Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dasneakygit 06-20-05, 04:56 PM	This is not one of those problem player threads or anything like that but it does involve for the most part my group is awesome but I need to ensure I am in the right before I bring down the devine hammer of judgement so to speak. We have a odd group firstly LG dwarf Cleric N human wizard CN deep dwarf Rogue NG Warforged Fighter CG Elven Ranger/ Darkwood stalker CN Thrykreen Fighter/Psi warrior Now they are in a nasty dungeon, it is a infernal prison and they are stopping the prison break basicly (modified world's largest dungeon) Well the Thrykreen (sp) has taken up a very disturbing habit in recent sessions. Defiling the corpses they come across. To the point of feasting on their flesh. Now this has bothered the good party members but they know that the bug is a flesh eater in the repsect of his race so they have been very tolerant of his actions from a rp standpoint here is the problem. Here is the problem, he does not tell me something like I eat her heart to gain her strength, it has been I rend her apart and eat I don't want her coming back after us. So far he has mangled/eaten A wild elf blackgaurd A fiendish dire 2 headed rust monster (yes I am that twisted) A morhg (mangled only) A night hang A theifling assasin My opintion is he is headed down the dark side, which i think he might be doing anyway since for some reason the party elected him to carry all the evil artifacts he has. Once I sat down and thought about how any things he has done I realized just how far out of bounds he was. It kinda snuck up on me. Should I? A. talk to him and give him a final warning? B. Just reach over and mark evil on his sheet? C. Let it go to prevent a pending party explostion (there was recently a scuffle about an unholy dagger, the rogue wanted it the cleric said no way jose) D. do nothing only problem is there might be a party explosion later What do ya think? I am thinking A is best.
Gutcheck Hammerfall 06-20-05, 05:01 PM	Im in a similar debate about evil in my thread above this one called a Moral Dilemma. Feasting on flesh like that seems to be evilish. He is however chaotic neutral meaning he follows his own whims and codes. He isn't attacking good outright or torturing anyone. It is a disturbing habit. Perhaps the players may want him to justify himself in game. If he can't then they may want to disband him. This is a tricky one. To me he seems to be straddling the line of evil and neutral. ---------------- EDIT ------------ This sort of thing tends to happen with immature players also. They just do stupid things which end up ruining the game. Perhaps both some talking to him and in game discussion will help. Nevertheless, he is CN, so if he can justify it in a role-playing setting then he should not be bothered. Just make sure he isn't just being a brat.
The nameles one 06-20-05, 05:05 PM	Thri-Kreen's are humanoid insects, a race completely different from humans, it might normal for them to eat just about anything. I'd say hes CN, but you still might want to talk to him, if this really bothers you or the other players.
dasneakygit 06-20-05, 05:33 PM	Well he has justified it with the other players, while it does gross them out he explains it is the way of his people. Granted when he tells me, it is more sinister. As in his reason is to defile. These guys are all mature players, the 'good' players are worried he is enjoying his work a bit to much if you get my drift, but his people do consume the flesh of sentients so they are handling it with kid gloves for the sake of party unity. My biggest concern comes from the fact that he might be role playing the corupting influence of a bunch of magical artifacts he is carrying. I guess the best thing would be to sit and talk to him about where he is going with his PC, and just to warn him he is treading a dark path that will put him at odds with the party. I know the party is very worried since he is carrying all the evil stuff they have found so far. They are cool with it now but I am afraid that if it continues it could be an explostion waiting to happen. Here is the stuff he is carrying to give you an idea why the party is nervous... A unholy wounding dagger of venom +1 (this is the dagger mentioned before) A Unholy Mighty cleaving Keen Longsword +2 a black cloak of the archmagi possesed by powerful wraith wizard A Darkskull So some potent evil mojo there if you get my drift. There are some other things he tried to do also. He tried to loot the corpse of the night hag while the rest of the party fought off the ettins, funny thing was she had a cursed item that alerted the party to the fact that he was looting otherwise they would not have known about it. (ala he passed me a note to do it) The hag in question had bracers of defenslessness on her and when he picked them up he was compeled to put them on right away, so the party caught he stripping off his armor in the middle of a fight, lucy had so splainen to do if you get my point. I know this might sound bad but I know my players, I doubt he is behaving this way to "be cool".
totoro 06-20-05, 08:31 PM	For the sake of party unity, you might want to focus on what he does to the living, instead of what he does to the dead. We don't desecrate the dead because it is part of our culture, and that often works its way into the alignment paradigm, but it doesn't have to.
snowlynx 06-20-05, 08:37 PM	it has been I rend her apart and eat I don't want her coming back after us. Let me be honest, it feels very neutral. If the creature was already dead, it's not going to feel any pain, and your thri kreen sounds to be multilating them to prevent them from being raised. He methods are a little unorthodox, but if the race eats creatures anyway, it might seem more normal to him. (In a land where people can be brought back to life, or be raised as undead, drastic measures like burning a body to prevent it's ressurection are not entirely unappropriate.) I would talk to him, but not yell at him, just tell him you're worried that his character's actions is causing the group not to work together.
ManinDarkness 06-20-05, 09:24 PM	A vote for neutrality in the action.
Alynn 06-20-05, 09:28 PM	It's for its own survival, however, if he is eating 4 medium humanoids in a few minutes, I'm sure he will be full for awhile... I'm not entirely familiar with the race, but my guess is they don't have bottomless stomachs, so I'm sure there will be a limit to how much he/she/it can eat. but the act itself is neutral, a starving lion that attacks a good person isn't attacking for the malice of it, it is attacking to survive, this thing doesn't eat "normal" food, it eats corpses, it does what it does to survive.
Cadfan 06-20-05, 09:33 PM	Does it honestly matter? Lets say you declare him evil. What does this change? Will the cleric stop hanging out with him? Why? If the cleric was ok with him before the word Evil was on his character sheet (metagame knowledge), he should be ok now, given that the thri-keen's behavior hasn't changed.
dasneakygit 06-21-05, 12:24 PM	Cadfan Does it honestly matter? Yes it does, he is after all carrying alot of evil artifacts, powerful ones at that. The party is also be concerned with their relationships with the celestials (the wardens) in the dungeon. His race is known for eating sentient flesh but are omnivous. It is not a survival issue, although on of the guys he ate, the blackguard was an elf. And elf meat is considered their favorite. It is not uncommon for the cleric to do an alignment scan on just about anyone they meet that tries to get friendly, if he becomes evil sooner or later she will catch him.
Callista 06-21-05, 12:36 PM	Well, I think you should talk to the player. It seems neutral to me, too; but you (as a DM) should know why he's doing this. Is it one of his character's quirks? Is it because he's got all this "evil mojo" in his backpack? Or is it something else entirely? When you know why he's doing what he's doing, you can RP it properly yourself.
Fiery_Overlord 06-21-05, 01:01 PM	Check out Defining Alignment (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448516) I would ask: Does he show compunctions against killing the innocent? Does he lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others? Those are the defining characteristics of a morally neutral character. Is he showing sign that he partakes of hurting, oppressing, and debasing or destroying innocent life? Those are the defining factors of evil. No doubt the Thri-kreens actions are definately alien and creepy, but not harmful and in a strange way pragmatic. Is cutting the head from a vampire, filling it mouth with holy wafers and burning it evil? No, it is just messy. One last question: Does the character display altruism, respect for life, a concern for the dignity of sentient beings and make personal sacrifices to help others? Because those are the defining points of good. Rending sentient things apart after they are dead doesn't show much concern for thier dignity, so it may fall short of good. Now I would point out "Blue Guts" a disease from BoVD from eating foul creatures. (Page 30) It isn't severe but a good way to throw in that eating icky things isn't safe. "Soul Rot" which comes from eating the flesh of an evil outsider is far more serious. The is a reason why somethings are considered "unclean" and they don't have to be moral reason. Now about your good characters, it is well that they are concerned for the dignity of the dead because that is part of being good. P.S. It does sound like you have great players.
Dragonsblood 06-21-05, 01:30 PM	Here is the problem, he does not tell me something like I eat her heart to gain her strength, it has been I rend her apart and eat I don't want her coming back after us. Defiling a corpse so that it doesn't come back to life and attack you hardly seems evil to me. He's not defiling the corpses to be cruel (evil), he's doing it in self/group defence (neutral).
dasneakygit 06-21-05, 01:50 PM	Does he show compunctions against killing the innocent? No none to him it is friend or food Does he lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others? If it is his clutchmates (the party) then yes but for all others then no. An NPC joined the party for a short time and he intentionally left her in peril many times. Does the character display altruism, respect for life, a concern for the dignity of sentient beings and make personal sacrifices to help others? Yet again if you are his clutchmate then he displays those qualities but for anything else then no. And it takes a while for him to warm up to someone, he never warmed up to that npc. When a player died and replaced his character the thri-kreen treated him like dog poo, until he showed him he was a member of the clutch. The warforged grappled the rustmonster to protect the parties equipment while the ranger and the wizard blasted it. Another thing see this party is sneaky with their roleplay hehe he could be role playing the corrupting influence of the items. As a matter of fact when they discovered the robe of the archmagi the wizard said he it will be ok. The cleric was like you are not wearing that around me. The wizard touches the robe and says see it's ok. Hears voices in the robe then suddenly jumps back says ok cleric you win we'll bag it! So they know the robe is more than just a robe if you get my drift
Morka 06-21-05, 02:07 PM	My biggest concern comes from the fact that he might be role playing the corupting influence of a bunch of magical artifacts he is carrying. I guess the best thing would be to sit and talk to him about where he is going with his PC, and just to warn him he is treading a dark path that will put him at odds with the party. Then ask him in private, out of the game. If he is slowly turning evil, the way he eat victims should be more and more gore. He should also "secretly" hold in his hands one of the evil items. If the other players still don't figure what's happen, tell them they feel something strange about the Thri-Kreen. If the dwarven cast Detect Evil on him without the evil items, he should detect a faint, varying evil emanation: the character is not evil to the core yet, but has many evil thoughts. Then the other PCs should try to convince him to give the evil items to someone else; if they are succesfull, the Thri-Kreen is saved. Otherwise, he should becomes an NPC.
Chobemaster 06-21-05, 04:00 PM	Classic CN behavior, IMO...he does what he thinks is in his best interest (preventing raising of foes) regardless of the conventions of others. Nothing evil about it. If he starts hunting intelligent creatures when he doesn't need food, THEN you can start worrying about evil, IMO.
Martimus 06-21-05, 04:59 PM	I also have a question on alignments. I'll have to give you a little backstory so you know how this problem came about. It involves two of my players one is a LG Cleric and the other was a CN Wizard. The guy that plays the wizard is a major problem player as he is always purposely killing off his characters as he feels he has to have the most powerful/strongest character in the party. :mad: During our last session the wizard decided that his character was boring due to the fact the cleric had surpassed him in power so whilst in town he decided to magically destroy a Tavern killing everyone inside it. When the rest of his party found out about this they set out to find him and bring him back to face the law. They eventually track down the wizard and manage to subdue him and take him back to face his crime. Now the Judge is CE (which he has hidden from party via spells and is in chahoots with BBEG) and orders the cleric to cut off the wizards tounge and basically cripple the wizard so he can no longer cast spells. Now understandable the ex player of the wizard was a little upset about this as the punishment was an evil act but because someone of a postion in law gave the order the cleric had to obey. So basically I'm stuck in deciding if the clerics alignment should change because he committed a evil act or if it should stay LG because he was obeying the law of the land. What r your views?
ManinDarkness 06-21-05, 05:07 PM	So basically I'm stuck in deciding if the clerics alignment should change because he committed a evil act or if it should stay LG because he was obeying the law of the land.Not one action should change alignment. IMO, the cleric is doing a LN act, blindly obeying. I'm bothered about the player vs player confrontation, though. You should talk with the wizard player.
FrznFury 06-21-05, 05:52 PM	IMO, being good with a select group is not related to alignment. I'm playing a LE Warlock. He would do anything for the other party members, but beyond that, he does pretty much whatever he can get away with. Like most LE people, he has something that he feels puts him "above the other scum." He has a soft spot for the ladies, in other words. Of course, being evil, he was rather ruthless in his pursuit of said rapist. A prolonged terrifying chase through the streets, a torture session that was longer still... etc, etc, etc. He's not as evil as some, definitely falls short of vile, some DMs would put him as Neutral simply because he uses evil means rather than ends. Works well with the party, and gets things done when no one else can/will. I find the idea of the Thri'Kreen's eating habits to be a wonderful bit of roleplaying, although overblown. I also like the idea of him sliding slowly into... not just evil... MADNESS!!! Eating flesh and carrying nothing but evil equipment will definitley take a toll on his little bug brain. That does stretch the bounds of pragmatism for me, quite a bit. Especially when you can just smash them up or have them dismembered.
dasneakygit 06-22-05, 02:45 PM	Oh yeah the alignment debacle will get worse too because the party is planning on taking a erynes (thee fallen angel fiend) with them. She wants to repent, and has helped the party but the celestials refuse to accept her recant. They want more proof. She used to be in charge of interrigation of the deamons in the dungeon, slowly over time she began to use torture becuase there was nothing the deamons understood better than fear. Which in all acounts she was still ok (they were evil and would not change), but over time she began in enjoy the pain she inflicted which was a no-no. Couple that with a fiery temper and she was on a one way ticket to falling. I see some interesting things happening in the future, first being she is not a clutchmate so he will treat her poorly, not the best thing when this creature really needs a support group if you get my meaning. The second being that she will also point out the thri-kreen's flaws and failings. The is part of the reason I am willing to let it ride, I am just worried about a blow up. These are mature players but we alredy had one with that damn dagger business.
SneakyPetey 06-22-05, 06:53 PM	dasneakygit, As far as I understand it, CN characters can pretty much follow whatever whim strikes their fancy. I like the comments from the other posters about the character in question and his cultural background. Has his "home culture" been defined by you? Maybe you should work something up so he literally knows where his character is coming from. If the other character's are feeling creeped out by him, I would say that he's roleplaying his character well! How would you feeling hanging out with a giant insect? Personally, the mere presence of such a creature would make my skin crawl, let alone watching it feed on raw flesh... :gah: If you're concerned about where the player is taking this character, I think a few out-of-session conversations are in order. If he is playing up the "corrupted by evil artifacts" thing, good for him! IMHO, he should get some bonus XPs. If he's trying to play up the creepy factor, because he thinks that's how the party should see this creature, then he's still doing a good job, IMHO. If he's doing it to induce vomiting at the gaming table, then maybe you should ask him to tone it down! I hope this helps!
Andrew_980 06-22-05, 10:49 PM	It is very fitting for a thri-kreen to eat anything (referances in various books, they eat any meat) but the player is stating that his motive is not food but to prevent ressurection, so "culture" is not part of it. If he is using "evil gear" focus on that and his motives, a thri-kreen just eating the dead is doing what his kind does:survive and let nothing go to waste
danielinthewolvesden 06-23-05, 12:00 AM	Well the Thrykreen (sp) has taken up a very disturbing habit in recent sessions. Defiling the corpses they come across. To the point of feasting on their flesh. Now this has bothered the good party members but they know that the bug is a flesh eater in the repsect of his race so they have been very tolerant of his actions from a rp standpoint here is the problem. Here is the problem, he does not tell me something like I eat her heart to gain her strength, it has been I rend her apart and eat I don't want her coming back after us. Should I? A. talk to him and give him a final warning? A. Well, unless he is starving and needs the food- which it doesn't appear from your OP.
dasneakygit 06-23-05, 03:46 PM	I talked to him, it seems that the majority of his desire to consume flesh is because he does not want any enemies to be raised from the dead. Rather than to consume flesh for food's sake or to play up the corrupting nature of the artifacts. I warned him that mutilating the corpses just to mutilate them was not a good thing and that maybe toning it down would be in order, if he likes doing it because he wants to be a creepy bug then we can talk more about it. I have not dropped the bomb that resurection only needs a piece of the body. MUHAHHAHA FOr those not familar with Thri-kreen, by their nature are omnivous but are known to comsume the flesh of sentients. Meat is meat for them weather it comes from a human or a cow. Oh he reminded me of his most disturbing habit (which is so disturbing I even forgot about it) He is making a rope of flesh and hair from the fallen. He originally started making it to replace his rope that got destroyed in a disintergration trap earlier in the dungeon. Course he has added a bits from innocent corpses as well, they have found some fallen celestials as well. They have had to keep careful track of their dungeoneering supplies, while water and food has been plentyful simple things like rope have been invaluable. At one point the party was wheeling a wheel barrow around because they had found a cache of supplies.
Thoronmir 06-23-05, 03:55 PM	Oh he reminded me of his most disturbing habit (which is so disturbing I even forgot about it) He is making a rope of flesh and hair from the fallen. He originally started making it to replace his rope that got destroyed in a disintergration trap earlier in the dungeon. Course he has added a bits from innocent corpses as well, they have found some fallen celestials as well.A “flesh” rope? Sorry, I don’t buy it. He’d be better off making a rope from the clothes his victims wore. He’s not worried about making a rope, he’s collecting souvenirs.
FrznFury 06-23-05, 05:19 PM	Unless his Int is low. Remember, the Thri'Kreen are hunters from a sandy desert area, there's really nothing to make much of anything from except corpses, sand and rock. With an Int or Wis at eight or less, it is most likely that he would simply follow tradition (Chaotic characters often have very strong traditions.) and use the sinews, hair, whatever, of his enemies rather than theor clothes, of which he knows absolutely nothing. (Remember Thri'Kreen are pragmatic insects. The only clothes they can even concieve of are harnesses designed to hold gear.) Then again, maybe he's harvesting for a great souvenir to take back to his buggy shaman girlfriend... ... Now is he evil for braiding dead flesh or good for risking death at the hands of his apalled companions to bring home a gift? (So it's a stretch, sue me.)
SneakyPetey 06-23-05, 06:49 PM	Unless his Int is low. Remember, the Thri'Kreen are hunters from a sandy desert area, there's really nothing to make much of anything from except corpses, sand and rock. With an Int or Wis at eight or less, it is most likely that he would simply follow tradition Well, how traditional is it for a Thri'Kreen to hang around a bunch of humans? :confused: This guy doesn't follow traditions. I don't buy it. (Chaotic characters often have very strong traditions.) Is this something new to 3.5e? I don't remember reading this anywhere. Seriously, have I been missing something? I would think the opposite was true for chaotics, who treasure freedom. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, I was just wondering where this statement comes from. (Remember Thri'Kreen are pragmatic insects. The only clothes they can even concieve of are harnesses designed to hold gear.) Hair and hide (and clothes) I could believe. Flesh and sinew? Nope. The more I read about this, the more I think he's just trying to be freaky... I highly recommend that you write up some background on his character's people and homeland if you expect him to abide by certain standards. I ran into troubles similar to this with a character who had next to no background prepared. By the time I got off my arse and wrote it, this player had alienated half the party. A part of this problem was because he was (is) a jerk, but the other part of the problem was that he had nothing to go on... I blame myself for the latter. I'm not saying your player is a jerk, I'm just suggesting you try to "flesh out" (sorry for the pun) his character's culture. This way, you would both have some kind of documentation to point to next time you pull him aside and say, "I don't think your character would really do that." I hope this helps.
dasneakygit 06-24-05, 02:50 PM	I think next session we are going to have a out of character sit down and have everyone explain their modivations so that everyone can understand where each character is comming from better. I think this will help with the freaky behavior of the Thri-kreen. Found a new problem I did not realize, seems the deep dwarf wants to become an assasin so he can be redeemed so he can become a calishite assasin. I promptly explained you do not just become evil just to redeeme yourself, he did not agree with me. Although I explained I would give him another more suitable challenge if he really desires to become this redeemed assasin prc. Sometimes I wonder how these guys have been playing together for years hehe :)