All about illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

All about illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arlechino
02-07-06, 02:17 PM Yay! I'm really glad to see this issue is being addressed. The two questions I hope this series of articles solves is:
1) Can figments provide concealment? Does it matter whether a character fails or succeeds their save? (If it matters, then illusory fog or walls can be devastating for ranged combat, where those on the illusionists team are warned there will be an illusion beforehand)

2) What does "interacting" mean anyway?

What confuses you all the most about illusions?
WCH
02-07-06, 02:32 PM Interacting means coming into contact with it. Trying to have a conversation with an illusionary person, stepping on an illusion rug, stuff like that. Like you walk on it/touch it/talk to it and something about it is just "huh, that doesn't seem right somehow."

As for fog... that's kind of the point, isn't it? Hence the Obscuring Mist spell and whatever else.
Anathema
02-07-06, 02:39 PM Yes, illusions provide concealment but not cover. An illusion can block line of sight, so an illusion of a door or wall that blocks line of sight, provides concealment. If a person has not successfully disbelieved the illusion yet still fires through it does so as if firing at someone invisible.

Interacting is the same as was mentioned above. Trying to touch, hit, talk with, shake the hand of, lean against, open, etc. can all be classed as 'interacting'. Just passing by an illusory wall won't help, but a search check would count as interacting.
Arlechino
02-07-06, 03:03 PM So it's impossible to use a targetted spell at behind an illusory wall, until you succeed a will save against that wall? A rogue behind an illusory wall (within 30ft) can use a bow to sneak attack to his heart's content, until a foe makes a will save? This could potentially be done with Silent Image (though it would keep the caster occupied), and it's pretty powerful.

As for "interacting" it still seems unclear to me. If I recall correctly, "interacting" is the only RAW reason to get a save (am I right?). So if a companion walked onto an illusory bridge, and plummets, does a viewer get a save? This isn't interacting by any definition I know of. What about talking to a figment wall? Is that interacting with it? Is yelling at someone 30 feet away "interacting" with that person? In general, what options does a character have for "interacting" with things outside his/her immediate reach? Is firing an arrow at a figment interacting with it? What about being fired at from behind a figment wall? Illusions are conceptually very cool, but they make my head hurt...
Anathema
02-07-06, 03:48 PM You are under the mistaken presumption that interacting with an illusion is the only way to disbelieve it.

A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss...If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Interaction, study, and testing can all grant saving throws; and some situations (pending DM review) might negate the need for a saving throw at all.
turtlemonkey
02-07-06, 07:05 PM if the said example happend, id probably do a save for the one that fell through (under the idea that he intereacted with) give PC's not falling through a save (with +4 since seeing it happen... is quite similiar and should provide the bonus as if the first pc told them... he kinda did.. when he fell through, just not vocally... well he did vocally if he screamed as he went down)... now even if the PC's fail.. they will know the bridge isnt right, and will know its an illusion, BUT it wont take on the... phantomish apprenence (Ie you know its an illustion, but it still looks real.. see through illusion you can literally see through it, but know where its supposd to be by the ghostly image of it)
Arlechino
02-09-06, 08:07 PM Thanks for the tip, Anathema. I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of "proof" either (man, am I picky!) If a friend falls through a bridge, is the bridge, or the friend, an illusion?

Has anyone had difficulty in adjudicating illusions in their games? How did you rule? Any creative uses of illusion by players, or by NPCs?
czrwolf
02-13-06, 03:03 PM Here are some questions I hope this series of articles answers:

Do figments of creatures in combat provide a flanking bonus to allies if the opponent has not disbelieved them?

Can figment creatures do the 'Aid Another' combat action? The Aid Another action does not damage the target at all, but gives bonuses to an ally, seemingly by distracting their mutual opponent.

How many figment creatures can you make with the various Image spells? Silent Image implies one, but Persistent Image/Illusion describes doing a group of creatures playing cards and getting into a fight.

Are there any rule systems to help a DM adjucate the morale or fear effect that a Major Image of something truly fearsome might cause?

Can the sound part of an illusion be loud enough to prevent communication or make verbal spells more difficult to cast? Does the sound part of an illusion go away if the listeners make their Disbelief save?

Do the thermal components of a Major Image illusion allow you to make some one feel like they've been burnt or frozen, or just to make an object or creature feel hot or cold if they try to touch it or get near it?

I've always found the amazing versatility of the figment illusion spells intriguing, so I'm looking forward to getting some clarification on exactly what they can do.
Kadasbrass
02-13-06, 05:27 PM I'm really looking forward to the rest articles. The first one has done a good job on pointing out the overlooked basics. Illusions doesn't see much use other then Invis type spells in my group partly due to the lack of understanding of them.
Arlechino
02-14-06, 10:55 AM How many figment creatures can you make with the various Image spells? Silent Image implies one, but Persistent Image/Illusion describes doing a group of creatures playing cards and getting into a fight.

Good question! I was wondering that when I was reading the new (cool) article. In particular, I was wondering: Silent Image creates a single creature or object- does that mean a creature has to be naked? I assume not.. but what counts as "equipment"- can the creature be sitting on a chair? Can it get up from the chair? Can it have a table? A catapult?
morganm
02-14-06, 11:07 AM Finally some talk about illusions :D If anyone has made up or knows some really awsome illusions please reply here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=586705

I also have some questions about them.
What's your take on 'code words' for group members to give them a +4 save vs spell on an attempt to disbelive an illusion cast by a party member? Fair play or bending the rules?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions; thank you!
Arlechino
02-17-06, 06:23 PM Another issue I have is with the Shadow spells. Is believing in a spell really necessary to get its beneficial effects? This is weird, because the system almost never rewards someone for failing a save. For more on this, check out this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=588276
Arlechino
02-22-06, 11:36 AM Oh! And another one!

When using the various Image spells, determining whether an image is hit often important for disbelief rolls. What is the AC of an image? I'd assume it's something like 10+size+dex, but is there a limit to the dex a creature can have? For example, If Beeble Bluegrass uses major image to create an illusory Arrowhawk, what it the illusion's AC?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arlechino 02-07-06, 02:17 PM	Yay! I'm really glad to see this issue is being addressed. The two questions I hope this series of articles solves is: 1) Can figments provide concealment? Does it matter whether a character fails or succeeds their save? (If it matters, then illusory fog or walls can be devastating for ranged combat, where those on the illusionists team are warned there will be an illusion beforehand) 2) What does "interacting" mean anyway? What confuses you all the most about illusions?
WCH 02-07-06, 02:32 PM	Interacting means coming into contact with it. Trying to have a conversation with an illusionary person, stepping on an illusion rug, stuff like that. Like you walk on it/touch it/talk to it and something about it is just "huh, that doesn't seem right somehow." As for fog... that's kind of the point, isn't it? Hence the Obscuring Mist spell and whatever else.
Anathema 02-07-06, 02:39 PM	Yes, illusions provide concealment but not cover. An illusion can block line of sight, so an illusion of a door or wall that blocks line of sight, provides concealment. If a person has not successfully disbelieved the illusion yet still fires through it does so as if firing at someone invisible. Interacting is the same as was mentioned above. Trying to touch, hit, talk with, shake the hand of, lean against, open, etc. can all be classed as 'interacting'. Just passing by an illusory wall won't help, but a search check would count as interacting.
Arlechino 02-07-06, 03:03 PM	So it's impossible to use a targetted spell at behind an illusory wall, until you succeed a will save against that wall? A rogue behind an illusory wall (within 30ft) can use a bow to sneak attack to his heart's content, until a foe makes a will save? This could potentially be done with Silent Image (though it would keep the caster occupied), and it's pretty powerful. As for "interacting" it still seems unclear to me. If I recall correctly, "interacting" is the only RAW reason to get a save (am I right?). So if a companion walked onto an illusory bridge, and plummets, does a viewer get a save? This isn't interacting by any definition I know of. What about talking to a figment wall? Is that interacting with it? Is yelling at someone 30 feet away "interacting" with that person? In general, what options does a character have for "interacting" with things outside his/her immediate reach? Is firing an arrow at a figment interacting with it? What about being fired at from behind a figment wall? Illusions are conceptually very cool, but they make my head hurt...
Anathema 02-07-06, 03:48 PM	You are under the mistaken presumption that interacting with an illusion is the only way to disbelieve it. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss...If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. Interaction, study, and testing can all grant saving throws; and some situations (pending DM review) might negate the need for a saving throw at all.
turtlemonkey 02-07-06, 07:05 PM	if the said example happend, id probably do a save for the one that fell through (under the idea that he intereacted with) give PC's not falling through a save (with +4 since seeing it happen... is quite similiar and should provide the bonus as if the first pc told them... he kinda did.. when he fell through, just not vocally... well he did vocally if he screamed as he went down)... now even if the PC's fail.. they will know the bridge isnt right, and will know its an illusion, BUT it wont take on the... phantomish apprenence (Ie you know its an illustion, but it still looks real.. see through illusion you can literally see through it, but know where its supposd to be by the ghostly image of it)
Arlechino 02-09-06, 08:07 PM	Thanks for the tip, Anathema. I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of "proof" either (man, am I picky!) If a friend falls through a bridge, is the bridge, or the friend, an illusion? Has anyone had difficulty in adjudicating illusions in their games? How did you rule? Any creative uses of illusion by players, or by NPCs?
czrwolf 02-13-06, 03:03 PM	Here are some questions I hope this series of articles answers: Do figments of creatures in combat provide a flanking bonus to allies if the opponent has not disbelieved them? Can figment creatures do the 'Aid Another' combat action? The Aid Another action does not damage the target at all, but gives bonuses to an ally, seemingly by distracting their mutual opponent. How many figment creatures can you make with the various Image spells? Silent Image implies one, but Persistent Image/Illusion describes doing a group of creatures playing cards and getting into a fight. Are there any rule systems to help a DM adjucate the morale or fear effect that a Major Image of something truly fearsome might cause? Can the sound part of an illusion be loud enough to prevent communication or make verbal spells more difficult to cast? Does the sound part of an illusion go away if the listeners make their Disbelief save? Do the thermal components of a Major Image illusion allow you to make some one feel like they've been burnt or frozen, or just to make an object or creature feel hot or cold if they try to touch it or get near it? I've always found the amazing versatility of the figment illusion spells intriguing, so I'm looking forward to getting some clarification on exactly what they can do.
Kadasbrass 02-13-06, 05:27 PM	I'm really looking forward to the rest articles. The first one has done a good job on pointing out the overlooked basics. Illusions doesn't see much use other then Invis type spells in my group partly due to the lack of understanding of them.
Arlechino 02-14-06, 10:55 AM	How many figment creatures can you make with the various Image spells? Silent Image implies one, but Persistent Image/Illusion describes doing a group of creatures playing cards and getting into a fight. Good question! I was wondering that when I was reading the new (cool) article. In particular, I was wondering: Silent Image creates a single creature or object- does that mean a creature has to be naked? I assume not.. but what counts as "equipment"- can the creature be sitting on a chair? Can it get up from the chair? Can it have a table? A catapult?
morganm 02-14-06, 11:07 AM	Finally some talk about illusions :D If anyone has made up or knows some really awsome illusions please reply here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=586705 I also have some questions about them. What's your take on 'code words' for group members to give them a +4 save vs spell on an attempt to disbelive an illusion cast by a party member? Fair play or bending the rules? I'm sure I'll think of more questions; thank you!
Arlechino 02-17-06, 06:23 PM	Another issue I have is with the Shadow spells. Is believing in a spell really necessary to get its beneficial effects? This is weird, because the system almost never rewards someone for failing a save. For more on this, check out this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=588276
Arlechino 02-22-06, 11:36 AM	Oh! And another one! When using the various Image spells, determining whether an image is hit often important for disbelief rolls. What is the AC of an image? I'd assume it's something like 10+size+dex, but is there a limit to the dex a creature can have? For example, If Beeble Bluegrass uses major image to create an illusory Arrowhawk, what it the illusion's AC?