Afterlife Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Afterlife Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ludwig
03-03-04, 06:44 PM One of my player's characters sold his soul for some magic powers. If he were to die, he would need to serve the buyer for the rest of time, as per the agreement. So my question is, if he died, could a spell like "Wish" or "Miracle" bring him back?:schemes:
Silimaure
03-03-04, 06:52 PM Depends who he sold his soul to, a god can stop a wish or miracle quite easily. Otherwise, that's a good question, and up to the dm. I myself would say yes, with the 5,000 exp cost, and the fact that you have an angry fiend, or whatever he sold it to, after them.
Burgundy Lotus
03-03-04, 06:58 PM I agree if the buyer wasn't a God of some sort then a wish or miracle would work, though I can't think who other than a God like being would need or be able to buy souls.
Lord Crimson
03-04-04, 02:13 AM The ba'atezu (devils) buy souls all the time. It's one of the ways they gain servants in the Nine Hells. They describe it a little in parts of the Forgotten Realms books.
Fixxxer
03-04-04, 02:25 AM The buying and selling of souls is generally a very important and serious thing in my games (it has to be, due to the stance of the god of death). I've always ruled that if you sell your soul, it is no longer yours and is therefore subject to the will of its new owner. As such, if you sold your soul to a devil and then died, you would have no choice if one of the various "bring back the dead" spells was cast on you (whereas normally, you know the alignment of the caster and have a choice whether to come back or not). The choice would default to the devil who owns your soul. This includes the use of other mortal magic, such as Miracle or Wish.
Grimbones
03-04-04, 08:28 AM And don't forget that Devils and Demons trade souls like so many flimsy pokemon cards.

Just because you sold your soul to a "fun" power doesn't mean you won't end up with someone much, much, much worse.

Asmodeus: "I'll tade you one fallen paladin for your halfling village."

Lolth: "Done! <cackling> That paladin really hacked me off back in the day."
Autosponge
03-04-04, 08:58 AM Lolth: "Ooo, he's shiny, is he a promo?"
Gingerbread Guy
03-04-04, 09:01 AM Hiho,

I would rule that a Wish or Miracle would be sufficient to undo the bargain, but only so long as the caster's level was higher than the equivalent caster level of whatever creature or being it was that purchased the character's soul. If it was a God or some stupidly high-level outsider or something, then squish - no deal.

~Ginger
Grimbones
03-04-04, 09:33 AM Originally posted by Autosponge
Lolth: "Ooo, he's shiny, is he a promo?"

:heehee :bow:
Millennium
03-04-04, 10:21 AM Originally posted by Gingerbread Guy
I would rule that a Wish or Miracle would be sufficient to undo the bargain, but only so long as the caster's level was higher than the equivalent caster level of whatever creature or being it was that purchased the character's soul. If it was a God or some stupidly high-level outsider or something, then squish - no deal.
I'd go a little further than that:
A Wish or Miracle case to undo the bargain will not bring the person back. It just ends the bargain, so that the person can then be brought back through normal means (including, potentially, a second Wish or Miracle).
Creatures buying souls do not like having their deals ended in this way, and will start sending minions after you -or possibly even come after you personally- to try and take back your soul by force.
Grimbones
03-04-04, 12:00 PM An Aside:

What powers did the character get for the sale of his little chunk of eternity?
Lord Crimson
03-05-04, 12:09 AM I was curious about that myself... I think I might craft a list of "pact powers" that PCs can get if they sell their souls...

Of course, my ruling would be closer to Fixxxer's idea. The soul's new owner gets to decide in cases of raise dead/resurrection. In the case of a wish/miracle, I would probably allow the PC to come back AGAINST the soul-owner's will.

But that doesn't sever the contract and it comes with ALL KINDS of nasty repercussions. Like being hunted to the ends of the planes by devil-assassins sent to bring the PC's soul back to Hell any way possible. Devils, one could assume, take this stuff pretty seriously.
Autosponge
03-05-04, 12:31 AM From planescape references and 3rd-party material (like Demonology) these contracts are like a minimum of 300 pages long. They are filled with catch-caluses meant to trap the person in circular logic and mire them in incredible detail. The whole point is that no matter what you do, your sould belongs to them, nothing will EVER change that. You're not going to outsmart a creature with genius IQ and a few millenia of practice with the contract game. In essense, it's the infernal con game. Mortals are just the marks.
Grimbones
03-05-04, 10:37 AM Soul for Sale, Sold!

Do you folks remember the old artifact generation tables out of the AD&D Dm's guide? Those might be good buys for a soul ... good drawbacks, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ludwig 03-03-04, 06:44 PM	One of my player's characters sold his soul for some magic powers. If he were to die, he would need to serve the buyer for the rest of time, as per the agreement. So my question is, if he died, could a spell like "Wish" or "Miracle" bring him back?:schemes:
Silimaure 03-03-04, 06:52 PM	Depends who he sold his soul to, a god can stop a wish or miracle quite easily. Otherwise, that's a good question, and up to the dm. I myself would say yes, with the 5,000 exp cost, and the fact that you have an angry fiend, or whatever he sold it to, after them.
Burgundy Lotus 03-03-04, 06:58 PM	I agree if the buyer wasn't a God of some sort then a wish or miracle would work, though I can't think who other than a God like being would need or be able to buy souls.
Lord Crimson 03-04-04, 02:13 AM	The ba'atezu (devils) buy souls all the time. It's one of the ways they gain servants in the Nine Hells. They describe it a little in parts of the Forgotten Realms books.
Fixxxer 03-04-04, 02:25 AM	The buying and selling of souls is generally a very important and serious thing in my games (it has to be, due to the stance of the god of death). I've always ruled that if you sell your soul, it is no longer yours and is therefore subject to the will of its new owner. As such, if you sold your soul to a devil and then died, you would have no choice if one of the various "bring back the dead" spells was cast on you (whereas normally, you know the alignment of the caster and have a choice whether to come back or not). The choice would default to the devil who owns your soul. This includes the use of other mortal magic, such as Miracle or Wish.
Grimbones 03-04-04, 08:28 AM	And don't forget that Devils and Demons trade souls like so many flimsy pokemon cards. Just because you sold your soul to a "fun" power doesn't mean you won't end up with someone much, much, much worse. Asmodeus: "I'll tade you one fallen paladin for your halfling village." Lolth: "Done! <cackling> That paladin really hacked me off back in the day."
Autosponge 03-04-04, 08:58 AM	Lolth: "Ooo, he's shiny, is he a promo?"
Gingerbread Guy 03-04-04, 09:01 AM	Hiho, I would rule that a Wish or Miracle would be sufficient to undo the bargain, but only so long as the caster's level was higher than the equivalent caster level of whatever creature or being it was that purchased the character's soul. If it was a God or some stupidly high-level outsider or something, then squish - no deal. ~Ginger
Grimbones 03-04-04, 09:33 AM	Originally posted by Autosponge Lolth: "Ooo, he's shiny, is he a promo?" :heehee :bow:
Millennium 03-04-04, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by Gingerbread Guy I would rule that a Wish or Miracle would be sufficient to undo the bargain, but only so long as the caster's level was higher than the equivalent caster level of whatever creature or being it was that purchased the character's soul. If it was a God or some stupidly high-level outsider or something, then squish - no deal. I'd go a little further than that: A Wish or Miracle case to undo the bargain will not bring the person back. It just ends the bargain, so that the person can then be brought back through normal means (including, potentially, a second Wish or Miracle). Creatures buying souls do not like having their deals ended in this way, and will start sending minions after you -or possibly even come after you personally- to try and take back your soul by force.
Grimbones 03-04-04, 12:00 PM	An Aside: What powers did the character get for the sale of his little chunk of eternity?
Lord Crimson 03-05-04, 12:09 AM	I was curious about that myself... I think I might craft a list of "pact powers" that PCs can get if they sell their souls... Of course, my ruling would be closer to Fixxxer's idea. The soul's new owner gets to decide in cases of raise dead/resurrection. In the case of a wish/miracle, I would probably allow the PC to come back AGAINST the soul-owner's will. But that doesn't sever the contract and it comes with ALL KINDS of nasty repercussions. Like being hunted to the ends of the planes by devil-assassins sent to bring the PC's soul back to Hell any way possible. Devils, one could assume, take this stuff pretty seriously.
Autosponge 03-05-04, 12:31 AM	From planescape references and 3rd-party material (like Demonology) these contracts are like a minimum of 300 pages long. They are filled with catch-caluses meant to trap the person in circular logic and mire them in incredible detail. The whole point is that no matter what you do, your sould belongs to them, nothing will EVER change that. You're not going to outsmart a creature with genius IQ and a few millenia of practice with the contract game. In essense, it's the infernal con game. Mortals are just the marks.
Grimbones 03-05-04, 10:37 AM	Soul for Sale, Sold! Do you folks remember the old artifact generation tables out of the AD&D Dm's guide? Those might be good buys for a soul ... good drawbacks, too.