Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Ian Stark 08-21-05, 09:33 AM	Advice is needed. :D Good, bad or indifferent is excepted as this idea is only in the brainstorming phase and I'm not sure if it will work out. I am thinking about having my characters start out at ECL 20. (Will be first campaign DMed that I will be using 20th lvl characters and Epic 21+) The game world will be low magic. Now when I say low magic I mean it. Not only will items be scarce but so will casters, magical creatures, and spells as a whole. There will be a few Gods. Basically I'm going to go with three Gods. A good, neutral and evil one. Simple yet all inclusive. FYI the Neutral God will be more of a Gilean (Dragonlance) type God. Basically the one that watches/scribes events of all time. The other two I have not yet figured out. I would like to hear of some ideas on how to minimize the magic part(cap?). 1.) Spells in general for all classes. I.E. Divine and Arcane. I was considering a cap so to speak like no spell above 4th level or something. Which would you suggest or a better way then a cap? Perhaps, limiting to a few schools? Maybe just minimizing the amount of spells per day available? 2.) Magical items. I was thinking only the highest of spellcasters could do this. As there are few it also takes a lot more to create an item than a week in the shop. No more taking life energy (EXP) to create, just an ancient art almost lost. Gods created the few artifacts btw. A cap of say +2 enchantment or so for all items. (besides artifacts) Not sure. 3.) Undead wil be created from a disease, not negative energy. More of a Resident Evil/lycanthrope type of undead where they are contagious. 4.) Dragons will be the more powerful creatures, if not THE most powerful creatures. They will have the higher spells that all other races won't as they have been around for a very long time as opposed to the races/creatures in existance. They will NOT be mounts or serve any mortal race. When I recieved my Dragonlance Campaign Setting book I was ready to use the "low magic" world from the Age of Mortals time frame. However I was very dissapointed to see that a Mystic (only spellcasters around) could cast all 9 levels of Cleric spells like it was nothing. :rolleyes: That was not how I saw it when reading the Age of Mortals trilogy. So let me know if you have any input. Again any input will be helpful as I am piecing this together and seeing if it is feasible. (I'm not ignoring posts I will be sleeping for a bit. Midnight shift ;) )
Discordia 08-21-05, 11:01 AM	Re #1: Rather than capping the spells available (which would seriously hinder Wizards and Sorcerors), just make it more difficult to cast spells. Most arcane spells in D & D are cast more-or-less instantaneously - change it so that spells of a certain power level require some form of ritual to use, perhaps even extending the casting time to a round or more. Or, change the spell components so that they are rare and expensive. The wizard's gonna think twice before he casts the fireball if he knows that the only source of ingredients is ten miles away.
Schmendrick 08-21-05, 12:00 PM	Re #1: Rather than capping the spells available (which would seriously hinder Wizards and Sorcerors), just make it more difficult to cast spells. Most arcane spells in D & D are cast more-or-less instantaneously - change it so that spells of a certain power level require some form of ritual to use, perhaps even extending the casting time to a round or more. Or, change the spell components so that they are rare and expensive. The wizard's gonna think twice before he casts the fireball if he knows that the only source of ingredients is ten miles away. Ooh... 1 round/level casting time... :devil: In any case, I think the whole point of a low-magic campaign is in "hindering" wizards and sorcerors (and whatnot). Realistically, though, magic actually becomes a bit more powerful due to its scarcity. ...and in a low-magic campaign where magic is capped like this, few people are going to be sticking with a caster class far enough to get crippled much by it. If the spells are capped at 4th level, you won't see many 9th level wizards, but you'll probably see quite a few Wiz8's with levels in fighter, rogue, etc. In any case, have you thought about how clerics are going to work? If undead are controlled not by positive/negative energy, will turning/rebuking still work? Running a low magic world means cutting more than just magical beasts; any monster with magical abilities is going to be tougher than it otherwise "should" be. My advice in a low-magic setting, unless you want to put a whole lot of work into it, is to keep most of your encounters to NPCs instead of monsters. Animals and vermin are ok, and after that stick to low LA humanoids (maybe a few monstrous ones) with class levels.
Lord Ian Stark 08-22-05, 11:59 PM	(Sorry for the late reply. Sleep after working overtime and finally getting to see Charlie and the Chocolate Factory make the time fly. :D ) Realistically, though, magic actually becomes a bit more powerful due to its scarcity Hmm, I like this. A lot less spells but the ones they do cast that take a full round action are more potent. Nice. Running a low magic world means cutting more than just magical beasts; any monster with magical abilities is going to be tougher than it otherwise "should" be. My advice in a low-magic setting, unless you want to put a whole lot of work into it, is to keep most of your encounters to NPCs instead of monsters. Animals and vermin are ok, and after that stick to low LA humanoids (maybe a few monstrous ones) with class levels. Yes, very true. I am going to be taking out the "magical" part of DR and using weapon "type" or metal used in the making to be the overall DR for those creatures. I like the idea of typical races as NPC enemies and think that too is a good idea for the majority of encounters. I have run this idea with my party and they are all for it. I'm just left brainstorming the mechanics. Keep in mind I'm going for an ECL 20 party. And I know most people will use heavy melee characters except for the two hardcore spellcasters that always play a Cleric and a Mage. They will probrably take the levels needed to max there spells like a normal 20th level spellcaster would however they will cap out before 20 levels and add other level types. Perhaps I am about to bite off more than I can chew? We'll see. I just don't want to run an Epic game with the full Magic of 3.5 D&D. Battles would be overwith quick as I allow all WOTC books in my game for flavor/choices to make there characters more unique then mundane.
Solik 08-23-05, 12:14 AM	EDIT: Oops. If I'd read the above post closer, I could have avoided making a senseless post. Carry on :p
Didge 08-23-05, 01:39 AM	Just as an aside, I'm running a low/mid level magic world currently. I like low magic worlds as they add a bit more for me. God forbid, but one day i might actually run a high magic campaign, but I don't want to coddle my players too much. ;) Anyway, a note that seems to have worked well for balancing factors for the lower levels (though from the sound of it you're going to bypass that) is the below guide for magic items. As a guide for magic items in my world I go by level of the PC. For every four levels they should have access to a +1 item. Thus at 12th level they would have the opportunity to purchase/find/make/etc. a +3 item. For things without a "+" I just use a general price guideline. This makes for more interesting choices and ensures the players don't go running around with their +X Sword of kick-assery. As a general rule for magical items +1 is common (60%), +2 is uncommon (25%), +3 is rare (10%), +4 is extremely rare (4%), and a +5 item is nearly unheard of (1%). The percentages are what I use as a guide if a PC wants to buy a magic item from someone. So generally speaking if someone says they've got a magic sword. Odds are it's a +1. Now it may have some other enhancements on it, but generally that's the case. Of course, there's always the exception for the above rule. Magic itself (from a caster's standpoint) has been taken care of via the general outline of my background story. Arcane casters have a negative stereotype about them. The general commoner knows of magic, fears it, and generally avoids anyone announcing they can "cast" magic. Meanwhile there is a master guild of magic that tightly controls spells and every mage that learns a potentially harmful spell has their name put onto a list (much like one does when purchasing a firearm). While the clergy have strong ties with their general belief and they know the gods will take an active role (revoking spells/abilities) if their followers step out of line. What's this mean in game? It means that for every action there is a re-action so if the mage wants to tout his ability to cast fireballs all through town, he can. He might just have the local mages guild haul him in though for abusing his power. If it's a cleric and he's abusing his power, a fellow from his clergy might be sent to stop the renegade. But to each there own. My players like this style, your's may not. Just some things I've worked on.
Lord Ian Stark 08-23-05, 01:54 AM	Ohh nice Didge. I forgot about using the Baulder's Gate method of magic being under permit only style. I am possibly thinking magic warps reality and too much can cause chaos. But if that was so then the demented would have done this already and screwed up the landscape. I guess that would be like a Darksun game world. Hmm...
Art_Tillary 08-23-05, 08:58 AM	Ohh nice Didge. I forgot about using the Baulder's Gate method of magic being under permit only style. I would think that would work fine in towns, but what about out in the wilderness where there is no law enforcement and nobody to complain? AT
Phrennzy 08-23-05, 11:13 AM	Have you asked your players for ideas? Do they know you plan a low magic campaign? Personally, I have no desire for one. Too much would have to be left out. I mean, classic D&D stuff has to be left out - Displacer Beasts - no more displacement Trolls - no more regeneration Medusa/Cockatrice/Basilisk - all out. No Beholders, no demons, no devils...ugh. Too much work to make work. Which is why I would run it by your players. 5 heads working on the same setting is much better than 1.
Lord Ian Stark 08-23-05, 02:49 PM	I would think that would work fine in towns, but what about out in the wilderness where there is no law enforcement and nobody to complain? AT Yes sir, they would have total feedom to blast away. This is why I wanted the over all magic numbing idea. Displacer Beasts - no more displacement Trolls - no more regeneration Medusa/Cockatrice/Basilisk - all out. No Beholders, no demons, no devils...ugh. Which is why I would run it by your players. 5 heads working on the same setting is much better than 1. Beholders and displacer beasts would probrably be out. However outsiders are not magical. Just from another plane. Also supernatural and extraordinary abilities are in, just spell-like abilities will more than likely be out. Yeah I passed it by my group like a movie preview and they were all for it. I don't want to get with them on too much as I like to keep things a sectret until game time.
sabrewolf 08-23-05, 03:48 PM	Well, first off, half of what i was thinking on saying Didge already spoke out. I liked his opinion on magic itens and all... Now my :twocents: For magic users - be them magi, clerics or druids - iŽd try a simpler aproach instead of twisting the mechanics. The classes were built already balanced so changing them requires lots of thinking and rebalancing. An aproach would be apply a requirement ratio, like requesting 3 levels of any class to take 1 of a spellcaster so a 20lv char would cap at 5lv caster... Another would be to change the caster requirement (amidst other tweaks) of a few prestige class to enable them for non-casters.. Also, iŽd keep the half-casters like the ranger or paladin, since they are low magic. But in case the ratio is used, iŽd compare the power of these two with the caster power of a class / caster character so limited.
Ravenseye 08-23-05, 04:01 PM	1.) Spells in general for all classes. I.E. Divine and Arcane. I was considering a cap so to speak like no spell above 4th level or something. Which would you suggest or a better way then a cap? Perhaps, limiting to a few schools? Maybe just minimizing the amount of spells per day available? I think magic becomes more difficult and rarer when you ditch Sorcerer magic enteriely and make all magic spellbook, and component based. I wouldn't change the number of spells they have per day, which would unbalance the class entirely. I'd just make it so learnign spells every level isn't automatic. They have to find them in other spellbooks. Then their spell selection is rarer, and they also have to find the components, which means finding herbology shops which should be extremely rare, or even going out and having to take time to go get the components and search for them. Wizards should highly protect their knowledge in a low-magic world where high-magic is possible. No sharing spellbooks etc. 2.) Magical items. I was thinking only the highest of spellcasters could do this. As there are few it also takes a lot more to create an item than a week in the shop. No more taking life energy (EXP) to create, just an ancient art almost lost. Gods created the few artifacts btw. A cap of say +2 enchantment or so for all items. (besides artifacts) Not sure. Simliar to above I'd disallow the feats that automatically allow creation of magical items. Or you have to take the feat, but you still need to learn 'recipes'. Just being aware that a +1 Longsword exists doesn't mean you know how to take a masterwork weapon and enchant it. You need to learn and find 'recipes' just like you would for a spell, then you'll need to get the components for it as well, and pay the money and experience. No making an icy burst dagger +3 for your friend just because he'd like one. If you don't know how to enchant something with either icy burst or a +3 you can't do it. 3.) Undead wil be created from a disease, not negative energy. More of a Resident Evil/lycanthrope type of undead where they are contagious. I like this idea. Would more powerfull undead have a more powerfull disease and fortitude save? Also would cure spells still hurt them if they're not made of negative energy? what about a cure disease spell? 4.) Dragons will be the more powerful creatures, if not THE most powerful creatures. They will have the higher spells that all other races won't as they have been around for a very long time as opposed to the races/creatures in existance. They will NOT be mounts or serve any mortal race. Again, I like this. With what I listed above they'd have all the spells simply by them being older, and around longer, killing lots of mages along the way. In addition to the above I'd say to check out the Dark Sun world. If you really want to make magic difficult maybe make the world anti-magic also. If powerfull magic exists, but people don't use or know it it's got to be for a reason. For instance you could have a world which is very religious and divine magic is highly used (though most priests only know things like consecrate which won't do damage etc) and wizards are looked upon as servants of anti-relgious forces so wizards are underground and secretive. Look into the 'Veiled Alliance' aspect of the Dark Sun world to get a concept of Wizards existing in secret. Or there could have been some sort of world spanning magical war which ended with a massively powered Mage's Disjunction cast by an artifact which disabled most magic in the world (*think massive EMP pulse removing our technology*). Magic swords became regular swords. Spellbooks detonated. Dogs and Cats living together. Mass hysteria. After it the few wizards surviving that had the spell mastery feat were able to transcribe and create new spellbooks. They wrote down their spells, and enchantment knowledge. Some magical items survived, but very few, call it 1% from before. Some artifiacts remained. Some spellbooks buried deep in dungeons may have been shielded.... Man I like this world...i"m going to jot some of these ideas down for my next campaign.
Mirikon 08-23-05, 10:29 PM	I am thinking about having my characters start out at ECL 20. (Will be first campaign DMed that I will be using 20th lvl characters and Epic 21+) The game world will be low magic. Now when I say low magic I mean it. Not only will items be scarce but so will casters, magical creatures, and spells as a whole. There will be a few Gods. Basically I'm going to go with three Gods. A good, neutral and evil one. Simple yet all inclusive. FYI the Neutral God will be more of a Gilean (Dragonlance) type God. Basically the one that watches/scribes events of all time. The other two I have not yet figured out. Well, IMHO, this takes a lot of the fun out of high level games. But then, I typically play casters. It may be fun for your melee types, though, until you run into some of the big bads. Like the Tarrasque. 1.) Spells in general for all classes. I.E. Divine and Arcane. I was considering a cap so to speak like no spell above 4th level or something. Which would you suggest or a better way then a cap? Perhaps, limiting to a few schools? Maybe just minimizing the amount of spells per day available? Igh. If you don't want the casters, just say no casters, except for people like the bard. You're pretty much killing the entire point of being a high level caster. 2.) Magical items. I was thinking only the highest of spellcasters could do this. As there are few it also takes a lot more to create an item than a week in the shop. No more taking life energy (EXP) to create, just an ancient art almost lost. Gods created the few artifacts btw. A cap of say +2 enchantment or so for all items. (besides artifacts) Not sure. Again, pretty much killing the fun (for me, at least) of high levels. 3.) Undead wil be created from a disease, not negative energy. More of a Resident Evil/lycanthrope type of undead where they are contagious. This I can see working. I like it, at any level. 4.) Dragons will be the more powerful creatures, if not THE most powerful creatures. They will have the higher spells that all other races won't as they have been around for a very long time as opposed to the races/creatures in existance. They will NOT be mounts or serve any mortal race. Eh. Maybe. When I recieved my Dragonlance Campaign Setting book I was ready to use the "low magic" world from the Age of Mortals time frame. However I was very dissapointed to see that a Mystic (only spellcasters around) could cast all 9 levels of Cleric spells like it was nothing. :rolleyes: That was not how I saw it when reading the Age of Mortals trilogy. So let me know if you have any input. Again any input will be helpful as I am piecing this together and seeing if it is feasible. (I'm not ignoring posts I will be sleeping for a bit. Midnight shift ;) ) Honestly, it doesn't sound to me like you wanna play a high level game. It sounds to me like you wanna relive the lowest levels, but with massive amounts of hitpoints so you can throw bigger stuff at the party. To be honest, I couldn't picture myself playing in a campaign like this. Good luck with it if you decide to go with it, though. I just don't think it will work out very well.
Didge 08-24-05, 01:50 AM	Ohh nice Didge. I forgot about using the Baulder's Gate method of magic being under permit only style. They had that in Baulder's Gate? I had no idea. I played the first one, but that was a long time ago. I just thought the idea of magic having a permit was fitting with the low magic "feel" of the game. Ugh, so much for being original. ;) I am possibly thinking magic warps reality and too much can cause chaos. But if that was so then the demented would have done this already and screwed up the landscape. I guess that would be like a Darksun game world. Hmm... Interesting. When reading this I had a really strange idea. I seem to recall a system somewhere (3rd party or homebrew or something) that you might like. Magic exists in its natural form and can be handled by those gifted in arcane or divine arts. The only problem is casting magic, i.e. manipulating it is very exhausting on the body because of the strain of channeling the magic. Allow your caster classes normal progression. Now to cast a spell they will need to make a FOR save base 10+1 per spell level. If they fail they are fatigued. If they fail their second FOR save, then they are considered exhausted. This gives them the ability to cast one spell guarenteed, even if they fail their FOR save then they're only fatigued. So if push came to shove, they could cast another spell but become exhausted. Pros: Magic, when cast in combat, is rare because most people are not going to be flinging magic about unless they've devoted a build specifically for this, i.e., the Feat Greater Fortitude, high constitution stat, etc. Cons: The fact that they are now 1 spell shot wonders and once spent are done. Of course you'd have to look at those spells that refreshed the fatigue away or prestige classes that allowed the PC to ignore fatigue. These would be a might bit unbalanced. Another idea, stray shot from this one is that by casting magic it drains them of HP's. It could be that the it is as simple as spell level cast = hit point loss, or perhaps spell level cast (x2) = hit point loss. This has the advantage of allowing casters to still have the ability to cast multiple spells but now it is a choice of...do I really need to cast that spell? Con: You'd have to do something about magical healing. Otherwise the cleric could cure light wound the caster back into action. Idea: Make the hit point loss subdual and that it can only be recoved naturally. Effects that speed up the natural healing rate, such as Feats, spells (may, may not?) allow for increased hitpoint return. I'd definitely make it so that if for any manner they managed to return their hitpoints etc. they'd still be limited to their normal spells allowed per day though. Ok, I'm tired, I'm going to bed. Before I responded to this I spent 3 hours on my hands and knees on my roof removing moss buildup with a wire brush. I'm exhausted.
Kalanth 08-24-05, 02:49 AM	My homebrew is a rather complex mix of high and low magic, it can be confusing at times. ;) However, let me take a stab here with some of the things I do on my world. 1.) Spells in general for all classes. I.E. Divine and Arcane. I was considering a cap so to speak like no spell above 4th level or something. Which would you suggest or a better way then a cap? Perhaps, limiting to a few schools? Maybe just minimizing the amount of spells per day available? Limiting spells is ok, but at the same time I would not suggest it. Its ok to allow the high level spells, acess to all spells, and so on, but where are these characters going to learn them? Wizards have to be taught the spells, or make them on their own. In essence, treat the high level spells as spells that the wizard had invented, if they want more then they must spent so much time creating a new spell, use the rules for making magic wands for this same reason, and it places an emphasis on down time and will give them respect for the low magic in this sense. As for the divine casters, one suggestion might be to remove the cleric and paladin (or spellcasting paladin) from the options. I know your a DL fan, seen you post in the DL section, so grab your DLCS and use the mystic in place of the Cleric. Stick to it very strictly here, make it a well known point that Divine spells don't come from the gods, but instead from the person. Make the Sorcerer the same way, and of course you can allow Psionics but I would actually limit that to wilders and nothing more (easier to explain a wild psionic than a trained one). 2.) Magical items. I was thinking only the highest of spellcasters could do this. As there are few it also takes a lot more to create an item than a week in the shop. No more taking life energy (EXP) to create, just an ancient art almost lost. Gods created the few artifacts btw. A cap of say +2 enchantment or so for all items. (besides artifacts) Not sure. The cap is a good idea, keep the bonus low, but I would go with +3. This is because the abilities of the items are limited in that sense, since you can never have an ability over +2 in an item (since magic items must be +1 to have abilities). Place an emphasis on rare metals more than magic abilities, since you are still going to have monsters with damage reduction to items, but it makes it more fair for the high level characters to have access to the silver, cold iron, adamantine and so on since they wont really have the Magical Items. Also, in my homebrew and all Dragonlance games I run I restrict the PCs to four or five magic items each. I don't sit there and kick and scream if they picked up 6 and make them erase it, instead I plan out 20 items over the course of the entire campaign, and thats it. In items it must be known that I do not count potions or scrolls, but it might be a good idea for you to include them since you want to go slightly more extreme than me. Make sure they don't sell the items in cities, and make it damned hard to sell them as well. People just can't afford them (both ways) so there is little demand for them. 3.) Undead wil be created from a disease, not negative energy. More of a Resident Evil/lycanthrope type of undead where they are contagious. This is a solid idea, just be sure to blur the line of similarity between the game and Resident Evil. Some more options available would be to make the world itself of a different base than the game, in other words the planet is an untapped magical energy source that no one ever thought of (or maybe a nearby planet or moon). This would result in corpses being mysteriously raised in certain areas, or if its the moon that causes it, then there could be a special day in the year where those souls that left the world early or angry come back from the dead, like a Day of the Dead, but with less celebration than the real Day of the Dead has. 4.) Dragons will be the more powerful creatures, if not THE most powerful creatures. They will have the higher spells that all other races won't as they have been around for a very long time as opposed to the races/creatures in existance. They will NOT be mounts or serve any mortal race. Return dragons to their rightfull place, in other words, which is fine. PCs should not be hunting down a dragon every other session anyways. I would grant them spell like abilities in place of spell casting, treat them more like a sorcerer in their manifestation, but don't restrict them to simply arcane, toss in the occasional Divine spell as well. Make their spell list unlimited and they quickly become twice as powerful. When I recieved my Dragonlance Campaign Setting book I was ready to use the "low magic" world from the Age of Mortals time frame. However I was very dissapointed to see that a Mystic (only spellcasters around) could cast all 9 levels of Cleric spells like it was nothing. :rolleyes: That was not how I saw it when reading the Age of Mortals trilogy. Personally, when running a game in 2nd ed shortly after the Choas War, I simply restricted the caster to 4th level as a Wizard and no spells as a cleric (at the time, mystic was not even a thought). However, I have no problem with the mystic casting up to 9th level for the single fact that the power is intait in the being. Maybe use the curse of the magi on the mystic when casting a spell above 4th level to restric their use. A mystic that uses that Heal spell or Finger of Death and then dropps unconcious is going to think twice the next time they do it. So let me know if you have any input. Again any input will be helpful as I am piecing this together and seeing if it is feasible. (I'm not ignoring posts I will be sleeping for a bit. Midnight shift ;) ) Cheater, I am working a midnight shift and I have to be up all night doing paper work. . . :)
Lord Ian Stark 08-24-05, 04:54 AM	Wow. Great input peeps. Thanks for the many thought out posts. Especially for those on midnight shift or scrubbing roofs and still posting. :P I think I need to focus on why I want a low magic world and go from there. My party wants to play an epic game as we never have in all these years. So it's in my lap as the other DM's won't touch it. As I said above our players make 14th or 15th level mages that wipe my enemies out in a round or so. Even ones with high SR and so forth. I couldn't imagine an epic game with even more powerful spells and metamagic stuff going on. :crazy: Other posts on the crazy killer mages topics say to attack the casters first, grapple, high SR creatures, beholders, golems etc. They still walk over that stuff as there are usually at least 3 casters if not more in the 6 - 7 person party. Needless to say they are experienced players and well now you get an idea of my minor dilemma. Does everyone have fun you ask? Oh sure. But in my view playing a game in GOD mode gets old after a while. :D So let me answer some of your comments. An approach would be apply a requirement ratio, like requesting 3 levels of any class to take 1 of a spell caster so a 20lv char would cap at 5lv caster... Simple, elegant, and the players won't fell "gimped" as they can focus on another class or PRC to augment there casting ability. (However the 5 caster levels total include PrC) Hmm... Simplicity is often the easiest/smartest route. I like this idea. Would more powerful undead have a more powerful disease and fortitude save? Also would cure spells still hurt them if they're not made of negative energy? what about a cure disease spell? Also Schmendrick brought up the turning undead issue. I want to think the Undead contagion has been created in an alchemical lab where evil peeps were creating WMD. So the different types of undead spawn from the different tests of creatures/potency etc. It got out of hand or was leaked somehow kinda like how they say the Aids virus was spread. Good questions and thoughts here. Instead of a God's divine power flooding positive energy I would say it's used through a certain catalyst. Like Belladonna to a werewolf. Perhaps the undead "plague" has a cure if the bitten is administered an herbal concoction prior to say, 24 hours from contact? Let's say an herbal paste made from a special plant is needed. This plant (as a spell component) and the cure disease spell will cure afflicted but not full undead. I.E. 24+hrs of contact. Death seems like it will be permanent in my world. Will make peeps think twice before taking risks. Turning them though. Hmm. Let me ponder this. Seeing how clerics of 5th level only will mean mostly turning and not much destroying... Or there could have been some sort of world spanning magical war which ended with a massively powered Mage's Disjunction cast by an artifact which disabled most magic in the world I think you may have sparked something here. I smell epic quest. An ancient war that created a new "moon" so to speak or maybe a huge portal/rift. Perhaps this too was an experiment gone wrong, or a clash in the fabric of the planes. Maybe this portal-like structure or moon saps all magic from the land to maintain/or eat it. This will work good with Didge's idea of spells becoming taxing on the body. Basically to use a spell you have to force the magic that flows from your cast to do your bidding and not be sucked into the void. Oooh daddy likes. ;) Hmm, how strenuous is the casting on the mind and body. Fort save of 15+ spell level (If I saw it right this makes 3nd level spells the highest level for the cleric and wizard). (Keep in mind the PC's start at lvl 20) Failure the first time makes you fatigued. After that, failure will sap life energy as the rift's pull is powerful. After 8 hours rest you are fine and again can miss a cast without error. (besides fatigue) The dragons have an innate defense against this magic eating rift and are not affected as bad as other races. Some say they may have done this to the world? The Gods are gone too. Whatever the rift is that looks like the aurora borealis in the sky seems to have messed with the Gods too. Did they create the rift? Who knows. Everything is speculation until the PC's learn more. Mystics are in but are capped at 5th level like all other spell casters. Thanks Kalanth. Mirikon I understand what your saying about just taking out all spell casters but that doesn't really explain much as a reason for it happening. You have to remember, our group has three games going on at all times and we hot seat DM from week to week. So the spell casters can get there spells-casting on two out of every three weeks. :D Keep the ideas flowing as my imagination tank is being fueled/augmented by your great examples and ideas. :D
Cantankerous 08-24-05, 05:45 AM	Presently my three core PC's, the so called Champions of Chaos, a Barbarian*18/Bard*4 named Haclan, a Cleric*12/Thaumaturgist*5/Hierophant*4 named Helas and a Fighter*4/Wizard*16/Arch Mage*1 named Alandera, in search of the Eye of Vecna (for complicated plot driven reasons, not to own it) have found themselves in a position where they had to abandon ALL their magic items to step through a magic devouring Gate to another Iteration of Reality. Thus, presently, these three Epic heroes have found themselves in a world where there is almost no magic. The very metaphysic by which it works is different. Alandera and Haclan have discovered that ALL spells of Arcane or Bardic sort, have a tendency to simply spontaneously fail if they are not cast as part of rituals. The progression of it is as follows. The Spells level squared is the percent chance of failure, plus any other modifiers involved. So, if she were to try to cast fifth level spell (25% chance for it to spontaneously fail) in studded leather armor (15% chance for spell failure) she has a 40% chance the spell simply doesn't work. Thankfully Haclan needn't worry about casting in armor problems and his second level spells only have a 4% chance of spontaneous failure. Likewise, Helas has discovered that Divine magic is more difficult to channel. First, she is a Cleric of the "Church of Man", espousing the Divine nature of Man itself and man's potential to become gods. That particular ideal is nowhere to be found on the Crystal Sphere they find themselves on as an organized religious ideal, so it is less potent. She must spend three times as long recovering her spells as normal. That is to say that the "recent casting limit" for Divine spells is TWENTYFOUR hours there, not eight. It takes far longer to "clean the power channels" from pror use. Also, Divine magic works as normal at 1st through 3rd levels, but at 4th through 6th levels it takes more time and Concentration. Basicly all spells move up a factor in casting time. So a 5th level spell that casts as a standard action will take a full round action. One that takes a full round action will take a number of full round actions equal to the spell level, so 5 full round actions to cast a fifth level Divine spell and otherwise the time factor is a multiple of the spell level as well. Thus it takes 40 minutes, not 10, to cast Lesser Planar Ally. And finally, 7th through 9th level Divine magics MUST be cast via Rituals that take a factor of 10 times spell level LONGER to complete. Thus an Anti-Magic Field takes 80 rounds to prepare, but at least the Cleric can move while doing so. Obviously this negates the motility of most offensive magics, conversely making defensive ones stronger. Too, Alandera and Helas have discovered that making magic items here is FAR more strenuos than in their own multiversal Iteration... basicly it costs TEN times as many XPs to create ANY magical item. This means tremendously few potions are made, and the ones that are seldom are sold. The few magic items made are powerful ones. There are extremely few +1 swords for instance that aren't family heirlooms or in the hands of their creators. It simply doesn't make sense to invest 400 hard earned experience points to simply sell the sword off for even the triple standard value that magic items fetch there. Upon arriving, before they had the new metaphysic of the place figured out, Helas actually had to chase down a Gnoll and beat him unconscious barehanded. It was riot, both for me as DM and for Helas's player. Alandera, who (IC only) had become convinced that things of less than extra planar nature barely existed for her, was bowled over and stomped by a Gnoll riding a horse analouge. A single pair of CR1 Gnolls on "horse"back, while never endangering the PC's for an instant, provided them enough of a short term challenge (mostly in trying to prevent them from escaping) that they instantly became cautious. In many ways both myself and my players are enjoying this MORE than we were the Epic hijinks they were up to. As of this writing, the three of them are sitting in a tavern where Helas just criticly failed her Diplomacy roll (she rolled a one) while the NPC she was trying to cozen into believing that the three are members of an Evil society bent on the destruction of the local good aligned Church rolled a twenty on his Sense Motive roll, stood and shouted "Infedils!" while pointing at Helas and her two companions... in a place chock full of members of the local Diabolic Church. I may have the first bar fight on my hands that I've had in fifteen levels with this bunch, all three basicly unarmed (as are most of the other tavern patrons) against more than two dozen locals. I left off there for the night to let the PC's stew a bit. It likely won't be much of a fuss, although they may do the wise thing and run for their lives. Why smart? As the tavern is smack dab in the center of a town where the Diabolic Citadel of Geryon is infernally grand and out in the open while the local Church of Ascal (sort of a Pelor derivative) is held in hiding in the back room of the local grain and feed store, even if Haclan and the other two stack the tavern patrons about like cordwood, they aren't the only ones around... It's a pain in the butt to scale the encounters well in such a situation. The game itself isn't designed well for it. If I were to set even a decent CR15 encounter loose on them, they'd be in serious trouble, while they'd normally ho-hum one with all thier gear. So far it's been fun, but beware! It's all too easy to over do it against a bunch of high level adventurers sans magic items. Isshia
psionichamster 08-24-05, 07:31 AM	friend of mine ran a game with a similar idea IIRC, there was a great cataclysm, the world was almost destroyed, and in that massacare, the magic of the world went bye-bye. there are 3 sorcerers in this world, i believe. and the PC's one of them. cast based on CON (Concentration is CON based, remember), give the sorc d10, and every spell cast drains lvl^2 hp. no save, although false HP (like Aid, False Life, or Vampiric Touch give you) count towards the life drain. items are scarce, since there are few creators...or you can give them specific items/gear they can use. since they're adventuring, it gives them another reason to search that ancient tomb and all-around dungeon over yonder. motivate them to fear even common enemies (ECL 20 vs 2 gricks, for example...DR 10/magic, and they're hosed, although i believe you were planning on metals/weapon type DR only...) namaste' the hamster
Mirikon 08-24-05, 11:47 AM	I think I need to focus on why I want a low magic world and go from there. My party wants to play an epic game as we never have in all these years. So it's in my lap as the other DM's won't touch it. As I said above our players make 14th or 15th level mages that wipe my enemies out in a round or so. Even ones with high SR and so forth. I couldn't imagine an epic game with even more powerful spells and metamagic stuff going on. :crazy: I think your approach would cause a problem with your party, then. Since they obviously like spellcasters, and want to play epic, then it would seem to me that they are looking for some epic spellcasting goodness. Your approach is like giving someone who asked for sweet tea a cup of unsweet, with salt instead of sugar added in. Other posts on the crazy killer mages topics say to attack the casters first, grapple, high SR creatures, beholders, golems etc. They still walk over that stuff as there are usually at least 3 casters if not more in the 6 - 7 person party. Needless to say they are experienced players and well now you get an idea of my minor dilemma. Does everyone have fun you ask? Oh sure. But in my view playing a game in GOD mode gets old after a while. :D You forgot the number 1 way to deal with casters. Other casters. As for the rest, I think you should have a long talk with your party before setting on this course, because it seems to me that they WANT to play ubermages, and you don't want to deal with them. If that's the case, just play a low level game. Simple, elegant, and the players won't fell "gimped" as they can focus on another class or PRC to augment there casting ability. (However the 5 caster levels total include PrC) Hmm... Simplicity is often the easiest/smartest route. I'd feel gimped, if I wanted to play a spellcaster and you did this to me. If you don't want the spellcasters, just tell the party no spellcasters, and be done with it. Even more simple. Mirikon I understand what your saying about just taking out all spell casters but that doesn't really explain much as a reason for it happening. You have to remember, our group has three games going on at all times and we hot seat DM from week to week. So the spell casters can get there spells-casting on two out of every three weeks. No, I understand that. I'm just saying that if you don't want the high level magics in your game, you should consider disallowing the spellcasters altogether. This works a lot better than the spell level caps, or the other nerfs tossed around. And it isn't as insulting to the players who like to play spellcasters. Again, it is like giving them unsweet tea with salt in it when they asked for sweet, and then calling it sweet tea. From what you've told me about your group, though, it would seem that the group wants to go uber and whoop ass in epic levels, and nobody wants to run it, including you. I would honestly scrap the epic idea, until someone in your group wants to run an epic campaign with the high level magics, since that really is one of the biggest things about epic.
Sigurd van Norhusen 08-24-05, 01:15 PM	Well, let's see... I will try to offer some mechanical and background stops to magic. Pick and choose. First, Wizards/Sorcerers: 1) Guild membership with a strict code of conduct. Or a sorcerer-hunt. 2) W/S are forbidden from interfering in war or any other large-scale conflict, unless they are attacked beforehand in full knowledge that they are W/S. 3) No spells higher than 6th level, use the Bard progession table. 4) To do a spell they will have to do a concentration check of 10 + (level of spell^2). That is 11 for a 0-level spell and 46 for a 6th level spell, basically doable, but pretty dangerous at higher levels. Have bad stuff happens when it fails (if you have Wild Magic tables of any kind, by all means, use them!). 5) To compensate for that, you might either want to give them d6 instead of d4 and an item familiar instead of a normal familiar for wizards, while Sorcerers get bonus feats every 5 levels. 6) Also, add more low-level spells of the practical kind, or alternatively use rituals from UA/D20 modern. Say that they are only usable by W/S, because if people can't use magic, they can't use rituals. Now, Druids. 1) Only 1 Wildshape form for every 5 levels. Normal animals only. That would be 4 at level 20. 2) Scale down spell progression to that of a bard. 3) If you allow natural spell, I can't help you anyway. Clerics 1) No turn undead. From what I read, they couldn't use it anyway. 2) Either scale down their progression to level 6, or scale it down to level 7 or 8 and remove some of their armor proficiencies. Have them be more like priests, and less like warpriests. 3) Enforce a strict code of conduct: they may only act agressively against their deity's enemies, unless attacked first. Paladin/Ranger Use the no-spell variant from Unearthed Arcana (I think it was there).
Lord Ian Stark 08-24-05, 09:38 PM	Mirikon I talked with the party already about a low magic world and everyone was planning on not even being spellcasters initially. However with the limit on caster levels I see the spell caster players taking these levels and augmenting there melee/ranged character with them. If my players initially responded badly to the idea I wouldn't have even got this far. As I said, we have played D&D for many years and understand that high level play with full magic is quite crazy. Hence noone runs epic games. Magic isn't the only reason, but one of them. When I played second edition D&D I never got higher then the low teens in the years I played that. If I were to say just no PC casters and keep the world of D&D the same, it would be quite unbalanced in Epic IMO. To me that would be a bigger handicap then what I'm doing. The entire world is low magic, not just the party. And again two out of the three weeks they can cast spells all they want in the other games ran. Sigurd van Norhusen I may use some of your ideas. I like the idea of upping the HD for the casters since they are weak in spellcasting to begin with. Cantankerous that new level of play and different feel is what I'm going for like in your gameworld. motivate them to fear even common enemies (ECL 20 vs 2 gricks, for example...DR 10/magic, and they're hosed, although i believe you were planning on metals/weapon type DR only...) There will be DR/Magic but mostly metal type DR. The few magic ones are the tough ones since they will all be DR/magic and (insert metal type or alignment).