Advices Needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advices Needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
IronFistedGiant
05-26-06, 09:26 PM Greetings folks,

I'm IronFistedGiant. I've been 'stalking' this forum for a while and found many useful informations so I thought I'd register and share what is on my mind. No need for crunchy details, I'll go straight to the point.

I'm a new Dungeon Master and I will be managing a campaign of 4 players using undetermined classes(for now). I'm a new DM myself but I went on a shopping spree to gather as much books and informations as I possible can. Obviously, I cannot use them all and I'm not a sponge, I can't absorb all those books. The campaign setting is, obviously, Dungeon and Dragons(No Eberron or Forgotten Realms) with restriction to 'base' races(Elves, Halflings, Humans and so on). My dilemma is this: Which book should I consider using, besides the core(DM's Guide & Player's Handbook), if I want a well-balanced campaign? To ease the task, here is a list of the books I've got.

-Dungeon Master's Guide
-Player's Handbook
-Book of Exalted Deeds
-Complete Adventurer
-Complete Arcane
-Complete Divine
-Complete Warrior
-Deities and Demigods
-Draconomicon
-Epic Level Handbook
-Expanded Psionics Handbook
-Fiend Folio
-Frostburn
-Libris Mortis
-Lords of Madness
-Manuals of the Planes
-Monster Manual
-Monster Manual II
-Monster Manual III
-Planar Handbook
-Races of Destiny
-Races of Stone
-Races of the Wild
-Unearthed Arcana
-Player's Handbook II
-Tome of Pact Magic, Shadow and Truename Magic

Called me a spoiled brat if you must and feel free to ask for more details.
AlanBruce
05-26-06, 09:57 PM All those are very good books, but believe me when I tell you: the inclusion of all those supplements at the the level of DM you have stated to possess at the moment, will only bring forth much chaos. I don't know how experienced your players are, but the DM needs to be the ultimate law when it comes down to what rules apply, and from which books. My suggestion would be to read those books between sessions, but for now introduce only the three core books (DMG, PHB, MMI). As you get accostumed to the rules contained in those three and your players advance in level and confidence, slowly begin introducing the next book, followed by a few sessions with that new book, then repeat the process.
SilentOne
05-26-06, 09:58 PM The Complete and Races books are a good start too look at in introducing to a game; they've got good crunchy bits, and fluff that helps establish a basis for thing.

One thing I would avoid would be the BoED. The warning is very true: Only for mature audiences. Be prepared for many debates on what exactly is good, how many babies an exalted character can slaughter before becoming merely good... etc.

By the way, MMI is core as well (book 2 I think), and very good if you want a nice variety in your encounters. You might also consider MM2 and MM3, for the same reason, but don't feel that you need everything at once. Just pick out what you want.
IronFistedGiant
05-26-06, 10:11 PM My campaign's main characters are restricted to basic 7 so The Races books would probably be used to enhance NPCs encounters. The best course of action, in my opinion, would be using the Core Books and spice things up with the Complete books and the Monster Manuals for the sake of diversifying encounters depending on the situation. A good idea?

My players are mostly novices and most only tryed an adventure here and there. They know the basics but that's pretty much it.

I love to plan ahead. If I don't, I go crazy, lol. Don't get me wrong, I'm part of an improvisation team so I can improvise as I go or if they things don't go as I planned originally. Before each sessions, I'll probably plan the random encounters and anything they could encounter from traps to treasures and also monsters from the main storyline for the sake of fluidity and speed.
Edwind
05-26-06, 10:43 PM First up, I don't know if you already know this but, before you start the game make sure you are well versed in the rules. I made the mistake of only reading half the DMG and starting the game, what an odd game that was. Anyways, using the Races series for NPC upgrades is a good idea, maybe let them look at their chosen races culture and such to give them a better grasp of what they should kinda be shooting for, but thats only if you really RP in your game. Since they're novices, expect that they may just wanna rip **** up for an adventure or two. Eventually if you want RP in your game you could ease them into it.

I'd limit the amount of reading they could have in the Complete series and run it "Core Only" until you and they think they could handle the flow of more feats/spells/PrCs.

I also agree with the above. I wouldn't combine BoED into your game until they have grown to understand what "good" pretty much stands for. Try and discurage any of your players from trying to play an exalted character if one of them does get ahold of the book cause they may not be ready for it.

Expect a possible Hack&Slash first game, so have lots of battles. Maybe arm them with a wand of CLW shortly down the road if any of them can use them.

It's great to have another join our ranks. Hope you're games turn out great.
Nate Jones
05-26-06, 10:56 PM You also might want to consider using the PHB 2. While you might want to just ignore some of the extra variants (Or maybe not), it gives sound advice for helping new players create well-rounded characters. I highly advise using it for these pointers, if nothing else.
IronFistedGiant
05-26-06, 11:01 PM The key factor in my situation is that they don't have access to my books and they ignore the fact that I have the Book of Exalted Deeds, amongst others. As advised, I'll keep it out of the way to avoid...big messes, so to speak.

I've been reading the Player's Handbook(I and II) as well as the Dungeon Master's Guide for a week or so and I'm getting the hang of the various rules, feats, skills and spells....enough to give my players a good idea of the said stuff. I expect them to charge at me saying stuff like 'I want to play a Fighter, what should I pick?' so I'm trying to touch a bit of everything.

Less talk, more action early on? I know that half of my group are RPG(VG) fans and will probably get annoyed if there is too much fighting so I'll try to balance it out to avoiding boring one half.

The Complete books will be for my personal use until they are ready to get more feats and the likes or maybe add a small amount of features(Not feats) that could apply later in the campaign when the characters are more experience. Now let's see if I've got a good plan of action as to what to use. Based on advices:

-The Core Books
-Player's Handbook II (extension & customization)
-Monster Manual II and III (customizing encounters)
-The Complete (later on)
-The Races (NPCs usage)

Seems like a pretty good setup for my campaign. Great customization, great versatility for enemies encounters, a good dose of unknow mysteries and next-to-unlimited possibilities.
Nate Jones
05-26-06, 11:21 PM You should feel free at any point to integrate fluff and what not from any of your books, so don't restrict yourself too much. In terms of mechanics (Feats, skills, classes and whatnot), I think your list is near perfection.

One other tidbit, from my experience. For your first adventure, keep a limited scope. Plan, maybe to run the characters from 1st - 6th level or so. Let the players know this in advance too. Then use an excellerated leveling scheme, say award 200% normal experience. I've found this allows players to experience a greater range of power in their introduction, allowing them to pick up on basic rules, before giving them the chance to start all over, after they've figured things out a bit.

Say for example, your first player Janis, decides rogues are teh uber. But after playing for a bit, he begins to realize the weakness of their low hitpoints or the hoops they have to jump through to use sneak attack. Turns out Janis, after seeing all these characters and mechanics in action, feels he would much rather play a fighter. Besides, the party has made some pretty stupid decisions (Spending all their money on a 'victory' yacht), not to mention all the misaquired feats. Allowing them to start over in a deeper, richer campaign, affords them the opportunity choice begotten of experience, but not at the expense of trudging through months of sub-optimal play. And on the plus side, a player who really loved his choice can tweak it a bit, and then have another go.
IronFistedGiant
05-26-06, 11:26 PM Are you suggesting some kind of trial adventure? Accelerating leveling-ups so they get to grab the idea of a balance characters and see what they really like to play? I think it's a good idea but I'm a new Dungeon Master so anyone else backing up that idea?
ashcat_lt
05-27-06, 01:06 AM It's pretty good idea, actually. If everybody's having fun, though, and really into the campaign by 6th level you should keep on going.

I would like to reiterate what somebody else said too. I think that the fluffy parts of the Races books should definitely be open to the players. Maybe even required reading. Especially if your players are into heavy role-playing. It will help them get into things if they have an idea of the cultural background of typical members of their race.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IronFistedGiant 05-26-06, 09:26 PM	Greetings folks, I'm IronFistedGiant. I've been 'stalking' this forum for a while and found many useful informations so I thought I'd register and share what is on my mind. No need for crunchy details, I'll go straight to the point. I'm a new Dungeon Master and I will be managing a campaign of 4 players using undetermined classes(for now). I'm a new DM myself but I went on a shopping spree to gather as much books and informations as I possible can. Obviously, I cannot use them all and I'm not a sponge, I can't absorb all those books. The campaign setting is, obviously, Dungeon and Dragons(No Eberron or Forgotten Realms) with restriction to 'base' races(Elves, Halflings, Humans and so on). My dilemma is this: Which book should I consider using, besides the core(DM's Guide & Player's Handbook), if I want a well-balanced campaign? To ease the task, here is a list of the books I've got. -Dungeon Master's Guide -Player's Handbook -Book of Exalted Deeds -Complete Adventurer -Complete Arcane -Complete Divine -Complete Warrior -Deities and Demigods -Draconomicon -Epic Level Handbook -Expanded Psionics Handbook -Fiend Folio -Frostburn -Libris Mortis -Lords of Madness -Manuals of the Planes -Monster Manual -Monster Manual II -Monster Manual III -Planar Handbook -Races of Destiny -Races of Stone -Races of the Wild -Unearthed Arcana -Player's Handbook II -Tome of Pact Magic, Shadow and Truename Magic Called me a spoiled brat if you must and feel free to ask for more details.
AlanBruce 05-26-06, 09:57 PM	All those are very good books, but believe me when I tell you: the inclusion of all those supplements at the the level of DM you have stated to possess at the moment, will only bring forth much chaos. I don't know how experienced your players are, but the DM needs to be the ultimate law when it comes down to what rules apply, and from which books. My suggestion would be to read those books between sessions, but for now introduce only the three core books (DMG, PHB, MMI). As you get accostumed to the rules contained in those three and your players advance in level and confidence, slowly begin introducing the next book, followed by a few sessions with that new book, then repeat the process.
SilentOne 05-26-06, 09:58 PM	The Complete and Races books are a good start too look at in introducing to a game; they've got good crunchy bits, and fluff that helps establish a basis for thing. One thing I would avoid would be the BoED. The warning is very true: Only for mature audiences. Be prepared for many debates on what exactly is good, how many babies an exalted character can slaughter before becoming merely good... etc. By the way, MMI is core as well (book 2 I think), and very good if you want a nice variety in your encounters. You might also consider MM2 and MM3, for the same reason, but don't feel that you need everything at once. Just pick out what you want.
IronFistedGiant 05-26-06, 10:11 PM	My campaign's main characters are restricted to basic 7 so The Races books would probably be used to enhance NPCs encounters. The best course of action, in my opinion, would be using the Core Books and spice things up with the Complete books and the Monster Manuals for the sake of diversifying encounters depending on the situation. A good idea? My players are mostly novices and most only tryed an adventure here and there. They know the basics but that's pretty much it. I love to plan ahead. If I don't, I go crazy, lol. Don't get me wrong, I'm part of an improvisation team so I can improvise as I go or if they things don't go as I planned originally. Before each sessions, I'll probably plan the random encounters and anything they could encounter from traps to treasures and also monsters from the main storyline for the sake of fluidity and speed.
Edwind 05-26-06, 10:43 PM	First up, I don't know if you already know this but, before you start the game make sure you are well versed in the rules. I made the mistake of only reading half the DMG and starting the game, what an odd game that was. Anyways, using the Races series for NPC upgrades is a good idea, maybe let them look at their chosen races culture and such to give them a better grasp of what they should kinda be shooting for, but thats only if you really RP in your game. Since they're novices, expect that they may just wanna rip **** up for an adventure or two. Eventually if you want RP in your game you could ease them into it. I'd limit the amount of reading they could have in the Complete series and run it "Core Only" until you and they think they could handle the flow of more feats/spells/PrCs. I also agree with the above. I wouldn't combine BoED into your game until they have grown to understand what "good" pretty much stands for. Try and discurage any of your players from trying to play an exalted character if one of them does get ahold of the book cause they may not be ready for it. Expect a possible Hack&Slash first game, so have lots of battles. Maybe arm them with a wand of CLW shortly down the road if any of them can use them. It's great to have another join our ranks. Hope you're games turn out great.
Nate Jones 05-26-06, 10:56 PM	You also might want to consider using the PHB 2. While you might want to just ignore some of the extra variants (Or maybe not), it gives sound advice for helping new players create well-rounded characters. I highly advise using it for these pointers, if nothing else.
IronFistedGiant 05-26-06, 11:01 PM	The key factor in my situation is that they don't have access to my books and they ignore the fact that I have the Book of Exalted Deeds, amongst others. As advised, I'll keep it out of the way to avoid...big messes, so to speak. I've been reading the Player's Handbook(I and II) as well as the Dungeon Master's Guide for a week or so and I'm getting the hang of the various rules, feats, skills and spells....enough to give my players a good idea of the said stuff. I expect them to charge at me saying stuff like 'I want to play a Fighter, what should I pick?' so I'm trying to touch a bit of everything. Less talk, more action early on? I know that half of my group are RPG(VG) fans and will probably get annoyed if there is too much fighting so I'll try to balance it out to avoiding boring one half. The Complete books will be for my personal use until they are ready to get more feats and the likes or maybe add a small amount of features(Not feats) that could apply later in the campaign when the characters are more experience. Now let's see if I've got a good plan of action as to what to use. Based on advices: -The Core Books -Player's Handbook II (extension & customization) -Monster Manual II and III (customizing encounters) -The Complete (later on) -The Races (NPCs usage) Seems like a pretty good setup for my campaign. Great customization, great versatility for enemies encounters, a good dose of unknow mysteries and next-to-unlimited possibilities.
Nate Jones 05-26-06, 11:21 PM	You should feel free at any point to integrate fluff and what not from any of your books, so don't restrict yourself too much. In terms of mechanics (Feats, skills, classes and whatnot), I think your list is near perfection. One other tidbit, from my experience. For your first adventure, keep a limited scope. Plan, maybe to run the characters from 1st - 6th level or so. Let the players know this in advance too. Then use an excellerated leveling scheme, say award 200% normal experience. I've found this allows players to experience a greater range of power in their introduction, allowing them to pick up on basic rules, before giving them the chance to start all over, after they've figured things out a bit. Say for example, your first player Janis, decides rogues are teh uber. But after playing for a bit, he begins to realize the weakness of their low hitpoints or the hoops they have to jump through to use sneak attack. Turns out Janis, after seeing all these characters and mechanics in action, feels he would much rather play a fighter. Besides, the party has made some pretty stupid decisions (Spending all their money on a 'victory' yacht), not to mention all the misaquired feats. Allowing them to start over in a deeper, richer campaign, affords them the opportunity choice begotten of experience, but not at the expense of trudging through months of sub-optimal play. And on the plus side, a player who really loved his choice can tweak it a bit, and then have another go.
IronFistedGiant 05-26-06, 11:26 PM	Are you suggesting some kind of trial adventure? Accelerating leveling-ups so they get to grab the idea of a balance characters and see what they really like to play? I think it's a good idea but I'm a new Dungeon Master so anyone else backing up that idea?
ashcat_lt 05-27-06, 01:06 AM	It's pretty good idea, actually. If everybody's having fun, though, and really into the campaign by 6th level you should keep on going. I would like to reiterate what somebody else said too. I think that the fluffy parts of the Races books should definitely be open to the players. Maybe even required reading. Especially if your players are into heavy role-playing. It will help them get into things if they have an idea of the cultural background of typical members of their race.