Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eightbitmage 10-18-04, 03:32 PM	Is it wrong for someone to say, "hey are any of you guys chaotic neutral." or a sign that says "only lawful good need apply." I figure there are spells that can tell you exactly what you are, so I would think that most middle level characters if not lower would know what they are.
Cantankerous 10-18-04, 03:56 PM	The mechanisms in the game are that exact. They would have to be for clarities sake. But in character it certainly should be alot different. Alignments are a complete artificiality. They do not exist except as a game mechanism, so when a spell is cast that reveals alignment there isn't suddenly a blinking neon sign over the head that say "Chaotic Good". There would more likely be a feeling that the persons values go in the direction of what the game defines as chaotic good, or to use a meta-auric scale, that the color of their meta-aura is such and such which means that they have basic values that are such and such, that the game itself defines as Chaotic Good. This is one of the reasons that I'm so glad that D&D 3E did away with alignment languages. They never, ever, made the slightest degree of sense and were even more artificial in make up than alignments themselves. The game is infinitely better off without them. In short then, the spells do not show exact alignments to the characters, but rather they tell the PLAYER what the character is perceiving in a less meta-game fashion. Therefore signs such as "only lawful good need apply" are doubly artificial and ridiculous. Isshia
astute1 10-18-04, 04:06 PM	I think that a sign with those specific words would likely be out-of-character, but with a little thought you can come up with an in-game facsimile to express the same thing: Only Lawful Good need apply The sign on the temple door states that only those devout and pure-hearted followers of the Holy Creed of Heironius will be accepted for this vital mission. Applicants must be willing to follow orders from the Preceptor, and able to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles of Heironius, namely Mercy, Charity, and Obedience Are any of you guys Chaotic Neutral? I'm just looking for some guys like me. You know, guys who don't mind breaking a few rules here and there, who aren't caught up in any legal entanglements. Really, when it comes right down to it, I need people I can trust to myself, rather than to some higher ideals. Neither of these descriptions is quite as specific as the original, so there's a bit of "wiggle room" for alignments. You should note that most of the Detect spells are easily overcome with low level magic, and even they don't give you incredibly specific information.
Eightbitmage 10-19-04, 01:20 PM	"Alignments are a complete artificiality. They do not exist except as a game mechanism, so when a spell is cast that reveals alignment there isn't suddenly a blinking neon sign over the head that say "Chaotic Good". There would more likely be a feeling that the persons values go in the direction of what the game defines as chaotic good, or to use a meta-auric scale, that the color of their meta-aura is such and such which means that they have basic values that are such and such, that the game itself defines as Chaotic Good." Are you sure? From the description of detect evil it seems like there is a slight aura of evil detected. And most other spells say they function like detect evil but with the other alignments. Also the spell is called "detect evil" not detect selfish people that would hurt others to benefit. I mean we always hear about the paladin who detects evil and then smites them, thus enraging the DM. Often people in game define others as evil this way, so why not chaotic, or lawful or good? I guess i just need a more convincing argument than what you give.
Cantankerous 10-19-04, 03:16 PM	Look, it's simple enough. If you play your game video game style, sure, that's the interface, but if you play it role playing game style, which is the supposed genre here, nothing is that absolute. "... a slight aura of evil is detected" "to use a meta-auric scale, that the color of their meta-aura is such and such which means that they have basic values that are such and such, that the game itself defines as Chaotic Good." Where exactly is the sum difference there? I mean other than one feels more artificial than the other, the give the same type of information with the same utility, the only real difference is that one is slightly less desperately twinky than the other. How much more artificial can you get than alignments anyway? Isshia
Derren S. 10-19-04, 04:30 PM	Oh please, don't start with this video game argumentation. In D&D alignment is a defined force as there are spells which can exactly tell which alignment someone is. And alignment isn't relative, it is absolute as every person detects the same alignment on a person no matter which believe he has. In a high magic world there certainly can be restrictions based on alignment, for example a merchant who casts detect law on all of his employees to make sure that they are loyal to him. That has nothing to do with video gaming mentality, this is a logical process in a magical world. Sure, chaotic good might not be called chaotic good, but clerics know of alingment and what they do and can detect them.
zodiki 10-19-04, 04:50 PM	Sure you can use those words if that is the vernacular of the culture. I prefer terms like law-abiding, free-spirited, good-natured, sociopathic etc to the generic terms for alignment in the rules. You could think of it like astrology. Everybody has an astrological sign with certain supposed tendencies. Diplomats needed - Only Libras need apply.
fatal error 10-19-04, 05:01 PM	In a high magic world there certainly can be restrictions based on alignment, for example a merchant who casts detect law on all of his employees to make sure that they are loyal to him. Actually just because they are lawful doesn't mean they are loyal to him, just means they might be very ordered about how they are disloyal to him. And evil won't work either as sometimes evil people make the best sailsmen, but are still completely loyal... :) /leavesbeforethisturnsintoanalignmentdeba te
Eightbitmage 10-19-04, 05:04 PM	I think this might be the bridge needed to get from what i was thinking to what you think cantankerous. "Sure you can use those words if that is the vernacular of the culture. I prefer terms like law-abiding, free-spirited, good-natured, sociopathic etc to the generic terms for alignment in the rules." Just one question, it seems pretty nessisary for your explination, but what is meta-auric? And yes I do tend to run high magic games, so the above example might not be too far off.
Cantankerous 10-19-04, 05:23 PM	Meta-auric im this phrasology would be beyond aura, a sub-layer of the aura, more rarified and thus more exacting. The video-game comment wasn't really directed at you but at the idea. The sum effect is the same, only the terminology and the imagery differs. As I said in my first post, something Derren must have missed, is that "there isn't suddenly a blinking neon sign over the head that says "Chaotic Good" when the spell goes off. The end effect is the same, it reveals the information that the character is, for instance, chaotic good, but it does it in a different way than something as linear as a sign or words. There is no such thing as the alignment. The alignment is simply a term used as a game mechanism to communicate an idea. It's a short hand. But for the character in the game, the term chaotic good has no meaning. The things that make that ideal up have meaning and are understood, but there isn't a cross cultural, cross religious, cross linguistic, cross racial word or series of words that all beings everywhere are going to have in common. They could hold the idea that we as gamers use the words for in common, but they don't have this simplistic multi-everything meta-word to describe it. At least not in my game. See, that's where the video game comment comes in. In the VG enviroment there are the extreme limitations of the system involved, and thus the way the terminology can be used, be we as people transcend the machines idiot limitations. All of this goes to what I've always felt the DM's real job is, which is to present a world vibrant enough to enable the player to "be" his character within that venue. The more artificialities involved the less possible that is. This is simply another way of getting rid of another layer of the artificial feel that makes it harder for the players to immerse themselves in the game world. It doesn't matter how "high or low magic" the game is. This isn't in the least dependant upon the amount of magic present. It is only a way to make the game easier for the player to immerse his/herself in. Isshia
Kenohki 10-19-04, 05:40 PM	I think one of the easiest ways to handle alignment is by largely ignoring it. In my game detect alignment spells do not detect an alignment unless it really has meaning. Casting detect evil will not detect a merchant who cheats his customers, but it will pick up a serial killer. Casting detect alignment only picks up extremes. Players define their own alignment, but I ignore it. I am not interesting in arguing whether torturing someone falls under chaotic neutral or evil. Detection spells will pick up their past actions (and feelings about those actions) unless they have a divine affiliation.
Derren S. 10-20-04, 05:58 AM	The end effect is the same, it reveals the information that the character is, for instance, chaotic good, but it does it in a different way than something as linear as a sign or words. There is no such thing as the alignment. The alignment is simply a term used as a game mechanism to communicate an idea. It's a short hand. But for the character in the game, the term chaotic good has no meaning. The things that make that ideal up have meaning and are understood, but there isn't a cross cultural, cross religious, cross linguistic, cross racial word or series of words that all beings everywhere are going to have in common. They could hold the idea that we as gamers use the words for in common, but they don't have this simplistic multi-everything meta-word to describe it. Alignment is very real in a D&D world. It is not an abstract term because it is detectable and clearly defined. The caster knows that the target is good (certainly, in a world where good and evil is absolute and holy warriors of both alignment exist it is defined what is good.) and that the person is chaotic (which is also defined). So yes, if someone casts detect good, for him a neon sign appears which points at everyone who is good and the caster knows what he can expect from a good person. The caster might say that a person is of pure heart and has a free, rebellious spirit (=CG) or the caster can say that this person is good and chaotic, as those terms are no game mechanical terms. Some deities have it as domain, spells work only on persons of certain alingment and entire planes exist which are focused on one alignment. Alignment is so heavily used in D&D it is unbelievable that there is no word for it. Anyway, the end result is the same. The caster knows what he can generally expect from this person and is free to act on this knowledge. And because every caster from the world from every race and culture detects the same alignment people who can afford to detect alignment often can restrict things to people of a certain alignment as easily as in the real world certain jobs are restricted to persons who have no crime record.
Cantankerous 10-20-04, 06:37 AM	There is very little in this game, if anything, that "It is not an abstract." This is a game. EVERYTHING in and about it is an abstract, if not an abstract of an abstract, possibly to several oreders of magnitude. Sorry Derren, but only in a video game world could I see anything being that completely artless. The information of what the alignment is, again in my opinion, more than enough without having some idiotic cross cultural/cross lingguistic/cross racial/inter planar duex ex machina being a neccesity for the game world. It's like saying that all orcs HAVE TO BE ugly greyish skinned elf haters because that is the sterotype. This game is never more than a springboard, especially where it is vague and I challenge you to show me where it states in any official source that a glowing neon sign appears above the targets head. As I've said, it's your game, do it as YOU like it, but saying that it IS this way is assinine. How do you provide a role playing venue that can be immersive and have something as artless and juvenially linear as glowing neon signs above the head of the person that has the spell cast upon them? Isshia