Alignment Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
l3th4l
11-04-07, 08:14 AM Hi, I have a problem with my players' alignment choices. One has created a paladin (LG, obviously) and the other, a rogue (Chaotic Something.) I feel almost certain that the rogue will want to cause trouble by stealing from the populace, breaking and entering etc. I don't see how they could work together, because if the paladin turned a blind eye, he would Fall, and if he didn't the rogue would be killed/injured and the game wouldn't be enjoyable. I can't get rid of alignement because that would make the Paladin nothing more than an over powered fighter. Thanks in advance.
CeilingNinja
11-04-07, 08:27 AM Chaotic Neutral?

Yeah - let your rogue know that Chaotic Neutral does not mean stealing and breaking and entering are acceptable behavior. No, taking something that doesn't belong to you is an evil action. Your rogue player is trying to pass acting like an idiot as Chaotic Neutral actions.

Chaotic Neutral means not caring about the law, but not doing wholly good or wholly evil, balancing out the world through lawless actions.
Rood_Inverse
11-04-07, 08:27 AM Sit both players down. Separately or together. Explain your concerns. See who's willing to compromise.

Otherwise... Just run as-is and let the chips fall as they may.
WayneTheGame
11-04-07, 08:48 AM Sit both players down. Separately or together. Explain your concerns. See who's willing to compromise.

Otherwise... Just run as-is and let the chips fall as they may.

Excellent advice. I 100% agree!
l3th4l
11-04-07, 11:12 AM Thanks for all your help, I think I'll use CeilingNinja's advice about Chaotic Neutral and just play it out from there. Should be fun, although I'm hoping it doesn't turn into an alignment debate.
wizarddog
11-04-07, 04:33 PM Give the rogue an opportunity to use his talents in town. Perhaps the Paladin needs the Rogue to break into a Lords manor in order to get a secret document that will lead them to an evil temple. Of course the rogue will take any valuables he might feel compensates him for his efforts or make it look like a regular robbery.

If the rogue can use their skills in a constructive manner they won't have time or desire to use them in destructive ways.

The Paladin is not a fool, he will see the usefulness of the rogue to get into places he cannot and should have no problem thwarting the forces of evil. But he would not tolerate such expertise used on the innocent or authority that is just. ;)
Third_Level_Bomb
11-04-07, 08:36 PM Give the rogue an opportunity to use his talents in town. Perhaps the Paladin needs the Rogue to break into a Lords manor in order to get a secret document that will lead them to an evil temple. Of course the rogue will take any valuables he might feel compensates him for his efforts or make it look like a regular robbery.

If the rogue can use their skills in a constructive manner they won't have time or desire to use them in destructive ways.

The Paladin is not a fool, he will see the usefulness of the rogue to get into places he cannot and should have no problem thwarting the forces of evil. But he would not tolerate such expertise used on the innocent or authority that is just. ;)

Agreed. The paladins code is very vague, and it never specifically says that a paladin cannot associate with shady figures.

However, I would say a good idea is to use the Roy Greenhilt excuse.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html
Voran
11-04-07, 10:47 PM However, should the Rogue start drifting into the "But my CN alignment means I can rob the party and screw around with the paladin while he sleeps!" ...well...that's going to need another talking to, with a bit more severe consequences.
Sinfire Titan
11-04-07, 11:11 PM However, should the Rogue start drifting into the "But my CN alignment means I can rob the party and screw around with the paladin while he sleeps!" ...well...that's going to need another talking to, with a bit more severe consequences.

As long as the "screwing around" part involves a little bit of burnt charcoal to mark on his face, I don't see it being much of a problem.
Guardian1
11-04-07, 11:25 PM Agreed. The paladins code is very vague, and it never specifically says that a paladin cannot associate with shady figures.

However, I would say a good idea is to use the Roy Greenhilt excuse.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

Yes, using the Roy Greenhilt excuse would be a good idea. However, in this case, it wouldn't be an excuse. That is the most likely reason a paladin would journey with such a character. Heck, in my DM's old FR campaign, my DM tried to make it possible for my paladin to redeem Scyulla Darkhope, a heroic deed in of itself considering what she is.
Hippokrene
11-04-07, 11:40 PM Chaotic Neutral?

Yeah - let your rogue know that Chaotic Neutral does not mean stealing and breaking and entering are acceptable behavior. No, taking something that doesn't belong to you is an evil action. Your rogue player is trying to pass acting like an idiot as Chaotic Neutral actions.

Chaotic Neutral means not caring about the law, but not doing wholly good or wholly evil, balancing out the world through lawless actions.

Wrong.

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does *not* make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil.
CeilingNinja
11-05-07, 07:14 AM Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does *not* make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil.

You're taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone you don't have any knowledge of which might be of incredible importance to said person, part of their livelihood, a family heirloom, something that reminds them of their dead husband/father/son/pet dog.

I'm sorry, that's evil. The only good stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone who it doesn't belong to and returning it to the person to whom it originally belonged.

Overblown thievery is a blatantly criminal and evil act.
BW0222
11-05-07, 11:22 AM l3th4l,

CeilingNinja has the idea.

Chaotic neutral does not mean stupid. If the person is selfish and does not care about laws, others, etc. that doesn't mean he is so stupid that he doesn't realize that others do and the likely concequences of his actions will have on him. If he is caught stealing, then he ends up in jail or dead. Thus, stealing may not be the best choice of actions.

He can also figure out that the advantages of working with the party are likely far greater than any benefit from minor thievery or general stupidity. Even if he doesn't give a rat's ass about the other PCs... the party provides him with wealth, adventure, protection, access to other groups, information for further adventuring, the ability to defeat folks he couldn't, etc. Is it really more advantageous to risk being kicked out of the party, having the paladin turn you in to the authorities, have them refuse to aid you, etc. over some pick-pocketting, being caught carrying stolen goods, loud mouthing some lord, etc. The reputation of the party, the good-will of its members, access to goods and services of others, etc. all have value.

The rogue should have enough wisdom to realize that such things aren't worth two bit rewards. The character should be smart enough to do a cost-beneft analysis.

It is up to the player to come up with player backgrounds, motivations, logic, etc. which allow them to play an alignment in a cooperative manor. Likewise, the paladin doesn't have to make his code, background, motivations, logic, etc. so strict that he can't accept the rogue stealing a key from an evil henchman, picking the lock in the evil goblin fortress, etc.

Hippokrene,

Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does *not* make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil.

Stealing is neither good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. The purpose of why someone is stealing (or any other action) determines one's alignment.

A plain indian who steals an enemies horse for the honor of his warriors/tribe so that the chief can use it to trade for his wife is likely lawful neutral or possibly even lawful good. Someone who steals tax money from a corrupt lord and gives it to the rebel army might be neutral good. Someone who steals money from a merchant so that he use it to raise more undead to kill people might be neutral evil. Someone who pick pockets a tavern patrol making rude comments about the bard so that he gets kicked out when he can't pay might be chaotic good. Someone who beats up some old lady in the alley to get some drinking money is likely chaotic evil. Someone who takes money from a from the church offering dish to buy food for his family might be neutral. Someone who robs travellers in order to buy a magic sword for himself is likely chaotic neutral. A crime boss who steals a golden statue in order to plant it on the captain of the guard so that he will be replaced with a junior officer who works for him is likely lawful neutral.

Lots of examples of non-chaotic stealing. Just have a non-chaotic purpose to why you are stealing.
Third_Level_Bomb
11-05-07, 04:01 PM You're taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone you don't have any knowledge of which might be of incredible importance to said person, part of their livelihood, a family heirloom, something that reminds them of their dead husband/father/son/pet dog.

I'm sorry, that's evil. The only good stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone who it doesn't belong to and returning it to the person to whom it originally belonged.

Overblown thievery is a blatantly criminal and evil act.

That's like saying that because a cleric of eruthnyl may have family left alive who still remember and love him, it is an evil act to kill him. Stealing is no more evil than killing or drinking, the reason why you kill/steal/drink is what makes you Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
l3th4l 11-04-07, 08:14 AM	Hi, I have a problem with my players' alignment choices. One has created a paladin (LG, obviously) and the other, a rogue (Chaotic Something.) I feel almost certain that the rogue will want to cause trouble by stealing from the populace, breaking and entering etc. I don't see how they could work together, because if the paladin turned a blind eye, he would Fall, and if he didn't the rogue would be killed/injured and the game wouldn't be enjoyable. I can't get rid of alignement because that would make the Paladin nothing more than an over powered fighter. Thanks in advance.
CeilingNinja 11-04-07, 08:27 AM	Chaotic Neutral? Yeah - let your rogue know that Chaotic Neutral does not mean stealing and breaking and entering are acceptable behavior. No, taking something that doesn't belong to you is an evil action. Your rogue player is trying to pass acting like an idiot as Chaotic Neutral actions. Chaotic Neutral means not caring about the law, but not doing wholly good or wholly evil, balancing out the world through lawless actions.
Rood_Inverse 11-04-07, 08:27 AM	Sit both players down. Separately or together. Explain your concerns. See who's willing to compromise. Otherwise... Just run as-is and let the chips fall as they may.
WayneTheGame 11-04-07, 08:48 AM	Sit both players down. Separately or together. Explain your concerns. See who's willing to compromise. Otherwise... Just run as-is and let the chips fall as they may. Excellent advice. I 100% agree!
l3th4l 11-04-07, 11:12 AM	Thanks for all your help, I think I'll use CeilingNinja's advice about Chaotic Neutral and just play it out from there. Should be fun, although I'm hoping it doesn't turn into an alignment debate.
wizarddog 11-04-07, 04:33 PM	Give the rogue an opportunity to use his talents in town. Perhaps the Paladin needs the Rogue to break into a Lords manor in order to get a secret document that will lead them to an evil temple. Of course the rogue will take any valuables he might feel compensates him for his efforts or make it look like a regular robbery. If the rogue can use their skills in a constructive manner they won't have time or desire to use them in destructive ways. The Paladin is not a fool, he will see the usefulness of the rogue to get into places he cannot and should have no problem thwarting the forces of evil. But he would not tolerate such expertise used on the innocent or authority that is just. ;)
Third_Level_Bomb 11-04-07, 08:36 PM	Give the rogue an opportunity to use his talents in town. Perhaps the Paladin needs the Rogue to break into a Lords manor in order to get a secret document that will lead them to an evil temple. Of course the rogue will take any valuables he might feel compensates him for his efforts or make it look like a regular robbery. If the rogue can use their skills in a constructive manner they won't have time or desire to use them in destructive ways. The Paladin is not a fool, he will see the usefulness of the rogue to get into places he cannot and should have no problem thwarting the forces of evil. But he would not tolerate such expertise used on the innocent or authority that is just. ;) Agreed. The paladins code is very vague, and it never specifically says that a paladin cannot associate with shady figures. However, I would say a good idea is to use the Roy Greenhilt excuse. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html
Voran 11-04-07, 10:47 PM	However, should the Rogue start drifting into the "But my CN alignment means I can rob the party and screw around with the paladin while he sleeps!" ...well...that's going to need another talking to, with a bit more severe consequences.
Sinfire Titan 11-04-07, 11:11 PM	However, should the Rogue start drifting into the "But my CN alignment means I can rob the party and screw around with the paladin while he sleeps!" ...well...that's going to need another talking to, with a bit more severe consequences. As long as the "screwing around" part involves a little bit of burnt charcoal to mark on his face, I don't see it being much of a problem.
Guardian1 11-04-07, 11:25 PM	Agreed. The paladins code is very vague, and it never specifically says that a paladin cannot associate with shady figures. However, I would say a good idea is to use the Roy Greenhilt excuse. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html Yes, using the Roy Greenhilt excuse would be a good idea. However, in this case, it wouldn't be an excuse. That is the most likely reason a paladin would journey with such a character. Heck, in my DM's old FR campaign, my DM tried to make it possible for my paladin to redeem Scyulla Darkhope, a heroic deed in of itself considering what she is.
Hippokrene 11-04-07, 11:40 PM	Chaotic Neutral? Yeah - let your rogue know that Chaotic Neutral does not mean stealing and breaking and entering are acceptable behavior. No, taking something that doesn't belong to you is an evil action. Your rogue player is trying to pass acting like an idiot as Chaotic Neutral actions. Chaotic Neutral means not caring about the law, but not doing wholly good or wholly evil, balancing out the world through lawless actions. Wrong. Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit. "Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does not make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil.
CeilingNinja 11-05-07, 07:14 AM	Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does not make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil. You're taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone you don't have any knowledge of which might be of incredible importance to said person, part of their livelihood, a family heirloom, something that reminds them of their dead husband/father/son/pet dog. I'm sorry, that's evil. The only good stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone who it doesn't belong to and returning it to the person to whom it originally belonged. Overblown thievery is a blatantly criminal and evil act.
BW0222 11-05-07, 11:22 AM	l3th4l, CeilingNinja has the idea. Chaotic neutral does not mean stupid. If the person is selfish and does not care about laws, others, etc. that doesn't mean he is so stupid that he doesn't realize that others do and the likely concequences of his actions will have on him. If he is caught stealing, then he ends up in jail or dead. Thus, stealing may not be the best choice of actions. He can also figure out that the advantages of working with the party are likely far greater than any benefit from minor thievery or general stupidity. Even if he doesn't give a rat's ass about the other PCs... the party provides him with wealth, adventure, protection, access to other groups, information for further adventuring, the ability to defeat folks he couldn't, etc. Is it really more advantageous to risk being kicked out of the party, having the paladin turn you in to the authorities, have them refuse to aid you, etc. over some pick-pocketting, being caught carrying stolen goods, loud mouthing some lord, etc. The reputation of the party, the good-will of its members, access to goods and services of others, etc. all have value. The rogue should have enough wisdom to realize that such things aren't worth two bit rewards. The character should be smart enough to do a cost-beneft analysis. It is up to the player to come up with player backgrounds, motivations, logic, etc. which allow them to play an alignment in a cooperative manor. Likewise, the paladin doesn't have to make his code, background, motivations, logic, etc. so strict that he can't accept the rogue stealing a key from an evil henchman, picking the lock in the evil goblin fortress, etc. Hippokrene, Unless you're butchering people in their sleep while robbing them, stealing is a neutral action. Being a thief does not make you evil. It makes you chaotic, but not evil. Stealing is neither good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. The purpose of why someone is stealing (or any other action) determines one's alignment. A plain indian who steals an enemies horse for the honor of his warriors/tribe so that the chief can use it to trade for his wife is likely lawful neutral or possibly even lawful good. Someone who steals tax money from a corrupt lord and gives it to the rebel army might be neutral good. Someone who steals money from a merchant so that he use it to raise more undead to kill people might be neutral evil. Someone who pick pockets a tavern patrol making rude comments about the bard so that he gets kicked out when he can't pay might be chaotic good. Someone who beats up some old lady in the alley to get some drinking money is likely chaotic evil. Someone who takes money from a from the church offering dish to buy food for his family might be neutral. Someone who robs travellers in order to buy a magic sword for himself is likely chaotic neutral. A crime boss who steals a golden statue in order to plant it on the captain of the guard so that he will be replaced with a junior officer who works for him is likely lawful neutral. Lots of examples of non-chaotic stealing. Just have a non-chaotic purpose to why you are stealing.
Third_Level_Bomb 11-05-07, 04:01 PM	You're taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone you don't have any knowledge of which might be of incredible importance to said person, part of their livelihood, a family heirloom, something that reminds them of their dead husband/father/son/pet dog. I'm sorry, that's evil. The only good stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you from someone who it doesn't belong to and returning it to the person to whom it originally belonged. Overblown thievery is a blatantly criminal and evil act. That's like saying that because a cleric of eruthnyl may have family left alive who still remember and love him, it is an evil act to kill him. Stealing is no more evil than killing or drinking, the reason why you kill/steal/drink is what makes you Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic.