Alignment and creature summoning: Celestial vs Fiendish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment and creature summoning: Celestial vs Fiendish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
frostyusa
02-25-06, 10:38 AM Can/Would/Should alignment effect creature summoning when the creature being summoned can either have fiendish or celestial templates. I am specifically refering to Vipergout from pg 230 in the Spell Compendium. The issue I have is that the Sorceror is Chaotic Neutral. IMO, fiendifh vipers would upset the party (overall good aligned), but a celestial creature would be kind of difficult to summon since the PC is being played right down the CN line. Does an arcane spell caster have to "tap" into the appropriate plane to summon a fiendish/celestial creature? Would the powers that be in the celestial realm have any defense against this? Would they care if the party was fighting for overall good?
King-bargh
02-25-06, 10:54 AM IMO Arcane spellcasters are not bound by the "can-cast-spells-of-opposing-alignment"-rule. So yes he/she can summon both god/evil/lawfull creatures as he wish. The outsiders has no "defence" for the summon-monster spell so thats no problem. But I guess a demon migth grumble when forced to aid a good wizard. Not to mention how the Archon would feel being orderd to attack the cleric of Pendor! Perhaps arcanists SHOULD be included in the rule.... :confused:
Cantankerous
02-25-06, 11:14 AM As per the RAW, an LG Arcane caster can use Monster Summoning*7 to summon a Babau if the mood so strikes them. They aren't merely channeling power from a source that has it's own desires as with the Cleric.

The Arcane caster uses raw magical power, just the same as a warrior uses a sword, it is not a force with it's own moral or ethical plan to forward. For the Wizard casting a spell, like for the warrior weilding a sword, it is what they do with the power (or the sword) that matters.

Additionally of course a spell that summons an evil being is an evil act and summoning a chaotic creature is a chaotic action. So a LG Wizard who does this kind of thing alot won't stay either Lawful, or Good, for long.

You have to keep the Law v. Chaos part of the equation in mind as well.

It doesn't matter if it's a Celestial creature for the CN Wizard or a Fiendish one, if it is a Lawful creature then summoning it WILL affect his/her alignment. A single summoning, or even several, will not by itself change that alignment, but it heads them in that direction.

Isshia
Andrew_980
02-25-06, 02:08 PM I always took the reverse to the usual summoning by alignment thing: good character summons evil creature so they can suffer in combat insted of doing that to a good thing.
Vaalingrade Ashland
02-25-06, 03:00 PM There's no reason or rhyme to it. Just ignore it and let them summon what they want.
Purkake
02-25-06, 06:43 PM Also notice that the whole "bringing more evil to the material plane" is not an issue as the creature leaves after the (short) duration and is at all times under your direct control.

You could just as well summon a ball of glowing force with the abilities you need (monsters are just cooler ;))
Cantankerous
02-26-06, 03:10 AM There's no reason or rhyme to it. Just ignore it and let them summon what they want.

Ohhh yeah, sure, a Paladin with some levels in Sorcerer should be allowed to summon demons all day. It fits so perfectly with the character.

Isshia
King-bargh
02-26-06, 03:57 AM Ohhh yeah, sure, a Paladin with some levels in Sorcerer should be allowed to summon demons all day. It fits so perfectly with the character.

Isshia

Ah, but here you are talking about roleplaying rather then game-mechanics. A tricky but important subject, which ,as you said earlier, should be dealt with on an "occasional"(?) basis, rather then by a fixed rule.

That was what you said ,yes? Which makes me wonder why I posted this...eh...darn. :confused:
Purkake
02-26-06, 06:59 AM Roleplay is all in your head. How is summoning celestials to do you bidding any more good that summoning demons to do it? Now you can, as posted before, use it as a form of punishment for the fiends, you call them and have them fight evil foes to redeem for their evil deeds.

Also it isn't even a real demon you summon, if it gets killed during the summoning it just returns to the Abyss and is on its merry way. So as I said before, if it bothers you so much just make it so that you summon a ball of light with the abilities of the chosen creature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
frostyusa 02-25-06, 10:38 AM	Can/Would/Should alignment effect creature summoning when the creature being summoned can either have fiendish or celestial templates. I am specifically refering to Vipergout from pg 230 in the Spell Compendium. The issue I have is that the Sorceror is Chaotic Neutral. IMO, fiendifh vipers would upset the party (overall good aligned), but a celestial creature would be kind of difficult to summon since the PC is being played right down the CN line. Does an arcane spell caster have to "tap" into the appropriate plane to summon a fiendish/celestial creature? Would the powers that be in the celestial realm have any defense against this? Would they care if the party was fighting for overall good?
King-bargh 02-25-06, 10:54 AM	IMO Arcane spellcasters are not bound by the "can-cast-spells-of-opposing-alignment"-rule. So yes he/she can summon both god/evil/lawfull creatures as he wish. The outsiders has no "defence" for the summon-monster spell so thats no problem. But I guess a demon migth grumble when forced to aid a good wizard. Not to mention how the Archon would feel being orderd to attack the cleric of Pendor! Perhaps arcanists SHOULD be included in the rule.... :confused:
Cantankerous 02-25-06, 11:14 AM	As per the RAW, an LG Arcane caster can use Monster Summoning*7 to summon a Babau if the mood so strikes them. They aren't merely channeling power from a source that has it's own desires as with the Cleric. The Arcane caster uses raw magical power, just the same as a warrior uses a sword, it is not a force with it's own moral or ethical plan to forward. For the Wizard casting a spell, like for the warrior weilding a sword, it is what they do with the power (or the sword) that matters. Additionally of course a spell that summons an evil being is an evil act and summoning a chaotic creature is a chaotic action. So a LG Wizard who does this kind of thing alot won't stay either Lawful, or Good, for long. You have to keep the Law v. Chaos part of the equation in mind as well. It doesn't matter if it's a Celestial creature for the CN Wizard or a Fiendish one, if it is a Lawful creature then summoning it WILL affect his/her alignment. A single summoning, or even several, will not by itself change that alignment, but it heads them in that direction. Isshia
Andrew_980 02-25-06, 02:08 PM	I always took the reverse to the usual summoning by alignment thing: good character summons evil creature so they can suffer in combat insted of doing that to a good thing.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-25-06, 03:00 PM	There's no reason or rhyme to it. Just ignore it and let them summon what they want.
Purkake 02-25-06, 06:43 PM	Also notice that the whole "bringing more evil to the material plane" is not an issue as the creature leaves after the (short) duration and is at all times under your direct control. You could just as well summon a ball of glowing force with the abilities you need (monsters are just cooler ;))
Cantankerous 02-26-06, 03:10 AM	There's no reason or rhyme to it. Just ignore it and let them summon what they want. Ohhh yeah, sure, a Paladin with some levels in Sorcerer should be allowed to summon demons all day. It fits so perfectly with the character. Isshia
King-bargh 02-26-06, 03:57 AM	Ohhh yeah, sure, a Paladin with some levels in Sorcerer should be allowed to summon demons all day. It fits so perfectly with the character. Isshia Ah, but here you are talking about roleplaying rather then game-mechanics. A tricky but important subject, which ,as you said earlier, should be dealt with on an "occasional"(?) basis, rather then by a fixed rule. That was what you said ,yes? Which makes me wonder why I posted this...eh...darn. :confused:
Purkake 02-26-06, 06:59 AM	Roleplay is all in your head. How is summoning celestials to do you bidding any more good that summoning demons to do it? Now you can, as posted before, use it as a form of punishment for the fiends, you call them and have them fight evil foes to redeem for their evil deeds. Also it isn't even a real demon you summon, if it gets killed during the summoning it just returns to the Abyss and is on its merry way. So as I said before, if it bothers you so much just make it so that you summon a ball of light with the abilities of the chosen creature.