Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thasis 10-13-05, 04:44 PM	Well I'm running a big campaign (4-8 players depending on who's available on the game day). Now I've never run anything but an evil campaign. I never plan on personally running anything else. My players all refuse to play good characters. They're practically evil in reality *shakes fist*. Now I've never had a problem with this, hell even as Chaotic Evil. But now... oi... I've got some realy good role-players, and D&Ders. Pretty much all of them are. But they playing insanely in-character. They are all deranged freaks. One's a cannabilist who is prone to violence, one's a scitso who betrays his friends at every oppurtunity, one is the hero-ish guy who always gets taken advantage of, another guy who is joining is going to be a half-elf ranger (going all Aaragorn on my ass), and then therez the all dreaded brother who is joining just to be an ******* and he's going to join and play a good-guy druid character. Now the problem is... nobody wants to work together. Or when people do the real psycho's crush everything. But the thing is I can't realy tell them not to do what they're doing because they're doing everything in-character and they're sticking with there character type. There awsome role-players, but they tend to **** each-other and the town gaurds off... alot... What wuld be a good idea to get the real freaks to work together? Especialy when they're chaotic (insane) evil?
Jancarius 10-13-05, 04:49 PM	Kill every problem character. Brutually. Don't let them give you any **** about it. "But I was playing IC!" "So was the town guards, who happen to be higher level than you, more numerous than you, and stabbing you repeatedly. Roll your initative, punk." Repeat this process until they make characters capable of functioning in normal society.
Illion the Red 10-13-05, 04:52 PM	What wuld be a good idea to get the real freaks to work together? Especialy when they're chaotic (insane) evil? In short, you don't. You have enabled, perhaps even encouraged this behavior. It is likely far too late to rectify it. Chaotic Evil characters will not work together. They (as you describe) are antisocial and individualistic. Changing that would change their characters to the point that they are no longer the characters you started out with. Bed is made. Covers are turned down. Sleep away...
Super Guy 10-13-05, 04:56 PM	There isn't a way. I suppose they'll learn now that, when the campaign falls apart, it's their fault. Don't pull some bull railroading system where they have to band together. They're not going to want to. If they try crazy things in society, make sure they pay, just like what should happen. They'll get the picture that teamwork and subtlety is the only way to make an evil party work. Well, not so much subtlety, but it's still damned important.
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 05:09 PM	Well I'm running a big campaign (4-8 players depending on who's available on the game day). Now I've never run anything but an evil campaign. I never plan on personally running anything else. My players all refuse to play good characters. They're practically evil in reality *shakes fist*. Now I've never had a problem with this, hell even as Chaotic Evil. But now... oi... I've got some realy good role-players, and D&Ders. Pretty much all of them are. But they playing insanely in-character. They are all deranged freaks. One's a cannabilist who is prone to violence, one's a scitso who betrays his friends at every oppurtunity, one is the hero-ish guy who always gets taken advantage of, another guy who is joining is going to be a half-elf ranger (going all Aaragorn on my ass), and then therez the all dreaded brother who is joining just to be an ******* and he's going to join and play a good-guy druid character. Now the problem is... nobody wants to work together. Or when people do the real psycho's crush everything. But the thing is I can't realy tell them not to do what they're doing because they're doing everything in-character and they're sticking with there character type. There awsome role-players, but they tend to **** each-other and the town gaurds off... alot... What wuld be a good idea to get the real freaks to work together? Especialy when they're chaotic (insane) evil? You screwed up big time. Now you know why I don't allow Evil and any form of Stupid in my campaigns unless I am controlling said character. They tend to blow all possibilities party cohesion out of the water. In the name of RP, which is about as close to blasphemy as you can get in DnD. Drop the game and let someone else DM if you are incapable of DM-ing a game that encourages party cohesion. Your headaches are not going to subside, period. In fact, they are as likely as not to get worse.
rbrt_Spade 10-13-05, 05:15 PM	You screwed up big time. Now you know why I don't allow Evil and any form of Stupid in my campaigns unless I am controlling said character. They tend to blow all possibilities party cohesion out of the water. In the name of RP, which is about as close to blasphemy as you can get in DnD. Drop the game and let someone else DM if you are incapable of DM-ing a game that encourages party cohesion. Your headaches are not going to subside, period. In fact, they are as likely as not to get worse. that was cruel man, cool down and shut up ;) mabye have all of the pcs have a common evil goal and work together or you can turn the game into a campaign where they are agianst each other. you could make a good story out of this. mabye a evil vs evil war. you could also work with the backround storys to idea for campaign pledges to help a evil doer and serve him also mabye good fighting them
FriendoftheDork 10-13-05, 05:18 PM	Ok so you're psycho characters won't play nicely together? Naaah... how did that happen? :rolleyes: Really I even enjoy playing evil games done properly, and this is not one of them. Now even beside good vs evil conflict, there are characters that will betray his friends, and that just won't do. Unless you're playing D&D duel, that is. So some of the chars need to change or even be removed altogether, and that MAY fix the problem. If not, you basically need to remove players, starting with mr backstabber and possible mr lunatic. Another way to do it is to tell the players that if they start attacking their fellow party members in any way, even by stealing or indirectly through spells or outside help, their will instantly lose their character. This ruins a bit of fun for me, not to mention suspense of disbelief as you force the players to metagame, but that's the only way these guys can work together in some fashion.
Jancarius 10-13-05, 05:22 PM	that was cruel man, cool down and shut up ;) mabye have all of the pcs have a common evil goal and work together or you can turn the game into a campaign where they are agianst each other. you could make a good story out of this. mabye a evil vs evil war.This requires them to have a powerful evil NPC directing the party at all times. Not fun. Also, contrived. It's fine if they want to run a PvP campaign, but I dunno about how good an idea that is... you could also work with the backround storys to idea for campaign pledges to help a evil doer and serve him also mabye good fighting themBecause CE and CS characters keep their promises when not held at knife/wand point.
rbrt_Spade 10-13-05, 05:26 PM	you guys dont like ce dont you? whats with all of the your campaigns dead,shot in the hole here guys? i think all of us are super dm are we?
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 05:31 PM	you guys dont like ce dont you? whats with all of the your campaigns dead,shot in the hole here guys? i think all of us are super dm are we? Not super DM. Just someone with the barest minimum understanding of the underbelly of human nature :D
tennesseefats 10-13-05, 05:57 PM	you guys dont like ce dont you? No, I think you're misinterpreting the comments here. It's not about whether people like or dislike CE, but rather the nature of Chaotic Evil as a function of party unity. If a DM craves party cohesion, he or she isn't going to get it when the PCs are CE (and played as such).CE conflicts with the very notion of 'party cohesion'. Chaotic doesn't lend itself to compromise or the individual subjugation which is necessary of a true 'party', and evil doen'st give them an innate desire to be nice to, or care about, each other. The only caveat to that would be the characters having a bond that goes beyond their alignment. A CE group, for example, could be brothers, childhood friends, or have something that drives them to work together. To the OP: Unless you can give them a unifying reason to act together, such as an outside threat or a plan that requires them to work together, or another 'hook' that binds them together, they will always participate in the unfocused 'evilness' they ascribe to CE (not to say that there aren't other ways of looking at CE, but that is another post). Since character creation is past, it will be really difficult to introduce a party bond that forces them to think and act contrary to what they believe CE is and an external unifier may reek of railroading (at worst). Evil Campaigns can be fun and interesting, but they requires far more work for the DM and, for the PCs, a delicate and subtle balance between "playing my character" (which as a blanket justification to do as you please is really weak) and "doing what is best for the game" that your players may not be capable of. Not a criticism, some folks just don't do evil well.
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 06:05 PM	The only caveat to that would be the characters having a bond that goes beyond their alignment. A CE group, for example, could be brothers, childhood friends, or have something that drives them to work together. Even this sometimees fail. I point you to Raistlin.
calistro 10-13-05, 06:11 PM	The alignment CE is just fine. and yes CE npcs happen, and CE npc's can work together. It's just that they don't do it well, if they are made to work together they will only hold together decently for a short while, if they work together under their terms, it might work out for a little longer but not likely much so. when it comes to pc's, it would take a hellava lot of convincing me to let me allow it. usually i will relent after a lot of them working on me, but I will let it fail in a most spectacular way. Although I did DM for a player that had a CE fighter/rogue that lasted over a year of 2x week playing, but that was a one on one adventure. One player, one DM. I would suggest that, you have your players make new charachters, or even you give them a frame to make their charachters around, something like you are all in an elite ops training program for a very rich kingdom. they were sent off to some far reach of the kingdom for training and after they are set back from training they find XXXX. That way they first need to make a "team" Let them work out who is going to be the tank, who is going to be the rogue, etc. but tell them emphatically that they don't have to like each other, but they all know that they might be the only people in the world that they can depend on. Work that angle and you might get an inch from them.
Jancarius 10-13-05, 06:17 PM	Allow me to post the best description of CE I've ever seen. think "chaotic evil" in a realistic sense and not the stupidly over-the-top archetype people try to use because of the implicit extreme poles of D&D's allignment system, is best described by the "Miscreant" in Rifts. You're a selfserving jerk with no care for the rights or wellbeing of others, and you do what pleases you with no regard to obligations or codes of conduct - straightforward enough, yes? Chaotic evil nicely fits the image of selfish and petty thuggery - you're not under obligation to murder the farmer who bumped into you, but if you were to slap him around for it and send him home cowering and sans wallet the situation suddenly comes down from Chaotic Stupid and sounds pretty feasible. Be meanspirited and petty. Beyond the obligatory thievery, it besuits you to conduct yourself as a cocky bullying punk thriving on the fear of the commoners - just remember that when the same card gets turned on you, the properly Chaotic approach is to whine about it and drive a grudge home to them the first chance you get. Whatever you do, keep yourself out of the utterly stupid (and sadly prevalent) mindset that your allignment is somehow a paragon of cruelty and evil. That kind of extreme is the province of Neutral Evil and the reason that they are the ones who net the title of "True Evil" in other sources.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-13-05, 06:37 PM	Every creature has a modicum of self preservation. Time to see if your players are playing 'real' people or cartoon characters. Put them in danger that they can't beat without working together. If they really are rping, they'll pull it together. If they aren't they're characters will perish and you can talk to them about thier new character being a team player.
Leach 10-13-05, 06:50 PM	To paraphrase BlackHatMatt, no player can every rightfully say "but that's what my character would do!" It's just not true. The correct phrase is "but that's what my character would probably do!" No human being is so one-dimensional that they react the same way to every situation. Now, the situation presented here is tough. As others have pointed out, Chaotic Evil people tend to stick together like the same ends of magnets: they don't. If the players are really as good of roleplayers as you claim, though, they should be able to find some reason to keep the party cohesive. That doesn't mean nice, but it does mean "willing to not backstab everyone else." Even Chaotic Evil people can work together (and, yes, care about other people) given the right motivation. Tell your players that they need to find that motivation, or you wash your hands of the party when it finally implodes. (From what you said, it's a question of when, not if.) That help any?
Gallameed 10-13-05, 08:26 PM	Next time your group is together just explain to them how you feel. I dont know how old you guys are or what type of things might interest you but I'm sure if you are honest with your friends things will be ok. Explain to them how D&D is for most other groups and ask them if its ok to stop all the mindless stuff for a while. Try telling everyone, in a nice "down to earth" and friendly way that you really want to try something different, and explain how some people in the group want to play good-guy characters like Arragorn from LOTR's. Tell them you can all try having grand adventure like that and explore the game world in another way. "So how about we all create characters that are normal/nice/friends or allies and try playing through an adventure together." Tell them how its not fun for you as a DM, when they just run around your campaign world butchering each other like some weird "Zombie Chicks in Mutantville" b-movie and explain how it might be cool to try a game based around a fantasy novel, LOTRs, Conan, 13th Warrior or whatever else style of campaign might interest you, for once. Play nice for a while and promise them to run a pure evil, slaughter house game on the side/later.
panther 10-13-05, 08:46 PM	I have no problem with evil characters, if they are well roleplayed. You say that your players are good roleplayers, and good D&D players. The problem then, isn't that you have "chaotic/evil stupid" players, but that they are roleplaying "chaotic/evil stupid" characters, whose concepts include betrayal of other PC's. Chaotic evil creatures betray one another when it actually serves their purposes, not just whenever they can. If they really are good D&D players, try talking to them about party cohesion. How I would go about it is modifying their character concepts: for example, instead of a schizophrenic who betrays his friends, a schizophrenic who betrays and murders everyone but the PC's. Still severely messed up, still chaotic evil, but now a character who is actually part of the party. Don't force your players to do this, but if they persist in chaotic-evil stupidity, I would prescribe psychological treatment in the form of a cleric of Pelor's mace.
imperialjunkie 10-13-05, 10:22 PM	To the OP: It appears (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) that you have fostered this type of game. If the only thing you've ever DMed is an evil game, then you might have difficulty A) knowing how to run a good or neutral game, and B) getting your typically evil players to put up with newcomers who want to play good characters. Good and evil don't mix. Never have; never will. Conflict will always occur. This is why I don't allow evil PCs in my game. Rant: The type of game with the type of PCs described by the OP are the reason why D&D gets a bad name. If I was a wife-beating, unemployed, ex-convict heroine addict I wouldn't let my kid play in the OP's game-- let alone some moral parent trying to bring their kid up right. Save the infantile fantasizing about doing dispicable acts to your dark bedroom after you've gotten bored with late-night cable. Regarding Chaotic Evil: The best modern example in my mind of CE behavior is Anti-Social Personality Disorder. It's in the DSM-4- pg. 301 I think. The subject has a pattern of violating the rights of others and does not understand consequences for his/her actions. They have no sense of responsibility and tend to blame others for their problems. They are given to violent behavior and constant conflicts. Though this is a disorder, it is not 'insanity' in the classical sense. The cause is not physiological and thus cannot be treated with medication. They are in essence selfish people who have developed patterns of thinking and behavior in order to cope with the repeated failure or conflict in their lives. Run away from them when you meet them in real life.
Gallameed 10-13-05, 10:52 PM	I think it may just be an age thing. I have a friend whos little brother (aged around 15-16 or something) runs Warhammer fantasy roleplay game for some kids around the same age, he often tell us about their "awsome" games. He was given our old WHFRP books once we changed over to D&D. It seems like these games basically involve all the PCs being half vampire/werewolf/demons or whatever and arguing with each other, murdering everyone and then attacking famous warhammer world npcs like Felix and Gotrek (who just always happen to be around) and then dying all the time. They get frustrated with eack other, constantly try to out-do each other and hold grudges from old characters over to new ones. The lad often asks his brother to see if he can join our group, I always politely say no. The kid sat in on one of our games once and thought it was "just a load of talking, where's the action?" but has still expressed a desire to join us old farts. I explained that we like to play a little bit more seriously and I we would have a big problem with players who behave as his group does, I might let him join in some time and see how things go but wouldnt stand for any crap. I feel sorry for him in a way because some of the guys he plays with are total mentalists by the sound of things. Hate to generalise but I will anyway: They are the type of kids who only eat foods with e-numbers and ALL the preservatives, speak in swearwords, wear hoodies with the hoods up while indoors, listen to music so loud your furniture starts to bleed and have t-shirts with slogans like: "transvestite Dwarf mongrel f*** explosion", you know those type of lovely little darlings with AZBOs... AZBO's are all the rage in the UK these days. :D
thasis 10-14-05, 02:43 PM	Well I'm going to clear one thing up, the players are cleary enjoying themselves, I'm enjoying myselves, everyone is having a blast actualy. I just wish they would work together. I don't realy want to shut down the adventure though. My friends would all probally stop playing with me if I shut down ANOTHER adventure... But meh, I'll see what I can do. I'll ask some of the players to tone it down I guess. If that doesn't work, well I'll just play along with it, and the players will all die again... :(
Leap_UK 10-14-05, 03:04 PM	I think it may just be an age thing. I have a friend whos little brother (aged around 15-16 or something) runs Warhammer fantasy roleplay game for some kids around the same age, he often tell us about their "awsome" games. He was given our old WHFRP books once we changed over to D&D. It seems like these games basically involve all the PCs being half vampire/werewolf/demons or whatever and arguing with each other, murdering everyone and then attacking famous warhammer world npcs like Felix and Gotrek (who just always happen to be around) and then dying all the time. They get frustrated with eack other, constantly try to out-do each other and hold grudges from old characters over to new ones. The lad often asks his brother to see if he can join our group, I always politely say no. The kid sat in on one of our games once and thought it was "just a load of talking, where's the action?" but has still expressed a desire to join us old farts. I explained that we like to play a little bit more seriously and I we would have a big problem with players who behave as his group does, I might let him join in some time and see how things go but wouldnt stand for any crap. I feel sorry for him in a way because some of the guys he plays with are total mentalists by the sound of things. Hate to generalise but I will anyway: They are the type of kids who only eat foods with e-numbers and ALL the preservatives, speak in swearwords, wear hoodies with the hoods up while indoors, listen to music so loud your furniture starts to bleed and have t-shirts with slogans like: "transvestite Dwarf mongrel f*** explosion", you know those type of lovely little darlings with AZBOs... AZBO's are all the rage in the UK these days. :D You are a bad bad person for making me spill my beer :D but you are very right as well :)
Lincoln Hills 10-14-05, 04:08 PM	Rant: The type of game with the type of PCs described by the OP are the reason why D&D gets a bad name. If I was a wife-beating, unemployed, ex-convict heroine addict I wouldn't let my kid play in the OP's game-- let alone some moral parent trying to bring their kid up right. Save the infantile fantasizing about doing dispicable acts to your dark bedroom after you've gotten bored with late-night cable. Gosh, IJ, it's a good thing you put the word 'rant' in front of that: otherwise somebody might have gotten offended! :D Thasis, I honestly suggest that you urge most of your players to roll up new characters. Explain that they're so... good at role-playing... that they've created characters who hate each other and have no reason to work together... so they've all gone their separate ways. That's logic. If you seriously want to encourage teamwork, allow the PC who was the most "team-oriented" to keep his PC: tell the group that the next session will center around that PC selecting new team-mates to help him out... so the new characters should be people who would work well as a team. Note that this could be construed as favoritism: it is favoritism, in fact, but you're showing favoritism toward the people who want to form an adventuring party... so I think your group will eventually forgive you. After all, they want to have adventures, not squabble and stab each other. (Otherwise they wouldn't need a DM.) Do not - as some posters will suggest - "drop a mountain" on the characters who couldn't function as part of a party. They can continue to live, and do horrible things: they just aren't party-worthy, so their exploits will have to wait for some future solo campaigns.
Leewei 10-14-05, 06:05 PM	1) Give PCs an opponent they hate even more than each other. 2) Give them a common prize to work towards. 3) Allow PCs to kill off each other. Any time a PC dies, only allow a replacement character one level lower than the rest of the group with starting equipment for a level 1 PC. Eventually, they'll either all end up working together, or else you'll have a bunch of level 1 PCs following a higher-level PC, waiting to gank him and take his stuff. Eventually, they'll grow tired of losing ground and infighting and figure out how to work together.
SwitchUK 10-14-05, 06:31 PM	hmmm... chaotic juicy...
thasis 10-15-05, 08:57 PM	Hey guys, thanx for the advice. I think I worked things out though. I talked to the character with the scitso, and he says as long as I can get them all having a common goal he'll probally tone it down. I'll jus have to realy talk to the pyro/cannabilist and the rest of the new people joining (to make sure they don't make the same mistake as the first 3 players).