Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blacksworddragon 07-12-07, 12:27 AM	I'm sure I'm not he first DM to walk into this annoying phenomenon, but I need advise as soon as possible. A Fighter with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes wielding a Spiked Chain! The player is in love with the item and seeks them out whenever possible, so I don't want to ban it but it has forced me to throw all of my CR ratings out of the window... nothing with legs seems to be able to stand against it. What do I do? I'm on the verge of pitting him against a Rust Monster, but I don't want to censor a player trying to optimize.:weep:
Lord_Varos 07-12-07, 12:41 AM	There is no problem at all. After a certain CR, most monsters either have more than two legs, titanic Strength, incredible Dexterity, or powers to prevent such things. But, when all is said and done, the player spent four feats to be able to do it, and is likely not so good at other things. It'll all end up okay if you just don't use too many NPCs as opponents.
Andrew 07-12-07, 12:42 AM	If you're all accurate to the rules, it shouldn't be that much of an issue overall. It is a strong build - against the things it is strong against. As your game progresses, an average mix of opponents will have a lot of large, strong, and/or quadrupedal creatures that the tactic is near-useless against, and that should balance it out. It is annoying if you have a certain vision for a campaign or setting that differs significantly from the default box-o-chocolates random monster tables, but it isn't the players fault if you provide more fertile ground than normal for him to play with. If your campaign is overwhelmingly urban, for example, you may find it helpful to introduce local city laws that prevent carrying reach weapons in town. Do keep the cover and Attack of Opportunity rules in mind. If he has one standing opponent or ally adjacent to him, that ally provides cover to the square behind them, and clever foes can close from within that 'shadow' getting inside his reach.
8for47 07-12-07, 01:08 AM	You know you can always use bad guys with a reach weapon (Longspear) so that they don't have to close through his threatened area and hence not provoking attacks of opportunity. And if he trips someone at 10ft then his follow up attack may not get the +4 bonus because he is not adjacent.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 01:09 AM	Have your players fight an order of Dwarven Monks that all have maxed tumble and have Skill Focus (Tumble)! :D But yeah, once you start fighting enemies that can't be tripped easily and has a reach as long as the chain, his build pretty much becomes worthless, since the chain doesn't have the greatest damage ever.
Blacksworddragon 07-12-07, 01:15 AM	What enemies are hard to trip at CR 6-9?
Andrew 07-12-07, 01:57 AM	What enemies are hard to trip at CR 6-9? It's not hard. If it is Huge or larger, Large and a quadraped, or Large and strong it is hard to trip. Aboleth Air Elemental, Greater Air Elemental, Huge Animated Object, Gargantuan Arrowhawk, Elder Athach Baleen Whale Behir Black Dragon, Young adult Blue Dragon, Juvenile Brass Dragon, Juvenile Bronze Dragon, Juvenile Bulette Cachalot Whale Chimera Chuul Copper Dragon, Juvenile Copper Dragon, Young Cryohydra Delver Demon, Vrock Destrachan Devil, Bone (Osyluth) Devil, Hellcat (Bezekira) Dinosaur, Elasmosaurus Dinosaur, Megaraptor Dinosaur, Triceratops Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus Dire Bear Dire Shark Dire Tiger Dragon Turtle Dragonne Drider Earth Elemental, Greater Earth Elemental, Huge Elephant Ettin Fire Elemental, Greater Fire Elemental, Huge Formian Taskmaster Genie, Efreeti Genie, Noble Djinn Giant, Frost Giant, Hill Giant, Stone Giant, Stone Elder Girallon Gold Dragon, Young Golem, Flesh Gorgon Gray Render Green Dragon, Juvenile Hag, Annis Hell Hound, Nessian Warhound Hydra Inevitable, Zelekhutl Invisible Stalker Lamia Lammasu Lillend Monstrous Centipede, Colossal Monstrous Centipede, Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion, Huge Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan Naga, Dark Naga, Spirit Naga, Water Octopus, Giant Ogre Barbarian Ogre Mage Ooze, Black Pudding Phasm Pyrohydra Red Dragon, Young Remorhaz Roc Shambling Mound Shield Guardian Silver Dragon, Young Skeleton, Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton, Cloud Giant Skeleton, Young Adult Red Dragon Sphinx, Androsphinx Sphinx, Criosphinx Sphinx, Gynosphinx Squid, Giant Swarm, Hellwasp Tendriculos Tojanida, Elder Treant Water Elemental, Greater Water Elemental, Huge White Dragon, Young adult Wyvern Xorn, Elder Yrthak Huge Zombie, Gray Render
dknight100 07-12-07, 03:53 AM	The trick is of course, to use multiple opponents. A single opponent tripped = game over as the rest of the party mauls it. Remember to make your fights out of mutliple opponents, at least 2 or 3. This greatly emphasises tactics, and means that his trip still makes a valid contribution in a fight, but no an overpowering one.
Phrennzy 07-12-07, 10:03 AM	One word: Ooze.
pawsplay 07-12-07, 10:06 AM	What enemies are hard to trip at CR 6-9? Advanced ogre,centaur, minotaur. Large magical beasts and animals. Dwarven monks. Anything incorporeal. Archers, circumstantially. Anything powerful enough to sunder his chain.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-12-07, 02:32 PM	Hordes of monstrous centipedes. Low CR, good hitpoints, good anti-trip modifiers, + however much you want to house rule in for having way more than 2 legs
Zealot_Reborn 07-12-07, 03:59 PM	Flying Monsters.
Amon_WinterfallIV 07-12-07, 04:08 PM	Swarms, Mobs, Incorporal enemies, Insects (got six legs or more there) and guys with a reach greater than his own. Its a good, but not broken build. Giving someone enough ranks in tumble means that they don't provoke the AoO when they get up.
PenderGrass 07-12-07, 04:11 PM	It's not hard. If it is Huge or larger, Large and a quadraped, or Large and strong it is hard to trip. If he's smart, he'll have his arcane caster buff him with Enlarge Person, or give him potions of the same name. This increases his size threat range and likely creates even more frustration for the DM that is frustrated by such things. :dragon: ****
Werebat 07-12-07, 07:44 PM	Advanced ogre,centaur, minotaur. Large magical beasts and animals. Dwarven monks. Anything incorporeal. Archers, circumstantially. Anything powerful enough to sunder his chain. Don't forget fliers! I play a chainfighter (basically a fighter/rogue build) who worked from level 1 to level 16; yeah, the low to early mid levels saw a lot of trippy goodness but eventually his schtick started having much more to do with UMD than the spiked chain. I'm really glad I maxed out UMD because the chain features I spent feats on (trip and reach) don't come up so much anymore -- well, reach is always useful, but reach alone didn't even require ONE feat, so there you go. - Ron ^*^
BoringInfoGuy 07-12-07, 08:17 PM	Here's some honest mistakes and oversights that players and DM's often make about the Spiked chain. Multiple Attacks of Opportunity: While Combat Reflexes let you make multiple Attacks of Opportunity, you DO NOT get to make multiple attacks for the same opponent moving out of multiple threatened squares in the same round. (See PHB pg 138) In other words, when an opponent moves in to attack (assuming it's not a 5 ft step), the Spike chain wielder gets an Attack of Opportunity. However, if the opponent instead tries to move past the Spike chain wielder, he still only gets one Attack of Opportunity against that foe, regardless of how many threatened squares he moves out of. Multiple actions by the same opponent - such as moving out of a threatened square and then firing a bow while in a threatened square- however, allow two separate Attack of Opportunity. Keep him down: Good luck. Yes, getting up from being prone provokes an Attack of Opportunity. But Attacks of Opportunity interrupt the action that provoked them. So no trips attempts against someone who's getting up. Move action to get up, and standard action to attack. Improved Trip: Gives a +4 bonus for the Str check to attempt to trip an opponent. And a free attack with the prone target modifier (+4) if you succeed. But you don't get the +4 bonus from Improved Trip when someone is trying to trip you. Such as when you fail a trip check. On a Related note: When you fail on a trip attempt against an opponent, they get to make an automatic attempt to trip you. The spike chain may let you make a trip attempt against a foe who's not adjacent to you, but that doesn't prevent him from trying to trip you back. The only way to avoid this attempt is to drop your weapon. It's not just STR: The defender - and only the defender - can use his DEX score instead of his STR to avoid being tripped. It's not just size: Everyone knows that for every size category above medium, you get a +4 bonus on the STR check to trip, or avoid being tripped. And a -4 for every size category below medium. But I've seen multiple people forget that having more than 2 legs also gets a +4 bonus. Not per set of legs, so a horse, displacer beast, and behir each get the same +4 bonus. Whirlwind attack: Looks good. Reach weapon, so you can hit many foes. And you can do trip attacks instead of doing damage with the Whirlwind. Just remember that Whirlwind attack does not allow ANY extra attacks, even from feats. No cleaving, and no free attack against tripped foes from Improved Trip. Against a rider: A rider trying to avoid being pulled from his saddle can make a Ride check. Even a 1st level character with no dex bonus but max ranks in Ride has already matched the +4 bonus from Improved Trip. Above 1st level, it may be best not to try. Best not to remind him: A spike chain gives a +2 bonus on disarm attempts AND the +4 bonus for being a two handed weapon. If he takes improved disarm for his next feat, he gets an additional +4 to the roll to disarm, loses the Attack of Opportunity for making the disarm attempt, and doesn't give his opponent the chance to disarm him if he fails. Also, just like trip attacks, you can use an Attack of Opportunity to make a disarm attempt. When all is said and done The Spiked chain looks powerful. But keep in mind that it's base damage is only moderate. It takes a feat just to be proficient with it. Then it requires several more feats to unlock it's full potential. And even after you've spent all those feats on it, it starts to become less effective as you continue to level. It's a good - but not game breaking - weapon.
dknight100 07-12-07, 08:39 PM	re: the spiked chain. the only reason it appears to be a game breaking weapon is because so many of the other exotic weapons aren't worth taking. personally of the exotics, i pretty much just like spiked chain, urgosh, and shuriken (they have weak low damage, but str to damage and counting as ammo is a good benefit). Good post boring info guy!
BoringInfoGuy 07-12-07, 10:01 PM	re: the spiked chain. the only reason it appears to be a game breaking weapon is because so many of the other exotic weapons aren't worth taking. personally of the exotics, i pretty much just like spiked chain, urgosh, and shuriken (they have weak low damage, but str to damage and counting as ammo is a good benefit). Good post boring info guy! Thanks, I'm due for one. For the record, I made most of these mistakes the first time I used a Spiked Chain. :P As for the other exotic weapons, I'm fond of the Bastard Sword. D10 damage, 19-20 x 2 crit range, and can be used one or two handed. Works well with the Sword and Board, TWF and THW styles. It just has a nice balance between the Longsword and the Greatsword. Something I'd use for a human fighter or possibly ranger. Without the bonus racial feat, I do have trouble justifying the cost. Personally, I tend to play melee characters using a sword and shield most of the time, but switch to THF when I need the extra damage more than the extra AC.
dknight100 07-12-07, 10:53 PM	Its not as quite effective, but if i don't have a bonus feat to throw around, or feel i need other feats for my racial, then for switching to 2h i like just wielding my longsword 2 handed. The damage dice doesnt increase (that said, the change you would get with the bastard sword is just d10), but the strength bonus does, which is good enough. All in all, you miss out on about 1 point of average damage and save a feat.
Sci_fi__Messiah 07-13-07, 01:17 AM	Actually you could have a baddie with a beefed-up animate rope spell to where he could manipulate the chain against the Fighter. Of course it could no longer be called animate rope.
Metafictional 07-13-07, 01:22 AM	Such a monster exists, the Kyton, or Chain Devil, in MMI!
albinomonkeyking 07-13-07, 03:04 AM	The only time that was a problem for me was in a homebrew campaign that focused around people, not monsters. In D&D - as people have mentioned - there are more than enough baddies of virtually any CR to defeat the tripping build. Spellcasters could always cast fly. High lvl monks (I think, don't lynch me if I'm wrong) can make a tumble to get up from prone as a free. There are is a class or two that gives the ability to get up for free, kip up, I think it's thief acrobat. Low level it works over other humanoids with 2 legs, but trust me, unless, like my game, that is all they fight, it will be fine in the end.
Blacksworddragon 07-13-07, 12:45 PM	When all is said and done The Spiked chain looks powerful. But keep in mind that it's base damage is only moderate. It takes a feat just to be proficient with it. Then it requires several more feats to unlock it's full potential. And even after you've spent all those feats on it, it starts to become less effective as you continue to level. It's a good - but not game breaking - weapon. Thanks for the info BoringInfoGuy, I think I've avoided most of these misunderstandings though I'm sure that we've done the attack of opportunity part all wrong. The only time that was a problem for me was in a homebrew campaign that focused around people, not monsters. In D&D - as people have mentioned - there are more than enough baddies of virtually any CR to defeat the tripping build. Spellcasters could always cast fly. High lvl monks (I think, don't lynch me if I'm wrong) can make a tumble to get up from prone as a free. There are is a class or two that gives the ability to get up for free, kip up, I think it's thief acrobat. Low level it works over other humanoids with 2 legs, but trust me, unless, like my game, that is all they fight, it will be fine in the end. I feel your pain the current story arc of my campaign takes place in an urban setting being overrun by an army of sentient undead (non-Lich or Vampire), I intend to use the incorporeal undead as a nasty surprise later on during the siege but the standard enemies are being tripped and then made to look like fools. In later arcs I'll allieviate the effectiveness of 'The Trip Master' but for now he makes every fight a joke...
the_real_orcus 07-13-07, 01:30 PM	Mobs, mobs, mobs, my friend! When he's surrounded by a dozen orc berserkers, having him knock one on his buttookis per round isn't going to be the best tactic.
BoringInfoGuy 07-13-07, 06:50 PM	Thanks for the info BoringInfoGuy, I think I've avoided most of these misunderstandings though I'm sure that we've done the attack of opportunity part all wrong. First time I played a Spike Chain wielder, I had that screwed up also. It's at the very end of the Attack of Opportunity Rules, and on a separate page no less. Easy enough to overlook. Heck, if you read Order of the Stick, you'll find the writer made the same mistake. While it's annoying for you right now, how is it going for the players? Spiker is happy, since he's so effective. But are the other players feeling unimportant in comparison? As long as the players are happy with things as is, I'd suggest to just let it go. Spiker just happens to have an ideal build for the current campaign arc. Let him enjoy it while it lasts. That said, there are some things you can do to increase the difficulty. You said it's being overrun by sentient undead. Sentient is important. That means they can learn. If standard tactics aren't working, they can back off and try something else. You probably have some mastermind leading the invasion. It should notice that units sent in the PC's direction aren't coming back. Good strategy would be to send some scouts or otherwise gain info on the situation. Once it knows the situation, it can react accordingly. Don't set out to completely negate the fighter. That just leads to hurt feelings. But the character should be taken as a serious threat by the invasion, and treated accordingly. For a player, there is a huge difference between "I've annoyed the DM and now he's sending stuff that negates my fighting style" and "The invading army knows that they are losing badly to me, and are sending units to try and stop me." Why not give a breakdown of how the standard combats are going? With a bit more detail, we can probably give better advice. His base stats and the the values of the opposed rolls would be helpful.