee the scene, unleash a devious hit and run strategy. Never keep your skirmishers in the same place each round. Keep them moving, forcing the party to follow them. They'll be out of reach of entangle and walls of thorns, and the constant motion will keep the druid from preparing the battlefield as he wishes. Keep the pace of the game fast and upbeat, as this will basically be a chase scene. You might want to have some final battlefield where the bruised party can confront their antagonists, just make sure it doesn't have plant life. Also, give at least one of the warlocks brimstone blast. Note that this tactic will rely on higher level warlocks, so it should be reserved for a BBEG, LBEG, or later levels. If you wish to use such a tactic right now, have the battle take place in a vast cavern. Give the warlocks eldritch spear and spiderwalk* and have them use the columns, walls, and ceiling to their advantage. As always, keep moving. *Spiderclimb? I don't have my book with me, so the name might be wrong.
j_gunder 04-13-06, 04:51 AM	In the defense of the Greenbound Summoning feat, the Lost Empires of Faerun supplement states that the some the feats and prestige classes within it are not to be given to characters judiciously...they are relics, of a sort, from a high-powered magical age (obviously, from the title of the book, the feat exists in the Forgotten Realms setting), and are meant to reflect the extreme level of magical aptitude in ages past. There are rules in the book for getting access to the feats and PrCs in the book, and all of them require a huge amount of study, gold, and access to someone who 1) has the feat and 2) is willing to teach it to someone, or else ages in a library studying the history of whatever empire the feat came from. In this case, the DM was wrong to open up that book for the PCs to pick and choose feats at low levels...they are meant to fuel high-powered and high-level play in the Realms, not to unbalance first-level casters who are now summoning badgers with supreme stats and powerful SLAs. But, as the feat was allowed and taking a feat away from a player is quite difficult, many people have offered viable strategies to counter the abilities of the summoned creature. If the campaign is set in the Realms, throw a Blighter at them, or like someone else said, a cleric that can turn plant creatures. In the end, though, especially in BBEG battles, the army of empowered summons will overwhelm just about anything not specifically built to counter that character.
a_psh 04-13-06, 04:53 AM	You said "Entagle"... is it like the spell? If so, remember that it only works in approrpriately woodsy areas. Casting Entangle in, say, a lich's old crypt won't do anything unless the place is really overgrown.
TokTok 04-13-06, 05:03 AM	Wall of Thorns and Entangle? Fire and suicidal figures. If he's really a druid he won't appreciate a burning psycho clinging onto his precious summons and killing off the plantlife around them.
OnTheVerge 04-14-06, 03:41 PM	I want to say "thanks" again to everyone who gave me such useful ideas on how to deal with this. You've proven once again that this is an incredibly helpful community. I spoke with the player today and he agreed to tone down the usage of the summons and play the druid with more versatility. He understands that, if his usage of summons continues to be a problem for me or the other players, we'll have to make some changes. For now, I'm going to let him keep the feat and I'll use some of the tactics you all have suggested. It's amazing what you can accomplish when two reasonable adults communicate. :) Our next session is tonight. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks again! Have a great holiday weekend, everyone! :pint:
Thindelock 04-14-06, 04:13 PM	Seems the thread has served its purpose, but for what it's worth: The poster above is right, LEoF is intended to represent... well... LOST material, hard-to-find magical secrets from bygone eras. It's kind of like having characters in a non-magical d20 Modern game have access to Atlantean magic. It's like the Spellfire feat: yes, it's mechanically viable, but it's NOT intended to be in common play. I've created a toned-down version of the feat: Critters with the feat get the plant type and dr2/slashing; the dr goes up by 2 per 5 caster levels. This gives them the immunity to mind-affecting effects and crits (which is HUGE), and DR that isn't gamebreaking early-in but scales approrpiately to the challenge rating. Generally, it's hard to play a dedicated Summoner as a viable character in high levels, but your summoned creatures having DR and crit immunity makes it MUCH more viable. But I can empathize with the OP: I've allowed things to non-statmongering players, saw that they didn't break the game, allowed them to powerplayers, and then wanted to stab my eyes out. It's an easy mistake to make. I'm glad talking with your player worked out for you!
Mist of Shadows 04-14-06, 05:55 PM	I like stabbing the offending players eyes out more. But that's just me. But yeah some players do really well with not abusing things others don't.
Maj 04-17-06, 08:57 PM	I want to say "thanks" again to everyone who gave me such useful ideas on how to deal with this. You've proven once again that this is an incredibly helpful community. I spoke with the player today and he agreed to tone down the usage of the summons and play the druid with more versatility. He understands that, if his usage of summons continues to be a problem for me or the other players, we'll have to make some changes. For now, I'm going to let him keep the feat and I'll use some of the tactics you all have suggested. I know that for now the problem is solved, but just in case there are further issues... Having looked over the feat and the greenbound template, it seems that the difficulty lies mostly in the ability to summon more powerful creatures without having to adjust the spell level to compensate. Perhaps another easy solution might be to treat Greenbound Summoning as a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by two. So you can summon a dire rat with a first level spell slot (Summon Nature's Ally I), but in order to summon a greenbound dire rat, you need a third level spell slot.
Arganis 04-17-06, 09:00 PM	Perhaps another easy solution might be to treat Greenbound Summoning as a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by two. So you can summon a dire rat with a first level spell slot (Summon Nature's Ally I), but in order to summon a greenbound dire rat, you need a third level spell slot. I like it.
Keenath 04-19-06, 05:41 PM	Again, I know this problem's been mostly solved, but -- augh. Don't let Greenbound Summoning into your game. Friends don't let friends take broken feats. Giving GS to a low level druid is like handing out Holy Avengers to first level paladins, or holding up the Staff of the Magi and saying, "Up for grabs!"
scottyboy123 07-27-06, 01:46 AM	Ooh. Ooh. Oooh. Sorry for resurrecting this topic, but I'm sure I read something - errata, perhaps - that said this was actually intended to be a METAMAGIC feat that takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher. Even so, I think it's still overpowered. Would taking out the Wall of Thorns and Entangle abilities make it better?
OnTheVerge 07-27-06, 06:16 PM	Interesting...I haven't seen that errata. I'll see if I can find it. Although the topic is still an interesting one (to me, at least), the reason for the topic no longer exists. The druid in question dug himself into a hole by being a one trick pony. As was suggested, I had an encounter with both melee fighters and archers. The wolves and their wall of thorns/entangle abilities were very useful against the melee fighters. But, since he was so boldy summoning the wolves in a large open space, the archers caught on and targetted him. They interrupted his further attempts at summoning wolves and peppered him with arrows. After the character died I wondered if the player would be upset with me. To my surprise, he smiled and nodded, admitting that he had put too much faith in the overpowered wolves and hadn't thought about situations in which they would be of no help. Phew! I was sure glad to have that over with and that it ended in a very mature manner. :D