Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rhogan josh 01-18-06, 02:26 PM	Hallo, Me and the lads are working on getting a party sorted out with one half-orc, a grey orc, a halfling rogue and a human fighter. As DM, I think it's fairly evident that the scene has been set for some serious fraud, larceny, and high-road outlaw action. The human, however, wants to be lawful good. Alignment has never played much of a role in our campaigns, being something we've traditionally pretty much ignored in general, but I found it completely unrealistic to have a LG fighter in the midst of a shadowy band of semi-thugs. I've raised it with the player and told him to try chaotic good or even neutral good if need be, but I seems to have spoken a bit too strongly and his feelings are a bit bruised. He still wants to play a lawful good character, although I've convinced him to opt for chaotic/neutral good with LG leanings. I was tempted to say, ok, start off neutral good and if you play him lawfully good enough, I'll let you write LG on yer character sheet, but that'd completely interfere with what I've been planning for the entire campaign! What's a DM to do? :confused:
Sigurd van Norhusen 01-18-06, 02:31 PM	First of all, lean back, and let the game start. You can react then. Forward-thinking is okay, but you cannot expect us to prop forth answers without you even having one test run with this party (even though I know there soon will be lots of responses who do exactly this). The most important thing is that the player knows that his character will stick out and that - should he interfer too much with the campaign and the other characters - he will be sorted out one way or the other (I'd say it's most likely that the other characters might decide to do something to force him to retire, although they could drag them down to their level as well). The gist is: don't cut this off before you have seen what will happen.
Eightbitmage 01-18-06, 02:31 PM	You should explain to him that you and the other players want to run a more out for one self campaign than a help the innocent campaign. It is your game and if you don't want lawful good, you can say no lawful good. You could also tell him that maybe in the future you might run a game where a LG character would fit in well.
Gedrin 01-18-06, 02:32 PM	Generally, I avoid this problem by telling the players the kind of campaign that will be run, in general, and requiring them to make characters that will fit in the campaign. If I were to run a game filled with thievery and mayhem, I'd tell the players just that, "I'm running a roguish game where there may well be opportunity for theivery and mayhem." Anyone who brought me an LG character would be informed that they're going against the flow of the campaign. Of course, I don't have players that would do that. In the end, you decide the general scope and theme of your campaign. People can either choose to play within that scope and theme or not. If not, they have to find another campaign.
Lord Ian Stark 01-18-06, 02:48 PM	This is simple. Ask the LG fighter why he travels with a bunch of bandits and cutpurses? If he stares at you blankly then show him what alignments he can be. Any good aligned is kinda stretching it unless the good aligned character thinks he has no other choice but to travel with these POS's.
rhogan josh 01-18-06, 03:04 PM	Thanks Gedrin! I've used your approach in order to bring the players into line and have hereby ruled that seeing the type of campaign it's gonna be, no lawful alignements will be allowed. Sorted. :D
Milandros 01-18-06, 03:35 PM	Personally, I think it's the good part rather than the lawful part that needs to be looked at if the game is going to be thuggery and thievery. People constantly make the mistake of confusing Law (method, discipline, the order of things) with law (social conventions generally agreed by a populace or imposed apon them). Being Lawful may give a character a tendancy to follow a code of conduct such as a legal code, but he could follow any other code he wished. A disciplined, capable, enormously organised assassin would be Lawful Evil - even though he broke the law of the land constantly and consistantly.
rhogan josh 01-18-06, 03:51 PM	Interesting point of view Milandros. Here's what my PHB says about law and chaos: LAW AND CHAOS Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. .Law. implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close- mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. .Chaos. implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. People who are neutral with respect to law and chaos have a normal respect for authority and feel neither a compulsion to obey nor to rebel. They are honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others. Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality with respect to law and chaos is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks. Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic. From that description I would say that action taken by dm in this situation is spot on. But interesting to check out the different forms of law/chaos.
Leukrythus 01-18-06, 09:14 PM	Me and the lads are working on getting a party sorted out with one half-orc, a grey orc, a halfling rogue and a human fighter. As DM, I think it's fairly evident that the scene has been set for some serious fraud, larceny, and high-road outlaw action. The human, however, wants to be lawful good. What whould a lawful good human be doing with a pair of orcs and a rogue? What will keep the party together? Sounds to me like the LG human needs a new character concept.
Always-Late 01-18-06, 09:17 PM	Stop thinking about the guy like a "LG human" and more like a "guy who happens to support goodness and laws." He can just go along with them, but try and steer them back on the LG track or just throw out disapproving comments here and there.
Rez 01-18-06, 09:40 PM	Well..if he wants to play 'Lawful' why not see if he'll play Lawful Evil :) Would fit a lot better :P Or just see if he'll come up with another char idea...
danielinthewolvesden 01-18-06, 09:58 PM	First of all, lean back, and let the game start.. Just the opposite. Talk to the players first. And set out ground rules. Is PKing OK? Inner-party theft? Treachery? In a normal campaign- no. Not that yours can't have those things- as long as everyone is on the same page. And, of course- the half-orc, halfling rogue and even the grey-orc could all be LG. In fact, that's as likely a choice as any. However, you seem to want a Evil campaign- and that's fine too, with an experienced DM and mature players. Assuming you have both- enjoy! If so, then no, the fighter should NOT be LG. I'd say CG, maybe.
Bardic Knowledge 01-18-06, 10:13 PM	i had encountered this problem when i started out. it may just depend on the character but i had the one LG player play along with the bandit PCs as an "undercover agent" from his kingdom. my plan worked just as easily as i had planned it. i made the LG do things with the group such as killing and fun looting. he had so much fun he turned evil. this could also work another way in you having him kill things to keep his undercoverness and telling him he is now evil after a few acts. i dont adivse the second one, but its entirly up to you man
Steel91101 01-19-06, 03:08 AM	There may be some confusion here. I agree with Milandros -- the problem isn't with the player wanting a Lawful character, but that he wanted a Good Character, with a group composed of Evil characters. No Good-aligned character is going to be doing any "serious fraud, larceny, and high-road outlaw action" regardless of whether they are Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Chaotic Good unless there is a demonstrable ultimate Good that is being served (see Robin Hood, for example). Otherwise, the blokes doing the "serious fraud, larceny, and high-road outlaw action" are Evil-aligned, either Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, or Chaotic Evil. (this is because the actions they are engaged in are evil actions) And you CAN be Lawful-Evil - see the description in your PH, page 105 (on the right). In this context, being "Lawful" means something very different than "obeying the rules of the land." Check it out.