Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AcidAngel 09-28-05, 01:45 AM	I am thinking of developing a low magic low to middle relevant technology world, i.e. early Iron Age type world. Any ideas or advice, from current or past experience, that you may have would be appreciated. [If this is in the wrong forum could the WizO please move it. Thank you.]
Flushpuppie 09-28-05, 03:00 AM	Low magic is being discussed in 3rd edition Arms and Equipment. Which also is a very handy book for low magic campaigns
Razaiel 09-28-05, 08:23 AM	Here's some ideas that I used in a low-magic campaign that I ran for a time. Make alchemical items more available (less expensive), create an alternative to healing potions (I created herbal poultices that exchanged lethal damage for non-lethal damage, they worked just like potions, so 1d8 points of lethal damage would be converted to non-lethal damage and so on), use the Heal skill like it is used in d20Modern (a successful first aid check restores 1d4 hit points), make the class skill kits less expensive (climber's kit, healer's kit, etc.). Those are just some ideas to think about.
Leewei 09-28-05, 08:53 AM	Lack of magical healing will make Heal skill and downtime critically important. Ability and level drain will be nigh impossible to fix, so exercise caution with greater undead. Monsters are typically balanced against a party equipped with magical weapons, armor, other items and magical buffs. I'd suggest upping the effective CR of any monster by a multiple of 1.25 to reflect this.
Gilean 09-28-05, 09:31 AM	I did the easy thing; designed a new game for it. Has worked thus far. For D&D, use more masterworking rules, some sort of defense by level rules (like BAB; one easy variant is BDB equal to half BAB, reduce by armour check penalty), magical healing only converts damage to subdual (if you allow it)... Some monsters become true terrors. For example, things with DR, incorporeality, regeneration, etc.
Jell_Moo 09-28-05, 09:41 AM	Monte Cook has a book called Iron Heroes which is a pretty good representation of Low Magic. One idea I liked for a Low Magic world was that any primary caster levels must be interchanged with non-caster levels. For example: A player can play a Wizard if he wants to, but every other level must be taken in a non casting class.
Clawhound 09-28-05, 09:48 AM	In the iron age, steel hasn't been developed yet, along with a host of other tech innovations. Likewise, what magic hasn't been invented? Determining which spells don't exists will greatly effect your game. I highly suggest that you eliminate all area-of-effect damage spells. I suggest that you put prerequisites on any spellcasting class. For instance, D20 modern requires that you be a 4th level character before you can pick up a spellcastiing class. Go read some "what's wrong with fighter" threads. Take a look at "iron heroes".
Illion the Red 09-28-05, 10:04 AM	In the iron age, steel hasn't been developed yet, along with a host of other tech innovations. Indeed, if all available weapons are iron, bronze, stone, or bone, expect the weapons to do less damage than "normal" D&D weapons, and also remember to remove a great many weapons altogether. For instance, the crossbow should not exist. A longbow would be an exotic weapon and finding one would be a rare occasion at best. Instead of most common magical weapons, introduce steel as the "equivalent" of masterwork in baseline D&D. It should do full damage and that would be nearly the equivalent of a magical weapon in such a setting. Magic should not be as refined and should be restricted to a shamainstic class. Mind you, this is all well and good if you are looking for a more realistic feel to an Iron Age campaign. It all needs to be balanced against fun. How it all fits is ultimately up to the DM.
Nevynxxx 09-28-05, 10:28 AM	A longbow would be an exotic weapon and finding one would be a rare occasion at best. What's your basis for this? A bow is a bent stick, a longbow just a slightly modified bent stick. You don't need post-iorn age tools to make a box, or even a composite bow. I would say the composites should be rare but now your average bow/longbow.
revnk 09-28-05, 11:26 AM	What's your basis for this? A bow is a bent stick, a longbow just a slightly modified bent stick. You don't need post-iorn age tools to make a box, or even a composite bow. I would say the composites should be rare but now your average bow/longbow. I think Illion is thinking in terms of the English longbow used at Agincourt, which was a medieval weapon--and thus exotic in iron age terms. The English longbow is generally considered the model for D&D longbows, while the smaller bows of the Middle East are considered models for the D&D shortbow. I think a DM could go either way on this one, dependng on whether he felt the D&D longbow was closer to the African, American, Asian or European versions, since cultures on each of these continents came up with longbow variants made of different woods and created in different ways at different times--the DM might want to refine the stats (especially the range categories) based on what kind of longbow was being used. It would be something to do some research and thinking on. In any case, the "slightly modified" part of what Nevynxxx said is the tricky part. The longbow may seem like a bent stick, but all of the cultures that used one had to experiment with available woods, carving methods, curing methods, etc. in order to find the best way to carve the best wood into the best shape (something with good tension that a man could pull without breaking). The fact that it's simple doesn't mean it's not ingenious and didn't take ages to refine. Anyway, there's my $.02. Or maybe less. :D
crossbow 09-28-05, 03:34 PM	Just a few things. First, for a low magic campaign, iron age, look into some of the Celtic/Germanic histories. Tribal societies, small towns and an agrarian culture are some of the hallmarks. Read Beowulf if you haven’t yet. Take up the suggestion to massively limit or completely get rid of most direct damage spells. In the folk tales, you don’t see many magicians casting fireballs but charms and curses are common as are divinations. Make good use of prophesy if you can, it will add to the feel. Second, as to magic items and healing potions, have magic items be quite rare and reasonably powerful. I don’t know about anyone else out there but when the saga’s and folk tales talk about a magical sword, I don’t think of a +1 long sword. The sword should have a name and a history and a legacy. Healing potions are hit and miss. I think it’s fine to give out one on rare occasion but by and large, stick with changing the healing rules and the suggestion of a poultice that changes lethal to non-lethal. Third, flavor. To comply with the low magic setting where getting hurt sucks and takes time to heal, you will also want to limit how often adventures happen and spread them out over months instead of days. If a brave band of heroes defends their king and village from dreaded monsters twice or three times a year, they are doing pretty good in my book. This allows the characters time to heal and accomplish other tasks, like making masterwork items, which should be the alternative to the standard +1 blade you get in D&D. And lastly, a few historical inaccuracies. Iron and steel go hand in hand. Any time you heat iron up on coal and whack it with a hammer, you are creating a little bit of steel. Most knives and swords of the period had a thin sheathing of steel (low grade) due to the working of the metal or had a specially made steel edge that was forged into the blade. In the pre-viking iron age culture this was quite common. It wasn’t called the iron age because people didn’t have steel, it was called the iron age because they had learned to truly use iron and it was usurping the place of bronze. As to damage dealt, a bronze sword is quite as good as an iron sword for killing someone. The big difference is that iron is much tougher and more durable than any brass or bronze. It holds its edge longer and isn’t as likely to bend in the middle of combat. It’s not about the damage dealt, it’s about the durability of the weapon. And bows and crossbows. The D&D longbow is just as period for the iron age as it is for the middle ages. Numerous bows of more than five feet in length have been found from northern Russia, Anglo-Saxon England and Germany. These bows would all be representatives of the standard longbow while to get the true English longbow, I suggest getting one with a strength modifier. You have to be fairly strong to pull a 90 pound bow (on the low side for an English longbow) and very strong indeed to pull a 120. Oh, and the crossbow was used in China long before iron became common, at least 400 bc. Not that it matters for Europe. Just my thoughts on things. crossbow
Jell_Moo 09-28-05, 03:43 PM	Just a question: Why are people equating Low Magic with Low Technology? The two have nothing to do with one another. Having a higher tech level could offset some of the problems that a lower magic level creates.
revnk 09-28-05, 03:47 PM	Just a question: Why are people equating Low Magic with Low Technology? The two have nothing to do with one another. Having a higher tech level could offset some of the problems that a lower magic level creates. The OP wants to do both: low-magic and low-tech. I had to re-read the top post to notice that, myself. Crossbow, thanks for the historical reminders and advice. Nice post.
Illion the Red 09-28-05, 03:51 PM	Just a question: Why are people equating Low Magic with Low Technology? The two have nothing to do with one another. Having a higher tech level could offset some of the problems that a lower magic level creates. This is why... I am thinking of developing a low magic low to middle relevant technology world, i.e. early Iron Age type world.
Jell_Moo 09-28-05, 03:54 PM	You know, I think I'll just shut up now...
revnk 09-28-05, 03:59 PM	You know, I think I'll just shut up now... No! I wasn't trying to slam you or anything, and it doesn't sound like Illion was either! It was an easy thing to miss. Come on in and set a spell, and if you have any input, throw it in. ;)
Illion the Red 09-28-05, 04:03 PM	No! I wasn't trying to slam you or anything, and it doesn't sound like Illion was either! It was an easy thing to miss. Come on in and set a spell, and if you have any input, throw it in. ;) Too true. I have never (to my memory) slammed anyone on these boards. If I have, it certainly was not intentional. Any appearance of such is a misunderstanding and I apologize for it :) Continued discourse is the best way for new and better ideas to come out of the woodwork...
Vharuck 09-28-05, 04:46 PM	Would normal races' societies be low magic or will the challenges (monsters, traps, puzzles) be low magic as well? If both are, I'd look into removing the wizard and cleric class. Instead of wizards (since magical scrolls will be rare and the idea of studying and researching complex magic seems out of place where magic is only a small force) players would use sorcerers. Might I throw in my suggestion of making sorcerers a little more powerful by upping their Hit Die to d6 and skill points to (4+Int). Instead of clerics, just use the sorcerer class and say that instead of knowing spells from the sor/wiz list, they know spells from the cleric list (if you have Complete Divine, there's a class called Favored Soul that basically does this but seems a bit more angel-/devil-oriented) and then let them choose one cleric Domain. They get the domain's bonus ability and are allowed to know spells from the Domain's list (maybe require them to learn spells from the Domain's list). When rolling or deciding on treasure, avoid the boring magic items. Sure, you can describe the rogue's uncanny silence while walking in his styling boots of elvenkind, but if that's the only magic item he has, it's gonna get the "meh" response. I suggest items like the feather tokens, bag of tricks, hand of the mage, elixir of fire breath, wand of so and so, ring of sustenance, and so on. Though the specific magic armor and weapons are cool, as was said before, a +1 longsword would be wielded by a city-state's champion while a +1 flaming greataxe is the stuff of legends. All weapons should have cool names, generally be heirlooms, and be crafted to be both practical and stunningly gorgeous. A magical longsword will not just look like a glowing longsword. Ex: "The Lightning Blade's name is known throughout the lands surrounding the Gray Marsh. Many generations ago, a great beast rose from its slumber beneath the stagnant waters of the marsh, hungry after years of dormancy. The monster, a lizard as big as a house and with a dozen heads swaying on long and sinewy necks, razed half the village of Graymist. But the legendary champion Mok the Mighty, an orc warrior who lived in the Gray Marsh, felled the hydra with both his inhuman strength and his blade which sizzled as lightning arced from it to the hydra.. But, even as the beast sank beneath the waters into one of the nearly-bottomless black pits the Gray Marshes are known for, one of its headless necks wrapped around Mok's leg. Though he struggled, straining his massive muscles, Mok was woefully dragged down to a watery grave in the wretched swamp. However, those who saw Mok's valiant death say that, as he flailed wildly for a hold on anything before disappearing forever, the Lightning Blade was not in Mok's grip. If this is true, then the great sword lies hidden beneath the murky waters of the Gray Marsh, awaiting a valiant hero to raise it once more in glorious battle." The Lightning Blade is a +1 shocking bastard sword. Its dark wooden haft resembles a shocker lizard with the grip its body and the pommel the head. The blade of the sword is a long, sporadic zig-zag crafted to resemble a bolt of lightning coming from the shocker lizard's mouth. Long and detailed, yes. Will the party fighter appreciate the weapon more? Oh yeah. Magical items aren't found as loot. You quest for them. Many opponents aren't dangerous because they're powerful but instead because they wield a powerful item. Two more things I want to suggest: 1) City-states. Large nations are normally impossible to establish during times like these. Most people are raised in a tribal culture and will rarely experience another tribe, let alone be expected to tolerate them. What I see as a happy medium between realism and "what's good for the game" is the existence of city-states. Like Athens or Sparta, these are normally heavily-fortified cities of a decent size filled with temples, political buildings, fancy shops, inns, and a marketplace. They were called city-states because the only city in the nation was the namesake city, but the nation's political reach extended out to encompass neighboring farms, shrines, and other places where people might be. All events of great importance took place within the city, be they elections (or coronations depending on the government), trials (usually only cases of great significance saw trial and were judged by the ruler), marriages, marketdays, or entertainment. A city-state style of nations should both reinforce the lack of technology (no communication systems and poorly-structured militaries prevented nations from securing and maintaining distant lands) while still allowing the existence of necessary locals for the PCs (an inn, gathered shopkeepers, a tavern, temples, etc). 2) Alternate materials. The good thing about fantasy is that you can make up anything. Want a good alternative to iron weapons (-1 to attack and damage) without altering the entire world? Create a special type of material that is hard to find, harder to work, and bestows minor magical properties to anything made of it. Such as bloodwood from the rare crimson tree called the Blood Ash. Bloodwood, though not as hard or as sturdy as iron, is used often to make clubs or staves for use in armies. Whenever a person is killed by a blow from a bloodwood weapon, the wielder regains 1d4 hp. Really, not an amazing ability but still cool and I'm sure you can come up with pretty good ones, too.
crossbow 09-28-05, 06:39 PM	Revnk, I try and be helpful. Now and again I manage. ;) Glad you liked the post. Vharuck, Yes, the Lightningblade is the sort of thing I'm talking about for weapons. And questing for them. Good suggestions. crossbow
Jell_Moo 09-28-05, 06:46 PM	Not a worry at all guys, I didn't feel 'slammed' in the least. I was just being cheeky. ;) Just giving myself a big ol' "duh" for not seeing the low tech part of the post. :D
AcidAngel 09-29-05, 03:54 AM	The low tech / low magic would have more to do, in my idea, with the level of development in civilization. That is why alchemy was more an art of the renaissance than any other period. Whereas ritual occult magic was more an art of the middle ages, as is seen in the witch burnings and cures for the plague. i.e. the more civilized a people/nation are the more conceptual ideas there are, therefore more technological/philosophical development. That is why the 20th centaury saw more technological development than any other time period in history. It also saw the ever increasing speed with witch information is exchanged, i.e. the Internet and this very forum. But then again the 20th centaury was not the best example of human civilization. But that is beside the point. http://www.dcrouzet.net/d20highlands/ http://www.eyrurpg.com/ http://hyboria.xoth.net/index.htm These sites have also given me a few ideas. I’m looking to create a Mesopotamian feel; more like “The Epic of Gilgamesh” The Class ideas I had are: Prerequisites of spell casters would be maybe to take a level or two in Adept The Druid more like a shaman, with ritual spirit magic. Clerics as cultists. Also the ruling theocracy social class. Wizards/ sorcerers would have to make a fort save against their spell save DC or suffer a taint or insanity effect (Unearthed Arcane) The sorcerer would be more prevalent than wizards. Literacy would be a requirement to take wizard. Writing would have a new invention feel. The witch class [DMG] would be more prevalent. I was thinking of making the Bard a prestige class, sort of compressing the level ability gains. Maybe also for other arcane casters. There would be no Paladins, maybe as a gods champion prestige class. Barbarian would also be more prevalent Fighters would need a level or two of warrior. Rangers would need a level or two of warrior or adept Rogues would need a level or two of expert. Monks would be rare, maybe also a prestige class. Alignment would not be so fixed, with a generic variant on alignment specific spells. With a healthy limitation on spells, as has been suggested. On a case-by-case basis. There would be no good vs. evil as such. But more like a motivation basis for adventures. Heavy armors would be removed. Scale mail and Banded mail would be exotic armor No Breastplate. Something like that. I like the idea of longbows being exotic, but maybe the composite versions. Short bows would be more the default ranged weapon. Maybe the light crossbow would be an exotic weapon. There would be no real kingdoms, more like affiliated city states like in Greece during the Persian invasion. The distances between would be vast. So wilderness encounters would be more regular. The idea of increasing monsters CR’s is a good one, especially because magical healing would be harder to attain. Would you really want to ask the tyrannical despot ruler of a city-state for a potion of cure light wounds? The herbal/heal checks are also a good and useful idea. Horses would only be for the wealthy. Maybe; I’m not to sure on this one. Literacy rates would be very low. Masterwork items would be more highly prized. Magic items would be more demi-artifacts than dished out on a regular basis as standard treasure items. These are a few ideas in my head. Kind of a grittier harsher feel. Vharuck has a good idea for the feel I am going for. Thanks. :) Thank you everyone for you’re input; please keep posting ideas and comments. :D Pleas excuse me if I appear rambling and incoherent. :thinks:
Nevynxxx 09-29-05, 04:01 AM	I think Illion is thinking in terms of the English longbow used at Agincourt, which was a medieval weapon--and thus exotic in iron age terms. The English longbow is generally considered the model for D&D longbows, while the smaller bows of the Middle East are considered models for the D&D shortbow. I think a DM could go either way on this one, dependng on whether he felt the D&D longbow was closer to the African, American, Asian or European versions, since cultures on each of these continents came up with longbow variants made of different woods and created in different ways at different times--the DM might want to refine the stats (especially the range categories) based on what kind of longbow was being used. It would be something to do some research and thinking on. In any case, the "slightly modified" part of what Nevynxxx said is the tricky part. The longbow may seem like a bent stick, but all of the cultures that used one had to experiment with available woods, carving methods, curing methods, etc. in order to find the best way to carve the best wood into the best shape (something with good tension that a man could pull without breaking). The fact that it's simple doesn't mean it's not ingenious and didn't take ages to refine. Anyway, there's my $.02. Or maybe less. :D True, the English, yew longbow is a medieval weapon. Most of it's qualities come from the need to make a lot of bows quickly, and to penetrate full plate armour. The longbow is not. Look into the history of bows. They have been around since the stone age, let alone the iron age. Gengis Kahn's horse archers used composite shortbows, in the early iorn age (i think, possibly boardering on bronze age, but I could be way out). The power of these weapons rivals the english yew bow. Fact is you can make a bow entirely using stone tools, it take a little longer, but its not hard, and was done well before the iorn age.
Gilean 09-29-05, 11:42 AM	I wouldn't harm fighters, rangers nor rogues. I say that you should remove full casting classes and create numerous version of bard (such as the savage bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantS avageBard) to replace full casters. Just change them more.
crossbow 09-29-05, 01:24 PM	Nevynxxx, You are on the money with the composite horse bows for Genghis Kahn’s troops but you are a little off on the timing. Genghis Kahn’s troops rolled into Russia in the early 1250’s AD (I think it was 1253 but I may be off by a year or two), well after the bronze age. The composite bows they used were horn backed and recurved and quite powerful but without the high draw weights required by the English long bow. The horn backing and recurve allows the energy of the draw to be stored and transferred more efficiently than a straight stick long bow. AcidAngel, If you are thinking Mesopotamian / Gilgamesh, go solid bronze age with a few very expensive iron trinkets thrown in as something special. I like the idea of a low magic, epic heroes of Greece sort of feel to what you are working on. crossbow
Chobemaster 09-29-05, 01:44 PM	Nevynxxx, You are on the money with the composite horse bows for Genghis Kahn’s troops but you are a little off on the timing. Genghis Kahn’s troops rolled into Russia in the early 1250’s AD (I think it was 1253 but I may be off by a year or two), well after the bronze age. The composite bows they used were horn backed and recurved and quite powerful but without the high draw weights required by the English long bow. The horn backing and recurve allows the energy of the draw to be stored and transferred more efficiently than a straight stick long bow. Correct on GK (actually I think it was more like 1238, but anyway) but composite horsebows were around for a long time BEFORE GK, also. Scythians had the same bow, and they were certainly a bronze age culture
revnk 09-29-05, 04:47 PM	Wizards/ sorcerers would have to make a fort save against their spell save DC or suffer a taint or insanity effect (Unearthed Arcane) The sorcerer would be more prevalent than wizards. Literacy would be a requirement to take wizard. Writing would have a new invention feel. If you have Lords Of Madness, you might want to consider tying spellcasting classes to Aberrant Blood or another Aberrant Feat as a prereq.
Sulaco 09-29-05, 05:37 PM	My world is relatively low-magic owing in large part to the way magic works in the setting. Magical items are quite rare. To compensate, I have made "standard" enchanted weapons (the +1 to +5 ones) actually enhanced masterwork items. They cost the same and function the same but they are non-magical in origin, the best work of the best smiths. Even a "lowly" +2 sword is a coveted item - often as much for the creator as the weapon itself - and has it's own lineage and history. One option I have been considering but which I haven't yet decided on is to make every magical item unique: so there would be a cloak of invisibility, a vorpal sword, a ring of wishes, etc., but that might be going a bit too far.
crossbow 09-29-05, 06:07 PM	Correct on GK (actually I think it was more like 1238, but anyway) but composite horsebows were around for a long time BEFORE GK, also. Scythians had the same bow, and they were certainly a bronze age culture I'd forgotten about the Scythians, good call. A culture like theirs could make a great set of barbarian horse lords on the steps of civilization. Their gold work alone could make them stand out, not to mention their burial practices. Imagine going across the plains and up into the mountains to raid some kurgan of its treasures. There could be horsemen to face, gryphons (the Scythians, as far as I know, were the first to use the gryphon motif) swooping down out of the sky and when you do finally get to the burial mound, the owner and his sacrificed horses rise up to protect their treasure. Now that sounds like some serious bronze age fun to me. And you are correct, 1237, Batu Kahn invaded Russia. I need to check my books more often. :) crossbow