Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jazzman831 10-08-05, 01:35 AM	How would one go about ajusting CR for an injured creature? I'm not very good at estimating CR yet, as I've only been playing for a couple years and have DMed for even less. For a later part of the campaign I'm running I want to have a powerful dragon defeat a slightly less powerful dragon, and then have to face the (5th or 6th level) PC's.... Also, are there any general suggestions about CR for injured creatures? Thanks
Bryarr 10-08-05, 01:58 AM	How powerful is the dragon? An ancient red dragon with 30 hp will still kick your party's butt, for example. Bry
JBW 10-08-05, 02:01 AM	I wouldn't lower the CR, and here's why: 1) Save DCs are still based on the uninjured creature. 2) AC is generally not going to be changed by injuries. 3) BAB and damage is not generally reduced by injuries. 4) Saves and SR are not typically reduced for injuries. 5) Treasure is based on CR, and a monster's treasure won't diminish as the monster suffers damage. Healing potions and similar items are a key exception. In short, simple hit point loss does virtually nothing to reduce a creature's offensive capabilities. If you throw in Ability damage, you might get a bit further. I'd just reduce the XP award for the creature by 25% for significant (down at least 25% but no more than 50%) hit point loss or possibly by 50% for hit point loss and Ability damage (be aware of Con loss further reduceing hit points). Jay
jazzman831 10-08-05, 02:05 AM	I haven't quite decided yet... the winning dragon will be a green dragon, which has just defeated a copper dragon. It's going to be a "boss-fight" situation, so I want the final CR to be around 6 or 7. I don't know at what point the dragon's static statistics (BAB, breath weapon, etc.) become too powerful to be scaled down by the loss of some variable statistics (HP and a spell or two (maybe)). I could just always just fudge it and put in an appropriate CR dragon and say it was injured, but I'd rather not. It keeps the PC's on their toes if they get something a little unexpected, especially in a campain in which they fight many dragons!
Cantankerous 10-08-05, 02:13 AM	I disagree with Jay. A CR 20 encounter with a comensurate treasure that can be gotten by a single weak and lucky hit is CHEAP and poorly thought out. I wouldn't adjust the CR, but since you are setting up do this ahead of time, I WOULD adjust the Treasure take commensurate, directly proportional, to how injured the Monster is. This way you aren't penalizing the Players, but also aren't giving away the bank. Isshia
JBW 10-08-05, 02:35 AM	I disagree with Jay. A CR 20 encounter with a comensurate treasure that can be gotten by a single weak and lucky hit is CHEAP and poorly thought out. Is there an non-metagame reason why the injured creature has less treasure? It could be possible that it had magic items that were damaged in the previous combat, and there is the possibility of it using up expendable items (potions, scrolls, charges from wands and staffs), but otherwise reducing the horde is simple metagame reasoning. I don't like metagame thinking. Regardless, so what if it's 'easy money'? There are plenty of dangerous monsters that don't grant any treasure. So as long as the overall adventure is well-balanced in terms of difficulty (CR), XP, and treasure, then it's OK if all three aspects are not all present in the same proportion for each encounter. Jay
Cantankerous 10-08-05, 02:57 AM	Is there an non-metagame reason why the injured creature has less treasure? It could be possible that it had magic items that were damaged in the previous combat, and there is the possibility of it using up expendable items (potions, scrolls, charges from wands and staffs), but otherwise reducing the horde is simple metagame reasoning. I don't like metagame thinking. Regardless, so what if it's 'easy money'? There are plenty of dangerous monsters that don't grant any treasure. So as long as the overall adventure is well-balanced in terms of difficulty (CR), XP, and treasure, then it's OK if all three aspects are not all present in the same proportion for each encounter. Jay Absolutely the same non-metagame reason that the creature the party is encountering is pre-injured in the first place. The DM HAS TO metagame. Players should avoid it like the plague, but anyone with any degree of self respect and honesty as a DM must admit to constant metagaming as a DM. Isshia
Stev Beren 10-08-05, 06:51 AM	Aren't hit dice included in Challenge rating? Recalculate a "Modified Hit dice" based on the new HP total and recalculate the Challenge rating. .
jazzman831 10-08-05, 12:23 PM	With reguards to treasure, that is probably what I spend the most time figuring out. I roll based on th CR of all the encounters for one session, then figure out where it would go, so in this instance I would roll for, say, a CR6 encounter and add it to the pile, but since he's a "high level" dragon, add treasure from things that they fought earlier in the encounter which didn't happen to have any treasure, badda bing badda boom: it doesn't look like I'm metagaming lower treasure!! Treasure/XP weren't really what I was worried about, though. I was more worried about TPKing my party with something that was unfair for them to have to go against (again :eek: ).
LordHumungus 10-08-05, 01:15 PM	Is there an non-metagame reason why the injured creature has less treasure? It could be possible that it had magic items that were damaged in the previous combat, and there is the possibility of it using up expendable items (potions, scrolls, charges from wands and staffs), but otherwise reducing the horde is simple metagame reasoning. I don't like metagame thinking. Jay It could be possible that the dragon doesn't keep all of it's loot in a single location. Perhaps the PC's could find a clue as to the location of its greater loot pile as a hook for another adventure. Of course, before they find it other creatures have noticed the dragon has been gone for a while and found themselves a nice new home complete with loot.