Alignment issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EyelessBeholder
12-29-06, 10:28 PM Honestly i think its the only flaw in a DnD game cause its just so hard to keep a character in alignment. Atleast as i can see its hard cause the terms arent defined, atleast in detail. It seems that there are morality issues needed to be undertood for these alignments.

Does anyone know of a site i can find better understandings of alignments and there boundries, maybe also ways of rewarding players who keep up with good alignments.
Regular_K
12-30-06, 12:12 AM Well, if you don't like the alignment rules, you could always change to a variant rule. The rule is that a person is neither good nor evil, but his/her actions are. The only way detect evil would work, is if a person is currently engaged in an evil act. So, if a villain was passing poison to the mayor of a town, then that's an evil act, so detect evil would work on him. Now if that same person was buying a pair of nice slacks, then detect evil will not work, unless he was planning on all the slacks in the world, so everybody was pantsless and thus cold.

Now you may wonder, how would smite evil work for a paladin. Well, I'd just change it to just, Smite. And because a paladin usually fights evil people anyway, it doesn't pose much of a problem.
The_Fan
12-30-06, 09:39 AM I find these basics:

1) Good is motivated by a concern for others and their well-being above your own.
2) Evil is motivated by a concern for your own well-being at the expense of others.
3) Lawful creatures are driven by rationality, reason, and the big picture.
4) Chaotic creatures are driven by emotion, instinct, and the small picture.
5) Neutral creatures are somewhere in between, with conflicting motivations either way. Most creatures, therefore, are neutral.

These same rules can apply to a cause as well. If you willingly and without hesitation sacrifice others to advance your cause, no matter how noble, you're probably evil.
CharlieRock
12-30-06, 09:59 AM Pick alignment last. (or as close to last as possible).
That way, you have already a concept and can find the closest alignment that fits. Then don't sweat it anymore. Just play out the concept. As a DM your job is easiest with alignment. You just use it as a guide for NPC actions. Begging for mercy from a NE? Not likely granted. LG Sheriff sees the PCs breaking into a store after hours? He affects an arrest.
See? Not that hard. ;)
UAMDB
12-30-06, 10:57 AM Here is my suggestion

Find an old copy of the PLayers Handbook from 2nd ed. There is a section what each aligment would do in the same situtation. I have always used it as a guide.

Ok so since not every one has that book here is the second suggestion.

Sit down and write out what you think each section of alignment mean. Such as "good"= helping people in danger, Not killing just anyone.

"Lawful"= obeying the letter of the law, keeping to your word.

Then write out how you think these would work together.
"Lawful evil" = Selfish person(evil) but will always honor is word. I think of "Mr. White" from Resoiver Dogs as the prime lawful evil. Notice that even though he is lawful he can still break the law. because when you combine two types of alignment they have to be changed slightly.

Important side note : This is how I play alignment. I am not saying that I am playing it correct according to RAW, and I am not saying this is how someone should play alignment. Please do not argue about weither or not my interpurtation of alignment is correct. That is not the point. The point is that alignment is very much open to DM. The rules are writen in a vauge manner for this very reason.
SnowSage
12-30-06, 11:32 AM Dude... don't try to find bounaries... if something is obviously evil or obviously chaotic, warn you paladin before he does it, but otherwise, let it go...

Good and Evil are very easy to understand, while Law and Chaos simply are not. They are open to interpretation, and by trying to find boundaries you are trying to find ways to punish people who interpret them in different ways than you or than the people you find the boundaries from. Also, you seem to be using the Alignment as a streightjaket system. DON'T. The alignment is two insignificant words/latters on a charracter sheet... that's really all. Leave roleplaying options open, as long as they know that if a cliric of Pelor steals from a starving orphen he'll need to do a lot of praying to get his spells back.
DarkRhystar
12-30-06, 12:45 PM "Lawful"= obeying the letter of the law, keeping to your word.

Lawful doesn't necessarily imply this anymore. Obedience to Authority may be interpreted many ways. The older values such as trustworthiness and honor are still around though.
SnowSage
12-30-06, 01:37 PM 4) Chaotic creatures are driven by emotion, instinct, and the small picture.

True, True, not so much.

Big picture vs small picture is more a question of Int/Wis scores, and interpretation of your knowledge.

Interpretation is not an alignment based thing, it is a roleplaying/charracter development based thing.

And I dearly hope you aren't implying that only Lawful people can have high stats.
AntiDjinn
12-30-06, 01:50 PM DnD game cause its just so hard to keep a character in alignment.

You don't keep a character in alignment. Alignments are not restrictive, they are simply a reflection of where the character stands morally and ethically. Actions and motivations dictate alignment not the other way around. Your character's alignment never causes him to lock up and be incapable of a particular action.

To put it another way, a Lawful Good character can decide to start murdering orphans while they sleep, he will be Chaotic Evil for doing this. What keeps him "in alignment"? Nothing, because what he does determines his alignment, not the other way around.

Certain classes (Paladin, Monk, and to a lesser extent Barbarian and Bard) have alignment restrictions, but it is the class not the alignment that is restrictive. You must keep to or away from a particular alignment to keep your standing in the class. Even then, nothing stops your character from violating this restriction, you just suffer the consequences. If alignments were restrictive then none of these classes would have penalties for violating alignment because the alignments themselves would prevent actions that would be in violation.
The_Fan
12-30-06, 04:12 PM True, True, not so much.

Big picture vs small picture is more a question of Int/Wis scores, and interpretation of your knowledge.

Interpretation is not an alignment based thing, it is a roleplaying/charracter development based thing.

And I dearly hope you aren't implying that only Lawful people can have high stats.
Oh, no, by small picture I mean "the little guy." As in, more focused on the individual.
UAMDB
12-30-06, 07:02 PM Lawful doesn't necessarily imply this anymore. Obedience to Authority may be interpreted many ways. The older values such as trustworthiness and honor are still around though.

Please re-read my whole post.
Important side note : This is how I play alignment. I am not saying that I am playing it correct according to RAW, and I am not saying this is how someone should play alignment. Please do not argue about weither or not my interpurtation of alignment is correct. That is not the point. The point is that alignment is very much open to DM. The rules are writen in a vauge manner for this very reason.
Hack and Smasher
12-30-06, 07:55 PM I'll save you time write what you want on your character sheet chances are your gonna really be neutral evil.
CryoSilver
12-30-06, 08:01 PM One important thing: Unless you're a paladin or cleric, alignment is not dependent on one act.

Alignment is a general trend of actions and outlooks. You can be mostly good and still do the occasional evil thing, and still be Good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EyelessBeholder 12-29-06, 10:28 PM	Honestly i think its the only flaw in a DnD game cause its just so hard to keep a character in alignment. Atleast as i can see its hard cause the terms arent defined, atleast in detail. It seems that there are morality issues needed to be undertood for these alignments. Does anyone know of a site i can find better understandings of alignments and there boundries, maybe also ways of rewarding players who keep up with good alignments.
Regular_K 12-30-06, 12:12 AM	Well, if you don't like the alignment rules, you could always change to a variant rule. The rule is that a person is neither good nor evil, but his/her actions are. The only way detect evil would work, is if a person is currently engaged in an evil act. So, if a villain was passing poison to the mayor of a town, then that's an evil act, so detect evil would work on him. Now if that same person was buying a pair of nice slacks, then detect evil will not work, unless he was planning on all the slacks in the world, so everybody was pantsless and thus cold. Now you may wonder, how would smite evil work for a paladin. Well, I'd just change it to just, Smite. And because a paladin usually fights evil people anyway, it doesn't pose much of a problem.
The_Fan 12-30-06, 09:39 AM	I find these basics: 1) Good is motivated by a concern for others and their well-being above your own. 2) Evil is motivated by a concern for your own well-being at the expense of others. 3) Lawful creatures are driven by rationality, reason, and the big picture. 4) Chaotic creatures are driven by emotion, instinct, and the small picture. 5) Neutral creatures are somewhere in between, with conflicting motivations either way. Most creatures, therefore, are neutral. These same rules can apply to a cause as well. If you willingly and without hesitation sacrifice others to advance your cause, no matter how noble, you're probably evil.
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 09:59 AM	Pick alignment last. (or as close to last as possible). That way, you have already a concept and can find the closest alignment that fits. Then don't sweat it anymore. Just play out the concept. As a DM your job is easiest with alignment. You just use it as a guide for NPC actions. Begging for mercy from a NE? Not likely granted. LG Sheriff sees the PCs breaking into a store after hours? He affects an arrest. See? Not that hard. ;)
UAMDB 12-30-06, 10:57 AM	Here is my suggestion Find an old copy of the PLayers Handbook from 2nd ed. There is a section what each aligment would do in the same situtation. I have always used it as a guide. Ok so since not every one has that book here is the second suggestion. Sit down and write out what you think each section of alignment mean. Such as "good"= helping people in danger, Not killing just anyone. "Lawful"= obeying the letter of the law, keeping to your word. Then write out how you think these would work together. "Lawful evil" = Selfish person(evil) but will always honor is word. I think of "Mr. White" from Resoiver Dogs as the prime lawful evil. Notice that even though he is lawful he can still break the law. because when you combine two types of alignment they have to be changed slightly. Important side note : This is how I play alignment. I am not saying that I am playing it correct according to RAW, and I am not saying this is how someone should play alignment. Please do not argue about weither or not my interpurtation of alignment is correct. That is not the point. The point is that alignment is very much open to DM. The rules are writen in a vauge manner for this very reason.
SnowSage 12-30-06, 11:32 AM	Dude... don't try to find bounaries... if something is obviously evil or obviously chaotic, warn you paladin before he does it, but otherwise, let it go... Good and Evil are very easy to understand, while Law and Chaos simply are not. They are open to interpretation, and by trying to find boundaries you are trying to find ways to punish people who interpret them in different ways than you or than the people you find the boundaries from. Also, you seem to be using the Alignment as a streightjaket system. DON'T. The alignment is two insignificant words/latters on a charracter sheet... that's really all. Leave roleplaying options open, as long as they know that if a cliric of Pelor steals from a starving orphen he'll need to do a lot of praying to get his spells back.
DarkRhystar 12-30-06, 12:45 PM	"Lawful"= obeying the letter of the law, keeping to your word. Lawful doesn't necessarily imply this anymore. Obedience to Authority may be interpreted many ways. The older values such as trustworthiness and honor are still around though.
SnowSage 12-30-06, 01:37 PM	4) Chaotic creatures are driven by emotion, instinct, and the small picture. True, True, not so much. Big picture vs small picture is more a question of Int/Wis scores, and interpretation of your knowledge. Interpretation is not an alignment based thing, it is a roleplaying/charracter development based thing. And I dearly hope you aren't implying that only Lawful people can have high stats.
AntiDjinn 12-30-06, 01:50 PM	DnD game cause its just so hard to keep a character in alignment. You don't keep a character in alignment. Alignments are not restrictive, they are simply a reflection of where the character stands morally and ethically. Actions and motivations dictate alignment not the other way around. Your character's alignment never causes him to lock up and be incapable of a particular action. To put it another way, a Lawful Good character can decide to start murdering orphans while they sleep, he will be Chaotic Evil for doing this. What keeps him "in alignment"? Nothing, because what he does determines his alignment, not the other way around. Certain classes (Paladin, Monk, and to a lesser extent Barbarian and Bard) have alignment restrictions, but it is the class not the alignment that is restrictive. You must keep to or away from a particular alignment to keep your standing in the class. Even then, nothing stops your character from violating this restriction, you just suffer the consequences. If alignments were restrictive then none of these classes would have penalties for violating alignment because the alignments themselves would prevent actions that would be in violation.
The_Fan 12-30-06, 04:12 PM	True, True, not so much. Big picture vs small picture is more a question of Int/Wis scores, and interpretation of your knowledge. Interpretation is not an alignment based thing, it is a roleplaying/charracter development based thing. And I dearly hope you aren't implying that only Lawful people can have high stats. Oh, no, by small picture I mean "the little guy." As in, more focused on the individual.
UAMDB 12-30-06, 07:02 PM	Lawful doesn't necessarily imply this anymore. Obedience to Authority may be interpreted many ways. The older values such as trustworthiness and honor are still around though. Please re-read my whole post. Important side note : This is how I play alignment. I am not saying that I am playing it correct according to RAW, and I am not saying this is how someone should play alignment. Please do not argue about weither or not my interpurtation of alignment is correct. That is not the point. The point is that alignment is very much open to DM. The rules are writen in a vauge manner for this very reason.
Hack and Smasher 12-30-06, 07:55 PM	I'll save you time write what you want on your character sheet chances are your gonna really be neutral evil.
CryoSilver 12-30-06, 08:01 PM	One important thing: Unless you're a paladin or cleric, alignment is not dependent on one act. Alignment is a general trend of actions and outlooks. You can be mostly good and still do the occasional evil thing, and still be Good.