Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FitalonyLion 09-20-06, 11:04 AM	I have a Paladin of Torm playing in my campaign. They are looking for someone who can work void magic to help them into an evil Temple. They enter the small frontier town of Starmantle and question around and locate an old baker lady. This sweet old baker lady is secretly a worshipper of Shar. They get her help and then after they deal with the temple the paladin insists on going back to town to deal with her. In full view of the public they agrue over how to deal with her while there are childern present in front of the bakery. She continues pretending to be a sweet old lady. Once she is subdued (she never leaves character of a sweet old lady they just attack her leaving her unconscious) the Paladin of Torm, instead of turning her over to authorities or otherwise proving who and what she really is. Instead he draws his Holy Avenger and actually says"I SACRIFICEyou in the name of Torm!" :eek: I stared at him dumbfounded for a few minutes then he looked around and saw all the townsfolk freak out cause some stranger just murdered the sweet old baker lady. He then FLED the scene without even trying to explain. Later he TURNED himself in and then BROKE out of prison. Long story short Starmantle now loathes the followers of Torm the True in my campaign. I still don't know what to do with Him.:confused:
RobbyPants 09-20-06, 11:14 AM	I would say he loses all class abilities untul he Attones for that!!! That's an attrocity for any good-aligned character (let alone a Paladin!). Sacrificing an intelligent creature to a diety is an evil act. Even if it weren't a "sacrifice", killing a helpless foe is out of line with a Paladin's code of conduct. I'd say at very least, make him lawful neutral (if not evil), and/or force him to Attone for it, lest he become a fighter without the bonus feats!
FitalonyLion 09-20-06, 11:15 AM	The other DM in our group had a similar issue on a grander scale. The party was chasing an Evil Rashemen witch. They captured her and subdued her binding her hands and feet and gagging her. They were supposed to bring her back alive to face judgement. The party was afraid to try and transport her because a group of monster races she was allied with was ranging around looking for them so the party left her in the ever vigilant charge of a PALADIN OF TYR. He shocked the DM by stating "Ok once we're alone I take my gauntleted fist and punch her... called shot to the face." While she is out he draggs her to a cave and removes his armor then stripps her. He proceeds for the next half hour to descriptively rape, sodomize, and torture her unto death to the shock and horror of the group. Finally the DM stopps him and pulls him aside and asks him what the #$@* he thinks hes doing. The player responds "Shes evil and I am good. If I do and evil thing to an evil person its good!" The DM stripped his paladin of all his powers. gave him many different blights and curses to punish him for his heinous crime. The player refused to play the character anymore. The DM would not let him play any other. He eventually left the group. Has anyone else experienced such freakish issues over players playing adversely to their alignment? Does anyone know how to clear up such confusion so this stuff doesn't happen anymore in my groups?
wrecan 09-20-06, 11:21 AM	Oh, yea. Another paladin falls thread. Here's how you deal with these issues in the future. If anybody decides to create a character with an alignment restriction, and this includes bards, barbarians, druids, clerics and monks, as well as paladins, you must talk to them before play begins to make sure that you and he are on the same page as to what his ethical code of behavior would forbid and permit. That way there are no recriminations later and if the two of you disagree, it's easy enough to craft characters for whom alignment is no restriction on class abilities. Here's the golden rule on alignment: http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1/Wrecan/alignment.jpg
Krompt 09-20-06, 11:31 AM	Another good idea for Paladins is for their alignment to match their Deity!!!, House Rule it so if your a Paladin of..*draws a name out of hat* Wee Jas, Your Alignment Must be Lawful Neutral, or a Paladin of Erythnul your Chaotic Evil. It sorts so much paladin crap out, and if your gonna say something about what would you do about their Good Aligned Abilities as the Chaotic Evil Paladin of Erythnul, look at the Blackguard and take stuff from them (SOMETHINGS from them).
Zersch 09-20-06, 11:36 AM	Wow! Alot going on there with that player. Well, walking into the village is about the only I read that would allow him to keep his paladinhood. Mistakes in order of appearance here... 1) Seeking out void magic 2) Finding and using void magic 3) Conspiring with a worshipper of Shar 4) Sacrificing the old woman 5) Fleeing the scene 6) Breaking out of jail I could be missing a few here... Okay, losing his paladin abilities should be obvious with almost everything he did. Stripped of divine powers can't even really begin to scratch the surface. Let's see, additional consequences... Hunted by followers of Torm Hunted by followers of Shar Hunted by followers of the evil Temple he attacked/raided Hunted by the government attached to the village/region/kindgom, etc In my opinion, it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that either or both Torm or Shar would readily expend the time and energy to send an avatar after him. Also, I would have Kelemvor laugh heartily in face when he was rounded up for judgement after his swift death, and then placed in the wall surrounding his castle for eternal suffering.:D
FitalonyLion 09-20-06, 11:52 AM	giggles...I am inclide to agree
RobbyPants 09-20-06, 12:36 PM	Has anyone else experienced such freakish issues over players playing adversely to their alignment? Does anyone know how to clear up such confusion so this stuff doesn't happen anymore in my groups? Never anything that severe. I've had a couple of instances of chaotic good people going a little overboard with what they do when robbing people. I wouldn't consider B&E to be that out of line, but killing them because you're caught and you want to get away is pushing it. Or killing people to take their stuff is pretty out of line for a good character, even if chaotic. The first two things happened in my current campaign, and I'm waiting for some other similar infraction before I tell the character to either change her alignment to chaotic neutral, or start behaving in a way more according to her alignment. At least this isn't a class restriction, so there are no real penalties.
Zersch 09-20-06, 04:05 PM	Has anyone else experienced such freakish issues over players playing adversely to their alignment? Does anyone know how to clear up such confusion so this stuff doesn't happen anymore in my groups? I was running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. There was a paladin in the party. They came across a room with three emaciated individuals chained to a wall. Two humans and an orc. It was obvious that were kept as slaves. They were deep, deep into the adventure. The only thing they could think to do at that point was to let them go, but the party wizard questioned whether if that was a good idea. They were well beyond the point of no return. Another party member said, off handedly (he wasn't evil, but definently dark in nature) that it would be a mercy to do them in right there. Again, it was an off-hand comment and everyone knew that he wouldn't do anything. They moved on. Little known to the rest of the party, when they all slept, the paladin went back and killed them. Later on, once the adventure was complete, the party went back to free the slaves and lead them out. I explained that all they found were corpses. They were obviously shocked when I said it looked as if they had been run through. One aghast party member asked who could do this, right before the player playing the paladin blurted out, "No, I beheaded them."
CryoSilver 09-20-06, 05:06 PM	One action should never change someone's alignment. Alignment is based on the character's outlook on life, and short of a nigh-on plane-shaking aligned action, nothing can change that in one action unless explicitly stated to do so.
Conshey 09-20-06, 05:22 PM	One action should never change someone's alignment. Alignment is based on the character's outlook on life, and short of a nigh-on plane-shaking aligned action, nothing can change that in one action unless explicitly stated to do so. i have to agree, but a LG Palidan should at least seek atonement for his actions and accept the punishment for those actions in order to be truely LG. IMO if he doesn't, his aligment changes. To me, aligment is the outlook the particular character has on life, and his actions are proof of that outlook. In a game like DnD it is hard to determine the alignment of a character so the DM has to Prescribe the right alignment based on the actions of that character. it's like how docters find out what disease you have based on your symptoms and then you know. To me, not seeking forgiveness is the first act in a long line that will lead out of LG. I always warn my players when they are behaving 'out of Character' and tell them if they keep it up they will have an alignment shift coming there way. I usually base the actions of one or two sessions to determine alignment. Conshey
CryoSilver 09-20-06, 05:59 PM	Oh, I agree that a Paladin should have to atone for commiting an evil act, but the most consequence a normal Good character should suffer should be guilt.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-20-06, 08:50 PM	Well, this is where the nature of Alignment needs to be discussed. Sadly, alignment can lead to a Red Team/ Blue Team situation: Killing fiends is good, because it is destroying evil. If so, does the means of how you kill them matter? Such a line of reasoning, if absolute, actually exonerates the paladin! Wrecan, is of course, correct, and I believe I've stood with him several times on this issue. Now, most people would know better than this line of reasoning, BUT NOT ALL would. Thus, you need to discuss alignment before the campaign, or warn BEFORE these actions that this would be unacceptable. Should one action change someone's alignment? Definitely--but not completely. It's hard to define someone who did the actions above as LG--but perhaps overall, he's TN at this point. If he keeps doing this, he will go all the way to CE.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-06, 09:00 PM	Forget alignment, Torm is not going to be happy recieving human sacrifice.
Loftower 09-20-06, 10:10 PM	Did you, as DM, apply any pressure before the paladin got to this point? Was their any negative consequence in the middle of this? If the paladin is going to suffer severe consequences for a long list of evil acts, the same should suffer minor consequences for the first or second act. It is not fair for the DM to drop the hammer without some warning. From this story the DM had opportunity to let the player know that the paladin was on the wrong track and did not. The response of the player seems to indicate that the player did not clearly understand that this was not the correct behavior.
Zersch 09-20-06, 10:53 PM	I agree with alot of what has been said. DM's and players SHOULD discuss this beforehand, it is logical, especially if a player has never had a paladin character before. Since this thread is about alignments and paladin infractions of it, allow me to say this. In regards to these infractions, I see them much akin to the alignments, in that they both work off of two axis'. I would say that CryoSilver has hit upon one of them being quantity of infractions, but the other would be severity of the infraction. I would disagree with CryoSilver in that it is concievable for a paladin to commit one, single act that could strip them of divine powers/titles/lands/ranks within the hierarchy of the religion. Or a multitude of minor infractions. One action should never change someone's alignment. More a curiosity than anything. Was this just a general statement, or was it reference to an earlier post?
FitalonyLion 09-21-06, 08:11 AM	this was just one of the worst actions. He was a suckie paladin the entire game. He traveled in the company of four good characters that were becoming corrupted by one evil character and did nothing to stop it, He compromised his beliefs and agreed with the evil player not to try and stop the group from betraying thier guides and killing them so that theyu wouldn't have to pay them. He was generally the worst paladin i have seen in a while. The whole time i tried talking to him and he blew me off cause hes just playing his character
FitalonyLion 09-21-06, 08:16 AM	After a while of him blowing me off cause hes just playing his character he stopped comming to group for five sessions then comes back and is all ****** off and nasty to me because he is at a lower level than the rest of the group. he says "well youre going to have to give me a whole lot of experience so I can keep up with the group." Thank god he finnally left and I haven't seen him since.
Kradlo 09-21-06, 10:20 AM	Wow! Alot going on there with that player. Well, walking into the village is about the only I read that would allow him to keep his paladinhood. Mistakes in order of appearance here... 1) Seeking out void magic 2) Finding and using void magic 3) Conspiring with a worshipper of Shar 4) Sacrificing the old woman 5) Fleeing the scene 6) Breaking out of jail I could be missing a few here... Okay, losing his paladin abilities should be obvious with almost everything he did. Stripped of divine powers can't even really begin to scratch the surface. Let's see, additional consequences... Hunted by followers of Torm Hunted by followers of Shar Hunted by followers of the evil Temple he attacked/raided Hunted by the government attached to the village/region/kindgom, etc In my opinion, it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that either or both Torm or Shar would readily expend the time and energy to send an avatar after him. Also, I would have Kelemvor laugh heartily in face when he was rounded up for judgement after his swift death, and then placed in the wall surrounding his castle for eternal suffering.:D This sums up my opinion as well. There's no question that the character went WAY over the line as far as the laws of ANY civilized land, and as a champion of good. As a GM, I'd not have any qualms about making him face the consequences of his stupidity. I had a group of characters go postal during a convention game years ago. The Massacre at Jenkins Ferry became a legend in my game, and at DunDraCon for years after. The party got caught, tried, and were convicted of mass murder. The lucky ones, who had really good lawyers and gave hefty bribes to the judge, got off with breaking big rocks into little rocks for 40 years. The rest were impaled. When players do stupid things in my game, they soon find out what happens. Don't lose any sleep over this schmuck of a paladin. I'm sure the Temple of Torm is doing its best for damage control, and will be enacting a better screening process for future applicants for paladinhood.
Sereno 09-21-06, 12:55 PM	I haven't DM'd for a paladin in a while, but when I did the player had stated to me that his character's life goal was to build a castle and settle in as the benevolent ruler of a LG nation. Whenever he was contemplating (or had done) something questionable he would have a dream about a castle of while marble and silver sitting on a hill slowly collapsing and turning blackened and burned. I think it's a good idea for the DM to send the paladin "messages from their god" when they start thinking that "ends justify the means" or "she's evil ... I can do whatever I want, and it's good." As the DM. you always have the option of telling your player he's having a vision or a spirit arrives and speaks to him and him alone. Paladins are supposed to be "called" to their profession, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving them a low-key channel of communication to their deity.
wrecan 09-21-06, 01:09 PM	You can also have the paladin order loan a phylactery of faithfulness to junior members to help keep them on the straight and narrow until they have demonstrated an ability to keep up on their own. (Say, 5th level.)
RobbyPants 09-21-06, 01:12 PM	Whenever he was contemplating (or had done) something questionable he would have a dream about a castle of while marble and silver sitting on a hill slowly collapsing and turning blackened and burned. That dream idea is really clever. It gets the idea across pretty well, without having to give him out of game warnings.
Sereno 09-21-06, 01:17 PM	That dream idea is really clever. It gets the idea across pretty well, without having to give him out of game warnings. It always worked in that game, for certain. The look on the players face when I would teld him about the dream/vision was classic. Kind of, "What do you mean?!? ... I didn't do anything?!? ... Ohhhh ... thaaat!" :) The more you can avoid out-of-game warning, the greater the suspension of disbelief. It certainly helped that player to feel that his paladin really *was* close to his deity. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work on a paladin who had no long-term goals. :(
Stormbrand 09-21-06, 04:01 PM	Forget alignment, Torm is not going to be happy recieving human sacrifice. Damn right! My guess is word will reach the Temple of Torm... who will investigate. And be furious. Now they would send a group of paladins and priests after the traitor, in concert with the authorities. Torm's dogma includes protecting and avenging the wronged and bring swift and painful death to traitors. Furthermore, the church will be well-concerned with their good name and will seek to make sure EVERYONE KNOWS how strongly they disapprove of the wretch. And I think alignment can be changed by one action. I can debate that point if people care.
Gottwick 09-21-06, 04:13 PM	Evil or not, that was plainly an unlawful act. That's an ex-paladin, end of story.
Gottwick 09-21-06, 04:16 PM	He proceeds for the next half hour to descriptively ... STOP. This shouldn't have gone on for more than a couple seconds, much less half an hour. The character should be struck dead by his god. Then the player should be ejected from the game and told to leave the premises.
DarkNick 09-21-06, 04:43 PM	I think when you get to this point where a Paladin acts different to how you expect them to and the player does not think they have done anything wrong then it would be a real struggle to turn it around. Some of you have already said it, but setting up a game is really important. As DMs I think we need to work on clarifying what we expect at the start of a campaign, how alignments going to work in practice, and what the consequences will be. Tell them if you expect a good party to refuse to adventure with an evil character, or what you consider acceptable behaviours for a Paladin etc.. This will hopefully save heaps of problems down track. Paladin problems seem to occur too when people want to paladins powers without the behavioural limitations. Discussing these with a player before they make the choice may help.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-06, 04:59 PM	My guess is word will reach the Temple of Torm... who will investigate. This is the Realms. Torm himself will show up with the petitioner that was formerly the cultist. Torm: Excuse me, is this yours? Paladin: Erm... Torm: D-did you sacrifice this to me? Paladin: Well, you see... Torm: Yes or no. Did you SACRIFICE this -- a human being -- to me? Torm? Paladin: Funny story... Torm: What n the nine hells were you thinking?! Seriously. You think HUMAN SACRIFICE is a good idea for a Good Deity. Plus its one of Shar's and you know she's going to be all up in my face about this. Paladin: But she was evil? Torm: Shut your face. We didn't teach you mortals an arbitrary system of moality so you could just use it to choose sides... actually, we did. but that's beside the point. You don't freaking sacrifice people to me!! Paladin: B-but... Torm: I'll be taking those powers about now too. Oh, and you get to give thie petitioner back to Shar. Have fun explaining one of her petitioners becoming a deva to her.
OravennasBrother 09-21-06, 06:40 PM	This paladin certainly seems to have stepped over the line. I'm unfamiliar with Void magic but except for attacking an evil temple he seems to have stepped over the line in just about everything else. What he might have done - go back to the old lady and explain that she has a better future; she was certainly placed in that spot by the gods to help them and now has a place in Torm's paradise if she will just renounce Sharr. Use his charisma, be convincing - it is possible that the group was sent more to SAVE the old lady than to attack the temple - deities have been known to work in mysterious ways. Too many player of paladins forget the whole redemption angle for them "Smite makes Right"
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 05:21 AM	STOP. This shouldn't have gone on for more than a couple seconds, much less half an hour. The character should be struck dead by his god. Then the player should be ejected from the game and told to leave the premises. I'm going to disagree with this kind of DM fiat. Gods really should not intervene unless the stakes are either Epic, or they directly imperil the AGGREGATE power of a deity. I think putting this on the initative timer, so that the other players can stop this is a better solution. Perhaps the best answer, is to make the character hear a dark voice tell them "Follow me, and you can do this everyone!" If they go for it, find/make an appropriate evil deity and let them serve it as a Blackguard--they are playing their character fine, its just about to crystalize. Is worshipping an evil deity a deed so heinous that a just (LG) figure can honestly execute such a figure? Probably not, although Primus might go for it. That said, human sacrifice is evil. If the gods are at war, this could be construed as an "act of war", but its still rather merciless. Really though, these people should be playing evil PCs. If they want to torture, rape and kill, that's right up their alley.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-22-06, 07:59 AM	I'm going to disagree with this kind of DM fiat. Gods really should not intervene unless the stakes are either Epic, or they directly imperil the AGGREGATE power of a deity. Except this is Forgotten Realms and the gods intervene with things like milking the cows in the morning and the art of sandwich preparation.
Imzyr 09-22-06, 08:38 AM	I think you got it all wrong. I mean, WOW, what a paladin! Totally using evil against evil; give 'em a taste of their own medicine. Torm The True must've been right proud of this one! What? This isn't a good thing? Methinks the good people of Starmantle (who now worship the Black Hand of Bane), got a true look at "good" and what it means to be a paladin. To bad they don't worship Lord Belial...
Lonestar 09-22-06, 08:43 AM	Gotta love a Paladin who knows where he stands. The paladin my friend is playi8ng in my campaign is a lech, drunkard, *******, crude, vulgar, and perhaps the coolest/best paladin I've ever seen
CharlieRock 09-22-06, 11:35 AM	Torm? Shar ? Who ??? :confused: Anyway, the OPs example of a Paladins actions doesnt seem out of alignment, just nervous or confused.Quite often we hear of Paladins striking people dead in their homes (sometimes the family as well).Thats their business.Some paladins think nothing of marching into town and arresting a priest with no explanation at all to the townsfolk.Thats why in a lot of campaigns paladins are ones to be feared as well as respected. It all depends on how the paladins are portrayed in the campaign world. Roving do-gooders or iron-clad inquisiters. I'm sure there are some nice ones around. ;)
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-22-06, 01:28 PM	Anyway, the OPs example of a Paladins actions doesnt seem out of alignment, just nervous or confused. Really? Human Sacrifice? Quite often we hear of Paladins striking people dead in their homes (sometimes the family as well).Thats their business.Some paladins think nothing of marching into town and arresting a priest with no explanation at all to the townsfolk.Thats why in a lot of campaigns paladins are ones to be feared as well as respected. Ah, Lawful Evil Paladins. Warms your heart.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 03:08 PM	Except this is Forgotten Realms and the gods intervene with things like milking the cows in the morning and the art of sandwich preparation. Dare I ask in which book or when that happens? I've got a bad feeling about that one. Yeah, Forgotten Realms is a great place to find the gods, kill them, and become divine yourself. Its also a great place to go to McEpicBurger and ask for a one million GP hamburger and fries. I don't know what Torm is doing today. If he's just out gardening and playing chess today, yeah, he'll swing by. If he's going to miss a sixty hour divine telethon of Worlds Dumbest Adventurers, he'll probably give it a miss.