Afterlife for evil characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Afterlife for evil characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mike the DM
10-05-03, 12:37 PM We all have an idea of what the afterlife looks like for good characters - places of profound serenity and inestimable beauty, peace and joy in abundance, reunion with lost friends and family, an eternity of bliss.

And then there's the afterlife for evil characters: an eternity as a human-faced grub in the muck and mire of an abyssal dungeon, food or plaything for a sadistic fiend.

Not much of an incentive to be evil, really.

With respect to the afterlife, I've looked at evil characters (PCs and NPCs both) as motivated by one of two things:

1. A total disregard for what happens in the afterlife - living solely in the here and now, these characters are determined to make their mark in life heedless of the consequences.

2. A belief that achieving power in life will somehow translate into an equal measure of power in the afterlife - if one's really bad enough, one can hope to become a balor or somesuch.

How do you handle the prospects in the afterlife for evil characters in your campaign?
Mister Mayhem
10-05-03, 01:42 PM I think the concept here is being coloured with our modern interpretation of the afterlife - God is good, therefore the good get rewarded, the bad get punished.

But most D&D worlds actually have a number of evil gods.

Who is to say that if an evil person commits acts in the name of an evil god, they are not rewarded by that god in death?
Mike the DM
10-05-03, 02:03 PM Originally posted by Mister Mayhem
Who is to say that if an evil person commits acts in the name of an evil god, they are not rewarded by that god in death?

IMC, temporally powerful evil characters hope to 'ascend' (or descend?!?) to fiendom in the afterlife - the princess rules her subjects with an iron hand the same way she hopes to rule a legion of devils in the afterlife, this being her reward from her deity (or so she hopes - after all, evil tends to be jealous and covetous and more than a little duplicitous). Either that, or they just don't give it a second thought - this is how less intelligent chaotic evil characters get through the day...

I'm wondering if others have a different approach to handling this in their campaigns.

Originally posted by Mister Mayhem
I think the concept here is being coloured with our modern interpretation of the afterlife - God is good, therefore the good get rewarded, the bad get punished.

I think of it in terms of the alignment system more so than RL views of the afterlife. The example I wrote of a 'good' afterlife is admittedly overly simplistic - certainly "peace and tranquility" is not what the warriors of Valhalla look forward to each day, but an eternity of battle (or at least until Ragnarok) is their reward, and one which they gladly accept. And then their is the whole subject of rewards for neutral characters - joy and pain in equal measure?

I'm not suggesting that evil characters automatically face punishment for being evil - rather, what is the nature of their expected reward, if indeed they are rewarded for their acts in life? I've described something of the view I've taken IMCs - I'd like to hear how others have addressed this.
Ancient Wyrm
10-05-03, 02:06 PM I believe that in the core D&D cosmology, those who end up in the Nine Hells or the Abyss normally start out as lemures or dretches, and can climb their way up the ranks of fiendishness to eventually become something truly nasty. IIRC, characters who have had a prior agreement with a devil often start out at a slightly higher rank, like imp or maybe barbazu. Demons aren't really the deal-making type, though, so CE characters kind of get screwed.
Mike the DM
10-05-03, 02:46 PM Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm
I believe that in the core D&D cosmology, those who end up in the Nine Hells or the Abyss normally start out as lemures or dretches, and can climb their way up the ranks of fiendishness to eventually become something truly nasty. IIRC, characters who have had a prior agreement with a devil often start out at a slightly higher rank, like imp or maybe barbazu. Demons aren't really the deal-making type, though, so CE characters kind of get screwed.

That's correct, which is in part what got me to wondering awhile ago why some BBEG would go to all the trouble to conquer a multiverse only to end up as that "human-faced worm" under an archfiend's talon - surely there must be something more worthwhile than that to look forward to?!?

That's when the idea of becoming a powerful fiend in the afterlife became a part of the cosmology in my last campaign-world. In one campaign, the BBEG was once a powerful tyrant in life who was transformed into a pit fiend after death, and who decided to come back and resume his place at the head of his kingdom.

Now I'm developing a new campaign-world and I'm looking for something a little different...
Ancient Wyrm
10-05-03, 03:10 PM Well, it could be that there is a metaphysical balancing act going on, as well. Good characters restrain themselves and practice self-sacrifice, and in return have their desires fulfilled in the afterlife. Evil characters take what they want and indulge themselves, and so suffer after their death. It's a matter of when a character gets what he wants.

Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good? I hate to say it, but the material benefits of being evil far outweigh those of goodness.
Mike the DM
10-05-03, 03:28 PM Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm
Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good? I hate to say it, but the material benefits of being evil far outweigh those of goodness.

Or as Boris Badanov would say, "It's GOOD to be BAD!"

Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm
Well, it could be that there is a metaphysical balancing act going on, as well. Good characters restrain themselves and practice self-sacrifice, and in return have their desires fulfilled in the afterlife. Evil characters take what they want and indulge themselves, and so suffer after their death. It's a matter of when a character gets what he wants.

That makes good sense (pun intended...).

I would have to imagine that for the overwhelming number of evil beings in the multiverse, the afterlife is one of unending torment. But for the really powerful (and intelligent, and not insane), there must be some thought of "what comes after" and hope for what that might bring.

By the same token, I also picture Orcus sitting on his throne of bones, scrying some nefarious necromancer marching her army of the dead on the capital of the kingdom and saying to himself, "Hmmm...the kid's got potential. She just might make it to The Show."

;)
Mister Mayhem
10-05-03, 03:34 PM Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm
Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good?

People who are naturally inclined to be good? Besides, whilst Evil characters may be rewarded, I imagine that it is a significantly different reward , oe that a good person wouldn't enjoy. And conversely, the rewards of good may be ones that an evil person would find interminally dull.

Your question can equally be asked as "If being evil meant you were gauranteed to be tormented in hell for an eternity, who would be evil?"
the Horc
10-05-03, 05:15 PM I believe it works like the following: evil souls that were "the diet coke of evil", the lesser evil, generally get smacked around before being merged with the evil plane, get turned into soul currency, or eaten. The more hardcore evil is rewarded in the sense that they get to be turned into the lemures or the manes, or the stuff that is considered capable of promotion.

So I believe the evil planes reward their overachievers. And I believe the reason people are evil in life is because they don't actually think ahead, or at least think that by their willing and loyal servitude, and lying to the other followers on just what they can expect, these evil people can start out as a guy who is ahead in the afterlife.

I doubt any of these evil gods would actually tell their followers that bad stuff happens to them after a lifetime of service, except the high priests whom they tell that if they don't blow it, they get to start out ahead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mike the DM 10-05-03, 12:37 PM	We all have an idea of what the afterlife looks like for good characters - places of profound serenity and inestimable beauty, peace and joy in abundance, reunion with lost friends and family, an eternity of bliss. And then there's the afterlife for evil characters: an eternity as a human-faced grub in the muck and mire of an abyssal dungeon, food or plaything for a sadistic fiend. Not much of an incentive to be evil, really. With respect to the afterlife, I've looked at evil characters (PCs and NPCs both) as motivated by one of two things: 1. A total disregard for what happens in the afterlife - living solely in the here and now, these characters are determined to make their mark in life heedless of the consequences. 2. A belief that achieving power in life will somehow translate into an equal measure of power in the afterlife - if one's really bad enough, one can hope to become a balor or somesuch. How do you handle the prospects in the afterlife for evil characters in your campaign?
Mister Mayhem 10-05-03, 01:42 PM	I think the concept here is being coloured with our modern interpretation of the afterlife - God is good, therefore the good get rewarded, the bad get punished. But most D&D worlds actually have a number of evil gods. Who is to say that if an evil person commits acts in the name of an evil god, they are not rewarded by that god in death?
Mike the DM 10-05-03, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem Who is to say that if an evil person commits acts in the name of an evil god, they are not rewarded by that god in death? IMC, temporally powerful evil characters hope to 'ascend' (or descend?!?) to fiendom in the afterlife - the princess rules her subjects with an iron hand the same way she hopes to rule a legion of devils in the afterlife, this being her reward from her deity (or so she hopes - after all, evil tends to be jealous and covetous and more than a little duplicitous). Either that, or they just don't give it a second thought - this is how less intelligent chaotic evil characters get through the day... I'm wondering if others have a different approach to handling this in their campaigns. Originally posted by Mister Mayhem I think the concept here is being coloured with our modern interpretation of the afterlife - God is good, therefore the good get rewarded, the bad get punished. I think of it in terms of the alignment system more so than RL views of the afterlife. The example I wrote of a 'good' afterlife is admittedly overly simplistic - certainly "peace and tranquility" is not what the warriors of Valhalla look forward to each day, but an eternity of battle (or at least until Ragnarok) is their reward, and one which they gladly accept. And then their is the whole subject of rewards for neutral characters - joy and pain in equal measure? I'm not suggesting that evil characters automatically face punishment for being evil - rather, what is the nature of their expected reward, if indeed they are rewarded for their acts in life? I've described something of the view I've taken IMCs - I'd like to hear how others have addressed this.
Ancient Wyrm 10-05-03, 02:06 PM	I believe that in the core D&D cosmology, those who end up in the Nine Hells or the Abyss normally start out as lemures or dretches, and can climb their way up the ranks of fiendishness to eventually become something truly nasty. IIRC, characters who have had a prior agreement with a devil often start out at a slightly higher rank, like imp or maybe barbazu. Demons aren't really the deal-making type, though, so CE characters kind of get screwed.
Mike the DM 10-05-03, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm I believe that in the core D&D cosmology, those who end up in the Nine Hells or the Abyss normally start out as lemures or dretches, and can climb their way up the ranks of fiendishness to eventually become something truly nasty. IIRC, characters who have had a prior agreement with a devil often start out at a slightly higher rank, like imp or maybe barbazu. Demons aren't really the deal-making type, though, so CE characters kind of get screwed. That's correct, which is in part what got me to wondering awhile ago why some BBEG would go to all the trouble to conquer a multiverse only to end up as that "human-faced worm" under an archfiend's talon - surely there must be something more worthwhile than that to look forward to?!? That's when the idea of becoming a powerful fiend in the afterlife became a part of the cosmology in my last campaign-world. In one campaign, the BBEG was once a powerful tyrant in life who was transformed into a pit fiend after death, and who decided to come back and resume his place at the head of his kingdom. Now I'm developing a new campaign-world and I'm looking for something a little different...
Ancient Wyrm 10-05-03, 03:10 PM	Well, it could be that there is a metaphysical balancing act going on, as well. Good characters restrain themselves and practice self-sacrifice, and in return have their desires fulfilled in the afterlife. Evil characters take what they want and indulge themselves, and so suffer after their death. It's a matter of when a character gets what he wants. Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good? I hate to say it, but the material benefits of being evil far outweigh those of goodness.
Mike the DM 10-05-03, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good? I hate to say it, but the material benefits of being evil far outweigh those of goodness. Or as Boris Badanov would say, "It's GOOD to be BAD!" Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm Well, it could be that there is a metaphysical balancing act going on, as well. Good characters restrain themselves and practice self-sacrifice, and in return have their desires fulfilled in the afterlife. Evil characters take what they want and indulge themselves, and so suffer after their death. It's a matter of when a character gets what he wants. That makes good sense (pun intended...). I would have to imagine that for the overwhelming number of evil beings in the multiverse, the afterlife is one of unending torment. But for the really powerful (and intelligent, and not insane), there must be some thought of "what comes after" and hope for what that might bring. By the same token, I also picture Orcus sitting on his throne of bones, scrying some nefarious necromancer marching her army of the dead on the capital of the kingdom and saying to himself, "Hmmm...the kid's got potential. She just might make it to The Show." ;)
Mister Mayhem 10-05-03, 03:34 PM	Originally posted by Ancient Wyrm Think of it this way: if people were rewarded for being evil, who would be good? People who are naturally inclined to be good? Besides, whilst Evil characters may be rewarded, I imagine that it is a significantly different reward , oe that a good person wouldn't enjoy. And conversely, the rewards of good may be ones that an evil person would find interminally dull. Your question can equally be asked as "If being evil meant you were gauranteed to be tormented in hell for an eternity, who would be evil?"
the Horc 10-05-03, 05:15 PM	I believe it works like the following: evil souls that were "the diet coke of evil", the lesser evil, generally get smacked around before being merged with the evil plane, get turned into soul currency, or eaten. The more hardcore evil is rewarded in the sense that they get to be turned into the lemures or the manes, or the stuff that is considered capable of promotion. So I believe the evil planes reward their overachievers. And I believe the reason people are evil in life is because they don't actually think ahead, or at least think that by their willing and loyal servitude, and lying to the other followers on just what they can expect, these evil people can start out as a guy who is ahead in the afterlife. I doubt any of these evil gods would actually tell their followers that bad stuff happens to them after a lifetime of service, except the high priests whom they tell that if they don't blow it, they get to start out ahead.