Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 09-01-05, 02:16 PM	My players, stay out. You know the drill. . . . . . . . . . . Okay, so when I handed my campaign setting to the players, two of them instantly picked up on the half-baked hook I dropped that the semi-organized church of magic was being pressured by the very organized and economically-minded Arcane Order to get themselves in more order to increase ye olde profits and communication. Some of the church-goers, of course, feel the Order just wants to turn them into a business and put their members at the head of the church's would-be hierarchy. Two players jumped all over this immediately, so I wanted to do my first adventure relating to it. I figured that the church runs a small magic shop in town, catering mostly to local people and low-level casters, while the Order runs a magic emporium that's all high class, snooty, and makes boatloads of money cuz the city's a MAJOR trading place (think Aladdin's Agriba only bigger). Then I decided some local rich brat, who's apprenticed under a wizard who's part of the Order, gets his low-life friend, who's wanting to join the thieves' guild, and robs the church's shop. But here's my first problem: I made the witnesses way too obvious. They are literally in the surrounding area, hanging washing, being drunk, or playing with their pets, when the PCs come to investigate the next morning. How do I fix this so I don't give them anything, but still ensure my PCs think to go LOOK for witnesses? Also, the crime and clues are pretty straightforward. If the PCs talk to the witnesses, they have to be extraordinarily dumb not to figure out who did it. And my second problem: no combat at ALL in the encounter. The PCs will be encountering the rich brat at either his parents', his mentor's, or the thieves' bar. None of them are likely to tolerate violence. The low-life will be found in the thieves' bar, too. Again, the only violence the thieves' guild likes is the stuff they initiatee. How do I fix this? The adventure as written is way too short, and feels to me like I'm spoonfeeding my players. Any ideas on how to make this interesting? *** While we're at it, a list of plot hooks I've received so far: Ailayana Silversand, LG human Monk1, going into Enlightened Fist -potential joining of church and Arcane Order -father was a spy for the sultan, disappeared over 15 years ago on a mission -mother was killed in an attack on their home by mysterious men in black. Character escaped with mother's spellbook -mentored to a spellcaster in the magic church. Mentor's last apprentice "left town before charges of treason could be brought against him". -merchant's son is enamoured of her, but she cares naught for romance CN? bhuka Cleric1, to the nature god of the campaign setting -went on vision quest thing, when returned, found out his tribe's people had completely disappeared, but their stuff was still intact -some other stuff I apparently haven't been told yet Eddie Mis'O'Lot, ?? Ranger1, going into Order of the Bow Initiate -raised in monastery in equivalent of Tibet -son of now-dead promiscuous silver dragoness, unknown father -mate of previous dragoness has offered the character his horde and lands (in much disarray) if he can string a dragonbone bow -monastery is part of church of magic, was sent to investigate possible joining of church and Arcane Order I have some ideas for some of these hooks already, but anything else you could throw into the mix would be interesting.
Solik 09-01-05, 02:24 PM	For combat (or similar), just take a look at some of the stuff in the urban encounters table in the DMG. There's actually some pretty cool stuff in there that your players could have fun with, like a runaway cart coming down a hill straight at them. With a baby on the back. You could have a fight between thieves' guilds break out at a location very near the PCs (perhaps near a magic shop with some flammable / explosive inventory). A student in the mage's guild accidentally summons something big and bad, which proceeds to go on a rampage. You could always give clues as a reward. Have one of the victims here be saved by the party. You could also lead them astray. Give them clues that are actually wrong. The easiest way to do that is to not change the clues you have now, but change your intended plan. Instead of a rich kid doing it, maybe the rich kid is victimized by peasants, who envy his money. Maybe he was set up by a rival rich kid / noble with potions of alter self. Maybe there's a doppleganger involved.
UltimateReality 09-01-05, 02:30 PM	For combat (or similar), just take a look at some of the stuff in the urban encounters table in the DMG. There's actually some pretty cool stuff in there that your players could have fun with, like a runaway cart coming down a hill straight at them. With a baby on the back. You could have a fight between thieves' guilds break out at a location very near the PCs (perhaps near a magic shop with some flammable / explosive inventory). A student in the mage's guild accidentally summons something big and bad, which proceeds to go on a rampage.Hah! Thanks for reminding me of that table...that table was actually pretty good IIRC, very inspirational...I'm looking at it right now, actually, to make some stuff up... The thieves' guilds fight makes perfect sense, as there are two warring underworld factions. (I'd call them gangs, but they're a bit above that, or even being mafia, really: they've been at it for at least a thousand years, they're not likely to stop now.) Maybe he was set up by a rival rich kid / noble with potions of alter self. Maybe there's a doppleganger involved.This I like. It wouldn't be a doppelganger yet, but a changeling is more than feasable (part of the underworld too). Some sort of smear campaign perhaps...the kid's dad is part of the military, and the kid's mentor has done a lot of contract work for the military too. So someone who wants to see those guys dragged through the mud could do it.
Draco Strang 09-01-05, 03:11 PM	I figured that the church runs a small magic shop in town, catering mostly to local people and low-level casters, while the Order runs a magic emporium that's all high class, snooty, and makes boatloads of money cuz the city's a MAJOR trading place (think Aladdin's Agriba only bigger). What if the Order wants to force the local magic shop out of business? Think Wal-Mart. They've no compunctions about incurring losses initially if it means stamping out their competition in the area. You could come at this from two directions. Either Wal-Mart contacts your players and wants you guys to do a little "enforcing" so the little guy sees it their way, or you could be contracted by the little guy to protect them from any unfair pressure Wal-Mart is putting on them. Then I decided some local rich brat, who's apprenticed under a wizard who's part of the Order, gets his low-life friend, who's wanting to join the thieves' guild, and robs the church's shop. But here's my first problem: I made the witnesses way too obvious. They are literally in the surrounding area, hanging washing, being drunk, or playing with their pets, when the PCs come to investigate the next morning. How do I fix this so I don't give them anything, but still ensure my PCs think to go LOOK for witnesses? What if the witnesses aren't what they appear to be? Could be spies working for someone else, deliberately misleading anyone who pokes into the crime. And my second problem: no combat at ALL in the encounter. The PCs will be encountering the rich brat at either his parents', his mentor's, or the thieves' bar. None of them are likely to tolerate violence. The low-life will be found in the thieves' bar, too. Again, the only violence the thieves' guild likes is the stuff they initiatee. How do I fix this? Random encounters all the way. Muggers step in over their heads, PC's chase down a robber, a wizard from your Order opens up a gate in town, demons step in and rip his head off. Now your players have to clean up the denizens of the underworld before they run rampant.
Solik 09-01-05, 03:29 PM	A D&D game featuring Wal-Mart as the BBEG? I love it :evillaugh
Draco Strang 09-01-05, 03:49 PM	A D&D game featuring Wal-Mart as the BBEG? I love it :evillaugh Well, I was just using it as a business model, but the idea isn't mine. A guy on the Homebrew boards actually presented a post-Apocalyptic Wal-Mart RPG where different factions lived within the confines of a GIANT Wal-Mart, and battled for the various resources and products. It was like a Mad Max/Waterworld type deal.
UltimateReality 09-01-05, 04:01 PM	What if the Order wants to force the local magic shop out of business? Think Wal-Mart. They've no compunctions about incurring losses initially if it means stamping out their competition in the area.You're on a hot streak, Draco. Come to think of it, this Walmart thing reminds me of Gas War Wednesdays...we used to have them here, where the little gas stations would all drop their prices, so the megacorps would follow suit, and then everything would go back to normal Thursday. Until one day the megaguys decided to just keep their prices that low for two weeks straight. Everyone who drove a vehicle was really happy...for about two weeks. Then the big guys raised their prices, but only following the little guys' suit. Of course now gas is so insane in price that they have to put up new signs, because the ones they have built don't have a spot for the dollar digit... Anyway, that Walmart apocalypse thing on the homebrew boards was awesome too. :) you could be contracted by the little guy to protect them from any unfair pressure Wal-Mart is putting on them.Probably this one, as two players already have strong hooks to the little guy. Although a Wal-Mart rep pressuring them for help, or perhaps a more devious route of accomplishing the same thing, would be evilly interesting. What if the witnesses aren't what they appear to be? Could be spies working for someone else, deliberately misleading anyone who pokes into the crime.I totally stole this idea, but may have made it too complicated...see, besides my huge Faction A and Faction B which have been madly going at it for centureies, there's also a smaller, newly emerged, and so far undiscovered Faction C, as well as minor Faction D. I was going to have C contact D to do the B&E, so that it would make A look bad and A would start getting mad at B, because of their long-standing enmity. Faction A has ties to the Arcane Order, you see. Random encounters all the way.I took the random encounter chart and actually turned parts of it into my planned encounters. That chart is so amazingly good, it gives you something generic enough to fit anything, but specific enough to give you ideas.
Draco Strang 09-01-05, 08:00 PM	You're on a hot streak, Draco. That's what all the ladies say. I mean, 60% of the time, it works every time. Seriously though, glad I could help. When you get some specfics ironed out, gimme a shout on PM's if you need more help. I love fine-tuning campaigns that aren't mine.
psionichamster 09-01-05, 09:55 PM	Wal-Mart vs the mom and pop magic economy? i like it. suggestions for exploratory-type missions. leave lots of little clues. the less obvious the clue, the more believable, but the more obscure, the less likely it will be taken for "real" information don't be afraid to use the thugs of the thieve's guild attempt to stir up some trouble. bar fights are ALWAYS appropriate in an opening-of-campaign low-level adventure. non-lethal damage, cool fights, and bartenders w/ bottles to smash over heads means fun! keep in mind also the pc's may personalize the enemy factions, seeing the snot-nosed punk and his illicit-minded cronie as the real "threat" and act accordingly. watch for bloodthirsty behavior...i know my usual instinct when questioning someone is torture...(not really), but be prepared for such things. freebie: a warforged (or other cast-out race...goblin/hippo-monkeys/whatever) is employed by Joe's Magic Mart, and it is only through his patronage and vouching for the outcast that he can fit into society. this guy's name: Wralf. enjoy, it sounds great, keep us informed! namaste' the hamster
revnk 09-01-05, 10:53 PM	I made the witnesses way too obvious. They are literally in the surrounding area, hanging washing, being drunk, or playing with their pets, when the PCs come to investigate the next morning. How do I fix this so I don't give them anything, but still ensure my PCs think to go LOOK for witnesses? Also, the crime and clues are pretty straightforward. If the PCs talk to the witnesses, they have to be extraordinarily dumb not to figure out who did it. Witnesses could be full of red herrings, i.e. they could be full of misinformation. Part of the adventure could be that the PCs have to sort reality from nonsense. Many of the "witnesses" could be people who ignored whatever was happening, or who say that they did, because it's safer to mind your own business. Part of the adventure could be getting people to talk. Some clues could be vague or misleading. Some witnesses might deliberately give misleading clues for various reasons: they might harbor a grudge and be glad that the place was robbed, they might feel loyalty to the thieves, etc. Inspiration-wise, I strongly recommend picking up an Agatha Christie or two if you haven't already, or a few Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Sherlock Holmes) stories: quite often in these kinds of mystery stories, there are tons of witnesses and Hercule Poirot or Sherlock Holmes has to deal with too many witnesses, rather than too few. I can also tell you, for whatever it's worth, that in real-life, witnesses are notoriously unreliable and inconsistent. The majority of criminal cases get broken because someone confesses, not because of eyewitness testimony or physical evidence. I think the key is to be generous with the clues and false leads, and leave it to your players to sort out which is which. Certain clues will be corroborated by other clues/evidence while false "clues" will clearly become red herrings as the case develops. And my second problem: no combat at ALL in the encounter. The PCs will be encountering the rich brat at either his parents', his mentor's, or the thieves' bar. None of them are likely to tolerate violence. The low-life will be found in the thieves' bar, too. Again, the only violence the thieves' guild likes is the stuff they initiatee. How do I fix this? You don't have to "fix this": give XP awards for uncovering legitimate clues and/or for good roleplaying. Consider alternate rewards such as social recognition (e.g. from the local clueless constable) or gifts ("thank you for clearing my name, please accept this token...") for successfully solving the mystery instead of the usual treasure rewards for looting bodies. Most players will get more satisfaction out of unravelling a puzzle than they get from simply receiving a few XP for lucky die rolls in combat, as long as you make the puzzle sufficiently intriguing--yes, they want the XP, too, but the warm glow from solving a mystery will be more memorable than the fact that they killed generic townie #3. Hope this helps.
Alynn 09-01-05, 11:43 PM	1) I love the scenerio, 2) If I was the character, I'd play both sides as long as I could. With that in mind, keep that as a possible avenue they may approach, then it becomes really interesting.