Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hellfirewyrm 11-02-04, 01:35 PM	Anyone have a test or something they give to their players so that they play an alignment closer to what they are good at? I am going to be running a campaign where the players start at neutral and after the first 20 or so encounters, the character's alignment changes to fit with how they would be playing. (Their xp would be awarded after this time, and they would not have earned their classes. It would be an early pt in the game.) Ex: they meet a dying man and his sack is filled with gold. They can try to help him, or leave him, take his money, etc. If they help him, he offers them x(gp), which they can accept or turn down. It was an idea given by one of the players and so I'm trying to work with it.
OmiKapSi 11-02-04, 02:10 PM	You might consider setting up a scoring system similar to PH. Everyone starts out at 7 (neutral), and depending on their actions moves toward basic of 0, I mean lawful, and acidic, errr, chaotic. At 14 they are chaotic. Now, you'd need to define ranges in this, I'd say that anyone from 5 to 10 is considered neutral, with anyone outside of that range being chaotic or lawful. Similar deal for good and evil. Of course, it would be important to make notes as you build the scenarios as to what response corresponds to that specific alignment. In addition, it would probably be helpful if you discussed the meaning of alignments with your players. What is more important? Good intentions or Good actions? Which carries more weight for determining alignment? I'm not going to state an opinion, since this thread is not an alignment debate thread, (there are way too many of those out there). Oh, and there are going to be a people who will post here telling you to remove alignment entirely. You might want to edit your thread to deal with that. Or you might want to see how many votes there are for no alignment. Just a word of warning, they will crop up.
Board_Rider 11-02-04, 02:33 PM	Instead on relying on the Neutral, Lawful or Chaotic axiom you could just say if they are good or evil. Alternatively, you could do the opposite. I've seen it done with no alignments at all because they really only are only effective vs. spells and whatnot. I don't play it that way but it worked for them.
hellfirewyrm 11-02-04, 09:39 PM	You might consider setting up a scoring system similar to PH. Everyone starts out at 7 (neutral), and depending on their actions moves toward basic of 0, I mean lawful, and acidic, errr, chaotic. At 14 they are chaotic. Now, you'd need to define ranges in this, I'd say that anyone from 5 to 10 is considered neutral, with anyone outside of that range being chaotic or lawful. Similar deal for good and evil. Now, ok, I would use the acidic/basic (I'll call it pH) way. But, what kinds of encounters etc would be good to use for lots of different deciding factors to get them to the right alignments.
ThatDarnCat 11-03-04, 02:35 AM	Anyone have a test or something they give to their players so that they play an alignment closer to what they are good at? I am going to be running a campaign where the players start at neutral and after the first 20 or so encounters, the character's alignment changes to fit with how they would be playing. (Their xp would be awarded after this time, and they would not have earned their classes. It would be an early pt in the game.)T$R did something like that in 2E with several 0lvl adventures where the players start out as nobodies with 4 HPs each and no class. The actions of the players are noted and alignment and class are given out at the end of the adventure. Extremely lame, since there were only 5 or 6 aspects of play used, and none of them based on RP.
hellfirewyrm 11-03-04, 01:44 PM	I am more thinking of a way for the players to play the alignment they play their guy as. One of my last players played a CG human ninja that stole from the poor and beat up the rich. He was truly playing it evil. I want to have a starting point where the player plays the guy he wants, but his alignment is determined on what he does in the game. Near Fable type thing, but at low level so they can choose classes after that.
Nyvinyd 11-03-04, 01:55 PM	I use a simple 2 part question to determine alignment... Answer this question from your character's point of view: One of your close friends was arrested for killing an innocent man. You know the man was innocent, and you know your friend did not regret the action. You have the capability to spring him from jail, where he will otherwise be executed. Do you spring him? After an aye or nay, followup with: What is your reasoning, and how do you feel about it?
Krelios 11-03-04, 02:04 PM	Wizard's has an alignment test here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b
LordofIllusions 11-03-04, 03:02 PM	I was just about to tell him about that online test. ~~~
hellfirewyrm 11-03-04, 10:13 PM	Sweet, I'll use the test. Thanks.
Callista 11-04-04, 12:43 AM	Note that not playing your own alignment is fun too, though it's harder. And playing Evil, unless that's your real life alignment, is way harder than any other alignmentand shouldn't be attempted until you have a really good handle on RP. I know I'm not gonna try it for a while yet, and I've had going on 2 years experience now.
CrippleMrOnion 11-04-04, 12:40 PM	From my understanding, the main goal of alignment for the DM to be able to estimate player behavior. This is where so many problems develop on both sides, from DMs telling players "Your character wouldn't do that" do players acting like idiots due to their misconception of alignment. For that reason, I've altered the concept of alignment. I still use the 9 tier system (L, N, C/G, N, E), but I don't follow it nearly as strictly as many DMs except when Paladins are concerned. I now have my players take the Keirsey Temperment Sorter (use google to search for it), which identifies in more detail personality. It details introversion vs. extroversion, intuition (internal clues) vs. sensing (external clues), Thinking (logic) vs. Feeling (whim), and Judgement (planning) vs. perception (freedom of options). The combination of these results gives 16 different and very distinct personaliy options that will help the DM predict player behavior. I never think that a pre-made label should bind a player or character in their options, but players MUST recognize that, to have any form of planning, a DM must have some idea of what they'll do. That doesn't mean the players can't or shouldn't surprise the DM, it just means that some planning is better than none.
TommyBlack 11-04-04, 01:04 PM	Neverwinter nights has a good system for doing this sort of thing. There's a 100-point system, and two dimensions... 0-33 is evil, 34-66 is neutral, 67-100 is good, and then 0-33 is chaotic, 34-66 is neutral, 67-100 is lawful. Then you just figure out how many points just about any action is worth. You could even keep using the system throughout the game to, say, figure out how far a paladin is slipping. As for good challenges that would make use of this, first you need to figure out what metaphysics of alignment you're working under. Ask yourself questions like "Is stealing evil or chaotic?" Then you can assign points depending on severity... shoplifting might only be a -1 shift towards chaotic, but telling your commanding officer to bugger off would be more severe. Killing an innocent townsperson might be as much as -15 towards evil. Kind of arbitrary, but pretty easy to work with.
Gamebird 11-04-04, 01:12 PM	Here are some low level adventures that focus strongly on determining alignment. I was planning on figuring out how to submit these for publishing somewhere, but I hadn't gotten around to it. You are welcome to incorporate them into your game, but don't reprint/publish them anywhere else. First Level Adventures First level characters are very fragile and inexperienced in the game world. Thus, many of the encounters don’t have a lot of combat in them, or if there is combat it’s up to the PCs to decide whether to take the risk. These are excellent opportunities to set the standard for how your game world works. Are crimes punished? Do monsters prowl the roads? Is the landscape dotted with farms or covered by wilderness? This is the time to lay the groundwork for later adventures. It’s very useful for the DM to establish five or six NPCs with different functions who can introduce adventure leads later down the line. A deer! While moving along the road, the PCs see a small buck deer grazing at the edge of the woods, easily within bowshot. If there are laws against poaching in your world, you can explain them. Even if there are, the group might choose to disregard them if they think they can get away with it. Tip: Whenever the PCs are moving along roads, give them a d4-1 encounters per day with something they could eat: rabbits, squirrels, game birds, a turtle or snake crossing the road, etc. The PCs should get a d3 rounds of attacks before the animal “gets away” (though in the case of turtles or other slow-moving animals, this would not apply). If the PCs choose to chase the game, have the animal run for several rounds and then Hide. Excessive searching around in the bushes might cause a roll on an encounter chart for light woodlands. Taking a pig to market The PCs are charged with taking an old boar pig to market for slaughter. They might be asked to do this by a family member, a friend, their mentor or a temple member who owns the farm the pig is on. The pig is ornery and large, weighing 500 lbs. It can’t be put into a wagon or drug behind a horse. It must make it market on its feet. If it is killed, it will sell for 50% of what it will get otherwise. Getting the pig to market will require one Handle Animal roll per hour, DC 20. All the other players may assist, rolling against DC 10. A success gives the primary character a +2 to their roll. If the Handle Animal roll fails, the trip is delayed an hour until another roll can be tried. It will take three successful rolls to get to market. If anyone rolls a 1, the boar attacks them once with its tusks. If they attack it in return, it runs off the road and must be chased down. If attacked, all further Handle Animal rolls are at DC 25. Anything exciting that happens while going down the road will require another Handle Animal check, with the DC from 10 to 20 depending on how likely the encounter is to bother the irascible pig. Traveling to a tournament A young nobleman approaches the PCs and asks if they will accompany him to a tournament 3-5 days away. He is afraid of traveling alone and offers to pay the PCs traveling expenses. Along the way, he tells the PCs stories and tales, possibly relating other adventure leads. Finding a wild cow While moving along the road, the PCs see a cow grazing at the edge of the woods, well outside of any field. It acts somewhat feral and moves away if the PCs approach within 120 feet of it. If they catch the cow, they will see that it has a brand/mark that shows it belongs to the herds of a man in the next county. Since it has strayed so far, even lawful characters won’t be penalized for claiming it as their own. A paladin, though, would feel bound to return it to its rightful owner. The beggar cohort A beggar decides that the PCs are young, inexperienced and rich – easy marks. First the beggar will ply the PCs for alms and meals. Later they will ask for a recommendation to a job. They will bring the PCs news the beggar imagines might be useful to the PC, in exchange for money. They might offer to hold their horse, shine their shoes, take their laundry to the tailor or run errands. Even if the PCs refuse the beggar, the character will continue to target them for a year, as long as it seems they have money. The beggar might be very useful to the PCs, though the person won’t adventure with them or do anything strenuous or tedious. If the PCs lavish money on the person, they will spend it on new clothes, better food, gifts to similarly needy friends (who might also pester the PCs), etc. Eventually they might parlay the cash into getting a respectable job, like assistant baker or groom at the hostelry. Tip: At higher levels, the beggar can be attracted as a cohort and will be willing to adventure with the party if they have been treated well previously. Collecting on a debt A man approaches the PCs and asks them if they are interested in helping him collect a large gambling debt from someone in the next village. The man has a script acknowledging the debt and signed by the debtor, but the man has been barred from entering the other village due to a conviction for being a cutpurse. He offers the PCs 10-50% of the value of the debt for their services. If one of the PCs is a member of the thief’s guild, he will call upon them to do this as their duty. He can give them excellent directions to where the debtor lives and is comfortable with you confiscating tools, valuables, livestock, etc. if the man can not pay in cash as agreed. Alternatively, he may try to sell the script to the PCs for 50-90% of the value of the note, leaving the PCs to decide how to collect it themselves. Tip: The DM can make this scenario simple or complicated, depending on how you run the debtor. If the man sells the PCs the note, then it’s possible there’s no debtor at all and when they come back to find the man, he’ll be gone. If the debtor is there, he might be poor and have made an unwise bet and is now unable to pay off. Or maybe he’s a wealthy merchant with a reputation for gambling, but simply refuses to honor the note and claims it’s a forgery. Dumb and Dumber A pair of not-so-bright villagers in their late 20s approach the PCs and ask a series of unusual questions: “Why are you wearing armor?” “Why are you carrying a sword?” “Are you a soldier?” “Have you ever killed anyone?” “Do you mean to kill someone with that sword?” “Is it sharp?” “Did you ever learn anything from [insert name of spell-casting PC’s mentor]?” “Can you show us magic?” “Why don’t you have a normal job?” The PCs can escape them easily enough, but the DM should have this pair reappear after the PCs have completed a mission or adventure. Then the players can answer questions about what they did and how they won. Tip: Have these two people as recurring background characters. When the PCs are higher level, they’ll still have questions: “Why does your sword glow?” “Is it magic?” “What do you have that crow on your shoulder for? Are you going to cook it tonight?” The broken cartwheel While traveling down the road, the PCs come across a family stranded on the way to market. A cartwheel broke. There is a man, his wife, their 4 year old son, 8 year old daughter and 15 year old daughter. A plow horse that was pulling the cart has been unhitched and is tied to a nearby tree. The adults entreat the PCs to help. A Mending spell, if a player happens to have it memorized, will fix the entire problem. Otherwise the family needs a new cartwheel from town. The man will send his wife and eldest daughter to buy one, while he guards the horse, the cart full of their crops and watches the two younger children. He asks the PCs to help him move the cart off the road and hide it behind a hedge. If the PCs help, the family will bless them and tell them where they live, offering free meal and lodging anytime the PCs happen to be up that way. If the PCs do not, the farmer will offer to pay them up to a gold piece, or let the PCs take their pick of the vegetables in the cart. If the PCs rob them, the family won’t resist. They don’t have much, though the plow horse is valuable. It will also be uncooperative about being led away by a stranger. Tip: Have the family appear later in the market or town. If the PCs helped them freely, have the family greet them warmly, smile and be happy to see them. If the PCs charged them money, the family will be courteous. If they robbed them, the family will shun them and act fearful. Other NPCs will hear of what happens in any case – this is how the PCs get a reputation. Wild animal attack A wild animal or CR 1 monster attacks and mauls or kills a person. The local noble puts a bounty on it. Should the PCs choose to follow it into the woods, they will need to track it. If tracking fails, they will wander into a colony of forest folk (nixies, sprites, faeries, etc.) who know where the creature lairs. They will lead the PCs there if the players promise to repay them with an item they specify (a fine mirror, a glass prism or a good quality steer hide). If the PCs welch on their promise, the fey will steal small livestock from local farmers and curdle their milk. The farmers will blame the PCs. Way station menace A way station has been taken over by a dangerous plant (CR 1) that sprouted there while no one was using the place. The way station might be a fortified hut used by shepherds in distant fields or it might be a traveler’s rest stop along the road. The local lord has offered a reward to whoever cleans it out. Optionally, the PCs could find this menace in the rest area they plan to sleep at. Tip: This scenario can be revised for higher level adventurers by simply changing the difficulty of the monster. Robbing a merchant A man in soft leather, smelling of alcohol, helps himself to a seat with the PCs at a tavern. He blurts out how he wants their help in robbing a merchant. The merchant, he says, is wealthy from having just fleeced the good people of the town, charging them twice the rates he was charging in the last place he went and three times what he bought the goods for. The man impugns the merchant’s race (or family, if he judges that will go over better with the PCs), religion and rapaciousness. The man knows the merchant is heading back to the next county the very next day, going alone along the Forest Lane. He proposes the PCs come with him to stage an ambush and relieve the man of his ill-gotten gains. If the PCs accept, roll a d10. On a 1-2, the man becomes too drunk or otherwise changes his mind. He doesn’t show up where he’s supposed to. On a 3-5, he has also gained the service of d4 other thugs (fighters and rogues), which will reduce the take and make it difficult if the PCs plan to foil the banditry. On a 6-9, he shows up as expected and tries to carry out the robbery. On a 10, some good citizen overheard the plot and the PCs get arrested. In this last case, all they can really charge them with is scheming, but they get a bad reputation for being involved. If the PCs refuse, roll a d10. On a 1-4, the man becomes too drunk or otherwise changes his mind. No robbery occurs. On a 5-6, he finds a d4 other thugs (fighters and rogues) who want to help him. On a 7-9, he tries to carry the ambush off alone, which is likely to fail. On a 10, some good citizen overheard the plot and he gets arrested. In this last case, all they can really charge him with is scheming and he is released a day later after the merchant has left. The PCs should have the opportunity to turn the man in to the authorities themselves, though as noted above this doesn’t result in much of a penalty. A better course would be to inform the merchant, who will then try to hire them to accompany him, offering to pay traveling expenses. Merchant guards A merchant approaches the PCs and tries to hire them as guards. He offers a reasonable rate of pay and explains that his route will bring him back to this town in six months. There is a rumor that his previous guards quit over a dispute about their pay. (If this is a continuation of “Robbing a merchant”, then the man above was a previous guard who left the merchant’s employ because they demanded a raise the merchant would not give them.) If the PCs accept, then they face their first adventure soon after leaving town, when they are ambushed by a few of the former guards. The guards are mostly bluster and the PCs and merchant will escape if they simply ignore them and go on. However, the situation can turn lethal quickly if the PCs threaten the guards, cast spells or attack them. Finding a Familiar If one of the PCs is a wizard, their familiar should be the target of this scenario, or at least required by their mentor or the local wizard’s guild to help out. If no PC casts wizard spells, then a local wizard NPC can simply hire the group. In order to cast Find Familiar, the wizard must have the familiar ready to hand. Many of the familiars are normally wild animals. The PCs are charged with capturing a creature the wizard wants to use, or perhaps capturing several creatures for the wizard to pick from. Even the buying of six cats to pick from could be a short adventure as the PCs must roll Gather Information to find out who is selling cats (they don’t have pet stores in most villages), travel to a farm that has recently had a litter and pick out several kittens to transport back. They might have to ask at several farms or find that the litter was doing badly because of some problem (worms, fleas, disease, dogs, weasels, etc.) The smallest quest A religious PC or wizard is asked to help find a particular herb or item that is part of a higher level spell. Pick something hard to find, but not impossible, like the shed skin of a venomous snake or a mushroom from a fairy ring of mushrooms. The DM should examine the spell he plans to make the component part of so he can answer the inevitable questions about it. Finding the item will require a Wilderness Lore, Search, or Spot roll, DC 25, one roll per day. The rest of the party should be allowed to assist with DC 10 rolls to give the primary searcher a +2 per assisting character. Wandering around in the woods looking for something is a great time for the DM to have the PCs run into monsters and animals off the light woodlands encounter chart. If the PCs stick to lands close to civilization, the CR for such encounters should be no more than 1 or 2. There are many creatures worth mentioning that aren’t on most encounter tables: 3’ centipedes, standard venomous snakes, wasps, clouds of gnats that engulf a character and discomfit them enough to give them a –1 to all rolls for the next hour, poison ivy, the howl of a distant wolf, the answering bark of something big and humanoid, game animals (d6 encounters), non-game animals (d4 encounters: skunks, snakes, porcupines, etc.). The smallest mission A religious PC is charged with the simple task of taking a report from their temple to a larger temple several day’s journey away. The report isn’t terribly important (just an annual or quarterly report on the temple’s business), but it needs to be delivered and this is considered the perfect job for a new member. The temple gives the character money for their own expenses. If the character asks, they can get some money to help defray the other PC’s expenses if they go with. Along the way, the DM should describe a few locales that might be future adventure opportunities. Once arrived at the larger temple, the character should be praised for their devotion, given food and shelter for the night and be sent back the next morning or a day later with a return note of thanks to the smaller temple. The priest of the larger temple might mention a few adventures and quests that will be fodder for future sessions. Tip: Once the players become higher level and have access to mounts, good armor, good weapons and enough cash to easily pay for travel, they might still be asked to ferry messages from time to time. They might also be asked by newer (lower level) members of the clergy to escort them as the NPCs carry out similar missions.
Gamebird 11-04-04, 01:32 PM	The goal here is to run adventures at low level that require a lot of alignment-based decision making. This dovetails nicely with how fragile most 1st level characters are - you can design adventures that don't involve a lot of combat. I find it helpful to think of tasks people would be doing normally in a game world. They'd be farming, hunting, taking livestock and produce to market, etc. Another helpful thing is to think of things in our world that you believe to be evil, unusual or weird. Then model them into the game world: - The characters are hired to go door-to-door and advocate for a political candidate. They know next to nothing about him. They get an hour lecture on his policies and good points from their recruiter and then they're turned loose in the town. Do they go out and promote someone they don't know? Do they elaborate on the man's virtues? - A cleric in the town has had a vision he believes to be from his god, that the god wants living sacrifices. The cleric has begun sacrificing chickens and goats, but has decided that the god might want more exotic fare. He tries to hire the PCs to hunt down and capture wild animals for his altar. Do the PCs accept? Do they think that sacrificing animals (domestic animals raised to be killed anyway) is evil? Do they investigate the orthodoxy of his claim about needing sacrifice? Or is the cleric just desperate to get new members and doing a clerical version of bread and circuses, in bad taste? - A married member of the community approaches one of the PCs and flirts with them. If they are receptive, the person asks them to have sex. Do the PCs think this is acceptable, knowing the society frowns on adultery? - A married member of the community believes their spouse is cheating on them. They hire the PCs to follow their spouse and watch them. How do the PCs react to this? - The characters see someone else being robbed. Do they do anything about it? - The characters see someone else being taxed, fined, or arrested. They know nothing about the situation. Do they interfere, or mind their own business? - A drunk, who happens to be the evil son of the local noble, runs down an old lady after spurring his horse away from the pub. Do the PCs help her? These "adventures" are also great for encouraging role play and having players really think about how their characters will react to complex ethical situations.