Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angel_raziel 11-26-06, 12:54 AM	I'm just getting into 3.5, and really getting into DM-ing now, and I'm curious what books I should look into for running an all wizard/arcane spellcaster game? Also, i'm kinda stuck on how to get the game off the ground. I know that I want a kind of political intrigue game set to the backdrop of a war between an empire and a smaller kingdom, I'm kinda being influenced by FFXII here, but, the plot bunnies won't go away, or tell me anything. I'm at a complete loss for how to get my game off the ground and the party together. I'm also a new DM, I've ran three games, two of which were Star Wars d20, and I never finished them. Also, what books, or suggestions from the rest of you, would be helpful to building my world?
Salla 11-26-06, 01:08 AM	Complete Arcane and Complete Mage would logically top the list.
angel_raziel 11-26-06, 01:17 AM	I have arcane, and depending on what happens, I should have mage sometime this week, but what else from there?
DFoster 11-26-06, 01:25 AM	Your probably going to want to start at a level higher then 1 as Wizards and Sorcerers are very vulnerable at low levels. For getting the party together you've got the pretty simple they are all friends at the local magic academy (where you could play out the lower levels to teach them how to use their powers and abilities, level up, etc if you have new players). After the academy you can try to have them all go to work for the smaller kingdom as apprentices to the court wizard or if it's a poor/weak kingdom, as the court mages. From there you have plenty of ways to have them do things to gain experience while finding out what the empire plans. And it puts them on the front line. There are many other options you could go with though should they not want to work for the small kingdom.
TheWerg 11-26-06, 01:40 AM	The Spell Compendium would vastly enlarge your options for spells.
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-26-06, 02:19 AM	Useful books will vary based on what kind of game your running, but some useful ones I've found are: 1) Magic of Faerun (3.0, but useable) 2) Player's Guide to Faerun 3) Lord's of Madness, Libris Mortis, Draconomicron Other good books will vary based on the what/where of your game. For example, if the game is occuring in a desert, Sandstorm is an excellent product. As for running an all Arcane game, I am getting ready to an all arcane game, so I have some insight to help you. Start with a theme that will tie the game together, then talk to your players about their characters before filling in the details. Example in my upcoming game... My chosen theme is this: Your (Arcane) characters have been tasked with helping to construct (over the course of an entire game) an artifact level tome. Your characters have all had contact with unfinished pieces of this artifact-tome that have given them incredible arcane talent. Then, I told the group and did NO other planning... Just tonight, one of my players finalized his concept. He wants to use a lot of material from Lords of Madness to create a Sorceror who was a slave to a Beholder, escaped (due to contact w/ said artifact-tome piece), but is now starting to warp due to the influence of his time w/ the Beholder (Abberant Blood feats and Lords of Madness spells). AND suddenly, I decided that one of the main villians trying to stop the construction of this artifact-tome would be a powerful beholder. Where did I come up with that one? Give the game a solid theme (core goal that can last 20+ levels), and then let the players fill in some of the details for you.
Aegeu 11-26-06, 08:33 AM	Complete Arcane, definitely. In addition to pointing out how to handle and roleplay a group of casters, it also has classes that will make a party of 4 arcanists survivable. Look into warlock, they have d6 HD so they can survive a few front-line hits, and infinite eldritch blasts means they can check for traps simply by shooting anything suspicious from 30 feet away.
Raxmei 11-26-06, 09:33 AM	PHB II provides the Beguiler class, which may be necessary to fill the niche vacated by the Rogue.
angel_raziel 11-26-06, 08:40 PM	I'll look into those books, thanks for the suggestions. Hopefully, if they like it, their characters should progress 20+ because I wan't to run multiple campaigns in this world, and have created a Warlock for the cheif villian that is level 18. Based on the Judges from Final Fantasy XII, I have created him 4 luitenents, currently level 3 but will progress with the characters, until they are killed off one by one, hopefully on consecutive adventures. I like the idea of a Magic School for the characters to meet in and spend a few adventures in, it would allow for me to play them out from first level. Possibly have the first few sessions be them building for for graduation, say, graduate at level 4. They will probably be involved with the small kingdom, which is ruled by a group of 6 level 10-15 spellcasters and from their, the six spellcasters select another spellcaster to act as their figure head...much like the american president. Any thoughts on where I should go from graduation? And also how should I set up the world I want to use? There are no Clerics in my world, so perhaps a Bard will have to act as a buff monkey and healer for the group? A thought I've had for the post graduation is that they are hired by the rulers of the country, they live in the capital, to escort a representitive of the ruling council to a meeting with the representitive of the empire, and by extension, my warlock.
FinisofLife 11-26-06, 09:52 PM	Maybe at graduation every year there are a group of people from each kingdom to try and hire the mages of the highest potential? You could keep the wizards school neutral from all the kingdom's so it makes a rule that each kingdom can only hire a certain number of wizards from the guild so it doesn't seem like one rich kingdom can just hire them all every year. Also might be a good way to move the entire party (as they are all hired by the same kingdom) to wherever you need them to go.
angel_raziel 11-26-06, 10:35 PM	Maybe at graduation every year there are a group of people from each kingdom to try and hire the mages of the highest potential? You could keep the wizards school neutral from all the kingdom's so it makes a rule that each kingdom can only hire a certain number of wizards from the guild so it doesn't seem like one rich kingdom can just hire them all every year. Also might be a good way to move the entire party (as they are all hired by the same kingdom) to wherever you need them to go. Interesting, kind of like a draft for magic users. Ultimately, I want to pit them up against my big villian who seeks to control the world, and some other nasty things, like turning it into a demon paradise. Which reminds me, I am kind of curious what build I should use for my Villian. He specalizes in manipulation and controlling others...kind of like palpatine in episodes I-III. I was thinking of making him a Mind Bender from Complete Arcane, but, I'm not sure what base class to make him...any thoughts?
TheWerg 11-26-06, 11:05 PM	For bards, Complete Adventurer has a lot of excellent feats and Prestige Classes. The bard in my game just checked it out and is loving it.
TheGreenGriffon 11-26-06, 11:28 PM	Somewhat off topic but in an all arcane campaign you might want to make some changes with healing spells. Like maybe putting in some minor ones for arcane casters. Or maybe make a rule where they can swap out prepared spells for cheap healing like a d4 per spell level expended.
angel_raziel 11-27-06, 01:40 AM	I had intended to pick up all the Complete books, but the above suggestion about bards in Complete Adventurer will speed up my purchasing of that book, any other books? As for the healing spells, I'll probably end up doing nothing about them and making the one, so far, Bard in the group be the band-aid station since cure mod. and cure ser. wounds is a Bard spell, that should encourage atleast one other person to play a Bard, if only because my groups don't really use a Bard, I think we've had one before. I'll be able to make a final decision on this when I have a final roster for my group. Anyone have any thoughts on my villian delima? I'm thinking of making him a sorceror who focuses primarily on enchant spells, charm person, charm monster, dominate person, dominate monster, some others like that, with a few offensive spells to back it up. I like the idea of using the Mind Bender because of its Eternal Charm ability...that's how I'm picturing he control's the Emperor, any thoughts?
FinisofLife 11-27-06, 01:50 AM	That would work, also if you have the psionic handbook a psion telepath would work perfectly. Lots of people don't like psionics and I'm not trying to turn this into a big debate but it might suit your purposes, and give your wizards a little twist on what makes the BBEG different from most wizards.
angel_raziel 11-27-06, 01:54 AM	Ok, now I present the question that makes me sounds like a newb...what is a BBEG? As for psyonics...I was considering it, but decided that it would be one of the last books I bought, if only because I didn't want to deal with it right off, I'm still slightly shakey on the rules, I don't want to mess with working Psyonics into my game...I might at a later date...maybe the Big Bad in an epic level game...if my players ever reach epic levels.
Arivia 11-27-06, 01:55 AM	One very important thing to note is that when you want to require the PCs to have something, give it to them for free. If they all must be psionic, give them all a free level in psion or wilder, or if they all must be members of House Varashandon, give them the Favored in Guild (House Varashandon) feat for free. In your case, give each player a free level in a class that gives arcane spellcasting. Everyone will be much happier if you simply mandate the party barbarian starts off with an extra level of sorcerer for story reasons. (Advanced tip: Use gestalt classes, and make one of the two classes an arcane class for as long as necessary.)
FinisofLife 11-27-06, 01:58 AM	heh BBEG=big bad evil guy. But gestalt would work nicely also like said above for people who didn't want to be stuck with just a mage. It's relatively simple to learn I'm sure someone has the link for where it is and could share it. But other then that the prestige class you described earlier sounds like your best bet.
Archangel62 11-27-06, 05:19 AM	My reccomendation is to explain this option to your players and see what tactics they use. Also, unearthed Arcana has the variant specialist mages, this is also a decent idea to check out.
angel_raziel 11-27-06, 12:05 PM	What is a Gesalt class? I don't think I've ever heard of it. Like I said in my first or second post, my entire group is new to the game, so, I think i'm just going to stick with the classes from PH and a couple other source books, but, since it is an all arcane game, there won't be any switching around between non arcane classes...they just don't exist in my world. Fighters in a normal D&D world are now Warmagi in my world. No clerics and no paladins because I'm taking a Dragonlance view of Gods and having them be ignored and unworshiped in favor of false gods. For my Bards and such, because they will be the buff and healing characters, I'll probably start them at level 2 or 3 as incentive to play said Bard. If a character wants to play a Gandolf type thing, the sword and the magic, I'll, at level 1, give them martial, or whatever, weapon prof so they can use the sword. Possibly Wednesday or Thursday I'll be able to run up to my Hobby shop and pick up one or two new books, so, if I do, I'll pick up complete mage and possibly complete adventurer.
Arivia 11-27-06, 12:54 PM	What is a Gesalt class? I don't think I've ever heard of it. It's a variant from Unearthed Arcana where you take two classes at once. Not recommended for beginners.
angel_raziel 11-27-06, 01:59 PM	Ok, its something I'll want to avoid for now then...I'll still look into it though. Are they like cross-classing?
dragor_shadowfury 11-27-06, 03:31 PM	gestalt? no, you get the best from both classes, (barbarian/wizards=spellcaster with d12 hd and good base att and rage ect. sorc/wiz=uber spellcaster of doom and destruction). try lookin' at complete worrior too, hexblade is arcane but fights as well as ranger
Myrddin Wyllt 11-27-06, 03:54 PM	I'm liking the way this thread is heading... Some suggestions on gathering a group: Create a secret organization of spellcasters devoted to either the creation or destruction of powerful artifacts/eldritch machines (a rule-breaking magical device that just does something cool, without fitting into D&D rules), and have that organization task the young mages with the location of artifact creation ingredients (ever-increasing in difficulty, of course, and occasionally with a moral dilemma...how to get powdered unicorn horn without killing the noble beast, for example), or with the retrieval of lost artifacts that need to be eliminated or locked away (a'la Friday the 13th The TV Series (http://www.tv.com/friday-the-13th-the-series/show/2468/summary.html), with over 70 episodes to draw material from). Have a wealthy benefactor offer each character in private a magic item of considerable power in exchange for doing some favors. "Perhaps his goals are not always altruistic, and sometimes he tasks them with morally problematic favors, but he always pays well enough, and you get to keep the peripheral findings..." Have each individual summoned by his/her mentor, and tell each in turn that they will become the first members of a magical coalition that surpasses all borders, racial differences, etc. in the name of magical progression. This Arcane College will start out as an exploration and research organization, but may eventually become a legitimate school in its own right. Be sure to offer players incentives to play unusual class/race combinations, in order to diversify the "college." Be sure to round out the college with a dozen or so unique NPC spell-chuckers too. The PCs' mentors will act as the Colleges Board of Directors, and send the players (occasionally with another NPC spell-chucker as subject-matter-expert on missions outside the PCs expertise).
Reversefigure4 11-27-06, 04:20 PM	First off, have the players create their characters TOGETHER. If you start the game and everyone turns up as a blaster mage, you'll have a lot of toe-stepping going on. If you work it out so the wizards have different specialities, schools, that sort of thing, you'll get more individual characters and a better team. Secondly, this puts a lot of roles on the Bard. He's now the team fighter, the healer, and the skill monkey all rolled into one. I'd consider having Wands of Cure Wounds avaliable as either treasure or buyable, as it frees the Bard up to know other spells.
trapspringer 11-27-06, 04:24 PM	It's an easy varient to run because arcane casters can overcome almost any obstacle. Avoid monsters that deal lots of damage very quickly. Similarly avoid monsters with very low hp, because caters will tear right through them. Basically focus on high defense or high special ability monsters and avoid high HP high damage monsters.
Archangel62 11-27-06, 05:41 PM	Player tactics: Sorcerer focused on summoning or Conjurer using Unearthed Arcana Variant Warmage/Sorcerer focused on blasty Generalist wizard Debuffer Beguiler or utility oriented caster Warlock DM tactics: Consider how and why you want a pure arcanist game because it might effect tactics and internal world logic. Remember, all of your players use magic, meaning that certain things will hurt them a lot more, be a lot more cautious about what you introduce.
angel_raziel 11-27-06, 11:51 PM	I primarily want to run an all arcane game because I'm tired of the games we have been running where everyone just hides behind the broken fighters to kill everything. I want to run a more role playing oriented game, and, I love magic, and have been wanting to run a highly magical world for a bit now. Should I allow other classes to be used? Or should I just keep it how it is because, from what I've seen, there seems to be an arcane class that is a cross of a spellcaster and some other class.
Archangel62 11-28-06, 12:02 AM	I primarily want to run an all arcane game because I'm tired of the games we have been running where everyone just hides behind the broken fighters to kill everything. I want to run a more role playing oriented game, and, I love magic, and have been wanting to run a highly magical world for a bit now. Should I allow other classes to be used? Or should I just keep it how it is because, from what I've seen, there seems to be an arcane class that is a cross of a spellcaster and some other class. Broken fighters....my my you must have some interesting games.
angel_raziel 11-28-06, 12:09 AM	Are you being sarcastic? And yeah, they are interesting...especially because the GM gives us enough gold each adventure to buy anything we want, and lets us buy anything in any book as long as we can afford it...I had two +10 Vorpal, Speeding, Holy, Burning, Shocking, Freezing, Wounding, Keen Longswords. I'm not saying that the wizard in the party wasn't just as bad as us, he was actually, but, he wasn't so bad until he got into the higher levels, and hopefully, by the time my players get that high, if they get that high, they will have developed their characters enough not to break them. We were level 20 in about a month of playing actually...all we did was fight, for about seven hour game sessions.
Phantem2 11-28-06, 12:16 AM	Here is an idea i have always wanted to use and havent gotten to it yet.(for a BBEG) make an illusionist that casts illusions on thing like broken bridges on the way to his tower on the mountain and some that ar'nt broken. Put illusions on statues and bushes to make them seem like they're going to come to life (foot twich or other slight movements) and some that actually do, also going crazy with the animate object spell on all kinds of things. then use hit and run tactics from elevated postions to wear them down. and go crazy with nystuls magic aura (probably misspelled). but i like messing with my players, you might not.
Kobold_Avenger 11-28-06, 12:17 AM	The dread necro from Heros of Horror might be worth checking out.
Archangel62 11-28-06, 12:26 AM	Are you being sarcastic? And yeah, they are interesting...especially because the GM gives us enough gold each adventure to buy anything we want, and lets us buy anything in any book as long as we can afford it...I had two +10 Vorpal, Speeding, Holy, Burning, Shocking, Freezing, Wounding, Keen Longswords. I'm not saying that the wizard in the party wasn't just as bad as us, he was actually, but, he wasn't so bad until he got into the higher levels, and hopefully, by the time my players get that high, if they get that high, they will have developed their characters enough not to break them. We were level 20 in about a month of playing actually...all we did was fight, for about seven hour game sessions. Well it's more because in general the fighter, at least the pure fighter, is probably the weakest D&D base class. So when I hear broken fighter I feel a bit confused and clarification helps. If you're getting that much gold the game is going to go out of whack in almost every case regardless.
angel_raziel 11-28-06, 01:36 AM	yeah, it was kind of boring, especially when the GM just led us around by our noses, telling us what we do, where we go, what we see, all we were there for was rolling the dice, which was a lot considering...plus the gnome cleric had a bow that was like my swords...the only thing we didn't make were dancing weapons.
Archangel62 11-28-06, 01:42 AM	yeah, it was kind of boring, especially when the GM just led us around by our noses, telling us what we do, where we go, what we see, all we were there for was rolling the dice, which was a lot considering...plus the gnome cleric had a bow that was like my swords...the only thing we didn't make were dancing weapons. That sounds eerily familiar...I had a DM similar to this, proably one of the worst DMs I've had to deal with, if we experienced the same one I'll laugh. An all arcanist game can allow for RP but RP is not garaunteed by one playstyle or another, nor by classes, it is more fostered by the DMs and players, not easy but it can be done.
angel_raziel 11-28-06, 03:29 AM	Yeah, thats what I'm worried about actually, my group are all either new to roleplaying period, or they are console drones...which is hard as hell to escape from, it took me a bit to get away from it actually. What really scares me is that the rest of the group, with the exception of the guy who I first started roleplaying with eight or so years ago, were completely ok with the way our DM was telling us what our characters did and didn't do. The kicker for me was the fact that he created a magical artifact that seemed to transcend both time and dimension, was a paradox in itself, made no sense, and really wasn't pivitol to the actual story of the game, which im not even sure there was one. And in the end, after finding all six or so peices of the cube, a "Dark Lord" appeared that we had to fight...and that could only be killed by using the cube...which was ******** actually, because he gave the cube to his own NPC paladin, which turned said Paladin into a god because of some ******** sacrifice for the greater good...or something like that.
Archangel62 11-28-06, 03:34 AM	Yeah, thats what I'm worried about actually, my group are all either new to roleplaying period, or they are console drones...which is hard as hell to escape from, it took me a bit to get away from it actually. What really scares me is that the rest of the group, with the exception of the guy who I first started roleplaying with eight or so years ago, were completely ok with the way our DM was telling us what our characters did and didn't do. The kicker for me was the fact that he created a magical artifact that seemed to transcend both time and dimension, was a paradox in itself, made no sense, and really wasn't pivitol to the actual story of the game, which im not even sure there was one. And in the end, after finding all six or so peices of the cube, a "Dark Lord" appeared that we had to fight...and that could only be killed by using the cube...which was ******** actually, because he gave the cube to his own NPC paladin, which turned said Paladin into a god because of some ******** sacrifice for the greater good...or something like that. Hookay....your DM made roleplaying painful and nonexistant, terribly sorry on that. If you want to introduce RP do it from the DMs screen, have players interact with the world, encourage them to speak from their characters and subtly reward them when they do. Doing so makes the players happy and helps reward good RP. It also means that they are more likely than not to start being more engaged in the game itself as well as getting a better idea that there are other ways to play the game. BTW, sounds like your DM watched too much hellraiser. Side note: If you want help designing the campaign and working with your players PM me and I'll be happy to give advice and assistance as much as I possibly can.
GoriceXII 11-28-06, 04:02 AM	You could also have a required year or two of particular service of some kind just after graduation. For instance they could simply be sent as a body of students to serve a former graduate and be given tasks and such by that person, a sort of probationary period till they have proven they can use their training ably.
angel_raziel 11-28-06, 08:53 PM	Thanks for the offer to help Archangel, I'll do that, I'm kind of a poor GM right now, I'm not too used to it yet, and I don't want my group hating my game and never playing with me as GM again. As for the year or two of service, how fast would the time pass? What I'm asking is, if I require four years of service, should I do it a year a week for four weeks, or how should time flow for the learning period? Phantem2, I didn't mean to overlook your post for the past couple posts, I did read it, and I find the idea interesting, but I would modify it a bit to be used more for a paranoid old hermit who the characters have to seek out as opposed to the BBEG because, honestly, it seems a bit more humorous and mischevious than I actually have in mind for my BBEG, who I'm at this point basing off Emperor Palpatine, so, he really wouldn't have a sense of humor, and, he doesn't have his own castle, he lives in the Imperial Palace with the Emperor I'm working on.
Archangel62 11-28-06, 11:21 PM	Thanks for the offer to help Archangel, I'll do that, I'm kind of a poor GM right now, I'm not too used to it yet, and I don't want my group hating my game and never playing with me as GM again. As for the year or two of service, how fast would the time pass? What I'm asking is, if I require four years of service, should I do it a year a week for four weeks, or how should time flow for the learning period? Phantem2, I didn't mean to overlook your post for the past couple posts, I did read it, and I find the idea interesting, but I would modify it a bit to be used more for a paranoid old hermit who the characters have to seek out as opposed to the BBEG because, honestly, it seems a bit more humorous and mischevious than I actually have in mind for my BBEG, who I'm at this point basing off Emperor Palpatine, so, he really wouldn't have a sense of humor, and, he doesn't have his own castle, he lives in the Imperial Palace with the Emperor I'm working on. Some advice now, GMing is like inventing, inspiration is a small part, sweat and toil is a larger part. Time in the game will be fluid so you might want to work out sort of an internal timetable and base it off of that.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 04:54 PM	I got a question in regards to the actual writing of the adventure. Should I write everything out, or have and idea of what I want and just write a starting and ending for it based on if the characters succeed in the over all quest and just sort of add things in that they do along the way if its relevent?
trapspringer 11-30-06, 05:11 PM	I think planning more than one session ahead (meaning an outline for this week and next week) will generally make things feel stinted. I like to run from a big-picture outline and let the game take shape on its own. One popular method for maintaining fluidity in play is shotgun mapping. Start from where you are. The players have only one choice. This might be "get out of a dungeon" or "flee the insane killing machine" or something else similarly mandatory. Once they resolve that issue, present them with two or three choices or routes. Maybe they see a purse snatcher running away down an ally. If they catch him, then X, if they fail, then Y. Go from their. The only problem with this method is, of course, that players don't always follow the paths put in front of them. Why do you think OotS and 8-Bit Theater both have old caster dudes driving the main quest? Because the world needs old caster dudes to tell the players to get the hell back in line! That isn't a whole lot of fun for the players though. The solution to this is the site-based adventure. That's a lot more labor-intensive because it means having a good, detailed world laid out and ready to roll complete with interesting NPCs and plot hooks lying about ready to snag unwary players at a moment's notice. Of course, you don't have to be completely thorough. Having a few shops in a town mapped out along with a few dungeons and two random encounters should give you enough raw material to assemble something worthy of being called a game once you get a feel for what the palyers are up to and about. In any event, the best way to run a game ultimately depends on the type of players you are running for. Experienced veterans, tacticians, and power-gamers will usually be satisfied with a good shotgun adventure. The latter two types generally like a focus on encounters, and will appreciate the rapid transition from one to another that generally occur with this planning style. More RP focused players will probably find this style a little constraining as you are making a lot of assumptions about the motivations of the more complex characters they bring to the table. Site-based adventures are better suited to their play style because the player sets the pace. If a veteran can't hang with this kind of game, then he or she should be stripped of his or her title.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 05:46 PM	All of my players are pretty new, so, I'm wanting to hope to foster roleplaying into my game over combat. By tonight, I should have a rough idea of what each of my players will be running, then I can map out the first adventure, which will be their graduation from school, they have to go into a dungeon and work together to fetch out their diplomas. From there, they will be hired by the BBEG, its not a choice on their part, I am going with an above suggestion where after schooling, the party is hired for for a short ammount of time to sort of test their abilities and to expand their horizons, mainly so that they can gain a level or two. Anyway, by the end of the first adventure, they should have graduated from arcane school, and handed one of my like four intelegent items over to the BBEG. Does that sound lose enough, but planned enough, to let the next adventure just sort of grow out of the first? That might be how I do it actually...I'll create a small portion of my world, two dungeons, the school, and a medium sized town/city, then from there let the game sort of just grow as the characters grow.
trapspringer 11-30-06, 06:22 PM	Looks good. You had the confidence to take some liberties with railroading (which is important, despite what some will tell you; good plots are the result of subtle railroading), and you've established an over-arching progression. Looks good.
Archangel62 11-30-06, 06:29 PM	All of my players are pretty new, so, I'm wanting to hope to foster roleplaying into my game over combat. By tonight, I should have a rough idea of what each of my players will be running, then I can map out the first adventure, which will be their graduation from school, they have to go into a dungeon and work together to fetch out their diplomas. From there, they will be hired by the BBEG, its not a choice on their part, I am going with an above suggestion where after schooling, the party is hired for for a short ammount of time to sort of test their abilities and to expand their horizons, mainly so that they can gain a level or two. Anyway, by the end of the first adventure, they should have graduated from arcane school, and handed one of my like four intelegent items over to the BBEG. Does that sound lose enough, but planned enough, to let the next adventure just sort of grow out of the first? That might be how I do it actually...I'll create a small portion of my world, two dungeons, the school, and a medium sized town/city, then from there let the game sort of just grow as the characters grow. That can work well, one other possibility might be having a sort of program where students pay of their loans by being agents of the school. Search out items and things like that, maybe the first few dungeons are simple loot and scoot missions which would also give them some experience and strategy. Plus the school as a patron means that while they can also adventure on their own if things seem a bit stagnant the school can send them requests for a certain mission or crawl.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 06:31 PM	Thanks... How many NPCs should I go through and make to populate my school and town? Not everyone in the school or town is really important, but how many is a good number to make for the characters to interact with?
Archangel62 11-30-06, 06:34 PM	Thanks... How many NPCs should I go through and make to populate my school and town? Not everyone in the school or town is really important, but how many is a good number to make for the characters to interact with? Depends on the nature of the school, NPC population can mean anything, if you mean statted working NPCs... Headmaster of the school Masters for each school Representative who would give them jobs The rest should probably be more or less built as you go. See if they react to a certain piece of window dressing or have an argument with a shopkeeper or something like that. If so, make them an NPC that you keep around this is a trick I learned fairly fast.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 06:34 PM	That can work well, one other possibility might be having a sort of program where students pay of their loans by being agents of the school. Search out items and things like that, maybe the first few dungeons are simple loot and scoot missions which would also give them some experience and strategy. Plus the school as a patron means that while they can also adventure on their own if things seem a bit stagnant the school can send them requests for a certain mission or crawl. That has possibilities, but with that route, how would I introduced Roku, my BBEG, without having the school get ahold of the sword? I'm sure that the school wouldn't let a CE +6 Vorpal Unholy Longsword, thats intelegent also, go to the hands of Roku.
Archangel62 11-30-06, 06:39 PM	That has possibilities, but with that route, how would I introduced Roku, my BBEG, without having the school get ahold of the sword? I'm sure that the school wouldn't let a CE +6 Vorpal Unholy Longsword, thats intelegent also, go to the hands of Roku. Well, Roku might be a person who hired the school. The school might not just be doing missions for their own coffers and vaults. Roku, however smart or capable he is, also has agents that could use go-betweens to hire the academy and your players are the ones who got chosen for the jobs. It also gives the school plausible deniability, "We didn't do it, these foolish people did"
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 06:39 PM	Depends on the nature of the school, NPC population can mean anything, if you mean statted working NPCs... Headmaster of the school Masters for each school Representative who would give them jobs The rest should probably be more or less built as you go. See if they react to a certain piece of window dressing or have an argument with a shopkeeper or something like that. If so, make them an NPC that you keep around this is a trick I learned fairly fast. That list makes sense, and I like the idea of just making NPC's up as I go along when my players interact with them, it adds depth to the world doesn't it? Make it seem like the players are moving around the world, not the world around them. As for the teachers, how bout just the individual masters of each character as opposed to a general teacher for a given school?
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 06:41 PM	Well, Roku might be a person who hired the school. The school might not just be doing missions for their own coffers and vaults. Roku, however smart or capable he is, also has agents that could use go-betweens to hire the academy and your players are the ones who got chosen for the jobs. It also gives the school plausible deniability, "We didn't do it, these foolish people did" I designed him to have four agents to act as his underlings...they are Level 3, Lv6, Lv9, Lv12, and he's Lv15 right now...i'm gonna keep my main antagonists, primarily the agents, atleast three levels ahead of the party.
Archangel62 11-30-06, 06:51 PM	That list makes sense, and I like the idea of just making NPC's up as I go along when my players interact with them, it adds depth to the world doesn't it? Make it seem like the players are moving around the world, not the world around them. As for the teachers, how bout just the individual masters of each character as opposed to a general teacher for a given school? That would work, I mean like each teacher being a master of a particular school of magic, the idea being that specialists took advanced classes with them and things like that. As for his agents, the group might not be fighting his agents...yet. Make Roku a person who hires them through the school then, if they seem competant, hire them directly. Make him a very well paying patron but show them gradually what sort of person he is. Leave them with a choice, with him they can get wealth, power, and who knows what else even if they know it's wrong. Just an idea.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 06:56 PM	That ideas got potential, and would be interesting, but at the same time, I really want to run a "good" game because it seems that in every game I have played in lately, one or more players, myself included, was of an evil alignment and just kinda killed things and shrugged and walked off...or didn't even play up to the alignment, so I think before we ever put numbers to paper, the characters are going to flesh out a description of their characters, what they look like, their personality, that sort of thing. Whats your thought's on limiting alignment to any non-evil? Basically CN LN NG LG CG.
Archangel62 11-30-06, 07:00 PM	That ideas got potential, and would be interesting, but at the same time, I really want to run a "good" game because it seems that in every game I have played in lately, one or more players, myself included, was of an evil alignment and just kinda killed things and shrugged and walked off...or didn't even play up to the alignment, so I think before we ever put numbers to paper, the characters are going to flesh out a description of their characters, what they look like, their personality, that sort of thing. Whats your thought's on limiting alignment to any non-evil? Basically CN LN NG LG CG. I think it's a good idea, especially if this is your first time DMing. The thing is that it might be better to give the players a vested interest in being good. Maybe have them be local heroes and things like that, let them know what could happen to the places that they've come to love if the BBEG is left unopposed.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 07:10 PM	I think it's a good idea, especially if this is your first time DMing. The thing is that it might be better to give the players a vested interest in being good. Maybe have them be local heroes and things like that, let them know what could happen to the places that they've come to love if the BBEG is left unopposed. I was gonna make one of them king of the "good" country that the BBEG is trying to conqueor, but I'm not sure how to go about that...I know that to do it, they'll have to pull another one of my Intelegent Swords out of a stone, but I'm not sure how to decide it...I was almost thinking just an arbitrary dice roll at character generation gets a character a +5 or 10 to his str check to pull the sword, and let it go at that, and make the STR check at a DC25 or so...any thoughts?
Archangel62 11-30-06, 07:19 PM	I was gonna make one of them king of the "good" country that the BBEG is trying to conqueor, but I'm not sure how to go about that...I know that to do it, they'll have to pull another one of my Intelegent Swords out of a stone, but I'm not sure how to decide it...I was almost thinking just an arbitrary dice roll at character generation gets a character a +5 or 10 to his str check to pull the sword, and let it go at that, and make the STR check at a DC25 or so...any thoughts? Avoid something like that, simply because it will lead to a kind of railroad plot. The alternate weapon might be an idea but I'm not sure how wise it would be. Making one of them a king or overlord might be fun, but given what you've mentioned of the group in the past it seems like a bad idea because it can easily lead to arguments and complaints which can cause the game to break down. A better idea might be to make the BBEG powerful but most of their power is based on their items whereas the PCs had to struggle and seek for all of theirs. It also makes their victory that much more rewarding if they win without some super artifact counter weapon being the reason.
angel_raziel 11-30-06, 07:28 PM	Avoid something like that, simply because it will lead to a kind of railroad plot. The alternate weapon might be an idea but I'm not sure how wise it would be. Making one of them a king or overlord might be fun, but given what you've mentioned of the group in the past it seems like a bad idea because it can easily lead to arguments and complaints which can cause the game to break down. A better idea might be to make the BBEG powerful but most of their power is based on their items whereas the PCs had to struggle and seek for all of theirs. It also makes their victory that much more rewarding if they win without some super artifact counter weapon being the reason. That makes sense...no talking weapons for the party, and no throne. I'll talk to each player and work out why they would be good then.
Archangel62 11-30-06, 10:09 PM	That makes sense...no talking weapons for the party, and no throne. I'll talk to each player and work out why they would be good then. Well, if you want to have intelligent items in the game, go for it, just make sure that the item isn't a do-all or anything like that. And if they decide to found a kingdom, go for it, but giving one of them a noble title or something like that based on a diceroll could cause some major arguments of favortism or of the new 'king' ordering around other party members or threatening them with it. It also puts them more heavily in the spotlight, similar to soem super artifact item that is the only way to beat the BBEG. Trust me, I had to think about these a lot and made a lot of mistakes when I started DMing. A good thing to do is to ask why you want something to work the way it does in your world or if there is a plot specific point does it just alter the difficulty or will it mean 'win or lose the entire campaign'?