Alingment Shift XP Penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alingment Shift XP Penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PoeticJustice
01-20-05, 11:01 AM I have a feeling that a few players are going to jump ship on their alignment next session. I had heard another DM that typically he accompanies a sudden alignment shift with an EXP loss. He didn't say exactly how much.
Do you think it's fair for players to lose EXP for shifting alignment?
If so, how much?
Nani?
01-20-05, 11:11 AM There is 1st and 2nd addition tratition of penalizeng people a level for alignment shifts. I think if this is part of the the natural evolution of a character, this tradition is bunk. If it's a readical change in play style to screw with people, that's another thing.

All the Best,

Nani?
Talon Blackhart
01-20-05, 11:41 AM I think that penalizing people with XP because of alignment shifting is usually a bad idea. However, keep in mind that several classes have alignment restrictions, and these can give you a valid reason to penalize.

I treat alignment shifts on a case-to-case basis, though. If it's simply the neutral-good fighter going chaotic, its ok. Or the chaotic good rogue going chaotic neutral is also fine. These are both assuming that it's been a appropriate change in the char's personality, as well.

Smiting of some sort usually occurs for random sudden extreme shifts, however. The great wizard FUBAR tends to show up at that point.

However, as a note for my campaigns, chars going evil will result in one of two results: a dead char or a new npc (as the player rolls up a new char, usually at an XP/ level penalty). I won't allow a char of evil alignment in my game.
Uratoh
01-20-05, 01:28 PM Do like in Knights of the Dinner Table. alignment flip = lose half yer EPs. :p
Beamup
01-20-05, 01:41 PM Absolutely not, provided that the characters are still acting "in character." Deliberate alignment shifts so the PC can use the nice new magic item they found deserve an XP penalty, just like good RP deserves a bonus.

The one fundamental truth of alignment everyone needs to know is this:
Actions determine alignment. Alignment does NOT determine actions.
PoeticJustice
01-20-05, 02:55 PM I like the FUBAR idea...
Thank you for all of your input, I think I am of one mind with you all. After all, there are more subtle ways of penalizing players than saying "-500 EXP"
Lincoln Hills
01-20-05, 02:59 PM Please astonish me by telling me that the characters have started acting too Lawful, or too Good.

But I know that's not the case. What is this constant drive that players have to slip into Neutral Evil (called by them "Chaotic Neutral", but when's the last time you saw 'em do something that was not totally consistent with NE as written? ;) at every opportunity?

I think it's something to do with the fact that NE people act as if they are the only true humans, and all the people they encounter are nothing but counters in a game, pawns on a chessboard, NPCs in a campaign. ;) Strip away all decency and pretensions of virtue, and treat all you meet as THINGS: voila!
charred
01-21-05, 12:17 AM Give them an Xp penalty because you heard that another DM does it? Just because someone had a bad idea is not a good reason to follow suit. The concept of alignment is so artificial that trying to relate it to how a person would actually act is just absurd. No real person "stays in alignment" all the time. Nor can you say that a person's alignment doesn't shift, or how often a normal person's alignment shifts. As for the comment about shifting alignment just to use a magic item, your concern does have more merit, but, people in real life get tempted and change their ways if they see something they want.
I have a serious problem with DMs that try to run an ameteur acting class rather than a game. Overbearing DMs kill the fun of the game. Who benefits from the XP penalty? How will anyone be hurt by letting the PC deviate from their alignment? Unless you can give specific answers about how it will effect your game, I wouldn't even consider it.
FreeTheSlaves
01-21-05, 04:49 AM The only 3rd edition xp penalty is either death or level drain (+ xp cost for spells - perhaps not a penalty as such). Any other xp penalty is a bad house rule.

Alignment change is quite common but it is the DM that decides when, not the players.

No surprise that this question is answered in the DMG.
Shard of Suzail
01-21-05, 07:27 AM I play True Neutral, but i must admit, every so often, i`m tempted to define myself as lawful neutral. Its hard to avoid when you travel around with a party consistently, doing predictable things for the courts.

These days though, most of the people i see changing alignment are those who refuse to play alignments properly. A decent character tends, i would say, to have one moment in its life, usually after a long period of adventuring, say ten levels, where it sits about and has a good think on "how it has developed" and whether it should change alignment to reflect, say, a hardening to the rigours of war.

Players who change alignment on a whim need help to develop a proper personality for their characters along with, say, things that they value. Values rarely change overnight, so they are a great way to keep a consistent mindset.

A gm also needs to make players play heroic characters with a strong identity. If a party is filled with people whose only motivation is to get rich, then it is no surprise if their methods of action keep altering wildly.

Lastly, i feel that gm's need to view codes of conduct, for characters like paladins who have them, as a strength rather than as a flaw. There is no incentive to play lawful good where a gm constantly threatens to remove a paladins status for doing what he believes and sometimes knows to be right. Similarly, a lawful good player should be reminded that he is in tune with the right side of the world rather than being the exception to it.

If people view the player paladin as a warrior who works for the church, then you have a loose alignment environment. If, however, people trust what he says and a respectful and reverent of the paladin, then you know the gm has put some thought into it all and has good as a potent force in his campaign world.

There is a lot of give and take with alignments and the campaign world should reinforce and reward them as well as punish players when they change from one alignment to the next.

I remember, once i had a group that had an evil character in it. He was actually quite horrified when a demon type creature showed up and instantly viewed him as an ally. Needless to say, it shocked him out of his evil ways and put him back to neutral, where he belonged.
Crazy Elf Witch
01-21-05, 07:36 AM If they're changing alignment because of roleplaying then you should definitly not give them an XP Penalty. However, if they're doing this to gain access to a class or, as mentionned before, a magic item then you should do something about it. As a rule I generaly don't like to take xp away from my players, but I wouldnt be shy about sending a high level LG Paladin to deal with their 'evil' ways. :evillaugh
Callista
01-21-05, 08:41 AM I have a feeling that a few players are going to jump ship on their alignment next session. I had heard another DM that typically he accompanies a sudden alignment shift with an EXP loss. He didn't say exactly how much.
Do you think it's fair for players to lose EXP for shifting alignment?
If so, how much?

NOO! Are you nuts?! Alignement change is a fundamental part of role-playing!! Its change is character development, not punishment!!

Now, if you're running a non-evil campaign, and your PCs are starting to act Evil... congratulations; you're now running an Evil campaign. If it's your policy to NPC anything that turns Evil, I hope you made it clear beforehand. But in this case, it's all your players, so you're better off just running an evil campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PoeticJustice 01-20-05, 11:01 AM	I have a feeling that a few players are going to jump ship on their alignment next session. I had heard another DM that typically he accompanies a sudden alignment shift with an EXP loss. He didn't say exactly how much. Do you think it's fair for players to lose EXP for shifting alignment? If so, how much?
Nani? 01-20-05, 11:11 AM	There is 1st and 2nd addition tratition of penalizeng people a level for alignment shifts. I think if this is part of the the natural evolution of a character, this tradition is bunk. If it's a readical change in play style to screw with people, that's another thing. All the Best, Nani?
Talon Blackhart 01-20-05, 11:41 AM	I think that penalizing people with XP because of alignment shifting is usually a bad idea. However, keep in mind that several classes have alignment restrictions, and these can give you a valid reason to penalize. I treat alignment shifts on a case-to-case basis, though. If it's simply the neutral-good fighter going chaotic, its ok. Or the chaotic good rogue going chaotic neutral is also fine. These are both assuming that it's been a appropriate change in the char's personality, as well. Smiting of some sort usually occurs for random sudden extreme shifts, however. The great wizard FUBAR tends to show up at that point. However, as a note for my campaigns, chars going evil will result in one of two results: a dead char or a new npc (as the player rolls up a new char, usually at an XP/ level penalty). I won't allow a char of evil alignment in my game.
Uratoh 01-20-05, 01:28 PM	Do like in Knights of the Dinner Table. alignment flip = lose half yer EPs. :p
Beamup 01-20-05, 01:41 PM	Absolutely not, provided that the characters are still acting "in character." Deliberate alignment shifts so the PC can use the nice new magic item they found deserve an XP penalty, just like good RP deserves a bonus. The one fundamental truth of alignment everyone needs to know is this: Actions determine alignment. Alignment does NOT determine actions.
PoeticJustice 01-20-05, 02:55 PM	I like the FUBAR idea... Thank you for all of your input, I think I am of one mind with you all. After all, there are more subtle ways of penalizing players than saying "-500 EXP"
Lincoln Hills 01-20-05, 02:59 PM	Please astonish me by telling me that the characters have started acting too Lawful, or too Good. But I know that's not the case. What is this constant drive that players have to slip into Neutral Evil (called by them "Chaotic Neutral", but when's the last time you saw 'em do something that was not totally consistent with NE as written? ;) at every opportunity? I think it's something to do with the fact that NE people act as if they are the only true humans, and all the people they encounter are nothing but counters in a game, pawns on a chessboard, NPCs in a campaign. ;) Strip away all decency and pretensions of virtue, and treat all you meet as THINGS: voila!
charred 01-21-05, 12:17 AM	Give them an Xp penalty because you heard that another DM does it? Just because someone had a bad idea is not a good reason to follow suit. The concept of alignment is so artificial that trying to relate it to how a person would actually act is just absurd. No real person "stays in alignment" all the time. Nor can you say that a person's alignment doesn't shift, or how often a normal person's alignment shifts. As for the comment about shifting alignment just to use a magic item, your concern does have more merit, but, people in real life get tempted and change their ways if they see something they want. I have a serious problem with DMs that try to run an ameteur acting class rather than a game. Overbearing DMs kill the fun of the game. Who benefits from the XP penalty? How will anyone be hurt by letting the PC deviate from their alignment? Unless you can give specific answers about how it will effect your game, I wouldn't even consider it.
FreeTheSlaves 01-21-05, 04:49 AM	The only 3rd edition xp penalty is either death or level drain (+ xp cost for spells - perhaps not a penalty as such). Any other xp penalty is a bad house rule. Alignment change is quite common but it is the DM that decides when, not the players. No surprise that this question is answered in the DMG.
Shard of Suzail 01-21-05, 07:27 AM	I play True Neutral, but i must admit, every so often, i`m tempted to define myself as lawful neutral. Its hard to avoid when you travel around with a party consistently, doing predictable things for the courts. These days though, most of the people i see changing alignment are those who refuse to play alignments properly. A decent character tends, i would say, to have one moment in its life, usually after a long period of adventuring, say ten levels, where it sits about and has a good think on "how it has developed" and whether it should change alignment to reflect, say, a hardening to the rigours of war. Players who change alignment on a whim need help to develop a proper personality for their characters along with, say, things that they value. Values rarely change overnight, so they are a great way to keep a consistent mindset. A gm also needs to make players play heroic characters with a strong identity. If a party is filled with people whose only motivation is to get rich, then it is no surprise if their methods of action keep altering wildly. Lastly, i feel that gm's need to view codes of conduct, for characters like paladins who have them, as a strength rather than as a flaw. There is no incentive to play lawful good where a gm constantly threatens to remove a paladins status for doing what he believes and sometimes knows to be right. Similarly, a lawful good player should be reminded that he is in tune with the right side of the world rather than being the exception to it. If people view the player paladin as a warrior who works for the church, then you have a loose alignment environment. If, however, people trust what he says and a respectful and reverent of the paladin, then you know the gm has put some thought into it all and has good as a potent force in his campaign world. There is a lot of give and take with alignments and the campaign world should reinforce and reward them as well as punish players when they change from one alignment to the next. I remember, once i had a group that had an evil character in it. He was actually quite horrified when a demon type creature showed up and instantly viewed him as an ally. Needless to say, it shocked him out of his evil ways and put him back to neutral, where he belonged.
Crazy Elf Witch 01-21-05, 07:36 AM	If they're changing alignment because of roleplaying then you should definitly not give them an XP Penalty. However, if they're doing this to gain access to a class or, as mentionned before, a magic item then you should do something about it. As a rule I generaly don't like to take xp away from my players, but I wouldnt be shy about sending a high level LG Paladin to deal with their 'evil' ways. :evillaugh
Callista 01-21-05, 08:41 AM	I have a feeling that a few players are going to jump ship on their alignment next session. I had heard another DM that typically he accompanies a sudden alignment shift with an EXP loss. He didn't say exactly how much. Do you think it's fair for players to lose EXP for shifting alignment? If so, how much? NOO! Are you nuts?! Alignement change is a fundamental part of role-playing!! Its change is character development, not punishment!! Now, if you're running a non-evil campaign, and your PCs are starting to act Evil... congratulations; you're now running an Evil campaign. If it's your policy to NPC anything that turns Evil, I hope you made it clear beforehand. But in this case, it's all your players, so you're better off just running an evil campaign.