Aligments woes for a DM newbie. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Aligments woes for a DM newbie. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raytow
08-20-05, 10:29 AM Greetings,
I started DMing D&D a month ago(3.5), right now i'm with the Sunless Citadel module, and the PCs(a NE mage, CG barb, LN monk, and NG clr) are helping the kobolds right now, the problem is they are going to kill all the kobolds, while pretending to help them, the excuse is "that kobolds are evil creatures" don't know if the monk and cleric should get an aligment change if they finally kill the kobolds, should the change(if any) be immediate, or should i take note?
Discordia
08-20-05, 10:39 AM Killing the kobolds in that manner is definitely an evil act, especially when perpetrated by a good character. However, it's not necessary to shift their alignments after the first evil act. Be sure to keep track of their actions, and if they're consistently doing things like this, then you should change their alignment. In the meantime, you may wish to assign some XP penalties for the good characters, as they're really not role-playing their characters properly.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon
08-20-05, 10:46 AM Good is not aloud to kill evil just because they are evil. And just to mess with them, make some of the kobolds nuetral. You can do it, it may be a published adventure but you are allowed to change whatever you like

Betrayal is evil.

If the group of kobolds include children(I do not know because I do not have the adventure) and eggs, they cannot kill those without an alingment change down.

Edit: Why wouldn't the barbarian get and alignment change?
ramzafft1
08-20-05, 10:57 AM But the mage probably wouldn't change from doing that, since he is evil...
Is that maybe a typo?
And if it isn't, casually remind the evil player that the "good" guys could easily turn on him at any moment. That culd make the evil player more suspicious... which, in my experience, can lead to better roleplaying...
or some player killing, depending on the player.
Norhg
08-20-05, 11:12 AM Questions, which diety does the cleric follow?
Are the other characters 'religious'?
What have the Kobolds done as of yet?
Are the Kobolds evil?
Have they done anything evil to the players or anyone else?
How do they know that, if, kobolds are evil?

As of now, no... I don't think an alignment change is in order.
However, I would like into the reasonings behind why the characters do what they do. Is it because they want to genocide the Kobolds, because they think it is their duty to slay the kobolds or because they are afraid that they will be backstabbed by the kobolds?

'Inflict on others what they inflict on you'. If there is a substantial risk that they will actually be attacked by the kobolds I could understand why the would want to kill them.
Raytow
08-20-05, 11:21 AM Metagaming issues so far, experience and more loot, with the excuse of kobolds being primary LE creatures(as indicated in MM) the cleric follows Herinoeus(sp.), monk follows St. Cuthbert, barbarian Kord iirc, and the mage Vecna. So far the kobolds aren't responsible for anything at all, in any case the goblins(which are at war with kobolds) are the ones that are harrasing a nearby town, also the barb might get away with the aligment change because he follows the cleric orders blindly, is that reason good enough or he should be changing aligment as well?
Solik
08-20-05, 12:36 PM First off, they should not get more experience. By using diplomacy and other methods to successfully befriend said kobolds, they have passed the challenge posed by those kobolds and should have already received an appropriate experience reward (in fact, I thought the module said this explicitly). Thus, when they kill the kobolds, they get no exp -- and if their prime motivation is getting exp, then they should receive exp penalties (especially the Good-aligned players).

Now, if they're all D&D newbies too, you may want to just explain this verbally instead of penalizing them the first time. It can take awhile to get off the "video game mode" that many new players come in with. However, if you think they're going to be doing a lot of metagaming, and will only relent because you tell them they'll get nothing -- I'd suggest following my advice in the last paragraph here. Some players have to learn through disaster.

Note that if your barbarian is stupid (low int AND wis) and believes that the cleric is holy / always in the right, then he actually may be RP'ing correctly. This is doubtful, however, since they follow different gods. I'd suspect the barbarian's player trusts the cleric's player moreso than any reasonable situation in-game.

Also, I do believe that all of the good loot that the kobolds have are given to the players as rewards for helping them. So, it might be a good lesson for your players to go on a killing spree, and end up with no experience and a bunch of tiny spears. In addition, if I were you, I'd try my hardest to kill the players. There's a lot of kobolds in that region. If you surround them and succeed on a Hypnotise with the sorceress, you'll kill at least some of them, if not all of them. If they brought back the white dragon wyrmling, you could throw it into the battle, too. They wouldn't have a chance beating it along with the sorceress and a bunch of kobolds.
Raytow
08-20-05, 12:42 PM The thing is they don't know that they can gain XP with diplomacy, should i tell them?
Two players of the group(monk and cleric) are hardly newbies, afaik both had epic characters a few years ago, the other two are newbies like me.
Solik
08-20-05, 12:57 PM You said that the players are "helping" the kobolds, implying that they've already spoken with Meepo and the sorceress. In that case, they probably should have already received the experience reward. What you might want to do is give them the exp reward as soon as they finish their current "mission" -- for instance, if they're currently bringing back the wyrmling, then give them the experience for bringing it back. Tell them the experience is "quest experience and experience for passing the kobold challenge" or something.
NinjaE
08-20-05, 01:08 PM ...barb might get away with the aligment change because he follows the cleric orders blindly, is that reason good enough or he should be changing aligment as well?
Whilst the other members of the party would take a sight hit towards CE, the barbarian, if he uses that excuse, might be able to get away with a shift towards LN.
ShadowDragon8685
08-20-05, 01:26 PM It's not only Evil, it's Chaotic.

That Monk should probably go to NE for this, and lose his Monk abilities. The Cleric is certainly going to Fall. I agree, if the Barb is dumb as a rock and just follows the Cleric's orders, he should get off with going TN.

Betraying and killing an entire settlement is not a single, or a minor act. Give them no EXP for their acts of genocide. Give them lots and lots of small spears.

Also, you should be wary about allowing players of differing alignments in the party. At the least, I'd suggest you lose the LE Mage. Most new DMs are either wise enough to institute a "no Evil characters" rule on their first game (I was stricter; no non-Good characters,) or they've learned the lesson by the second game.
tharivol266
08-20-05, 09:48 PM i say i just make a four collom chart and have a row for each character and have the coloms be law/good/evil/chaos and just put checks for whenever they do something that could effect alignment change and multiple for big things. this act though is not worthy of a check. its too small at least by my book. id say if they did this again itd be a check and every other one of this caliber after. or u could just have half checks as one of the things on ur chart
High Octane
08-20-05, 10:54 PM Its an evil act, but it alone is not enough for an alignment change. However you should warn the good guys that it is pretty far from their alignments and if they do stuff like this they will be on the fast track to evil. (Not neutral, EVIL)

You're learning, and so are they. Dont be too hard on them, or yourself, but be willing to lay down the law if a player starts pushing your boundries. And always tell them why.
Ekranoplan
08-20-05, 11:05 PM It's not only Evil, it's Chaotic.

That Monk should probably go to NE for this, and lose his Monk abilities. The Cleric is certainly going to Fall. I agree, if the Barb is dumb as a rock and just follows the Cleric's orders, he should get off with going TN.

Just keep in mind, one action like this should never shift a player. It should take atleast a couple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raytow 08-20-05, 10:29 AM	Greetings, I started DMing D&D a month ago(3.5), right now i'm with the Sunless Citadel module, and the PCs(a NE mage, CG barb, LN monk, and NG clr) are helping the kobolds right now, the problem is they are going to kill all the kobolds, while pretending to help them, the excuse is "that kobolds are evil creatures" don't know if the monk and cleric should get an aligment change if they finally kill the kobolds, should the change(if any) be immediate, or should i take note?
Discordia 08-20-05, 10:39 AM	Killing the kobolds in that manner is definitely an evil act, especially when perpetrated by a good character. However, it's not necessary to shift their alignments after the first evil act. Be sure to keep track of their actions, and if they're consistently doing things like this, then you should change their alignment. In the meantime, you may wish to assign some XP penalties for the good characters, as they're really not role-playing their characters properly.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-20-05, 10:46 AM	Good is not aloud to kill evil just because they are evil. And just to mess with them, make some of the kobolds nuetral. You can do it, it may be a published adventure but you are allowed to change whatever you like Betrayal is evil. If the group of kobolds include children(I do not know because I do not have the adventure) and eggs, they cannot kill those without an alingment change down. Edit: Why wouldn't the barbarian get and alignment change?
ramzafft1 08-20-05, 10:57 AM	But the mage probably wouldn't change from doing that, since he is evil... Is that maybe a typo? And if it isn't, casually remind the evil player that the "good" guys could easily turn on him at any moment. That culd make the evil player more suspicious... which, in my experience, can lead to better roleplaying... or some player killing, depending on the player.
Norhg 08-20-05, 11:12 AM	Questions, which diety does the cleric follow? Are the other characters 'religious'? What have the Kobolds done as of yet? Are the Kobolds evil? Have they done anything evil to the players or anyone else? How do they know that, if, kobolds are evil? As of now, no... I don't think an alignment change is in order. However, I would like into the reasonings behind why the characters do what they do. Is it because they want to genocide the Kobolds, because they think it is their duty to slay the kobolds or because they are afraid that they will be backstabbed by the kobolds? 'Inflict on others what they inflict on you'. If there is a substantial risk that they will actually be attacked by the kobolds I could understand why the would want to kill them.
Raytow 08-20-05, 11:21 AM	Metagaming issues so far, experience and more loot, with the excuse of kobolds being primary LE creatures(as indicated in MM) the cleric follows Herinoeus(sp.), monk follows St. Cuthbert, barbarian Kord iirc, and the mage Vecna. So far the kobolds aren't responsible for anything at all, in any case the goblins(which are at war with kobolds) are the ones that are harrasing a nearby town, also the barb might get away with the aligment change because he follows the cleric orders blindly, is that reason good enough or he should be changing aligment as well?
Solik 08-20-05, 12:36 PM	First off, they should not get more experience. By using diplomacy and other methods to successfully befriend said kobolds, they have passed the challenge posed by those kobolds and should have already received an appropriate experience reward (in fact, I thought the module said this explicitly). Thus, when they kill the kobolds, they get no exp -- and if their prime motivation is getting exp, then they should receive exp penalties (especially the Good-aligned players). Now, if they're all D&D newbies too, you may want to just explain this verbally instead of penalizing them the first time. It can take awhile to get off the "video game mode" that many new players come in with. However, if you think they're going to be doing a lot of metagaming, and will only relent because you tell them they'll get nothing -- I'd suggest following my advice in the last paragraph here. Some players have to learn through disaster. Note that if your barbarian is stupid (low int AND wis) and believes that the cleric is holy / always in the right, then he actually may be RP'ing correctly. This is doubtful, however, since they follow different gods. I'd suspect the barbarian's player trusts the cleric's player moreso than any reasonable situation in-game. Also, I do believe that all of the good loot that the kobolds have are given to the players as rewards for helping them. So, it might be a good lesson for your players to go on a killing spree, and end up with no experience and a bunch of tiny spears. In addition, if I were you, I'd try my hardest to kill the players. There's a lot of kobolds in that region. If you surround them and succeed on a Hypnotise with the sorceress, you'll kill at least some of them, if not all of them. If they brought back the white dragon wyrmling, you could throw it into the battle, too. They wouldn't have a chance beating it along with the sorceress and a bunch of kobolds.
Raytow 08-20-05, 12:42 PM	The thing is they don't know that they can gain XP with diplomacy, should i tell them? Two players of the group(monk and cleric) are hardly newbies, afaik both had epic characters a few years ago, the other two are newbies like me.
Solik 08-20-05, 12:57 PM	You said that the players are "helping" the kobolds, implying that they've already spoken with Meepo and the sorceress. In that case, they probably should have already received the experience reward. What you might want to do is give them the exp reward as soon as they finish their current "mission" -- for instance, if they're currently bringing back the wyrmling, then give them the experience for bringing it back. Tell them the experience is "quest experience and experience for passing the kobold challenge" or something.
NinjaE 08-20-05, 01:08 PM	...barb might get away with the aligment change because he follows the cleric orders blindly, is that reason good enough or he should be changing aligment as well? Whilst the other members of the party would take a sight hit towards CE, the barbarian, if he uses that excuse, might be able to get away with a shift towards LN.
ShadowDragon8685 08-20-05, 01:26 PM	It's not only Evil, it's Chaotic. That Monk should probably go to NE for this, and lose his Monk abilities. The Cleric is certainly going to Fall. I agree, if the Barb is dumb as a rock and just follows the Cleric's orders, he should get off with going TN. Betraying and killing an entire settlement is not a single, or a minor act. Give them no EXP for their acts of genocide. Give them lots and lots of small spears. Also, you should be wary about allowing players of differing alignments in the party. At the least, I'd suggest you lose the LE Mage. Most new DMs are either wise enough to institute a "no Evil characters" rule on their first game (I was stricter; no non-Good characters,) or they've learned the lesson by the second game.
tharivol266 08-20-05, 09:48 PM	i say i just make a four collom chart and have a row for each character and have the coloms be law/good/evil/chaos and just put checks for whenever they do something that could effect alignment change and multiple for big things. this act though is not worthy of a check. its too small at least by my book. id say if they did this again itd be a check and every other one of this caliber after. or u could just have half checks as one of the things on ur chart
High Octane 08-20-05, 10:54 PM	Its an evil act, but it alone is not enough for an alignment change. However you should warn the good guys that it is pretty far from their alignments and if they do stuff like this they will be on the fast track to evil. (Not neutral, EVIL) You're learning, and so are they. Dont be too hard on them, or yourself, but be willing to lay down the law if a player starts pushing your boundries. And always tell them why.
Ekranoplan 08-20-05, 11:05 PM	It's not only Evil, it's Chaotic. That Monk should probably go to NE for this, and lose his Monk abilities. The Cleric is certainly going to Fall. I agree, if the Barb is dumb as a rock and just follows the Cleric's orders, he should get off with going TN. Just keep in mind, one action like this should never shift a player. It should take atleast a couple.