Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurenda 02-02-05, 09:25 PM	How many time have you looked a players character sheet and seen something similar to the following under currency CP - 100000 SP - 163 GP - 45000 PP - 4 Frankly finding those large amounts of money in monsters liars tends to get annoying, as well as using spells, items, or strength to haul it back to town and around with you. How many Towns and Cities actually have banks for the adventurer's to use? Also thieves abound when this much coin are around and the players wouldn't miss a few stray coins over a long time period. I often wondered why the bar system wasn't used in more campagins. Found in the DMg under goods, bars of precious metals CB - 1 sp SB - 1 gp GB - 1 pp PB - 10 pp But even then it gets to the point where large amounts of space are used to store goods and currency. Although the bars do make it more convient. I've heard of other methods such as gems being used to represent wealth with etchings of kingdoms, or having a gem and it's face value represent character wealth of a large amount. Still it seems unconventional. Eberron recently came with the idea of notes of credit, and it works rather nicely I though. Unfortunately for most other campagin settings there is no organized bank system like that of Eberron. How do all of you handle mass amounts of currency gain your games? What do your players do with the 100000 cps they find in an ogres liar when they are no where near a metropolis to change these coins(hopefully after washing) into platnum? This includes items like that found in the good section and the masses of non masterwork weaponry. Using magic is good and all, but Leomund's chest is a bit too high for most adventurer's starting out. Where do your adventure's put it all?
ManinDarkness 02-02-05, 09:49 PM	Nitpicking, the bars in the DMG value the equivalent of 50 pieces of their metal, not 10. Gems, large bars of precious metal (1, 2, 5 and 10 pound bars, a coin weights 1/50 of a pound), exotic spices, and other trade goods where common means of transporting large quantities of money, so that is what I usually give. If my PCs can't take all the treasure, they can't take it. So after a while, they have bags of holding. My prefered method would be to have spare draft horses though.
Vanigo 02-02-05, 09:56 PM	:looks at the thread title: How about rare booze? :D
nakedpinkelf 02-02-05, 10:10 PM	hmm most my PCs like to go to a store and change the coins over (i let this happen but i generally only let them change a few cause the gp is more rare to merchants and they generally trade in goods so to the next thing just give the PCs art objects etc there was a post about that somewhere here where u give them like vases etc and as DM u can change it to have notes if you like that or something
Saurenda 02-02-05, 10:29 PM	:looks at the thread title: How about rare booze? :D Your ingenious ideas no doubt lead to you winning that uncon prize sir. :D I love the idea, but how to keep the adventurers, espically the dwarves of the party from drinking thier hard earned ale? ManinDarkness your right. I didn't recheck first, shame on me. Spare draft horses you say? Very nice ^^ Thanks guys.
Fixxxer 02-02-05, 11:11 PM	Frankly, I'm suprised that no one has pointed out Bags of Holding yet. It really seems to be the standard PC fallback for transporting unrealistic amounts of coin around. In my own game, there is a banking system that utilizes letters of credit...at least, there's such a system in the handful of nations that belong to the empire. When travelling to or through a nation that doesn't sprot a banking system, I've found that gems, dyes, spices and perfumes (all expensive, but light items) are a good way to carry portible wealth around without having to deal with the weight or the obviousness of wealth. This generally ends up being beneficial to a PC in another way as well. If a PC trades in his wealth for such exotic items at point A, when he reaches his destination halfway around the world at point B, he can generally sell the exotics for more than he paid for them, since he's now transported them to a place where they're probably less availible.
artman 02-02-05, 11:50 PM	I'm with Fix on this one. My players, when they don't lose the sheet that their wealth is written on, usually carry it around in a bag of holding. Very useful. There was an old trick in 2e, don't know how it works in 3.x, wherein you take the bag with your cash to a rocky outcropping that you are very familiar with, enough so that you could 'port there if needed. You cast meld into stone, drop the bag in the stone, exit the rock. Now your loot is safe until you come back for it. It is not vvery likely that anyone else will find it and it can't get stolen in town.
The Colonel 02-03-05, 12:24 AM	First trick: Don't give it out as coin in the first place. Put the consumer goods, and art and masterwork weapons and the enemy's salvagable equipment in the pile and add the rest as cash - after all, where do your savage humanoids get all this cash from and who mints it? Half the time your orcs 'who have been raiding caravans' have stolen not caravan goods but what appears to be the proceeds of a bank job. Some of it may come from the payroll, but not all surely. And why haven't they spent it yet? Then, yes, trade bars, gems and letters of credit between advanced areas or along trade routes.
Orcboss 02-03-05, 12:57 AM	Gems and jewelry tend to be a pretty good way to hang on to large amounts of gp. On the other hand, you could buy a herd of cattle and just make your wealth walk with you. :)
Talanall 02-03-05, 01:17 AM	As other folks have already pointed out, gems and letters of credit are good solutions. So are various art objects (golden statues of nekkid elf women, and so on, besides being stimulating to the casual viewer, are worth money). Trade objects are another good option; spices, perfumes, and other lightweight but rare and valuable things work nicely. If you don't mind, as a DM, a touch of bookkeeping, you can also let your PCs use their wealth for other things. Real estate, for example. My PCs often want to buy a house or business, so that it'll be harder for people to walk off with their money. Other useful investments, depending on the PCs' alignment, include things like diamond dust, other rare spell components, and illegal drugs. Diamond dust (and other gem dusts) are useful in trade with almost any wizard or cleric, for example, because so many spells use it as a component. The same goes for black sapphires, onyx stones, and other things that are consumed as spell components or focii. Finally, illegal drugs, while they cause suffering to vast numbers of people and can get you arrested or killed, are valuable and can be readily liquidated into cash.
Joe Khol 02-03-05, 05:40 AM	Think about this for a moment. Why are there all those dungeons full of cash and treasure for the PCs to 'liberate'? Because there is no other way to store large amounts of wealth. If the PCs manage to obtain large amounts of cumbersome treasure, they need a vault or dungeon, with magic, traps and guards to protect it while they're out adventuring. I do agree with varying treasure beyond cash - gems, jewellery, art and antiques. I don't do that for the PCs convenience though. That two foot golden statue they could manhandle back to town might be solid gold and would millions or it could be a cheap imitation. Suddenly, Appraise becomes worth having.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 05:57 AM	Guys, let's think about this. Does currency in the US consist solely of $20 dollar bills? Hell no, there's 50s, 100s, and major corporations and banks use bills that have 10000 dollar denominations. Sure, they don't print a whole lot, but they're there. It's what I did in my campaign. PCs can get 100gp coins as loot. When I tell them "You find 1000 gp" it's not 1000 coins. No sir, they find 50s, 25s, 100s and ones all mixed in together. This makes it easier to carry and buy expensive things. (Ever paid for a house in dollar bills?) In addition, I do the whole gem and letter of credit thing, too.
Asciiman 02-03-05, 06:44 AM	Guys, let's think about this. Does currency in the US consist solely of $20 dollar bills? Hell no, there's 50s, 100s, and major corporations and banks use bills that have 10000 dollar denominations. Sure, they don't print a whole lot, but they're there. It's what I did in my campaign. PCs can get 100gp coins as loot. When I tell them "You find 1000 gp" it's not 1000 coins. No sir, they find 50s, 25s, 100s and ones all mixed in together. This makes it easier to carry and buy expensive things. (Ever paid for a house in dollar bills?) In addition, I do the whole gem and letter of credit thing, too. So let me get this straight Draco, in your game world, you'd be willing to trade me 1000 gold coins, for one of my gold coins that has the number 1000 on it? For freaks sake, you have to be kidding me!!! Oh sure I'd take this deal but no way would I ever go the other way for one simple reason. Gold is a precious metal. Stamping the number 1000, 100, 2500 in no way changes it's value. It is still a gold coin, made of precious metal, that wieghs the same as a gold coin without a number on it. Its value is the exact same as a coin WITHOUT a number on it. Stamping numbers on it would never ever work because of this reason and it leaves a major hole in your campaign for terms of logic if you do this. Now that being said why not just do what I do. Let the PC's trade up to PP at no cost and be done with it. This hardly seems to be an issue worth spending any more time on it then necessary.
11d7 02-03-05, 07:07 AM	All nations in the world I'm building use Banks. Most treasure PCs get has been enemy equipment and other things that would be logicly found at the site of adventure, very little of this is coin. People usualy dont even carry coin with them between towns or nations at all, the bank can just send the bank over in the next town or nation a message with their magic message sending device to get the account Information from the home bank then.....well you get the idea.
ECOM 02-03-05, 07:22 AM	Hey how about a 6' diamiter, 10' deep pit that you can put into your pocket. For just 20,000gp each you to can carry hords of wealth around with no one the wiser. Seriously Anyone have any idea how many coins will fit into a portable hole. As mentioned Gems, Jewlery, Trade goods will all reduce the wieght of wealth Drugs and livestock are to much of a hassle but options. potions are also a good option as are spell scrolls (if these are buy/sell items) I use square coins in my world with a small square hole in the middle. Merchants use rods that will hold 100 coins each and boxes that hold 100 rods (this is mostly for easy counting ans storage)
Gemstone 02-03-05, 08:16 AM	The Epic Level Handbook presents a system that makes book keeping a lot easier for large amounts of money... Im seriously figuring about starting to always pay full price for gems (even though it would make less sense) just so that my players won't need to carry around SO freakin much gold. A wizard in the group for example, is figuring about getting Epic spellcasting soon and it would require so much gold that he needs a way to pay it of... but here's another solution: Cooper plate 1 sp Silver plate 1 gp Gold plate 1 pp Platinum plate 10 pp Silver bar 10 silver plates (10 gp) Gold bar 100 gold plates (1000 gp) Platinum bar 1000 Platinum plates (100 000 gp) The Platinum bars are pretty usefull when trading since they are worth a total of 100 000 gp per bar. Note that Platinum and gold bars are very rare.
Fixxxer 02-03-05, 09:56 AM	Gold is a precious metal. Stamping the number 1000, 100, 2500 in no way changes it's value. It is still a gold coin, made of precious metal, that wieghs the same as a gold coin without a number on it. Its value is the exact same as a coin WITHOUT a number on it. I'm afraid he's right, Draco Strang. In a society like ours, where we use slips of paper to represent the worth of the fortune our nation possesses, it makes sense to use several different types of bills in order to represent larger and smaller values. However, in a society that still uses the nation's fortune itself as currency (like the one in basic D&D), it doesn't make much sense at all unless you either increase the amount of material in the individual coin (or bar or block or whatever) or you use other materials with higher or lower values to suppliment (such as platinum and copper). You see, in our society, we don't generally circulate the actual precious metals that make up our treasury. A single dollar bill is basically a letter of credit that states "The bearer of this piece of paper is entitled to 1 ounce of silver" (of course, an ounce of silver is actually worth more like $6, but for the purposes of this example, I'm going to use it). In this way, we're able to insure that our wealth doesn't fall into another nation's pockets a little bit at a time until we have no more precious metals. Additionally, it allows the government a lot more freedom concerning the release of funds into the economy. In a society such as the kind suggested in D&D, the nations are still using the materials themselves as currency. A single silver coin isn't a letter of credit worth 1 ounce of silver...it's an ounce of silver. No matter where you take it in the world, it's worth an ounce of silver (granted, the trade rate for an ounce of silver might vary from region to region). Because of this, it doesn't make any sense to mint coins that are supposed to be worth more without making the coins themselves worth more. This is why platinum pieces exist. Platinum is worth more thangold, so a platinum coin is worth more than a gold coin of the same weight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you how you should run things in your own game or anything. I'm just pointing out that if you would like a touch more realism, you might think about abandoning the 1000gp coin idea and introducing coins made from other precious materials (such as jade, ruby, meteoric metal, etc) instead.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 09:56 AM	So let me get this straight Draco, in your game world, you'd be willing to trade me 1000 gold coins, for one of my gold coins that has the number 1000 on it? For freaks sake, you have to be kidding me!!! Oh sure I'd take this deal but no way would I ever go the other way for one simple reason. Gold is a precious metal. Stamping the number 1000, 100, 2500 in no way changes it's value. It is still a gold coin, made of precious metal, that wieghs the same as a gold coin without a number on it. Its value is the exact same as a coin WITHOUT a number on it. Stamping numbers on it would never ever work because of this reason and it leaves a major hole in your campaign for terms of logic if you do this. Now that being said why not just do what I do. Let the PC's trade up to PP at no cost and be done with it. This hardly seems to be an issue worth spending any more time on it then necessary. Ok Asciiman, before you come back and lambast my intelligence again, let's stop and examine my logic: Yes, two gold coins with different numbers stamped on them are in fact, worth exactly the same to any tradesman who's not a moron. That's why they're different sizes, hoss. Now, you're going to mention the density of gold, and say that all this weight adds up. damn straight it does. That's why the 1 gp coins are really really small, and the 1000 gp coins are bigger. How much bigger? Surely not 1000 times bigger. Each coin has a specific density, as they're alloyed in with other metals as both a weight-control method and as a counterfeiting deterrent. If a merchant thinks he's being cheated, then all he has to do is take his money down to the local government agency, and they've got sets of balances and scales that determine if the proper denomination of coin is as dense as it should be. So no, each coin isn't made of pure gold, but it's almost impossible for the common counterfeiter to discover these ratios and duplicate them, thus shafting the economy. So you'll say, "Draco, what's to stop people from bringing in X amount of gold and just minting 1000gp coins?" Answer is, not a damn thing. You see, each denomination has to have a certain amount of gold in it, in addition to the other, less valuable base metals that make up the rest of the coin. So, it's really no skin off the ruler's nose if someone manages to do good counterfeits, because there is no treasury to devalue. Each coin in circulation adds that much more to the kingdom's net worth. This is even if they managed to steal/manufacture proper molds for the coins. Now, if there was a gold treasury that backed, say, a copper-based currency, then them bringing in more copper and churning out coins would in fact devalue the currency, and bring about economic instability. However, that's not the case here. Oh, and the PCs actually did bust a counterfeiter once, who was mixing lead into the currency, but was discovered because his coins were unnaturally heavy. Care to come back at me again? P.S.-With that said, how do you expect your PCs to stop at the local inn and buy a round of weak ales with a friggin platinum piece? No common bartender would ever be able to make change for it, as it comprises a significant portion of his total worth.
Habronicus 02-03-05, 10:57 AM	Well, in my homebrew settings, there are magical banks. Basically, you deposit what you want in one city, and can withdraw in another. The service costs money, though, depending on what you deposit and for how long. And you can't withdraw in small settlements (small population can't maintain the upkeep). In other settings, like Greyhawk, I just assume that the PCs can go to the local shops or innkeeper and trade money. The only rule I apply is: - Thorps, Hamlets and Villages can only trade for Copper - Towns can trade up to Silver - Cities can trade up to Gold - Capital-cities or Metropolis can trade up to Platinum - Traded number of coins can't exceed 5x number of population I'm flexible, though. If the players are in dire need to lose some weight I may allow for a small town to have some more Silver coins to spare, or even a few golds.
Saurenda 02-03-05, 11:16 AM	Guys, let's think about this. Does currency in the US consist solely of $20 dollar bills? Hell no, there's 50s, 100s, and major corporations and banks use bills that have 10000 dollar denominations. Sure, they don't print a whole lot, but they're there. It's what I did in my campaign. PCs can get 100gp coins as loot. When I tell them "You find 1000 gp" it's not 1000 coins. No sir, they find 50s, 25s, 100s and ones all mixed in together. This makes it easier to carry and buy expensive things. (Ever paid for a house in dollar bills?) In addition, I do the whole gem and letter of credit thing, too. I'm afraid I'm a bit lost sir. What prevents forgery of a 100 gold coin from a 10 gold coin? Is there a special means of detecting forgeries? I don't think it was an attack on intelligence so much as asking how forgery doesn't come into play. Again I don't see villages and most towns having a banking system that the adventurer's can use in campaigns settings without throwing places with inflation. It puts money into teh system that previously wan't there causing currency to lose value. Or at least I think it does? Oo; Hab that sounds great. Very plausable, thank you for sharing ^^ Gem I didn't notice that in the ELHB, I'll take another look and thanks for the reminder. Thanks everyone. =D
Mr. NewFox 02-03-05, 11:49 AM	You can have notes of credit and such without actualy banks (which were a an invention more of the industrial revolution than anything). Most places and ages have moneylenders, or at least powerful families that act like moneylenders. I'm sure that some of the noble families in town have a good side business as a kind of private "savings and lone" outfit. This could lead to some fun NPC interaction for your PCs too. You can even make a plot hook out of it. The local baron could "charge" the PCs a nominal "fee" for gurading their treaure, which the players agree to pay... until they find out that the baron has been making lones off the money, with interest! Do they approach the baron to get their cut? Or perhaps a debtor defaults-- do the PCs go after him?
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 12:38 PM	I'm afraid I'm a bit lost sir. What prevents forgery of a 100 gold coin from a 10 gold coin? Is there a special means of detecting forgeries? I don't think it was an attack on intelligence so much as asking how forgery doesn't come into play. Again I don't see villages and most towns having a banking system that the adventurer's can use in campaigns settings without throwing places with inflation. It puts money into teh system that previously wan't there causing currency to lose value. Or at least I think it does? Oo; Hab that sounds great. Very plausable, thank you for sharing ^^ Gem I didn't notice that in the ELHB, I'll take another look and thanks for the reminder. Thanks everyone. =D Well, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "difference between 100 gp coin and 10 gp coin forgeries". However, I mentioned in my above post that each denomination has it's own certain percentage of gold and other metals, thus giving it it's own, unalterable density. (Coins are all minted in one place, under govt. control, with access to precise measuring tools) So, it'd be really hard for your average crook to discover the ratio of gold to base metals. For example, say it's 40 parts gold to 35.25 parts copper to 24.75 parts tin. It's gonna be hard for your average smuggler to duplicate that exactly, especially when any currency in question can just be measured by suspicious parties at a local govt. agency. Does that help any?
Saurenda 02-03-05, 01:15 PM	Does that help any? I'm afraid not. It tells me you haven't considered that talented PCs may choose to abuse the system. I'd hardly consider them average or smugglers. They are counterfiters and elite. Varying the amount of metal used with alchemy checks and having masterwoork tools along with some magic and enough forgery skills is enough to break that, unless you constantly make excuses and add conditions to the system. Unless by varying the amount you mean that there is a gold coin of obvious larger size that is undoubtly worth more by the amount of gold placed into, making it weigh the amount of a brick with about the same size a bit flattened. You can claim magical inspections and the like happen under the careful eye of the government, but a single government in a campagin series couldn't have the means or the man power to police a currency set up unless it ruled a very limited world with definite bountdries and limited resources. I doubt the government can account all those coins random adventurers constantly find anyway. That goverment couldn't have minted all the coins of the realm in the past. People will introduce more old sources of previously created wealth than new manufactured types. Unless your adventurers find that they have never seen a coin besides that of the current realm, and in that case I pity them. Thier government seems to have laid waste to all the monsterous liars previous to thier arrival echanging various coin amounts for larger denominations. I can see them echanging monsterous hoardes for said coins worth larger amounts, but not finding them randomly as such outside of civialized humanoid encounters.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 02:00 PM	I'm afraid not. It tells me you haven't considered that talented PCs may choose to abuse the system. I'd hardly consider them average or smugglers. They are counterfiters and elite. Varying the amount of metal used with alchemy checks and having masterwoork tools along with some magic and enough forgery skills is enough to break that, unless you constantly make excuses and add conditions to the system. Unless by varying the amount you mean that there is a gold coin of obvious larger size that is undoubtly worth more by the amount of gold placed into, making it weigh the amount of a brick with about the same size a bit flattened. You can claim magical inspections and the like happen under the careful eye of the government, but a single government in a campagin series couldn't have the means or the man power to police a currency set up unless it ruled a very limited world with definite bountdries and limited resources. I doubt the government can account all those coins random adventurers constantly find anyway. That goverment couldn't have minted all the coins of the realm in the past. People will introduce more old sources of previously created wealth than new manufactured types. Unless your adventurers find that they have never seen a coin besides that of the current realm, and in that case I pity them. Thier government seems to have laid waste to all the monsterous liars previous to thier arrival echanging various coin amounts for larger denominations. I can see them echanging monsterous hoardes for said coins worth larger amounts, but not finding them randomly as such outside of civialized humanoid encounters. First of all, it's not a magical inspection, it's a relatively complicated (to your average commoner) series of formulae and ratios (that I use skill checks for, I haven't sat down and written them out after consulting my old high school chemistry texts) that uses base density and the masses of metals. Also, why couldn't the major cities have government endorsed counting houses that are equipped with the means to actually determine the value of said coins? After all, it's part of their job descriptions. Anyways, as I said, they're job is only to regulate any currency brought to their attention. Once the govt. mints it and distributes it, all they really care about is that it gets spent. The only time the money gets brought back to them is if someone feels that it's not the real deal, and then the verification process begins. They don't walk from shop to shop with a balance, checking random coins. No, these things don't weigh as much as a brick. a single gp coin is pretty much a metal wafer, weighing less than an oz., while the heaviest, most valuable coins weigh no more than a pound, give or take. And as I said before, largest diameter of a coin is about that of a baseball, so they aren't dragging around serving-platter size currency. What I mean by having more gold in the bigger coins is in terms of percent composition. The little coins have a tiny, almost miniscule amount of actual gold, whilst the larger ones have something approaching say, 30-40 percent. The rest, as stated before, is composed of other metals (and the more valuable coins use more valuable metals, say zinc, aluminum, and what have you) in both an effort to recognize their relative superior value, and to offset the added mass of the extra gold. After all, wouldn't want to couple gold with lead, would you? And yes, you are right, when they're rolling the ancient wyrm's hoard, it wouldn't make sense for them to find these coins that have been minted by this kingdom, but what about when they knock over the bandit stronghold, or take care of some orcs, or even kill the trolls that have been giving shipping almighty hell as of late? Is it ok if they carry around some of the local specie, since it's what is available from those they kill? I give the gems, magic scepters, and jeweled coffers to the monsters that wouldn't really want to carry around 10000 pounds of metal anyway. Your loot should be portable. So yes, if they do find coins on a monster's hoard, I usually make them silver, copper, or even platinum, in an effort to give realism and variety. After all, those metals are still in use in my world, since it's what the average-joe farmer and shopkeeper use to buy their food and clothing, and the platinum is even more portable than your standard gp, and translates well across borders. Why do you keep thinking my system is so doomed to fail? So far I've done a pretty good job of explaining how the finances work without taking any leaps and bounds regarding your sense of belief. P.S.- You seem to think that my PCs would have no trouble trying to copy this money with Alchemy, Craft, and Forgery skills. However, what kind of skill checks/DCs would they have to make, and your logic behind it? (Not to mention they're a good party, and so far haven't thought of abusing the system in that way, though you do raise an interesting point) First they'd need to make a pretty tough Alchemy check to figure out the exact percentages, so as to pass off convincing fakes. Then, they'd need to pass a pretty high Craft DC to make the molds, not sure which craft though (metal work? Sculpture?) and THEN a successful Forgery check to duplicate the etchings in the mold that lead to the raised surfaces on the coins. I would say the Alchemy DC would have to be in the high 20s to low 30s, with the craft check at about 25, and then the forgery check would have to be really high, mid 30s at least. Have you ever made a sand mold? I have, in Metals, and it's damn hard to get them to look good, let alone an exact replica of something made by the government, who has already taken into consideration that someone will try to fake them, and so has already taken pains to make it difficult to fake.
Vanigo 02-03-05, 03:36 PM	First they'd need to make a pretty tough Alchemy check to figure out the exact percentages, so as to pass off convincing fakes. Then, they'd need to pass a pretty high Craft DC to make the molds, not sure which craft though (metal work? Sculpture?) and THEN a successful Forgery check to duplicate the etchings in the mold that lead to the raised surfaces on the coins. I would say the Alchemy DC would have to be in the high 20s to low 30s, with the craft check at about 25, and then the forgery check would have to be really high, mid 30s at least. Have you ever made a sand mold? I have, in Metals, and it's damn hard to get them to look good, let alone an exact replica of something made by the government, who has already taken into consideration that someone will try to fake them, and so has already taken pains to make it difficult to fake. Please. You don't have to get the exact percentages; you just need an alloy with the same density, and the density is trivial for a good alchemist to find. (As a matter of fact, you don't even want the same alloy, because then you'd be using just as much gold as you'd be getting coins worth). You don't use a sand mold, you make the mold out of molten iron because you're an adventurer (or maybe a crime lord) with access to resist elements (fire) to keep the coin from melting. Or maybe you use stone shape to mold rock around the coin, then melt the coin out. And remember, a gold coin is going to be very soft, so some slight imperfections can be easily explained as natural wear and tear. Now, sure, good PCs wouldn't do this (or at least not LG PCs...), but someone in the world will. BTW, Fixxer, if you're referring to silver-backed dollars, I don't think they don't do that anymore. They used to only print dollar bills that said that you could take them to the government and trade them for a dollar's worth of silver, but once people got used to paper currency, they stopped bothering. They just said "this is a dollar" and everyone said "okay". Everyone says "okay" because they know everyone else will say "okay". (They'll still give you the silver if you can find an old bill, though.) As far as suggestions go, why not just invent some new precious metals? Maybe a regalium piece (which shines with a deep purple luster) is worth 100 PP, for instance, and an illumium piece (which glows in the dark) is worth 100 RP.
Fixxxer 02-03-05, 04:55 PM	BTW, Fixxer, if you're referring to silver-backed dollars, I don't think they don't do that anymore. They used to only print dollar bills that said that you could take them to the government and trade them for a dollar's worth of silver, but once people got used to paper currency, they stopped bothering. They just said "this is a dollar" and everyone said "okay". Everyone says "okay" because they know everyone else will say "okay". (They'll still give you the silver if you can find an old bill, though.). They don't print silver certificates anymore, true...but the implication is still there. You can't take a dollar bill to the government and trade it for a dollar's worth of silver like you could with the SC, but it's still understood that a dollar is worth a specific weight in silver/gold/etc (I just used silver as the example). A dollar bill is basically a goverment letter of credit that says "Hey, merchant, go ahead and take this I.O.U. from the holder. He has the money, we're just holding it for him." Whoever has the dollar bill owns the money...the government just holds it in trust. Simply put, no you can't expect the government to give you actual bullion for a dollar bill like they used to (though you can sometimes get banks to trade you 1oz Morgan silver dollars for them), but the original system is still in place.
Vanigo 02-03-05, 05:23 PM	Simply put, no you can't expect the government to give you actual bullion for a dollar bill like they used to (though you can sometimes get banks to trade you 1oz Morgan silver dollars for them), but the original system is still in place. Not really. The value of a dollar is no longer defined by the amount of gold it's worth - in fact, the opposite is true. If the original system was still in place, I could walk into the supermarket with a pocket full of silver chunks and reasonably expect to buy my groceries with them.
Asciiman 02-03-05, 06:03 PM	I'm afraid your system still doesn't make sense Draco. I can see what you are saying, but really, finding any density is not hard. Heck, I only graduated highschool chemistry but I could do it. That being said, I don't think it is a necessary thing to think about to heavily. Money only exists to give the PCs things to buy and a sense of accomplishment. Why make fake money more difficult then it needs to be. But I'm not going to debate this with you Draco. I'm not the only one who sees your logic as flawed, if you want me to "come back at" you again, as you so put it, then just look to their arguments. Your system would not logically work. End of story.
Ekranoplan 02-03-05, 06:41 PM	You could incorporate electrum, mithral, adamantium, uranium, plutonium, neutronium, aluminum, germanium, terbinium and what-have-you into your coinage system.
Vanigo 02-03-05, 06:55 PM	neutronium Quite aside from the fact that a neutronium coin would weigh about as much as a herd of elephants, I'm think the stuff's highly radioactive if you take it out of a neutron star (but don't quote me on that).
Ekranoplan 02-03-05, 07:02 PM	Quite aside from the fact that a neutronium coin would weigh about as much as a herd of elephants, I'm think the stuff's highly radioactive if you take it out of a neutron star (but don't quote me on that). Ive never actually included a neutronium coin before, but considering those facts you bring up I might have to. :D
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 07:35 PM	I'm afraid your system still doesn't make sense Draco. I can see what you are saying, but really, finding any density is not hard. Heck, I only graduated highschool chemistry but I could do it. That being said, I don't think it is a necessary thing to think about to heavily. Money only exists to give the PCs things to buy and a sense of accomplishment. Why make fake money more difficult then it needs to be. Exactly, so why spend so much time refuting my system if it's only a means to an end? Ascii, the year or two of highschool chemistry you had probably has more practical knowledge crammed into it than an alchemist would have after twenty years of study, please remember that. Sure, simple percent analysis would make sense to you, but then again, you've got a fully functioning periodic table accurate down to a few electrons, scales and balances that can seperate the difference between thousandths of an ounce, and the combined learning of more chemists prior to you than I care to list. Of course it'll be a simple matter for you.
ManinDarkness 02-03-05, 07:41 PM	Not really. The value of a dollar is no longer defined by the amount of gold it's worth - in fact, the opposite is true. If the original system was still in place, I could walk into the supermarket with a pocket full of silver chunks and reasonably expect to buy my groceries with them. Unless I'm mistaken, all countries have to make their reserves on dollars at the World Bank, and the US backs all the dollars with gold. US laws prohibit the exchange of dollars for gold.
ManinDarkness 02-03-05, 08:03 PM	Ive never actually included a neutronium coin before, but considering those facts you bring up I might have to. :D Sorry, hard to resist. :plotting: That will certainly will be an economic boom. Talk about giving power to the people. Washing you hands after handling money would be more necessary. However, it has in-built anti-theft device. Forgery should be wiped over the map. :D
artman 02-03-05, 11:03 PM	The US dollar is not backed by gold. It is backed by the US economy. It's called the float system. There are hard currencies in the world that all nations measure their currencies against. These are stable ones like the US$, the euro, the yen. Other nations will stockpile these hard currencies and use them to back their currency. It's a wacky system if you're not familiar with econ. It really cuts down on inflation. edit: spelling sucks
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 11:23 PM	The US dollar is not backed by gold. It is backed by the US economy. It's called the float system. There are hard currencies in the world that all nations measure their currencies against. These are stable ones like the US$, the euro, the yen. Other nations will stockpile these hard currencies and use them to back their currency. It's a wacky system if you're not familiar with econ. It really cuts down on inflation. edit: spelling sucks Actually, I think the spelling is pretty spot on.
Saurenda 02-03-05, 11:32 PM	You could incorporate electrum, mithral, adamantium, uranium, plutonium, neutronium, aluminum, germanium, terbinium and what-have-you into your coinage system. But I don't want radioactive elves :raincloud
ECOM 02-03-05, 11:38 PM	The us went off the gold standard in 1965. so any coins older than that do have precious metals in them and are worth more than thier stamped worth. Any coins and bills printed 1965 or newer are only backed by the us econ. If the us econ. were to colapse all that money would be worth zip.
artman 02-03-05, 11:58 PM	Not zip really. It woudl still have the value of the infastructure behind it. Even whent he economy tumbles the raw matterials and structures are valuable and they would be backing the US$. It woudl suck, as we would have to start selling those items off to get out of the debt that follows a depression but... To the topic, just come up with more valuable metals and use the 10 to 1 conversion.
ThatDarnCat 02-04-05, 01:23 AM	The us went off the gold standard in 1965. so any coins older than that do have precious metals in them and are worth more than thier stamped worth. Any coins and bills printed 1965 or newer are only backed by the us econ. If the us econ. were to colapse all that money would be worth zip.You see people stockpiling gold coins and paper money all the time. Me, I stockpile bullets and food. I can always take your gold later at gunpoint... Anyway... Draco's system is authentic. For all you who don't get it, the diffurrent gold coins are not only diffurrent densities, but diffurrent sizes. You can't take a 10 and make a 100 out of it, there isn't enough metal. And if you use two then the specific gravity of the new coin will be diffurrent and a merchant could check it on a balance to see if it meets the gov'ts regulation weight:size. Coins made from precious metals have been alloyed since the Roman Empire ruled the world. The Romans weren't idiots, they alloyed silver and copper to make a metal that was harder to make forgeties of. You can't bend (biting the coin) an alloyed silver coin, but you can bend a lead core coin. And an iron core coin doesn't weigh right in your paw. You act like every PC is a chemistry wiz with an advanced degree in metalurgy. Hell I bet 90% of the pweople on this forum can't name the 3 metals that form the center of a US penny (non-yanks are exempt...) without looking it up on the net. I'm willing to bet that fewer than 5% have even seen a coin press like those used in the middle ages. I'm also willing to bet that none of you could make a passabe counterfiet coin without spending over 100,000 USD. You talk about how stupid his system is, but you don't really have a clue how money works now or how it worked 1200 years ago. So shut the hell up and use your 10CP/lb lame ass 1E coins like good gygaxians.
Vanigo 02-04-05, 01:44 AM	You act like every PC is a chemistry wiz with an advanced degree in metalurgy. Hell I bet 90% of the pweople on this forum can't name the 3 metals that form the center of a US penny (non-yanks are exempt...) without looking it up on the net. I'm willing to bet that fewer than 5% have even seen a coin press like those used in the middle ages. I'm also willing to bet that none of you could make a passabe counterfiet coin without spending over 100,000 USD. That's what contact other plane is for, my friend. An earth elemental lord could answer simple metallurgy questions with no trouble at all. And, yes, you can do it with one-word answers. "How many parts lead should I use?" "Three." Of course, he might lie, but checking your results is trivial.
Draco Strang 02-04-05, 02:17 AM	You see people stockpiling gold coins and paper money all the time. Me, I stockpile bullets and food. I can always take your gold later at gunpoint... Anyway... Draco's system is authentic. For all you who don't get it, the diffurrent gold coins are not only diffurrent densities, but diffurrent sizes. You can't take a 10 and make a 100 out of it, there isn't enough metal. And if you use two then the specific gravity of the new coin will be diffurrent and a merchant could check it on a balance to see if it meets the gov'ts regulation weight:size. Coins made from precious metals have been alloyed since the Roman Empire ruled the world. The Romans weren't idiots, they alloyed silver and copper to make a metal that was harder to make forgeties of. You can't bend (biting the coin) an alloyed silver coin, but you can bend a lead core coin. And an iron core coin doesn't weigh right in your paw. You act like every PC is a chemistry wiz with an advanced degree in metalurgy. Hell I bet 90% of the pweople on this forum can't name the 3 metals that form the center of a US penny (non-yanks are exempt...) without looking it up on the net. I'm willing to bet that fewer than 5% have even seen a coin press like those used in the middle ages. I'm also willing to bet that none of you could make a passabe counterfiet coin without spending over 100,000 USD. You talk about how stupid his system is, but you don't really have a clue how money works now or how it worked 1200 years ago. So shut the hell up and use your 10CP/lb lame ass 1E coins like good gygaxians. YES!!!! I HAVE BEEN VINDICATED!!! haha, thanks for the backup ThatDarnCat, I knew someone would come in to help. Vanigo, how many 10th level experts in your average mid-sized town are gonna have the resources to contact an earth elemental? And if they do, do they speak Terran?
Art_Tillary 02-04-05, 03:03 AM	I think one thing was overlooked in Draco's coin system. Historically, as far as I have read, the actual weight of the coin wasn't the primary concern. When minted, there would be 50 silver coins to the pound. It would have been an alloy as was stated by others, and is part of Draco's system. If you took 50 silver pieces which had been in circulation for 10 or 20 years they would no longer add up to a pound. it would probably be close, but noticeable. But, you would still have 50 silver pieces. you would not have lost any value based upon the weight. One of the problems they had until the 1700s or so was clipping. People would shave a just a bit off the edge of each coin. Melt all the shavings together and bring it into the assay mint to get new coins for basically nothing. it was the introducation of the side ridges that stoppe that. AT
Asciiman 02-04-05, 04:53 AM	You see people stockpiling gold coins and paper money all the time. Me, I stockpile bullets and food. I can always take your gold later at gunpoint... I am SOOOO sigging this!!!
Draco Strang 02-04-05, 05:52 AM	I think one thing was overlooked in Draco's coin system. Historically, as far as I have read, the actual weight of the coin wasn't the primary concern. When minted, there would be 50 silver coins to the pound. It would have been an alloy as was stated by others, and is part of Draco's system. If you took 50 silver pieces which had been in circulation for 10 or 20 years they would no longer add up to a pound. it would probably be close, but noticeable. But, you would still have 50 silver pieces. you would not have lost any value based upon the weight. One of the problems they had until the 1700s or so was clipping. People would shave a just a bit off the edge of each coin. Melt all the shavings together and bring it into the assay mint to get new coins for basically nothing. it was the introducation of the side ridges that stoppe that. AT Yea, well shaving and clipping have been problems for every currency in use until the U.S. decided to put ridges on their more valuable coins. If this ever came up, I'd just say that's how they were minted. Oh, and if they DID shave coins, they'd be slightly underweight, as would show up on these ridiculously sensitive balances. It's good we agree now, though.
Fredrik Svanberg 02-04-05, 05:54 AM	Frobozz' Fantastic Calculations Divination Level: Sor/Wiz 0, Bard 0 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Any number of coins, stacked or in a pile Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell allows the caster to immediately know the value of a pile of uncounted coins, and their exact denominations. Arcane Material Focus: A small abacus. Frobozz' Magical Exchange Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Bard 2 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Touch Target: Any number of coins, stacked or in a pile Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell takes any number of coins and transforms them to coins of the same value but at a higher denomination. 10 cp becomes 1 sp, 10 sp becomes 1 gp and 10 gp becomes 1 pp. Each transformation requires a separate casting of the spell, e.g. for 1000 cp to become 1 pp requires the spell to be cast four times. The spell can also be used in reverse, to turn high denomination coins into lower denominations. Arcane Material Focus: A set of scales and weights worth 100 gp. Frobozz' Instant Cheques Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Bard 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Any number of coins, stacked or in a pile Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell takes any number of coins and transforms them into a small scroll showing the value and denominations of the coins in flowing script of the same color as the coin metal - copper, silver, golden or platinum. A magical glowing rune proves that the cheque is genuine and will also reveal the creator of the cheque if viewed with a Read Magic spell. If the caster doesn't know the correct value of the targeted coins the spell fails. The cheque can be transmuted back into money by simply tearing it in half. Material Component: A small scroll, special ink and a pen made from a giant eagle's feather, worth 50 gp.
Draco Strang 02-04-05, 06:32 AM	Did you make these up yourself? It seems they make bags of holding and encumberance a thing of the past. Or, where'd you get them from?
Fredrik Svanberg 02-04-05, 06:43 AM	I just made them up on the fly as something a magical society overburdened with precious metal coinage ought to have developed a long time ago.
Draco Strang 02-04-05, 06:55 AM	Actually there's a spell in Song and Silence that is called Easy Math, it's for Bards. Measures currency to like, 10 percent of the value presented.
Vanigo 02-04-05, 02:06 PM	Vanigo, how many 10th level experts in your average mid-sized town are gonna have the resources to contact an earth elemental? And if they do, do they speak Terran? One. The guy with contacts in the thieves' guild. And even if you rule that the spellcaster the thieves' guild hires has to know the language of the entity he contacts, well, a simple tongues spell can fix that easily enough.
Draco Strang 02-04-05, 03:24 PM	One. The guy with contacts in the thieves' guild. And even if you rule that the spellcaster the thieves' guild hires has to know the language of the entity he contacts, well, a simple tongues spell can fix that easily enough. Alright, and what happens In the beautiful little village of Hommelet? It's big enough to warrant a small garrison and government presence, but definitely not a thieves guild. I only ask because you pose some valid solutions. And as a side note, Summoning an earth elemental is a pretty big proposition, how many casters for hire just up and do it for kicks in the middle of a town? I'm certain there'd be laws against summonings inside the city walls.
Vanigo 02-04-05, 03:37 PM	Alright, and what happens In the beautiful little village of Hommelet? It's big enough to warrant a small garrison and government presence, but definitely not a thieves guild. I only ask because you pose some valid solutions. And as a side note, Summoning an earth elemental is a pretty big proposition, how many casters for hire just up and do it for kicks in the middle of a town? I'm certain there'd be laws against summonings inside the city walls. In a village? Nothing, counterfiet-wise. Even if it only happens in the big cities with well-organized thieves' guilds it's enough to be a huge problem, though. And I didn't say anything about summoning an earth elemental. I said you use contact other plane, which is much easier. Worst case scenario, you roll a natural one on your DC 7 will save and your int and charisma are reduced to 8 for a week.
Draco Strang 02-05-05, 01:25 AM	In a village? Nothing, counterfiet-wise. Even if it only happens in the big cities with well-organized thieves' guilds it's enough to be a huge problem, though. And I didn't say anything about summoning an earth elemental. I said you use contact other plane, which is much easier. Worst case scenario, you roll a natural one on your DC 7 will save and your int and charisma are reduced to 8 for a week. Exactly, it's not possible to take care of business your way in any village at any given time. And dammit, you did say contact other plane, not summon. I need to read better.
Quenditar 02-05-05, 02:11 AM	Unless I'm mistaken, all countries have to make their reserves on dollars at the World Bank, and the US backs all the dollars with gold. US laws prohibit the exchange of dollars for gold. Nixon ended that system in 1971, I believe. (I might be off on the date.) The fixed exchange rate system went out at about the same time.
wombat31 02-05-05, 02:25 AM	Hey how about a 6' diamiter, 10' deep pit that you can put into your pocket. For just 20,000gp each you to can carry hords of wealth around with no one the wiser. Seriously Anyone have any idea how many coins will fit into a portable hole. just using some rough calucalations about 465000 give or take a bit so yes you could carry quite a bit of coins in a portable hole
Quenditar 02-05-05, 03:12 AM	Draco's system is authentic. For all you who don't get it, the diffurrent gold coins are not only diffurrent densities, but diffurrent sizes. You can't take a 10 and make a 100 out of it, there isn't enough metal. And if you use two then the specific gravity of the new coin will be diffurrent and a merchant could check it on a balance to see if it meets the gov'ts regulation weight:size. Coins made from precious metals have been alloyed since the Roman Empire ruled the world. The Romans weren't idiots, they alloyed silver and copper to make a metal that was harder to make forgeties of. Alloys have always been used because pure precious metals are soft and easily worn. That, and increasing the proportion of base metal was a subtle way to debase the coinage. The use of special alloys to deter counterfeiting is a modern invention (modern meaning "after 1600") that was made possible by the widespread use of mechanical presses. You can't bend (biting the coin) an alloyed silver coin, but you can bend a lead core coin. And an iron core coin doesn't weigh right in your paw. You act like every PC is a chemistry wiz with an advanced degree in metalurgy. Hell I bet 90% of the pweople on this forum can't name the 3 metals that form the center of a US penny (non-yanks are exempt...) without looking it up on the net. I'm willing to bet that fewer than 5% have even seen a coin press like those used in the middle ages. I'm also willing to bet that none of you could make a passabe counterfiet coin without spending over 100,000 USD. I think you're thinking of the 1800s. Coin presses weren't used in the Middle Ages. The usual technology was for the moneyer to hold one die between his legs, place a blank on top of it, place the other die above the blank, and hit the top die hard with a hammer. Hammering technology produced coins of irregular shape (regular round coins were impossible to make consistently before the use of the screw press in the late 1500s/early 1600s) and was easily counterfeited, since the same technology was used to strike ornamental metals. Any goldsmith had the tools to make counterfeit dies and strike coins the same way a mint did. You talk about how stupid his system is, but you don't really have a clue how money works now or how it worked 1200 years ago. So shut the hell up and use your 10CP/lb lame ass 1E coins like good gygaxians. Would you please learn your subject before insulting the rest of us? There are several good books on how money worked 1200 years ago - I read Peter Spufford's Money and Its Use in Medieval Europe and I would highly recommend that you and Draco do the same. Thomas Sargent's The Big Problem of Small Change is another fine book, especially the amount of attention it pays to the technology of coinage and counterfeiting. Carlo Cipolla did much of the foundational work in this field, though I haven't read any of his books. Draco's system has a slim, very slim, chance of working. It would work if and only if the country that uses it is isolated from world trade, has no capable rivals, some very effective anti-counterfeiting system, and has a very responsible government. True fiat money did not exist, but overvalued coins (net of bullion value, seignoriage, and brassage) did exist in some areas for fairly short periods of time (a few generations at most). The result was heavy counterfeiting not just inside the country, but by foreign mints as well. Spufford includes the incident of the Christian millarenses being minted in France and shipped to Tunisia and the Aragonese counterfeiting of Castilian coins (this was during a civil war when Castilian coins were much debased). Sargent recounts the experience of Gerona and other Catalan cities that issued overvalued small change; they had to call in and recoin their money every few decades because of the number of counterfeits. So if "Dracoland" has any neighbors, counterfeit currency will enter and eventually drive his currency down to bullion value (plus seignoriage and brassage) or he will have to strengthen his money. Now, some fiat currencies didn't collapse from counterfeits; the paper money of Song China and the Castilian vellón coins. Both were instead done in by inflation caused by a desperate government (E.J. Hamilton's American Treasure and the Price Revolution in Spain, 1501–1650 has a detailed account of the Castilian case, as does Domínguez Ortíz's Politica y Hacienda de Felipe IV, which relies on Hamilton for data but is more vivid in description). Although not approaching modern hyperinflation, the scale of inflation was more than a medieval economy could handle and led to economic collapse and an insistence on sound money in the future. To put it bluntly, Draco's system as outlined is doomed to failure, probably within two generations. Most likely it will be overwhelmed with counterfeits. A general collapse of the monetary system is also very likely as the overvaluation of large coins leads to the disappearance of small coins and economic collapse. Really, use bills of exchange or banks if possible in your world. Or gemstones. P.S. Ingots of precious metal are (using D&D's silly assumptions about coinage) just coins in big blocks. They're easier to handle, but the same weight as equivalent coins. P.P.S. Yes, D&D coinage is quite unrealistic. And the other players would kill me in my sleep if I tried to make it more realistic.
Saurenda 02-05-05, 11:01 PM	Some nice ideas here and some not so nice ideas. Thanks guys. Fredrick's spells seem very nice for mundane coinage, though I think it is a very powerful act to transmute one metal into another. Then again I'm no arcanist, and the money transformed can only be made into other coins of equal value. I've got quite a few good ideas from this thread to use in my next campaign which hopefully will start this upcoming week. Having the means of alternative currency was necessary for a Greyhawk/Eberron game in which the PCs will not have access to banks outside of a self contained dungeon. I aplaude everyone's efforts, and thank you again.