Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OverpoweredMonk 02-05-07, 03:50 PM	Hello All. Ive been DMing a group for a bit now and would like to hear what other people have to say about this situation the group recently got put into. As a DM I warned the players at the start that I would not get them out of a situation they put themselves into through not thinking/bein idiots or what have you. The party was recently traveling back to their hometown and rolled up a random encounter. My random encounters are completely by the book (10% chance of encounter decided on table described by DMG According to area) rollings and they ended up rolling an encounter with a Wyvern. The fight started with the wyvern appearing on the distance and moved towards the party, it rolled first on initiative and its initial attack it did a flyby tail stab on the character (ranger) sitting on top of the carriage the pompous sorcerer had rented and nailed the ranger with its poison attack. The ranger ended up taking 11 points of con damage going from +2 bonus to -3. The wizard walking on the ground ended up casting a couple of ray of enfeeblements on the wyvern bringing its str low enough for me to rule that it could no longer keep itself aloft and was forced to the ground. The Sorcerer inside the carriage then got out to see what the fuss was all about and since he was now the closest to the wyvern the wyvern charged him. The ranger then used his next set of actions to tumble Behind the wyvern so he could get a flank bonus with the sorcerer instead of healing himslef to get the rest of the poison out or using his awesome bow to attack instead. To stop this from getting any longer what ended up happening is the sorcerer ended up using his last resort (his racial breath weapon powered by getting rid of a spell for the day) thinking it was kill or be killed. He ended up damaging the wyvern enough that the rest of the party could finish it before the wyverns next turn would kill him but his breath weapon also hit the ranger and ended up killing him due to a failed reflex save and the massive con damage the poison did to him. Now the player that was playing the ranger is kinda ****** off at the sorcerer for killing him, and the Paladin for not trying to get the sorcere prosecuted (The Paladin seems to be the only one to realize it was a self defense action) and now im afraid hes going to quit the group all together. Which I would hate because hes a great player who knows his stuff (except not to flank with a cornered wizard after taking an 11 point constitution hit) it seems. Anyways I would just like to hear what you guys as fellow DMs would have said or done or ruled about the situation as now im starting to question my judgements made as DM even though everything was by the book and it was in now way shape or form an encounter that should have ended with dead PCs. Any insight from some more experianced at this than I would be greatly appreciated. Thanks (hoping my first post here isnt bad hehe)
Humanmale 02-05-07, 04:02 PM	Hmmm... Was there no chance to Raise the Ranger? Couldn't the Sorcerer have aimed off the breath weapon so as to get the wyvern but not the Ranger. Enough recriminations. If it happened, at least it happened fair. The Ranger's player is being a baby. hopefully with a bit of time to calm down he'll feel better about it. If you're scared he'll walk maybe you could sweeten the deal by offering to enhance his new PC a bit. Maybe some extra XP or a fancy magic item he always wanted to play with. If that wont work you could find a way to get him Raised. Sure it's a little Dues Ex but so what? If it keeps the game working it's ok.
Tiberia 02-05-07, 04:03 PM	On the on hand, the Ranger sounds like a prima donna who ought to be playing the game called "you survive every encounter" where instead of rolling the dice, you put the dice down to show the number you want. On the other hand, you describe the Ranger as a great player who knows his stuff. If, so, then I guess the Ranger had his rant and will accept the effects of the dice roll in time.
OverpoweredMonk 02-05-07, 04:16 PM	Well the party cleric is not high enough to access ressurect spells yet and I dont believe the party as a whole would want to fork over the $ to pay for him to be ressurected. And that's not even considering if the player would accept the ressurect or not heh. as for the aiming thing, it could have been possible but not likely he would have been able to without provoking an attack of oppurtunity that could have easily killed him (he was pinned between the wyvern and his own carriage) and im not one of those DMs that lets a character use 5 minuntes to plot out an exact course of where his spell is going to go ESPECIALLY when theres a large dragon in your face about to eat it.
DrakePD 02-05-07, 04:33 PM	As a DM, some times by the book is not always by the book.. The books are there for a guide. If the CR rating for the wyvern was too high then you might want to nerf the wyvern a bit. For example the wyvern just finished a fight with another creature and was low on hit points). It sounds like to me that a few bad actions and bad rolls on the player’s part ended up with a dead character. Now I am the type of DM that usually frowns upon a player's character killing another player's character, even if it’s just an accident. Basically because is causes problems like the ones you are dealing with now. If I see that an action is going to kill another player's character, I usually warn the player that if his character does this action, it may or will kill the other player’s character. For example I might have warned the sorcerer if he breaths on the wyvern in this way he will kill the ranger. I would then allow a slight modification to the sorcerer and let him take a 5 ft step (to try and aim the breath weapon away from the ranger) or something along those lines. (This may allow you to adjust a small amount of the damage the ranger took and it not kills him out right) Of coarse some player might just go right ahead and kill the ranger, and this is another topic, I hope. Now for the after math of the situation. The ranger is dead, and the player is blaming the sorcerer for this. This is common and is not resolved easily. The best advice I have for you now is to get the ranger back to life. Allow the PC's to find a way to have True Resurrection cast on him. I would say that a traveling cleric comes along who needs a carriage real bad! This will allow the sorcerer to sacrifice a bit to help the situation out.
DM_Death 02-05-07, 04:36 PM	If the ranger lost 5 hp PER LEVEL (in a party where the cleric can't cast resurrection) and then decided to get into melee combat with a wyvren, he deserved to die. Bottom line. End of story. The fat lady has sung. Even if he was 10th level and had Max HP, thats what, 110hp? I just lost 50 hp from a wyvren's poison. And not just lost them...I can't heal them back. My max HP are now 60. I think I'll CHARGE THE WYVREN! He doesn't sound like a "good player who know's his stuff". He sounds like a player who expects his DM to keep bad things from happening to his character. I say, "Leave him dead." Don't give him any special treatement if he makes a new character. Don't allow him to be raised cheap. If the party will fork over the gold, then he owes them. If he decides to walk because he screwed up, that's his problem. The only other solution I see is to have the party sell his gear and make the ranger pay for his own resurrection. Sure he lost all his gear, but at least he's alive. If he wants to buy more stuff, allow him to take out a loan from a loanshark who charges ridiculous interest...
OverpoweredMonk 02-05-07, 04:52 PM	As a DM, some times by the book is not always by the book.. The books are there for a guide. If the CR rating for the wyvern was too high then you might want to nerf the wyvern a bit. For example the wyvern just finished a fight with another creature and was low on hit points). thats the biggest beef i have. . the wyvern was a CR6 and the party is 5 people who are all either level 5 or 4 due to ECL due to power races or what have you. They could have taken out the wyvern no problem The ranger had a +3 frost shocking longbow but chose to dive into melee anyway, that just baffled me. I know he was goin more along the melee route with his character but wow.
Arrowhen 02-05-07, 05:07 PM	Great players who know their stuff know that characters die. It doesn't sound like there was any malicious intent behind the sorcerer's actions; it was just one of those things. If it had happened to my character, I certainly wouldn't bear any ill-will toward the sorcerer player; hell, I'd probably be too busy laughing about it (OOC, of course). If I were you, I'd give the player a day or too to calm down and then see if he's ready to be reasonable. If he is, having someone raise a dead PC in exchange for a couple of "favors" is always a quick and easy source of adventure hooks. If he's still pouting about it, though, leave him dead. If he wants to quit, so be it. You might be better off without him.
Some_call_me_Tim 02-05-07, 05:12 PM	If I was the player I would peeved at the sorcerer too. However, I would be peeved at myself for charging into melee when severely wounded, especially if I had a decent ranged attack. I have trouble imagining a situation where the sorcerer couldn't avoid breathing on the ranger by taking a 5-foot step. It certainly shouldn't take a player anything like five minutes to plot it out. There are only nine possible moves. Some blocked by a Wyvern and others blocked by the carriage. Like I said I think it is both their fault. The ranger for running in wounded and without thinking ahead (he should have already figured the sorcerer's next move). The sorcerer for 1) not figuring out what the fuss was all about before exposing himself and 2) not trying harder to avoid the ranger.
DrakePD 02-05-07, 05:18 PM	thats the biggest beef i have. . the wyvern was a CR6 and the party is 5 people who are all either level 5 or 4 due to ECL due to power races or what have you. They could have taken out the wyvern no problem The ranger had a +3 frost shocking longbow but chose to dive into melee anyway, that just baffled me. I know he was goin more along the melee route with his character but wow. Some times players can do the stupidist things.... But what is important here is the game and having fun playing it. This could turn out to be a thorn in your side with this player blaming the other player for his characters death. If he is a good player he will get over it. With that said, I try not to have the characters die due to the actions of another player's character. I like to have a the enjoyment for myself. :)
Bruunwald 02-05-07, 05:26 PM	That sounds like a really exciting encounter! If it were my ranger, I'd have been more cautious, but even if not, I would still feel somewhat satisfied that the encounter was at least so action-packed. I don't think you should feel bad at all. This isn't really in the realm of stupidity. It's more in the realm of "these things just happen sometimes." I would talk to the player of the ranger, explain to him just that: these things happen. It's not the paladin's fault for simply recognizing an accident. It was careless on the part of the sorcerer, but what else could he do? It's D&D. It's a game. It happens. Tell this guy how much you appreciate his playing. Tell him about the time you lost a character or remind him of the time it happened to somebody else. Remind him that this happens, and it sucks, but that you are all on the same side and all want a fun game.
nightwing 02-05-07, 05:35 PM	This seems to me like a totally acceptable situation. The ranger used what he thought were good tactics, and turned out not to be. It happens. No big woop. Nothing to get all bent out of shape about. Flanking the opponent is usually a good idea. It just didn't occur to him that the sorcerer might fire off a spell that would catch him in its area. You live and learn. The ranger (if he is raised) will remember to take that into account in future cooperation with sorc's and wizards, and the sorc will next time maybe hold his action long enough to yell, "OUT OF THE WAY!" before he throws his biggest spells so that his comrades can duck for cover. Why would the ranger's companions NOT want to have him raised? To me, that's the more important question. "Hey guys, our friend Fred the Ranger just bit the big one. Should be get him raised?" "Nah, we've only been adventuring with him for 8 years, just leave him there to rot, but grab all his nice equipment first..." Just what kind of characters are these, anyway?
GospelofRob 02-05-07, 06:23 PM	side note: i think a wyvern is tall enough that arcing the shot up would hit only the wyvern, and not the ranger. A little bit of "DM" fault and that might fix the problem. Its not your fault, the ranger's fault, or the sorcerer's fault. A simple miscalculation by the players, not the characters. Offer a solution, if they take the bait, you win! if they don't, damn better luck next time.
OverpoweredMonk 02-05-07, 06:24 PM	Why would the ranger's companions NOT want to have him raised? To me, that's the more important question. "Hey guys, our friend Fred the Ranger just bit the big one. Should be get him raised?" "Nah, we've only been adventuring with him for 8 years, just leave him there to rot, but grab all his nice equipment first..." Just what kind of characters are these, anyway? Its not that they dont want to raise him. there are a few intangibles about the whole ressurect thing at the moment. 1) The surviving members of the party have only known him for approximately 1 week in game (this is the rangers 2nd character in the party the first one leaving voluntarily) 2) The cleric is multi-class wizard / cleric (going for mystic theurge PRC) and also a tiefling so his clerical level isnt what it needs to be for raising. 3) they simply cant afford right now what it would take to afford the materials for a ressurection. And as far as I know the plans right now are to make sure he gets a proper funeral with all his equipment intact but thats gonna be next session heh.
PwnageLlama 02-05-07, 06:50 PM	If you want to take pity on the player, you could create a big cache of gold in the wyrven's nest, enough to get a cleric to ressurect him.
Bruunwald 02-05-07, 07:30 PM	If you want to take pity on the player, you could create a big cache of gold in the wyrven's nest, enough to get a cleric to ressurect him. On that note, sometimes it's a good thing to bail out the newbs in a fair way (like treasure enough to resurrect, but a small side quest to find the right priest), with the caveat that it's only happening this once because they're newbs. Not sure if that applies to this party, though. If you've been DMing them for "some time," they ought to accept by now that danger is part and parcel.
Ramses III 02-05-07, 09:34 PM	The bow the ranger's carrying has a market value of 50,000 gp. The group could sell it for the money to get him rezzed, and give him the remainder (should be 20k, since it should sell for half its market value). Then you solve the dead ranger problem, and you no longer have a magic item more appropriate for a level 10-13 character in the hands of a level 5 character.
Novabomb 02-05-07, 10:45 PM	First, that ranger definately has a weapon way too powerful for his level. Second, the ranger was greedy. Moving into melee for the +2, was just a stupid move, or at least a mistake. He has to live with the consequences. Third, the ecl system hurts at the low levels, the loss of hit die is a hazard. They wont have the HP of a normal party their level. Selling the bow for a rez is reasonable.....
OverpoweredMonk 02-06-07, 12:40 PM	thanks everyone. I r eally appreciate the feedback and advice ive gotten from this. Glad I finally signed up for the forums now heh
Gr8tyrant 02-06-07, 12:53 PM	The ranger used what he thought were good tactics... It just didn't occur to him that the sorcerer might fire off a spell that would catch him in its area. A ranger not assuming a spell caster would cast a spell when he had his back to the wall is not using good tactics... I don't know if my party is different than others, but when my casters start getting hit, they will most certaining use a spell that might hit the party. They like to assume rogues can evade, and fighter types can soak it up. My casters do NOT like being hit!
frightened fighter 02-06-07, 01:04 PM	If it were me DMing this I would have told him that was a stupid thing to do immediatly after he did (not that I'd let him change his mind) than when things went bad he'd know it was HIS stupidity that caused his demise. That said, this could become a side adventure of sorts in the midst of the campaign. Feed in an NPC for the "Rangers Master" and send them on a quest to resurrect the fallen Ranger. This may seem a bit extreme but if it keeps your group intact and smooths over any hard feelings than its worth it. It'll create more opportunity for Experience, Treasure, and other Goodies! This game is supposed to be fun and a way of making friends not causing fights and hard feelings. Just my Opinion but I am 36 years old and have been playing D&D since I was 11. Back in the days of the 1St EDDITION BASIC SET.
Arrowhen 02-06-07, 01:13 PM	If it were me DMing this I would have told him that was a stupid thing to do immediatly after he did (not that I'd let him change his mind) than when things went bad he'd know it was HIS stupidity that caused his demise. I would never tell a player he did something stupid... they learn better when they figure it out on their own.
frightened fighter 02-06-07, 01:31 PM	He didn't learn JACK if all he did was blame the Sorcerer!
Aberlonian 02-06-07, 01:39 PM	Pks happen. I'd give the player the opportunity to be rezzed (as mentioned, the bow could easily be sold), but it's also a great opportunity to start a new character. Sometimes characters die and you miss them, but it's always fun to try a new character. If he's still sore about it, you could offer to run a solo side quest to bring him to the party. If that doesn't make him happy, I doubt anything will.
nightwing 02-06-07, 02:49 PM	A ranger not assuming a spell caster would cast a spell when he had his back to the wall is not using good tactics... I don't know if my party is different than others, but when my casters start getting hit, they will most certaining use a spell that might hit the party. They like to assume rogues can evade, and fighter types can soak it up. My casters do NOT like being hit! Like I said: the ranger used what HE thought were good tactics at the time. The OP stated that they haven't known each other long (the ranger and sorcerer), and, oops, he goofed. Big woop. It shouldn't be assumed that the ranger will know what the sorcerer will pull out of his bag of tricks when put in panic-mode. It's not entirely the ranger's fault. As I mentioned, maybe the sorc could have held his spell just long enough for the ranger to move. This is a great learning opportunity for both characters and both players.
Siduakal 02-06-07, 03:49 PM	What logic would make him think that it was a good tactic to get engaged in melee period? He just took his +2 Con Bonus to a -3 Con Bonus.. He's a Ranger. That's d8 hit die. Party is 4-5, so I'll give him 5 to be nice. Assuming he got freakishly lucky and rolled all 8s. He now has -at the very best- 25 HP.. From his previous -at the very best- 50. Assuming average rolls of 4-5(We'll say 2 4s, 2 5s, and the base 8) - he's just dropped to a whopping 11 HP. How can anyone see it as a good idea to engage in melee at that point? That's WITHOUT taking into account his bow that rocks far more than it should at his level. Sorry, but Darwin would be against anyone being blamed but the Ranger.
Novabomb 02-06-07, 06:18 PM	What logic would make him think that it was a good tactic to get engaged in melee period? He just took his +2 Con Bonus to a -3 Con Bonus.. He's a Ranger. That's d8 hit die. Party is 4-5, so I'll give him 5 to be nice. Assuming he got freakishly lucky and rolled all 8s. He now has -at the very best- 25 HP.. From his previous -at the very best- 50. Assuming average rolls of 4-5(We'll say 2 4s, 2 5s, and the base 8) - he's just dropped to a whopping 11 HP. How can anyone see it as a good idea to engage in melee at that point? That's WITHOUT taking into account his bow that rocks far more than it should at his level. Sorry, but Darwin would be against anyone being blamed but the Ranger. Don't forget, we don't know the LA on the ranger, it could have been even worse!
Siduakal 02-06-07, 06:35 PM	Yea, I didn't even figure to assume the LA possibility.. Which just drops his chance of survival down in chunks. Not to mention if he's 4th level and not 5th. (It was a 4-5 range) Really, I've seen PKs. In fact, I've used nonlethal as a Monk to knock out someone in the party for trying to loot a villagers corpse. This isn't the Sorcerers fault. The Ranger shouldn't of engaged in melee in the first place, he should of backed off and assisted at range or stood off to the side.
pres_man 02-06-07, 06:47 PM	I would say the biggest problem would have been if after the battle the sorcerer didn't say, "OH CRAP! WHAT DID I DO?" If he was more like, "Oops, oh well", then I would say the ranger's player has some right to be upset. Basically his characters are being treated as disposible.
Siduakal 02-06-07, 07:17 PM	From the way the TC worded it, the PC threw away his first character for this new one. (Left the party voluntarily) I'm really thinking this guy is just a problem player in his early phases.
DarkflameX 02-06-07, 07:38 PM	hm.. well maybe if they were close enough to theyre home town a cleric or healer of sorts just happened to come by and help him or some one from the town saw the wyvren attacked and called the guard and warned others its important to keep players happy because over all thats the point of the game
Necrosis 02-06-07, 08:03 PM	well without risk the game is boreing and besides, Its no biggy reincarnation is cheap, sure he'll come back as sometihng, but he gets to come back! Alternativly he can have a new charater that is knocked back a bit xp wise. Either is good. Just remind him studity, bad luck or poor tactical play can be fatal!