Air to Air combat. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Air to Air combat. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kilrail
07-21-05, 05:05 AM What is the simplest and easiest way to handle air to air combat, explain it in good detail to the players as well as handle the weapons and such. As for the weapons say things like firing at an upward angle towards another vessel or mounted soldier. What are the minuses bonuses and any links/books would be helpful thanks.

Also any modified airships/dragon armor/ weapons and such could be interesting and useful as well.

I am in the process of running a detailed campaign and kind of got bogged down so I need a refresher to get me back going again. So any help would be appreciated.
Lord Ian Stark
07-21-05, 05:18 AM Off the top of my head I think the fly speed and how well the target can fly may factor in to the equation.

As far as dragon armor and all that, there should already be stats for them in the Dragonlance setting book.

I think the only changes to the existing rules is for air to land or land to air attacks. I would say the air unit has a +2 to attack a ground unit and the ground unit has a -2 to hit the air unit.
Kilrail
07-21-05, 05:47 AM Thanks, umm so what about elevation over another vessel in the air, say you have one vessel at 400 feet up and another at 450, would the higher elevated ship get a +1 or so on attack, say give all the archers and magikers on deck a +1 to hit as long as they are matching speed and direction. I am thinking of sitting down and making a chart, but i need some ideas and such.

You know like +1 for elevation, -2 for faster speed that sort of thing.

And I didnt even think to look in the dragon lance setting, but now that I think about it why wouldnt a dragon be able to wear the same types of armor as everyone else, just higher priced and requireing more materials and such to make. I can handle that. As for ideas beyond the arms and equipment guide I like to hear everyones. And thanks again for the help so far.
Malibu Trojan
07-21-05, 07:12 AM The Combat rules in the PHB say higher ground give +1 to melee attack but I don't think to ranged attacks. Perhaps these rules change when in the extreme circumstances that arise in aerial combat, such as firing vertically up or down. I would half the ranged weapon's range increment while shooting/throwing up and double it shooting/throwing down, as you do with aerial movement (see the DMG, page 20).

Hehehe—I said "throwing up." :D
Carn Vandoril
07-21-05, 07:44 AM I'm going to watch this thread closely, cause I have simular problems in my campaign currently.
Up till now I rule for Extra AC en attackbonus modifiers.

If your opponent flies better, he gets AC +2. attack bonus +2. for each step he's better in flight.
(this is because of a 'gut feeling' not by raw)
Dragonchild
07-21-05, 09:38 AM Generally, most aerial combat can be avoided because of the vastness of airspace and differences in speed. Usually, aerial combat is a deliberate attack on a slow-moving craft [that can't evade by going top speed].

When the attacked cannot evade, the easiest way to run aerial combat is to not get caught up in messy details. Take this from a physics major; any remotely realistic simulation of free-ranging 3D motion is nightmarishly complicated.

I'd reduce everything into a single die roll: the Maneuver check. Basically, it would work like a skill check, except the score is the sum of an aircraft and crew's features. (Or just one score for a flying creature.) Compare the speed, maneuverability and size of the crafts, as well as the skill levels of the pilot and crew. The key difference here is that while ground-based skills are usually nine parts character and one part equipment (for example, a rogue with a +18 Pick Locks skill and +2 bonus for quality picks), with aircraft, I'd balance it the other way around. There isn't a WHOLE lot a skilled pilot can do with a flying brick, and even a rookie pilot is dangerous in a fast craft (landing it being another matter). I don't have any solid rules (I'll work on it if I get enough PM requests), but figure maybe +1 for a blimp to +20 (or more!) for a small air elemental. A skilled pilot/crew can improve an aircraft's Maneuver score by up to +4 or so (maybe up to +8 for ace pilots, depending on how much you believe pilots can work miracles -- your call). As a matter of principle, a pilot in a craft should NEVER have a higher score than an innate flyer of similar speed and size (tho in actuality, aircraft and creatures aren't often similar).

Every round, both sides make Maneuver checks (d20 + above modifier). The winner not only gets to act first (making Maneuver an Initiative check), but the difference acts as a bonus. For example, if Craft A rolls a Maneuver of 15 and Craft B a Manuever of 7, Craft A acts first and gets a +8 bonus to attack (Note: In mass aerial combat, you only influence the craft you're dogfighting). If Craft A wants to do something else, that bonus applies to the appropriate check. This reflects that Craft A was able to maneuver into an advantageous position. These rules ensure an inferior craft will get chewed up quickly, but that's how it goes in real aerial combat. HOWEVER, there's a catch: All attack/skill rolls in aerial combat have a -10 penalty. This is to reflect the innate difficulty of aerial combat; attacks are made on fast-moving objects at extreme ranges, while skills attempted during dogfights must overcome the loops, twists, rolls, etc. Scattering weapons (e.g., grapeshot catapults) do less damage but will offset the penalty. Guided weapons may eliminate the penalty or even hit automatically (fireball, for example). And finally, a good Maneuver check can completely negate the penalty -- indicating the inherently difficult situation was overcome with fancy flying.

When combat's over, determine position by rolling for "scatter" based on how many rounds combat lasted and the top speed of the slowest aircraft. For example, if the slowest craft had a top speed of 10 widgets and combat lasted five rounds, no craft in the fight would wind up more than 50 widgets away from when they first engaged.

These flying rules are dirt-simple, but it's much easier than trying to constantly track position, speed, trajectory, etc. Just size up the two aircraft and let them at it head-to-head. Better yet, reducing everything to one simple check will allow you to resolve massive aerial combat without having your head explode. If you think a one-on-one dogfight is tough, you're not ready for 20-on-20.
Dragonchild
07-21-05, 09:55 AM Just had a thought: As an alternative, you can cap an aircraft's Maneuver with the pilot/crew's skill. For example, if a pilot's Pilot skill is +10, then the maximum Maneuver skill s/he can get out of a craft is +10 -- even if the aircraft has, say, +12 Maneuver. On the other hand, an exceptionally high Pilot skill can overcome a clumsy aircraft's Maneuver skill by +1 for every five points the Pilot skill exceeds the Maneuver skill. For example, a pilot with a +23 Pilot skill can improve a blimp's +1 Manuever by (23 - 1)/5 = +4 (round down). That totals +5. Not gonna beat an F-15 under any circumstances, but you just may be able to land the thing safely before a dragon incinerates the cockpit.
Kilrail
07-21-05, 02:31 PM Alright from what everyone has said here I have worked out a simple yet effective way to figure out a simple way of settling the attack roll for a vessel.

Here goes.

:dice: Automatic -10 for aerial combat. As said before its inherently difficult to pilot/ride a vessel or creature during difficult aerial maneuvers. (this being said and edited, it could amount to you getting a minus on your combat roll)

:dice: Manuverability (sp sorry)
This is based on how well the vessel/creature is able to maneuver and get around into a firing possition/attacking possition THUS giving it bonuses if it can outfly its opponent. This bonus also adds to the vessel/creatures AC IF thier is a difference. (i.e. a dragon with average manueverability goes up against a vessel with poor, the vessel would take a -2 to his AC for his inability to keep up with the dragons maneuvers and such, to vessels/creatures with the same manueverability do not take minuses at all.)

Perfect +2
Good +1
Average +0
Poor -1
Clumsy-2

:dice: Vertical attacks (i.e. trying to hit a target directly below or directly above you, including climbs and dives)

+1 for the vehicle/creature above the target
-1 for below (say trying to attack during a climb)

:dice: Piloting skills (this represents the pilots/rider skill at controlling/assisting the vessel or creature)

Add only 1/2 the pilot/riders ranks in either ride or pilot CAN BE 0. (i.e. an untrained pilot or a very very low skilled pilot would not have a very good bonus because he doesnt really know much about combat in the air anyways)

:dice: Weather
As weather in the DM guide. Windspead/storms that sort of thing. Also I like to require an extra check to see if the pilot is able to keep the vessel controlled during the storm as for creatures its up to them. Just as the DMG states. Poor/Huge can stay in the heavier winds than a perfect/tiny creature.

:dice: Spot DC
Same as DMG for trying to hide a large vessel. But instead of a Dex check and a Hide skill. The DC for a hide is based from the Pilots skill so he would add his/her modifier to the D20 roll. Same rules apply such as larger creatures get minus well larger vessels get minuses as well. Poor cover also applies, bad weather would allow for a vessel or creature to hide easier. As for creatures they simply apply their own hide, seeing as they would have to hover or flight very close circles, it would require they know what they are doing. ALL HIDE CHECKS HAVE A -10 AUTOMATCILY due to the difficutly to hide any vessel in the air behind a cloud. Also I like to add the manuverability bonus because it also helps with being able to keep the vessel steady. Creatures dont get that bonus.

:dice: Chases.
If the vessel can outrun the other then it can, if they are the same speed though, or if the two vessels are deliberately trying to match speed then its rolled as this. The pilot instead of adding his Dex mod to the roll adds the ranks he has in pilot. (without the wis mod) For a shortdistance chase. As for a long distance chase lasting multiple hours/days. Instead of adding his WIS mod to his ranks he would add CON, seeing as he is required to stay at the wheel/repeatedly give orders to his crew. UNLESS THERE IS ANOTHER SKILLED PILOT and they switch then it would just count as seperate short distance chases.
As for creatures, general rules apply, Dex for short distance, Con for long distance. Simply put in a chase it would be better to have a vessel than a creature MOST of the time, if you are matched in speed.
As for trying to line to vessels up side by side. I generaly decided to do it this way. Each pilot makes a single pilot skill check to see if they can line the ships up based on weather/wind distance they want to get to eachother. (i.e. calm winds +0, clear skys +0, average distance 30 to 60 ft from eachother +0, adds up to be a +0 on his pilot check) I also add a +2 to his check if the two ships are in direct communication, signaler/wizard. And a +1 if they can just see eachother and know they are to meet and match speed and course.

Well thats all I got. Any criticing feel free to do so. Give me feedback and I just did it quickly based on what everyone has put down SO its not the greatest I know.

The combat rolls are based on the rider/pilots skill. So a pilot on a small vessel with average manuverabiltiy in good winds would basicly just be how well the two pilots could match eachother in combat. Just thought I might clear that up if noone noticed it before.
Thanks again guys.
Liwmial
07-21-05, 08:49 PM If you can get your hands on it, the second edition DMG did a really good break down of aerial combat.
Kilrail
07-21-05, 10:08 PM Yep, just got it today. Really good, but its a very simplistic version of it also, SO its one of those it could go either way. Depending on how advanced you want it to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kilrail 07-21-05, 05:05 AM	What is the simplest and easiest way to handle air to air combat, explain it in good detail to the players as well as handle the weapons and such. As for the weapons say things like firing at an upward angle towards another vessel or mounted soldier. What are the minuses bonuses and any links/books would be helpful thanks. Also any modified airships/dragon armor/ weapons and such could be interesting and useful as well. I am in the process of running a detailed campaign and kind of got bogged down so I need a refresher to get me back going again. So any help would be appreciated.
Lord Ian Stark 07-21-05, 05:18 AM	Off the top of my head I think the fly speed and how well the target can fly may factor in to the equation. As far as dragon armor and all that, there should already be stats for them in the Dragonlance setting book. I think the only changes to the existing rules is for air to land or land to air attacks. I would say the air unit has a +2 to attack a ground unit and the ground unit has a -2 to hit the air unit.
Kilrail 07-21-05, 05:47 AM	Thanks, umm so what about elevation over another vessel in the air, say you have one vessel at 400 feet up and another at 450, would the higher elevated ship get a +1 or so on attack, say give all the archers and magikers on deck a +1 to hit as long as they are matching speed and direction. I am thinking of sitting down and making a chart, but i need some ideas and such. You know like +1 for elevation, -2 for faster speed that sort of thing. And I didnt even think to look in the dragon lance setting, but now that I think about it why wouldnt a dragon be able to wear the same types of armor as everyone else, just higher priced and requireing more materials and such to make. I can handle that. As for ideas beyond the arms and equipment guide I like to hear everyones. And thanks again for the help so far.
Malibu Trojan 07-21-05, 07:12 AM	The Combat rules in the PHB say higher ground give +1 to melee attack but I don't think to ranged attacks. Perhaps these rules change when in the extreme circumstances that arise in aerial combat, such as firing vertically up or down. I would half the ranged weapon's range increment while shooting/throwing up and double it shooting/throwing down, as you do with aerial movement (see the DMG, page 20). Hehehe—I said "throwing up." :D
Carn Vandoril 07-21-05, 07:44 AM	I'm going to watch this thread closely, cause I have simular problems in my campaign currently. Up till now I rule for Extra AC en attackbonus modifiers. If your opponent flies better, he gets AC +2. attack bonus +2. for each step he's better in flight. (this is because of a 'gut feeling' not by raw)
Dragonchild 07-21-05, 09:38 AM	Generally, most aerial combat can be avoided because of the vastness of airspace and differences in speed. Usually, aerial combat is a deliberate attack on a slow-moving craft [that can't evade by going top speed]. When the attacked cannot evade, the easiest way to run aerial combat is to not get caught up in messy details. Take this from a physics major; any remotely realistic simulation of free-ranging 3D motion is nightmarishly complicated. I'd reduce everything into a single die roll: the Maneuver check. Basically, it would work like a skill check, except the score is the sum of an aircraft and crew's features. (Or just one score for a flying creature.) Compare the speed, maneuverability and size of the crafts, as well as the skill levels of the pilot and crew. The key difference here is that while ground-based skills are usually nine parts character and one part equipment (for example, a rogue with a +18 Pick Locks skill and +2 bonus for quality picks), with aircraft, I'd balance it the other way around. There isn't a WHOLE lot a skilled pilot can do with a flying brick, and even a rookie pilot is dangerous in a fast craft (landing it being another matter). I don't have any solid rules (I'll work on it if I get enough PM requests), but figure maybe +1 for a blimp to +20 (or more!) for a small air elemental. A skilled pilot/crew can improve an aircraft's Maneuver score by up to +4 or so (maybe up to +8 for ace pilots, depending on how much you believe pilots can work miracles -- your call). As a matter of principle, a pilot in a craft should NEVER have a higher score than an innate flyer of similar speed and size (tho in actuality, aircraft and creatures aren't often similar). Every round, both sides make Maneuver checks (d20 + above modifier). The winner not only gets to act first (making Maneuver an Initiative check), but the difference acts as a bonus. For example, if Craft A rolls a Maneuver of 15 and Craft B a Manuever of 7, Craft A acts first and gets a +8 bonus to attack (Note: In mass aerial combat, you only influence the craft you're dogfighting). If Craft A wants to do something else, that bonus applies to the appropriate check. This reflects that Craft A was able to maneuver into an advantageous position. These rules ensure an inferior craft will get chewed up quickly, but that's how it goes in real aerial combat. HOWEVER, there's a catch: All attack/skill rolls in aerial combat have a -10 penalty. This is to reflect the innate difficulty of aerial combat; attacks are made on fast-moving objects at extreme ranges, while skills attempted during dogfights must overcome the loops, twists, rolls, etc. Scattering weapons (e.g., grapeshot catapults) do less damage but will offset the penalty. Guided weapons may eliminate the penalty or even hit automatically (fireball, for example). And finally, a good Maneuver check can completely negate the penalty -- indicating the inherently difficult situation was overcome with fancy flying. When combat's over, determine position by rolling for "scatter" based on how many rounds combat lasted and the top speed of the slowest aircraft. For example, if the slowest craft had a top speed of 10 widgets and combat lasted five rounds, no craft in the fight would wind up more than 50 widgets away from when they first engaged. These flying rules are dirt-simple, but it's much easier than trying to constantly track position, speed, trajectory, etc. Just size up the two aircraft and let them at it head-to-head. Better yet, reducing everything to one simple check will allow you to resolve massive aerial combat without having your head explode. If you think a one-on-one dogfight is tough, you're not ready for 20-on-20.
Dragonchild 07-21-05, 09:55 AM	Just had a thought: As an alternative, you can cap an aircraft's Maneuver with the pilot/crew's skill. For example, if a pilot's Pilot skill is +10, then the maximum Maneuver skill s/he can get out of a craft is +10 -- even if the aircraft has, say, +12 Maneuver. On the other hand, an exceptionally high Pilot skill can overcome a clumsy aircraft's Maneuver skill by +1 for every five points the Pilot skill exceeds the Maneuver skill. For example, a pilot with a +23 Pilot skill can improve a blimp's +1 Manuever by (23 - 1)/5 = +4 (round down). That totals +5. Not gonna beat an F-15 under any circumstances, but you just may be able to land the thing safely before a dragon incinerates the cockpit.
Kilrail 07-21-05, 02:31 PM	Alright from what everyone has said here I have worked out a simple yet effective way to figure out a simple way of settling the attack roll for a vessel. Here goes. :dice: Automatic -10 for aerial combat. As said before its inherently difficult to pilot/ride a vessel or creature during difficult aerial maneuvers. (this being said and edited, it could amount to you getting a minus on your combat roll) :dice: Manuverability (sp sorry) This is based on how well the vessel/creature is able to maneuver and get around into a firing possition/attacking possition THUS giving it bonuses if it can outfly its opponent. This bonus also adds to the vessel/creatures AC IF thier is a difference. (i.e. a dragon with average manueverability goes up against a vessel with poor, the vessel would take a -2 to his AC for his inability to keep up with the dragons maneuvers and such, to vessels/creatures with the same manueverability do not take minuses at all.) Perfect +2 Good +1 Average +0 Poor -1 Clumsy-2 :dice: Vertical attacks (i.e. trying to hit a target directly below or directly above you, including climbs and dives) +1 for the vehicle/creature above the target -1 for below (say trying to attack during a climb) :dice: Piloting skills (this represents the pilots/rider skill at controlling/assisting the vessel or creature) Add only 1/2 the pilot/riders ranks in either ride or pilot CAN BE 0. (i.e. an untrained pilot or a very very low skilled pilot would not have a very good bonus because he doesnt really know much about combat in the air anyways) :dice: Weather As weather in the DM guide. Windspead/storms that sort of thing. Also I like to require an extra check to see if the pilot is able to keep the vessel controlled during the storm as for creatures its up to them. Just as the DMG states. Poor/Huge can stay in the heavier winds than a perfect/tiny creature. :dice: Spot DC Same as DMG for trying to hide a large vessel. But instead of a Dex check and a Hide skill. The DC for a hide is based from the Pilots skill so he would add his/her modifier to the D20 roll. Same rules apply such as larger creatures get minus well larger vessels get minuses as well. Poor cover also applies, bad weather would allow for a vessel or creature to hide easier. As for creatures they simply apply their own hide, seeing as they would have to hover or flight very close circles, it would require they know what they are doing. ALL HIDE CHECKS HAVE A -10 AUTOMATCILY due to the difficutly to hide any vessel in the air behind a cloud. Also I like to add the manuverability bonus because it also helps with being able to keep the vessel steady. Creatures dont get that bonus. :dice: Chases. If the vessel can outrun the other then it can, if they are the same speed though, or if the two vessels are deliberately trying to match speed then its rolled as this. The pilot instead of adding his Dex mod to the roll adds the ranks he has in pilot. (without the wis mod) For a shortdistance chase. As for a long distance chase lasting multiple hours/days. Instead of adding his WIS mod to his ranks he would add CON, seeing as he is required to stay at the wheel/repeatedly give orders to his crew. UNLESS THERE IS ANOTHER SKILLED PILOT and they switch then it would just count as seperate short distance chases. As for creatures, general rules apply, Dex for short distance, Con for long distance. Simply put in a chase it would be better to have a vessel than a creature MOST of the time, if you are matched in speed. As for trying to line to vessels up side by side. I generaly decided to do it this way. Each pilot makes a single pilot skill check to see if they can line the ships up based on weather/wind distance they want to get to eachother. (i.e. calm winds +0, clear skys +0, average distance 30 to 60 ft from eachother +0, adds up to be a +0 on his pilot check) I also add a +2 to his check if the two ships are in direct communication, signaler/wizard. And a +1 if they can just see eachother and know they are to meet and match speed and course. Well thats all I got. Any criticing feel free to do so. Give me feedback and I just did it quickly based on what everyone has put down SO its not the greatest I know. The combat rolls are based on the rider/pilots skill. So a pilot on a small vessel with average manuverabiltiy in good winds would basicly just be how well the two pilots could match eachother in combat. Just thought I might clear that up if noone noticed it before. Thanks again guys.
Liwmial 07-21-05, 08:49 PM	If you can get your hands on it, the second edition DMG did a really good break down of aerial combat.
Kilrail 07-21-05, 10:08 PM	Yep, just got it today. Really good, but its a very simplistic version of it also, SO its one of those it could go either way. Depending on how advanced you want it to go.