alchemelical silver [Archive] - Wizards Community

alchemelical silver [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eightbitmage
12-01-04, 03:10 PM I have a PC with craft alchemy, and they were about to fight werewolves, the question arose, can she make things into alchemelical silver through a process, or would she just make the silver and have it made into a weapon, or something different. Wasn't able to find anything last night, and luckly she didnt have her alchemy kit on her, so it stopped being an issue. Has anyone else run into this?
Aeromus
12-01-04, 03:20 PM I think it sounds like an interesting idea. She would definently need some amount of silver (melted coins, silver bars ect) but after that she "should" be able to do alot with it.

Adding components to it, to make it stay liquid mayhaps., powdering it and addng a sticky substance that may allow it to stick to a weapon for a brief time, a few rounds maybe. ( say coating a long sword with it...lasts 3 runds, and does 1d3+str silver damage)

This doesn't seem to over powering imho, as you still need the silver to do it.
Omeg
12-01-04, 03:24 PM I don't think I am really following, are you talking about making regular metals into silver or just creating a "silver weapon"? Like Alchemists fire just then, well, silver.

If you're looking into something like the Philosopher's stone that's an alltogether diffrent issue. Either way, I can't see you changing the base metal of a weapon without interfering with the enchantments upon it. As for a "silver splash weapon" well... I'm not sure how it'd work really.
Moblin
12-01-04, 03:39 PM From the SRD:
Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.

As I read it, all you need is a steel weapon, silver, a “lab” and the craft alchemy skill to make a weapon silvered.
You don’t even need the additional gp cost in sp to create a silvered weapon. You could rule that the process cost something as well

Hope it helps
Moblin
Eightbitmage
12-01-04, 03:40 PM Omeg: What i mean is alchemelical silver has to come from somewhere, i assume from an alchemist.

So is alchemelical silver a coating on a sword, or is a sword made of it, and whichever it is, what is the DC for craft alchemy to make it.
ermedic
12-01-04, 03:50 PM Omeg: What i mean is alchemelical silver has to come from somewhere, i assume from an alchemist. So is alchemelical silver a coating on a sword, or is a sword made of it, and whichever it is, what is the DC for craft alchemy to make it.
Alchemical Silver is part of the weapon--it is made that way. If your looking for something to temp. give a weapon the ability to bypass a lycanthropes DR, then look for silversheen in the DMG. It requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat but is relatively inexpensive.
The Commoner
12-01-04, 04:41 PM This is what you need to mimic the effects of Alch. silver:

Silversheen: This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp.

So as a DM I would require the following to "make it on the fly":

Feat: Craft Wondrous Item (I would also allow Brew Potion as a substitute)
GP materials cost: 125 gp (specifiically 75 gp worth of silver)
XP cost: 10 xp
Caster Level: 5th
Time to create: 6 hours
Additional Requirement: Alchemy Craft check: DC 15
If Brew Potion is used over the CWI feat then I would additionally require 3 Craft Alch. checks (complex skill checks can be fun if description is used).

Example how this can be creative and fun:
Hour 1: You prepare the the silver by flaking off bits of the soft metal into your measure beaker taking care to get the proper amount. Other vials are filled with the newt bile, salt water, preserved wolf's blood, etc. Your hands shake anxiously as you prepare this new never tried before experiment...
Craft Check 1: DC 10

Hour 2-4: The brazier casts unfamiliar scents into the air as it boils and melts the different substances together. You carefully add a little more salt water to preserve the consistancy of the mixture. The fire blazes as drops of the mixture spill over the side send a color spray of smoke up into the air....
Craft Check 2: DC 17

Hour 5-6: You take out a small flask to pour your newly made Silversheen into careful not to loose a precious drop. A howl of a wolves is heard in the distance and you redouble your efforts to preseve this vital brew....
Craft Check 3: DC 10

Be creative and have fun. Also don't overdue the detail often or it will loose its edge.
Kyaran
12-01-04, 08:02 PM From the SRD:
Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.Yeah, that's the relevant part. Generally, this kind of thing is built into the weapon at construction, but I can see adding this particular one later.

I'd require Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (alchemy). The alchemical part of alchemical silver is the process of bonding it to the weapon, and you need to be able to use the weapon when you're done.

I'd allow this to be added to any steel weapon (but no special metals, it says so) with a relatively basic Craft (w) check and a decent Craft (a) check; this process would also require an alchemy lab. Probably DC 15 on weaponsmithing and DC 20 on alchemy.

Do it like the normal Craft rules, and the 'price' is, say... 75% of adding it to a new weapon. You still pay the full price in gp, though. (20gp for light, 90gp for 1H, and 180gp for 2H) I'd say half that value is the silver itself, while the rest is the materials. Presuming a minimum level of success at the Craft checks, it would end up taking a week for a one-handed weapon. :fight!:
Eightbitmage
12-02-04, 12:05 AM Ok the thing is I'm not trying to mimic alchemelical silver either, what i want to know is if there is anything regarding the DC for actually making the stuff. The idea is alchemelical silver is not natural, its a product of alchemy, what is the DC and cost of making the real actual stuff, to coat a sword, and are there more checks involved in the coating.

For those of you who misunderstood im sorry for not being clear, for those who did understand (particularly kyaran and moblin) thanks.
Wayward Son
12-02-04, 10:17 AM Ok the thing is I'm not trying to mimic alchemelical silver either, what i want to know is if there is anything regarding the DC for actually making the stuff. The idea is alchemelical silver is not natural, its a product of alchemy, what is the DC and cost of making the real actual stuff, to coat a sword, and are there more checks involved in the coating.
Originally Posted by Moblin
From the SRD:
Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.

I think this is the fine point you are missing. Alchemical silver isn't just coating the weapon, it is bonded to the steel as it is being forged. It is mixed and folded into the steel so that it becomes an integral part of the weapon. That's why it's listed as a special material instead of an enhancement, because it can only be applied at the weapon's initial construction. Think of it as an alloy: you can't "make" a copper item into brass by coating it in zinc, you have to melt it down and properly mix the zinc into the molten copper. It's the same with alchemical silver, in that the mixture of silver is added to the molten steel and bonds with it, becoming an entirely different substance (Alchemical Silver).

So, I'm afraid you're stuck with Silversheen as the PCs' best bet for "silvered" weapons in a hurry. I applaud the player's inventiveness in thinking of using Craft(Alchemy) to solve this problem, but there is a general admonishment about allowing alchemical items to perform the same tasks, and as well, as magic items. Perhaps a silver paste that will allow a weapon to bypass DR */silver for a brief time (say, 5 or 10 rounds) could be developed. He would need a formula or the time to develop one (involving a profession:alchemist or knowledge(alchemy) check, likely around a DC 20, before the Craft check).

Good luck.
Kyaran
12-02-04, 12:05 PM Alchemical silver isn't just coating the weapon, it is bonded to the steel as it is being forged. It is mixed and folded into the steel so that it becomes an integral part of the weapon.Making an alloy using silver is different from bonding silver to steel. I think the best definition of 'bond' here is the one from chemistry: a chemical or molecular bond. It's more than just a simple coating, though, which is why my method suggests also having ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing).

Whether or not to allow this is really up to the individual DM. You don't think it should be allowed; that's fine, and there are perfectly good precedents for only allowing special materials at creation. I think it should be allowed, but with a cost in time and money similar to what it would be to make a new weapon. All the other materials in the DMG say things like "items made from" or "when worked like steel." The fact that alchemical silver says "bond silver to a weapon made of steel" is enough for me to believe you can add it later.

Eightbitmage: if you're still looking for official rules on how to do this, I don't think anything specifically covers it. The closest match I found was the rules for using the Craft skill, and I just made up some DCs (which is sometimes required ;)). Normally, you'd use the same DC as creating the weapon, with the additional cost of the silver factored into production and the time taken.
iKitten
12-02-04, 12:55 PM Awww, where's the kick down the door style of "I'll deal with it as it comes up" gameplay? It's only DR 5/silver or DR 10/silver. =^_^=

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eightbitmage 12-01-04, 03:10 PM	I have a PC with craft alchemy, and they were about to fight werewolves, the question arose, can she make things into alchemelical silver through a process, or would she just make the silver and have it made into a weapon, or something different. Wasn't able to find anything last night, and luckly she didnt have her alchemy kit on her, so it stopped being an issue. Has anyone else run into this?
Aeromus 12-01-04, 03:20 PM	I think it sounds like an interesting idea. She would definently need some amount of silver (melted coins, silver bars ect) but after that she "should" be able to do alot with it. Adding components to it, to make it stay liquid mayhaps., powdering it and addng a sticky substance that may allow it to stick to a weapon for a brief time, a few rounds maybe. ( say coating a long sword with it...lasts 3 runds, and does 1d3+str silver damage) This doesn't seem to over powering imho, as you still need the silver to do it.
Omeg 12-01-04, 03:24 PM	I don't think I am really following, are you talking about making regular metals into silver or just creating a "silver weapon"? Like Alchemists fire just then, well, silver. If you're looking into something like the Philosopher's stone that's an alltogether diffrent issue. Either way, I can't see you changing the base metal of a weapon without interfering with the enchantments upon it. As for a "silver splash weapon" well... I'm not sure how it'd work really.
Moblin 12-01-04, 03:39 PM	From the SRD: Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes. As I read it, all you need is a steel weapon, silver, a “lab” and the craft alchemy skill to make a weapon silvered. You don’t even need the additional gp cost in sp to create a silvered weapon. You could rule that the process cost something as well Hope it helps Moblin
Eightbitmage 12-01-04, 03:40 PM	Omeg: What i mean is alchemelical silver has to come from somewhere, i assume from an alchemist. So is alchemelical silver a coating on a sword, or is a sword made of it, and whichever it is, what is the DC for craft alchemy to make it.
ermedic 12-01-04, 03:50 PM	Omeg: What i mean is alchemelical silver has to come from somewhere, i assume from an alchemist. So is alchemelical silver a coating on a sword, or is a sword made of it, and whichever it is, what is the DC for craft alchemy to make it. Alchemical Silver is part of the weapon--it is made that way. If your looking for something to temp. give a weapon the ability to bypass a lycanthropes DR, then look for silversheen in the DMG. It requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat but is relatively inexpensive.
The Commoner 12-01-04, 04:41 PM	This is what you need to mimic the effects of Alch. silver: Silversheen: This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp. So as a DM I would require the following to "make it on the fly": Feat: Craft Wondrous Item (I would also allow Brew Potion as a substitute) GP materials cost: 125 gp (specifiically 75 gp worth of silver) XP cost: 10 xp Caster Level: 5th Time to create: 6 hours Additional Requirement: Alchemy Craft check: DC 15 If Brew Potion is used over the CWI feat then I would additionally require 3 Craft Alch. checks (complex skill checks can be fun if description is used). Example how this can be creative and fun: Hour 1: You prepare the the silver by flaking off bits of the soft metal into your measure beaker taking care to get the proper amount. Other vials are filled with the newt bile, salt water, preserved wolf's blood, etc. Your hands shake anxiously as you prepare this new never tried before experiment... Craft Check 1: DC 10 Hour 2-4: The brazier casts unfamiliar scents into the air as it boils and melts the different substances together. You carefully add a little more salt water to preserve the consistancy of the mixture. The fire blazes as drops of the mixture spill over the side send a color spray of smoke up into the air.... Craft Check 2: DC 17 Hour 5-6: You take out a small flask to pour your newly made Silversheen into careful not to loose a precious drop. A howl of a wolves is heard in the distance and you redouble your efforts to preseve this vital brew.... Craft Check 3: DC 10 Be creative and have fun. Also don't overdue the detail often or it will loose its edge.
Kyaran 12-01-04, 08:02 PM	From the SRD: Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.Yeah, that's the relevant part. Generally, this kind of thing is built into the weapon at construction, but I can see adding this particular one later. I'd require Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (alchemy). The alchemical part of alchemical silver is the process of bonding it to the weapon, and you need to be able to use the weapon when you're done. I'd allow this to be added to any steel weapon (but no special metals, it says so) with a relatively basic Craft (w) check and a decent Craft (a) check; this process would also require an alchemy lab. Probably DC 15 on weaponsmithing and DC 20 on alchemy. Do it like the normal Craft rules, and the 'price' is, say... 75% of adding it to a new weapon. You still pay the full price in gp, though. (20gp for light, 90gp for 1H, and 180gp for 2H) I'd say half that value is the silver itself, while the rest is the materials. Presuming a minimum level of success at the Craft checks, it would end up taking a week for a one-handed weapon. :fight!:
Eightbitmage 12-02-04, 12:05 AM	Ok the thing is I'm not trying to mimic alchemelical silver either, what i want to know is if there is anything regarding the DC for actually making the stuff. The idea is alchemelical silver is not natural, its a product of alchemy, what is the DC and cost of making the real actual stuff, to coat a sword, and are there more checks involved in the coating. For those of you who misunderstood im sorry for not being clear, for those who did understand (particularly kyaran and moblin) thanks.
Wayward Son 12-02-04, 10:17 AM	Ok the thing is I'm not trying to mimic alchemelical silver either, what i want to know is if there is anything regarding the DC for actually making the stuff. The idea is alchemelical silver is not natural, its a product of alchemy, what is the DC and cost of making the real actual stuff, to coat a sword, and are there more checks involved in the coating. Originally Posted by Moblin From the SRD: Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes. I think this is the fine point you are missing. Alchemical silver isn't just coating the weapon, it is bonded to the steel as it is being forged. It is mixed and folded into the steel so that it becomes an integral part of the weapon. That's why it's listed as a special material instead of an enhancement, because it can only be applied at the weapon's initial construction. Think of it as an alloy: you can't "make" a copper item into brass by coating it in zinc, you have to melt it down and properly mix the zinc into the molten copper. It's the same with alchemical silver, in that the mixture of silver is added to the molten steel and bonds with it, becoming an entirely different substance (Alchemical Silver). So, I'm afraid you're stuck with Silversheen as the PCs' best bet for "silvered" weapons in a hurry. I applaud the player's inventiveness in thinking of using Craft(Alchemy) to solve this problem, but there is a general admonishment about allowing alchemical items to perform the same tasks, and as well, as magic items. Perhaps a silver paste that will allow a weapon to bypass DR */silver for a brief time (say, 5 or 10 rounds) could be developed. He would need a formula or the time to develop one (involving a profession:alchemist or knowledge(alchemy) check, likely around a DC 20, before the Craft check). Good luck.
Kyaran 12-02-04, 12:05 PM	Alchemical silver isn't just coating the weapon, it is bonded to the steel as it is being forged. It is mixed and folded into the steel so that it becomes an integral part of the weapon.Making an alloy using silver is different from bonding silver to steel. I think the best definition of 'bond' here is the one from chemistry: a chemical or molecular bond. It's more than just a simple coating, though, which is why my method suggests also having ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing). Whether or not to allow this is really up to the individual DM. You don't think it should be allowed; that's fine, and there are perfectly good precedents for only allowing special materials at creation. I think it should be allowed, but with a cost in time and money similar to what it would be to make a new weapon. All the other materials in the DMG say things like "items made from" or "when worked like steel." The fact that alchemical silver says "bond silver to a weapon made of steel" is enough for me to believe you can add it later. Eightbitmage: if you're still looking for official rules on how to do this, I don't think anything specifically covers it. The closest match I found was the rules for using the Craft skill, and I just made up some DCs (which is sometimes required ;)). Normally, you'd use the same DC as creating the weapon, with the additional cost of the silver factored into production and the time taken.
iKitten 12-02-04, 12:55 PM	Awww, where's the kick down the door style of "I'll deal with it as it comes up" gameplay? It's only DR 5/silver or DR 10/silver. =^_^=