Alignment trouble/ DMlog [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment trouble/ DMlog [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DMextreme
03-23-08, 10:18 PM Okay im having the most typical alignment trouble (CN to CE) before i can really ask help i'll have to summarize the adventure:

The character was a ridiculously loaded halfling ranger (weapon finesse +5 dex modifier at lv1) Fist thing he does is search up some rumors on treasure finding out theres a magic item in the forest. Then (key part) he assassinates a person he knows has a lot of money from seeing him in the store for pure greed. He leaves for the forest fights some orcs and wolves (enemies to each other as well) and continues on.

He then finds a forestry encampment that is attacked by bugbears staying hidden in the bushes the PC doesn't even lift a finger to help then loots the campsite after there gone. The PC continued on and found a wilderness tavern and met a Drow warrior there who was looking for the same treasure after a good amount of searching they find an old abondaned treasure trove the Drow (who i already planned on making her betray the PC) moves forward on the excuse for traps but really loads he hand crossbow.

(next evil part) The PC stabs the Drow in the back (literally) not yet knowing she was betraying him anyways character with Drow dead goes in avoids a trap, kills some dire rats and makes of with the treasure.

(another evil part) When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home. Next morning i develop the story on the war the towns in with the Lizardmen and he meets the other PC, an elf bard (who has also done his own solo adventure.) Then the lizardmen ambassador comes in to collect tribute and PC number 1 (hiding in a bush) yells an insult at him for fun. The lizardmen responds by grabbing a little girl and holding his claw up to her neck and demanding the insulter step forward or she dies.

PC2 loads his crossbow just in case well PC 1 (evil) shoots his longbow at the lizardman fully knowing that he might hit the little girl. The arrow misses and the lizardmen retorts by throwing her to the ground and raising his club. In the end the little girl would of had her head bashed in if PC2 did not fire his crossbow once he dropped her.

I speak with the PC after the game (he is my brother) and tell him hes leaning toward chaotic evil my bro responds by saying that those things were chaotic (which in a lesser quantity some of them could have been) i'm a bit confused because his character is 1. extremely powerful and 2 evil to some amount im not sure how to enforce it better so could someone please give me advice?
Grod_The_Giant
03-23-08, 10:33 PM Ok. First off, ask to see his character sheet and see if he's cheating. Say it nicely, though (for example, you need to look at some of his skills to gauge DCs for the next adventure). Check it over to make sure he didn't make some mistake/blatently cheat. Post it here if you're not sure.
Secondly, tell him flat out "your alignment is now NE. No, don't argue. I'm the DM, I decide how the alignment works." But really, if the other players don't have a problem with his being evil, it's not that big an issue. If it's a problem for YOU, talk to him out of the game about it. Maybe get your parents involved, but be careful not to seem whiny or babyish.
Incubusion
03-23-08, 10:33 PM Those actions weren't the definition of chaotic nor were they only chaotic in nature. The chaotic alignment values freedom and doing things in an impulse, on what feels right. Chaos may not always think first, and certainly views structured society and law secondary to personal freedom, but chaotic doesn't mean evil.

While the last action is more of questionable morality than evil, the other two are genuinely evil. He killed some one out of greed. He didn't just break the law, he killed them out of pure malevolent desire for progressing the self at the cost of some one else. If that was the definition of chaotic, then there wouldn't be a single chaotic good hero.

Remember, evil is the advancing of the self at the cost of another, even if the advancing of the self in that situation is just advancing their pleasures. What he did was chaotic as it broke numerous laws and was on a whim, yes, but it was to a much greater extent EVIL.

Edit: It also sounds like he's going the route of chaotic stupid. Remind him that if he wants to play evil it's fine, but evil people are very good at planning usually. Otherwise they end up very dead. The mass murderer is rarely a mass murderer for long. The evil schemer that waits for the moment and only kills when it is useful becomes the BBEG.
EscherEnigma
03-23-08, 10:42 PM ...he assassinates a person he knows has a lot of money ... for pure greed.
Killing for greed, definitely evil. Maybe chaotic, but definitely evil.

The PC stabs the Drow in the back ...
Betrays an "ally" without provocation or warning. Okay, the guy was going to do the same to him, but still. Betraying an evil person doesn't make it 'ok'.

When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home.
Another instance of evil.

Then the lizardmen ambassador comes in to collect tribute and PC number 1 (hiding in a bush) yells an insult at him for fun. The lizardmen responds by grabbing a little girl and holding his claw up to her neck and demanding the insulter step forward or she dies.
Well, at least he's maintaining the status quo of being chaotic to boot. Not necessarily evil, but definitely chaotic, and most likely stupid if his character knew anything about the temperament of these particular lizardmen.

Next, we have that hostage situation. Okay, those are kinda difficult. The way he responded wasn't partiuclarly any alignment except that it definitely wasn't lawful.

So... based just on what you've said, heck yeah, he's chaotic evil. Why is this even a question? The character kills and betrays for greed, he bullies for convenience, and takes no action that clearly falls into good. Does he have a reason for why he says that the character isn't CE, or is he just saying he isn't?
Enigmis
03-23-08, 11:06 PM Definitely CE, betraying people helping you...killing someone just to take their stuff...Definitely an Evil in there somewhere.
Dunsel
03-24-08, 12:18 PM Previous posts have effectively broken down evil and chaotic so I will go a different route.
You have to ask yourself the following questions:
1) Do I allow evil PCs in my campaign?
2) You are the DM, why didn't you just tell the player his actions were evil and that is that? Right, he is your brother. That brings me to the next question.
3) Is your brother younger than you?
4) Are you trying to protect him from running an evil PC?
5) Are you upset/surprised he is running an evil PC?
6) Does the fact that he is your brother going to be a problem with him respecting your position as DM?

Siblings can sometimes be the hardest of players to DM. They get angry and then drag up other things in your life to try and win instead of sticking with the facts.

If you do not allow evil, tell him he may atone by going to a cleric and right the wrongs he committed. A) He must give all the treasure he obtained after killing the Drow to this temple. B) He must apologize to the family and offer his services for a month. He must pay them proper room and board for the time spent in their house. The services shall not be paid for nor will there be any treasure obtained while in their service. The PC may not leave the company of the family for any reason unless their lives or his are in jeopardy. Such as an orc attack. C) He must repeat this for the family of the little girl for two months!

He may not adventure or obtain wealth during this time of pennance. He may not participate in debauchery (gambling, wenching, etc.) until his time of service to both families is complete. If he completes these tasks, he will not become evil. If he fails, (insert your punishment here). A good punishment is death by hanging. The cleric may also "mark" him so that he will never be able to obtain help, quests, money etc. from any good temple ever again. The cleric will hunt him down to mark him if he just flees.

Too harsh, maybe. It depends upon the player and his maturity level. It also depends upon your abilities as a DM to dole out the necessary in game punishments for in game atrocities.

Of course, if you allow evil PCs, just let it ride. ;)
Rictras_Shard
03-24-08, 12:58 PM (another evil part) When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home. Next morning i develop the story

Others have answered nicely on the alignment issue. What I'm wondering is why didn't the family do something while he was sleeping? They could have escaped and alerted the authorities, or, if more ruthless, simply slit his throat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMextreme 03-23-08, 10:18 PM	Okay im having the most typical alignment trouble (CN to CE) before i can really ask help i'll have to summarize the adventure: The character was a ridiculously loaded halfling ranger (weapon finesse +5 dex modifier at lv1) Fist thing he does is search up some rumors on treasure finding out theres a magic item in the forest. Then (key part) he assassinates a person he knows has a lot of money from seeing him in the store for pure greed. He leaves for the forest fights some orcs and wolves (enemies to each other as well) and continues on. He then finds a forestry encampment that is attacked by bugbears staying hidden in the bushes the PC doesn't even lift a finger to help then loots the campsite after there gone. The PC continued on and found a wilderness tavern and met a Drow warrior there who was looking for the same treasure after a good amount of searching they find an old abondaned treasure trove the Drow (who i already planned on making her betray the PC) moves forward on the excuse for traps but really loads he hand crossbow. (next evil part) The PC stabs the Drow in the back (literally) not yet knowing she was betraying him anyways character with Drow dead goes in avoids a trap, kills some dire rats and makes of with the treasure. (another evil part) When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home. Next morning i develop the story on the war the towns in with the Lizardmen and he meets the other PC, an elf bard (who has also done his own solo adventure.) Then the lizardmen ambassador comes in to collect tribute and PC number 1 (hiding in a bush) yells an insult at him for fun. The lizardmen responds by grabbing a little girl and holding his claw up to her neck and demanding the insulter step forward or she dies. PC2 loads his crossbow just in case well PC 1 (evil) shoots his longbow at the lizardman fully knowing that he might hit the little girl. The arrow misses and the lizardmen retorts by throwing her to the ground and raising his club. In the end the little girl would of had her head bashed in if PC2 did not fire his crossbow once he dropped her. I speak with the PC after the game (he is my brother) and tell him hes leaning toward chaotic evil my bro responds by saying that those things were chaotic (which in a lesser quantity some of them could have been) i'm a bit confused because his character is 1. extremely powerful and 2 evil to some amount im not sure how to enforce it better so could someone please give me advice?
Grod_The_Giant 03-23-08, 10:33 PM	Ok. First off, ask to see his character sheet and see if he's cheating. Say it nicely, though (for example, you need to look at some of his skills to gauge DCs for the next adventure). Check it over to make sure he didn't make some mistake/blatently cheat. Post it here if you're not sure. Secondly, tell him flat out "your alignment is now NE. No, don't argue. I'm the DM, I decide how the alignment works." But really, if the other players don't have a problem with his being evil, it's not that big an issue. If it's a problem for YOU, talk to him out of the game about it. Maybe get your parents involved, but be careful not to seem whiny or babyish.
Incubusion 03-23-08, 10:33 PM	Those actions weren't the definition of chaotic nor were they only chaotic in nature. The chaotic alignment values freedom and doing things in an impulse, on what feels right. Chaos may not always think first, and certainly views structured society and law secondary to personal freedom, but chaotic doesn't mean evil. While the last action is more of questionable morality than evil, the other two are genuinely evil. He killed some one out of greed. He didn't just break the law, he killed them out of pure malevolent desire for progressing the self at the cost of some one else. If that was the definition of chaotic, then there wouldn't be a single chaotic good hero. Remember, evil is the advancing of the self at the cost of another, even if the advancing of the self in that situation is just advancing their pleasures. What he did was chaotic as it broke numerous laws and was on a whim, yes, but it was to a much greater extent EVIL. Edit: It also sounds like he's going the route of chaotic stupid. Remind him that if he wants to play evil it's fine, but evil people are very good at planning usually. Otherwise they end up very dead. The mass murderer is rarely a mass murderer for long. The evil schemer that waits for the moment and only kills when it is useful becomes the BBEG.
EscherEnigma 03-23-08, 10:42 PM	...he assassinates a person he knows has a lot of money ... for pure greed. Killing for greed, definitely evil. Maybe chaotic, but definitely evil. The PC stabs the Drow in the back ... Betrays an "ally" without provocation or warning. Okay, the guy was going to do the same to him, but still. Betraying an evil person doesn't make it 'ok'. When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home. Another instance of evil. Then the lizardmen ambassador comes in to collect tribute and PC number 1 (hiding in a bush) yells an insult at him for fun. The lizardmen responds by grabbing a little girl and holding his claw up to her neck and demanding the insulter step forward or she dies. Well, at least he's maintaining the status quo of being chaotic to boot. Not necessarily evil, but definitely chaotic, and most likely stupid if his character knew anything about the temperament of these particular lizardmen. Next, we have that hostage situation. Okay, those are kinda difficult. The way he responded wasn't partiuclarly any alignment except that it definitely wasn't lawful. So... based just on what you've said, heck yeah, he's chaotic evil. Why is this even a question? The character kills and betrays for greed, he bullies for convenience, and takes no action that clearly falls into good. Does he have a reason for why he says that the character isn't CE, or is he just saying he isn't?
Enigmis 03-23-08, 11:06 PM	Definitely CE, betraying people helping you...killing someone just to take their stuff...Definitely an Evil in there somewhere.
Dunsel 03-24-08, 12:18 PM	Previous posts have effectively broken down evil and chaotic so I will go a different route. You have to ask yourself the following questions: 1) Do I allow evil PCs in my campaign? 2) You are the DM, why didn't you just tell the player his actions were evil and that is that? Right, he is your brother. That brings me to the next question. 3) Is your brother younger than you? 4) Are you trying to protect him from running an evil PC? 5) Are you upset/surprised he is running an evil PC? 6) Does the fact that he is your brother going to be a problem with him respecting your position as DM? Siblings can sometimes be the hardest of players to DM. They get angry and then drag up other things in your life to try and win instead of sticking with the facts. If you do not allow evil, tell him he may atone by going to a cleric and right the wrongs he committed. A) He must give all the treasure he obtained after killing the Drow to this temple. B) He must apologize to the family and offer his services for a month. He must pay them proper room and board for the time spent in their house. The services shall not be paid for nor will there be any treasure obtained while in their service. The PC may not leave the company of the family for any reason unless their lives or his are in jeopardy. Such as an orc attack. C) He must repeat this for the family of the little girl for two months! He may not adventure or obtain wealth during this time of pennance. He may not participate in debauchery (gambling, wenching, etc.) until his time of service to both families is complete. If he completes these tasks, he will not become evil. If he fails, (insert your punishment here). A good punishment is death by hanging. The cleric may also "mark" him so that he will never be able to obtain help, quests, money etc. from any good temple ever again. The cleric will hunt him down to mark him if he just flees. Too harsh, maybe. It depends upon the player and his maturity level. It also depends upon your abilities as a DM to dole out the necessary in game punishments for in game atrocities. Of course, if you allow evil PCs, just let it ride. ;)
Rictras_Shard 03-24-08, 12:58 PM	(another evil part) When the PC returns to town he threatens a family into giving him free room at there home. Next morning i develop the story Others have answered nicely on the alignment issue. What I'm wondering is why didn't the family do something while he was sleeping? They could have escaped and alerted the authorities, or, if more ruthless, simply slit his throat.