Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pkrerc 03-29-05, 05:43 PM	Right now my PCs are facing a rather large gang of bandits and brigands. The leader of which is a man named (King) Fellfrost- corny name, I know. My problem is, as you can see by looking at the title of the thread that I am not to sure on what alignment to make this person. I originally thought of him as LE, but now I am not too sure if he is CE, neutral or even good. The PCs haven't really faced him much, only seeing him once or twice in person, so it doesn't matter ATM, but in the future it could become a problem having an alignment-less NPC =P Well, I might as well start out by telling you all a little about him: he was once a high ranking nobleman, about the status of a duke. He is the nephew to the current king, and believes himself the rightful ruler of this nation, which of course is absolute rubbish, since his father was the king's younger brother. Motivated by greed and jealousy, he attempted to usurp the king's throne, but when the king became alerted to the man's intentions, he was forced to hide and lost everything he owned. This perhaps, caused him to fall into complete insanity. He now resides in a crumbling, ruined keep which he (seriously) calls his castle and eats rat meat and drinks brackish water and calls it a succulent feast. He orders his thugs to refer to him as "king" or "magesty". He commands his men through fear, though he may not even realize it. His men are without a doubt all CE, or at best NE, they are a disorganized rabble who live in squalor and have almost no morals, however despite all this, Fellfrost thinks of his men as a highly trained order of knights, as valorous as any paladin, and he thinks of himself as a righteous hero, he believes the king he is fighting against is a tyrannical usurper, a despot who is hated by all in his kingdom, however the king is in fact a just and benevolent ruler who is quite beloved. When he took over a village and he caught one of his men attempting to rape a girl, he smashed the man's face in with his gauntletted fist, (and proceeded to tell the girl that she and her town were in "good hands") and when the surviving king's soldiers attempted to hide inside a church, he obeyed the sanctuary laws and did not go inside and kill them (his lieutennant did, however, order the men to brick up the doors and windows, trapping the poor people inside-- but that is another story), and there are a few other somewhat good acts. Also, he isn't very well liked even among his men, for obvious reasons. They only follow him for pretty much 3 reasons 1) he is a good general and excellent fighter 2) they will get brutally beaten if they disobey him 3) he is the only one who has a (at least somewhat) legal claim to the throne, and if he does become king, then there will be good stuff in it for them Anyways, what alignment would you think that he is?
pkrerc 03-29-05, 05:58 PM	A shiny quarter to whoever answers first :D I know it is a stupid character concept and a long post, but I'm a n00b DM, help me out here please?
Astinex 03-29-05, 06:07 PM	I’d go with a schizophrenic twist. Give the BBEG two similar personalities that are difficult to identify by anyone who doesn’t know him on a personal level. One personality is C/G. (And has the added benefit of confusing a paladin.) This covers the benevolent acts he shows but allows for the rash actions taken. The other I’d make L/E. This covers the adherence to a code and the violent actions against his men. Make the Lieutenant the only person who really knows about the BBEG’s schizophrenia and is using it to his advantage. The Lieutenant lies to the BBEG about what the troops actually do, has the C/G BBEG personality convinced he is a loyal servant, and the L/E BBEG personality convinced he is a steadfast supporter of the BBEG’s claim to the throne.
Astinex 03-29-05, 06:10 PM	I know it is a stupid character concept and a long post, but I'm a n00b DM, help me out here please? Actually, I'm quite impressed with the roleplay possibilities for this. If played properly this BBEG could be a very memorable one. Your idea has given me inspriation for a LBEG in my current campaign that will fit nicely into a gap I've been trying to fill.
kaeso 03-29-05, 06:15 PM	well, he seems to be very lawful, and he obeyed teh laws of that sacred place... so he's definitely lawful, and though he did stop that girl from being raped, hes insane which drives him to commit villainous acts although he doesn't believe he is evil. unless u make him scitsophrenic w/ two alignments because of two personalities, hes pretty much lawful neutral i think.
pkrerc 03-29-05, 06:19 PM	I’d go with a schizophrenic twist. Give the BBEG two similar personalities that are difficult to identify by anyone who doesn’t know him on a personal level. One personality is C/G. (And has the added benefit of confusing a paladin.) This covers the benevolent acts he shows but allows for the rash actions taken. The other I’d make L/E. This covers the adherence to a code and the violent actions against his men. Make the Lieutenant the only person who really knows about the BBEG’s schizophrenia and is using it to his advantage. The Lieutenant lies to the BBEG about what the troops actually do, has the C/G BBEG personality convinced he is a loyal servant, and the L/E BBEG personality convinced he is a steadfast supporter of the BBEG’s claim to the throne. That is actually a very good idea I hadn't thought of before. Thank you for your contribution! :D
pkrerc 03-29-05, 06:36 PM	well, he seems to be very lawful, and he obeyed teh laws of that sacred place... so he's definitely lawful, and though he did stop that girl from being raped, hes insane which drives him to commit villainous acts although he doesn't believe he is evil. unless u make him scitsophrenic w/ two alignments because of two personalities, hes pretty much lawful neutral i think. Yes, I will seriously consider making him schizo, this would allow for a shocking twist, and also make sense since he is clearly insane, and pretty much shows two sides of himself. BTW, Are there any rules for shizophrenia (sp?) in DnD?
Vharuck 03-29-05, 06:49 PM	It's multiple personality disorder. If somebody has multiple personalities, he has multiple personality disorder. Schizophrenia is when one suffers from delusions and/or hallucinations. However, this guy does have schizophrenia. He is under the delusion that he is a king, that the other king is horrible, and that his men are loyal. He is LE. He follows certain rules, but craves things out of jealousy, greed, and hatred.
Law S 03-29-05, 07:03 PM	Oh, for the days of tendencies... Anyway.. Morality does not have to be an absolute, and alignment just governs what direction someone is most likely going to lean... But not always. And, actually, he doesn't sound lawful in the slightest; he sounds delusional. As you said, he "thinks" this way and "sees" that way, oblivious to the reality of it all. His adherence to a code can just be a further example of him buying into and justifying his delusion... He's most definitely chaotic neutral, because he has such a desperate, selfish need for things to be what he wants, or needs them to be, that he views reality in that way. (While being Chaotic Neutral doesn't make you insane, the reverse is generally true.) Mechanically, he's Chaotic Neutral, and suffers appropriately if he's hit with an effect keying off of that... But that doesn't mean he can't act Lawful Neutral, or even Lawful Good or Evil... It's just an act, even if he doesn't even realize it. Alignment goes more to the root of someone's actions, not their outward expression of them. An evil farmer isn't likely to go on a rampage, pillaging a competing farm and burning its crops (though he might if desparate enough); and he may even be seen as the kindest man around ("Ol' Mr. McDonald, he's the kindest soul I ever knew, even if he is a little stern"), but this is only because he knows how he's supposed to act, regardless of how he thinks or feels. Of course, that's getting into the whole "Evil" versus "Stupid Evil" realm, and that's tangental... Anyway, there are some other, more interesting suggestions... I do like characters with ambiguity... Though I would also consider the schizophrenic to ultimately be CN at the core, regardless of how his other personalities acted, they're just facets of the whole, unless your cosmology handles fractured identities as multi-soul inhabitations.
pkrerc 03-29-05, 07:51 PM	Well, Shizo, MPD, I am not a doctor, so I don't know the difference between them. "He is LE. He follows certain rules, but craves things out of jealousy, greed, and hatred." That was in fact my reasoning behind initially giving him a LE alignment. On the other hand, he could also be called CN, because basically, a chaotic character does what he feels like (but not necessarily with intent to harm others) sometimes he acts one way (LE for example) and other times he acts completely differently (LG for example), so he may be chaotic. In his mind, he is fighting an evil foe, but he still wants to be king out of selfishness, so that could make him neutral. Thank you for giving me more things to think about :)
Sildatorak 03-29-05, 09:10 PM	Motivated by greed and jealousy, he attempted to usurp the king's throne, but when the king became alerted to the man's intentions, he was forced to hide and lost everything he owned. This could be anything but good or lawful neutral depending on his method of usurpation. He orders his thugs to refer to him as "king" or "magesty". He commands his men through fear, though he may not even realize it. That sounds LE or CE depending on what sort of fear he is using. If he has a strict system in place for dealing with dissent that they fear, LE. If it is fear that his whims will turn against them, CE. he believes the king he is fighting against is a tyrannical usurper, a despot who is hated by all in his kingdom, however the king is in fact a just and benevolent ruler who is quite beloved. That is probably CN bordering on CG. When he took over a village and he caught one of his men attempting to rape a girl, he smashed the man's face in with his gauntletted fist, (and proceeded to tell the girl that she and her town were in "good hands") and when the surviving king's soldiers attempted to hide inside a church, he obeyed the sanctuary laws and did not go inside and kill them (his lieutennant did, however, order the men to brick up the doors and windows, trapping the poor people inside-- but that is another story), and there are a few other somewhat good acts. I think that there are definite aspects of CG in the act of smashing his own man, it seems almost like vigallantism. The church bit is probably LN, assuming he didn't know of his lieutennant's actions. If he knew, then LE. Also, he isn't very well liked even among his men, for obvious reasons. They only follow him for pretty much 3 reasons 1) he is a good general and excellent fighter 2) they will get brutally beaten if they disobey him 3) he is the only one who has a (at least somewhat) legal claim to the throne, and if he does become king, then there will be good stuff in it for them 1) not really aligned 2) chaotic evil or lawful evil depending on the system to enforce it 3) not really aligned Anyways, what alignment would you think that he is? Going through my comments I would suggest chaotic neutral with definite evil tendencies. It seems that the only thing keeping his men in line is his ability to kick ass and he generally acts in his whatever is his own best interest at the moment, which is sometimes a random act of mercy. Those few acts of mercy are all that is keeping me from putting him solidly in the Evil column. In his continued battle for the throne he may have the definite chance of slipping solidly into evil, though. As other posters have suggested, having the lieutenant actively exploiting Fellfrost's insanity is a pretty good idea. I'd make the lieutenant LE as that sort of manipulation often takes quite a lot of patience, long range planning, and screwing around within the system.
Vharuck 03-29-05, 09:23 PM	Ok, your guy is suffering from what seems to be schizophrenic and have a mood disorder (if not bipolar). Here's the thing: chaos does not equal madness. Seriously. Madness is not covered within the realms of good/evil and law/chaos. It's a mental illness and not applicable. These people tend to break the alignment system. Which is why I don't allow them in my game (as PCs).
CzarGarrett 03-30-05, 09:19 AM	Overall, I'd stick with CN. With CN, you can mechanically have occasional acts of both good and evil, and rarely have a bit of a lawful twist. Going with the aforementioned idea, a CN 'BBEG' that the PCs defeat, only to have a new BBEG in the form of the CE or so Lieutenant arise from the ashes.
pkrerc 03-30-05, 12:09 PM	Thanks for all your input! The lieutennant is definitely CE and does make orders behind the BBEG's back. He could easily be made into the real BBEG. :D Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention the most important thing: He believes the kingdom to be rightfully his, so he defends it as if it were his, under his command, his soldiers crush groups of gnolls, orcs and goblins as well as other (smaller) groups of bandits, of course this is all a paltry good because his men cause more evil then they prevent.