ALL About Grapple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ALL About Grapple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zahnb
03-08-05, 04:43 PM Do all the GM's groan constantly when your players go "Ok, I trip him" or "I'll start a grapple"?

I do, and I'll tell you why.

It seems so silly that it is easier to kill someone by wrestling than by sticking a sword in them. I won't go into the mechanics as it is so boring, but it slows down the game and it just seems that them made too many "special moves" in an abstract combat system. I mean come on, we are using "hit points" here, why is there so many stupid combat tricks? I'm not going to have every monster start tripping, grappling etc. even though they should as it slows down combat to a crawl...in other words BORING.

How many groups out there use these rules constantly?(like every melee except against oozes) And I'm talking players, not GM's, as there are monsters that require the rules a la Purple worms...
Slider33
03-08-05, 04:58 PM I actually wished they did combat tactics and options MORE, but I may regret saying that if they used it too much.

They rarely use any of the listed combat actions during combat, I keep trying to push them a little forcing their characters to maybe fight on the defensive or go defensive every now and then, sooner or later they're going to get killed if they don't use some of these tools. I try to open their eyes to the various possibilities but to no avail quite yet.

Anyway, doing it every time would get quite annoying, some actions are pretty complicated especially grapple. I could see how it would slow combat down a lot.
olshanski_home
03-08-05, 05:18 PM I use the rules on a constant basis.

When the party is outnumbered 2-1 by weaker foes, it is almost always better for the weaker foes to grapple party members, especially people who have bows or spellcasters (who cannot take an AoO to prevent the grapple from succeeding).

Tripping sees a lot of use.

Bull rush is used rarely (I allow a bull rush to shove someone up to 45% in either direction besides just straight back)... this way you can push someone off of a narrow bridge.

Overrun I've seen used only one or two times, and those were dire situations.

The game would be much easier without these options, but it would also be a lot less interesting.
JKnight
03-08-05, 05:26 PM I love 'em.

Trip's the best, IMO. My players use it a lot, as I have used it a lot.

Grapple sucks. I don't care for the rules on grapple, though I intend to read these new Skip Williams articles on the subject when I get a chance.

Bull Rush, Feint, etc... These are just little extra things to play with, to take the BORING edge off of I hit. You miss. I hit. You miss. I'm hurt. Of course, it can be described better than that... but the feinting always comes like a nice surprise. But it's not worth it to overuse it, and I know of absolutely NO PC who has ever taken Improved Feint.

Trip's the best.

Later,

JK
Ibbins
03-08-05, 05:35 PM The game would be much easier without these options, but it would also be a lot less interesting.

Very true. My group, though we have had only about 6 sessions, has never used any special moves(some may already be aware that my group sucks), but that's because only one of them knows the rules(fortunately, i don't have to put up with this anymore, since I'm no longer DM). Combat would get very boring very quickly because no one ever used special actions, or ever even moved around/took advantage of AoO. But since I'm a PC now, I'm hoping that my tactics will set an example for the rest.
Laranis Callirr
03-08-05, 05:37 PM Much to my luck, my group knows and understands the rules amost fully. So, the combat tactics really add an edge to our game. :D
zahnb
03-09-05, 08:30 AM Ok, the people who responded, how many players do you have? We adventure with 7 PC's and one time with orcs, there was a massive trip fest. It took a long time and seems stupid.

Why does it seem easier to trip someone than to stick a sword in em?
FriendoftheDork
03-09-05, 09:32 AM I use grapple, trip, disarm etc when appropriate. It doesen't slow down the game when you're used to them, but looking up a little used rule can take half a minute. Bull rush, overrun are rarely used. Grapple is often used, but is seldom more effective than normal attacks, except for monks.

Remember that grapples can be cool martial arts, throws, pins etc. and not just rolling on the floor embraced.

Otherwise grapple is often used by big opponents against smaller ones, although usually only if the target is alone or the monster has some edge (improved grab, rake, constrict etc. ).

Trips are almost only used with improved trip feat or with dogs/wolves.

Tripping without improved trip is a waste of time usually.

Zhanb, tripping (or basically getting your opponent off balance) is a very common tactic both in martial arts and conventional swordfighting. Gladiator fights in the Roman empire was often climaxed by one gladiator tripping another.

BTW 7 PCs is alot! No wonder it takes alot of time. I prey you have no spellcasters in your group that need to prepare spells....
olshanski_home
03-09-05, 09:36 AM I have 5 players in my group.

If a creature has a very high AC, sometimes the only way to get a chance is to trip them and flank them. Once when I was playing with a group of 6 3rd level players, we had to fight a 6+ level vampire. It was going to be a slaughter, but we were able to have a summoned wolf knock him prone, then a characte with improved grapple jumped on him and started grappling, then 3 other characters were able to pile into the grapple and pin the vampire. While have the group maintained the pin, the remaining two worked on stripping the vampire of his magic sword and other miscelaneous magic items. Eventually the vampire was able to assume gaseous form and escape... but we had his magic sword!

If a creature has four legs, good strength, and bad AC, it isn't worth trying to trip them... note that something like a centaur would get +8 on its opposed strength check (+4 large, +4 extra legs).

Note that according to the RAW, the vampire should not have been able to escape the grapple in gas form. (It seems like common sense, but the rules only say that an incorporeal creature cannot be grappled.... a gas-form creature is NOT incorporeal according to the rules).
FriendoftheDork
03-09-05, 11:08 AM Vampires in gasous form are incorporeal. Thus he cannot be grappled unless the touch attacks can hit incorporeal creatures. Use some common sense.

I'm not sure if Insubstantial=Incorporeal, but it's pretty much the same, right? Are gases insubstantial?
olshanski_home
03-09-05, 11:33 AM Grappling Gaseous Form:
It seems like common sense that you cannot grapple someone in Gaseous form, but the rules do not seem to support it. I would certainly not object to any DM that ruled that gaseous creatures cannot be grappled.
A vampire in gas form is not incorporeal, it is insubstantial.

From SPELLS: Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly.
A gaseous form creature is subject to wind. It does exist as something that can be manipulated, even though it cannot manipulate other things itself.From CONDITIONS:GASEOUS: Gaseous creatures can’t enter water or other liquid. They are not ethereal or incorporeal. They are affected by winds or other forms of moving air to the extent that the wind pushes them in the direction the wind is moving. However, even the strongest wind can’t disperse or damage a creature in gaseous form.From CONDITIONS: INCORPOREAL: Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures.

Air Elementals: Can grapple people, can pick them up and carry them... there is nothing that indicates that simply because a creature consists of "air" that it cannot be grappled.
Sildatorak
03-09-05, 12:33 PM It seems so silly that it is easier to kill someone by wrestling than by sticking a sword in them.

It isn't really, and I don't think the rules reflect that. Monsters tend to be larger, stronger, and have higher BAB then players at level=CR. Not to mention that PC's gear is incredibly unlikely to help their grappling (except for strength boosting items). Grappling is also extremely dicey without the appropriate feat, as are most of the combat manuvers.

Wrestling someone to death is pretty unrealistic, though, I'll agree there. However, wrestling someone while your buddy busts a pool cue across the guy's head is pretty effective.

Grappling fighter+TWF rogues=blood-covered grappling fighter holding a corpse.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zahnb 03-08-05, 04:43 PM	Do all the GM's groan constantly when your players go "Ok, I trip him" or "I'll start a grapple"? I do, and I'll tell you why. It seems so silly that it is easier to kill someone by wrestling than by sticking a sword in them. I won't go into the mechanics as it is so boring, but it slows down the game and it just seems that them made too many "special moves" in an abstract combat system. I mean come on, we are using "hit points" here, why is there so many stupid combat tricks? I'm not going to have every monster start tripping, grappling etc. even though they should as it slows down combat to a crawl...in other words BORING. How many groups out there use these rules constantly?(like every melee except against oozes) And I'm talking players, not GM's, as there are monsters that require the rules a la Purple worms...
Slider33 03-08-05, 04:58 PM	I actually wished they did combat tactics and options MORE, but I may regret saying that if they used it too much. They rarely use any of the listed combat actions during combat, I keep trying to push them a little forcing their characters to maybe fight on the defensive or go defensive every now and then, sooner or later they're going to get killed if they don't use some of these tools. I try to open their eyes to the various possibilities but to no avail quite yet. Anyway, doing it every time would get quite annoying, some actions are pretty complicated especially grapple. I could see how it would slow combat down a lot.
olshanski_home 03-08-05, 05:18 PM	I use the rules on a constant basis. When the party is outnumbered 2-1 by weaker foes, it is almost always better for the weaker foes to grapple party members, especially people who have bows or spellcasters (who cannot take an AoO to prevent the grapple from succeeding). Tripping sees a lot of use. Bull rush is used rarely (I allow a bull rush to shove someone up to 45% in either direction besides just straight back)... this way you can push someone off of a narrow bridge. Overrun I've seen used only one or two times, and those were dire situations. The game would be much easier without these options, but it would also be a lot less interesting.
JKnight 03-08-05, 05:26 PM	I love 'em. Trip's the best, IMO. My players use it a lot, as I have used it a lot. Grapple sucks. I don't care for the rules on grapple, though I intend to read these new Skip Williams articles on the subject when I get a chance. Bull Rush, Feint, etc... These are just little extra things to play with, to take the BORING edge off of I hit. You miss. I hit. You miss. I'm hurt. Of course, it can be described better than that... but the feinting always comes like a nice surprise. But it's not worth it to overuse it, and I know of absolutely NO PC who has ever taken Improved Feint. Trip's the best. Later, JK
Ibbins 03-08-05, 05:35 PM	The game would be much easier without these options, but it would also be a lot less interesting. Very true. My group, though we have had only about 6 sessions, has never used any special moves(some may already be aware that my group sucks), but that's because only one of them knows the rules(fortunately, i don't have to put up with this anymore, since I'm no longer DM). Combat would get very boring very quickly because no one ever used special actions, or ever even moved around/took advantage of AoO. But since I'm a PC now, I'm hoping that my tactics will set an example for the rest.
Laranis Callirr 03-08-05, 05:37 PM	Much to my luck, my group knows and understands the rules amost fully. So, the combat tactics really add an edge to our game. :D
zahnb 03-09-05, 08:30 AM	Ok, the people who responded, how many players do you have? We adventure with 7 PC's and one time with orcs, there was a massive trip fest. It took a long time and seems stupid. Why does it seem easier to trip someone than to stick a sword in em?
FriendoftheDork 03-09-05, 09:32 AM	I use grapple, trip, disarm etc when appropriate. It doesen't slow down the game when you're used to them, but looking up a little used rule can take half a minute. Bull rush, overrun are rarely used. Grapple is often used, but is seldom more effective than normal attacks, except for monks. Remember that grapples can be cool martial arts, throws, pins etc. and not just rolling on the floor embraced. Otherwise grapple is often used by big opponents against smaller ones, although usually only if the target is alone or the monster has some edge (improved grab, rake, constrict etc. ). Trips are almost only used with improved trip feat or with dogs/wolves. Tripping without improved trip is a waste of time usually. Zhanb, tripping (or basically getting your opponent off balance) is a very common tactic both in martial arts and conventional swordfighting. Gladiator fights in the Roman empire was often climaxed by one gladiator tripping another. BTW 7 PCs is alot! No wonder it takes alot of time. I prey you have no spellcasters in your group that need to prepare spells....
olshanski_home 03-09-05, 09:36 AM	I have 5 players in my group. If a creature has a very high AC, sometimes the only way to get a chance is to trip them and flank them. Once when I was playing with a group of 6 3rd level players, we had to fight a 6+ level vampire. It was going to be a slaughter, but we were able to have a summoned wolf knock him prone, then a characte with improved grapple jumped on him and started grappling, then 3 other characters were able to pile into the grapple and pin the vampire. While have the group maintained the pin, the remaining two worked on stripping the vampire of his magic sword and other miscelaneous magic items. Eventually the vampire was able to assume gaseous form and escape... but we had his magic sword! If a creature has four legs, good strength, and bad AC, it isn't worth trying to trip them... note that something like a centaur would get +8 on its opposed strength check (+4 large, +4 extra legs). Note that according to the RAW, the vampire should not have been able to escape the grapple in gas form. (It seems like common sense, but the rules only say that an incorporeal creature cannot be grappled.... a gas-form creature is NOT incorporeal according to the rules).
FriendoftheDork 03-09-05, 11:08 AM	Vampires in gasous form are incorporeal. Thus he cannot be grappled unless the touch attacks can hit incorporeal creatures. Use some common sense. I'm not sure if Insubstantial=Incorporeal, but it's pretty much the same, right? Are gases insubstantial?
olshanski_home 03-09-05, 11:33 AM	Grappling Gaseous Form: It seems like common sense that you cannot grapple someone in Gaseous form, but the rules do not seem to support it. I would certainly not object to any DM that ruled that gaseous creatures cannot be grappled. A vampire in gas form is not incorporeal, it is insubstantial. From SPELLS: Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly. A gaseous form creature is subject to wind. It does exist as something that can be manipulated, even though it cannot manipulate other things itself.From CONDITIONS:GASEOUS: Gaseous creatures can’t enter water or other liquid. They are not ethereal or incorporeal. They are affected by winds or other forms of moving air to the extent that the wind pushes them in the direction the wind is moving. However, even the strongest wind can’t disperse or damage a creature in gaseous form.From CONDITIONS: INCORPOREAL: Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures. Air Elementals: Can grapple people, can pick them up and carry them... there is nothing that indicates that simply because a creature consists of "air" that it cannot be grappled.
Sildatorak 03-09-05, 12:33 PM	It seems so silly that it is easier to kill someone by wrestling than by sticking a sword in them. It isn't really, and I don't think the rules reflect that. Monsters tend to be larger, stronger, and have higher BAB then players at level=CR. Not to mention that PC's gear is incredibly unlikely to help their grappling (except for strength boosting items). Grappling is also extremely dicey without the appropriate feat, as are most of the combat manuvers. Wrestling someone to death is pretty unrealistic, though, I'll agree there. However, wrestling someone while your buddy busts a pool cue across the guy's head is pretty effective. Grappling fighter+TWF rogues=blood-covered grappling fighter holding a corpse.