Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mdock2003 12-04-06, 03:54 PM	All I want as a DM and Player is .... 1. to find a group that doesn't want to play evil characters all the time 2. to find a group that actually cares enough about their characters enough to think up a back story... even 1 paragraph.. 3. to find a group that cares enough about their characters to actually use a prestige class (and actually knows what it is) rather than a multiclass ranger/fighter/thief/sorcerer 4. to find a group that will actually buy their own rule books 5. to find a group that doesn't attack first 6. to find a group that at least knows the character creation rules. 7. to find a group that will spend more time playing and less time fighting amongst themselves. 8. to find a group that will actually do the right thing because it's right and not for the reward. 9. to find a group that doesn't go straight to the tavern/Inn as soon as they get to town. 10. to find a group that is happy using the basic/core races and doesn't try to munchkin up their PC's by using half-(insert incredibly powerful creature here) so that they can be the most powerful in the group. 11. to find a group where others don't mind being the DM for a while
Archmage Atrus 12-04-06, 04:49 PM	"1. to find a group that doesn't want to play evil characters all the time" Stop playing with 12 - 16 year olds. Seriously. "2. to find a group that actually cares enough about their characters enough to think up a back story... even 1 paragraph." Stop playing so many MMOs/recruiting from MMO base players. "3. to find a group that cares enough about their characters to actually use a prestige class (and actually knows what it is) rather than a multiclass ranger/fighter/thief/sorcerer" You're the DM: Teach them. "4. to find a group that will actually buy their own rule books" Why? They're not all that necessary with sites like http://www.d20srd.org around. "5. to find a group that doesn't attack first" As opposed to waiting to be attacked? "6. to find a group that at least knows the character creation rules." See 3, above. "7. to find a group that will spend more time playing and less time fighting amongst themselves." Meh. Read yourself some Critical Miss. http://www.criticalmiss.com "8. to find a group that will actually do the right thing because it's right and not for the reward." See 1, above. "9. to find a group that doesn't go straight to the tavern/Inn as soon as they get to town." Why? You'd rather they head to the blacksmithy? What the hell else is there to do in your town if not drink and sleep? "10. to find a group that is happy using the basic/core races and doesn't try to munchkin up their PC's by using half-(insert incredibly powerful creature here) so that they can be the most powerful in the group." If they don't know the character creation rules, they obviously can't know how to pick half-whatevers. Also, what's wrong with picking half-whatevers? Most half-races (Ogres being the clear exception) are terribly weak given their ECLs. "11. to find a group where others don't mind being the DM for a while" See 1, above. Or just go online.
Regular_K 12-04-06, 06:42 PM	I agree so much with #2! but Atrus, for #5, i believe he's talking about his party attacking and not talking or diplomacy.
mdock2003 12-05-06, 08:46 AM	Archmage Atrus, the really sad part is that most of the players are my age or older... in their 30's. Plus, this isn't only from my perspective as a DM it's also what I encounter if I play in other groups as a PC. Most people that I have encountered play something more akin to Hackmaster than D & D, none of whom are MMO players... most probably don't even know what that means. As the DM I have tried to teach them differently, and to a small degree I have had success, but they complain that it's not as fun to play "good" characters. I have even sweetened the deal by being overly generous with rewards to motivate them, but they still want to kill everything in sight. As for the attacking first bit, there are numerous times in a campaign where using your head instead of striking first can be beneficial. The default for most players seems to be kill it/them then figure out if it was a mistake or not. As for them not knowing the character creation rules, that is because they don't have their own books. They tend to look through my stuff or get on line and see these half- dragon, half-vampire templates and want to use them. I don't always let them, because some of them are not balanced and do tend to give one member of the party certain unfair advantages. Plus I get tired of always hearing " how many skill points do I have" and similar questions when 3-4 people are trying to role up new characters and all sharing my PHB. I started giving PHBs as gifts... it didn't help much... they usually leave them at home. There are tons of places in a town to gather information besides the tavern or inn. If not then that shows a lack of creativity on the DM's part, sure everyone uses it from time to time, but as the default it is a bit cliche and worn. My list was just me venting my frustration over what seems to be the majority of players that I run into and hoping that other Dm's are having similar issues. From that maybe some useful tips that I had not thought of would arise. In a small town there aren't many of us so it's slim pickings. Plus there are no FLGS and I don't have the time to drive over an hour to find players. I'm kind of stuck with what I have available, because the few good players I knew have moved far far away...
Kitaki 12-05-06, 08:54 AM	All I want as a DM and Player is .... 1. to find a group that doesn't want to play evil characters all the time 2. to find a group that actually cares enough about their characters enough to think up a back story... even 1 paragraph.. 3. to find a group that cares enough about their characters to actually use a prestige class (and actually knows what it is) rather than a multiclass ranger/fighter/thief/sorcerer 4. to find a group that will actually buy their own rule books 5. to find a group that doesn't attack first 6. to find a group that at least knows the character creation rules. 7. to find a group that will spend more time playing and less time fighting amongst themselves. 8. to find a group that will actually do the right thing because it's right and not for the reward. 9. to find a group that doesn't go straight to the tavern/Inn as soon as they get to town. 10. to find a group that is happy using the basic/core races and doesn't try to munchkin up their PC's by using half-(insert incredibly powerful creature here) so that they can be the most powerful in the group. 11. to find a group where others don't mind being the DM for a while *raises hand* Hello, that is basically me. I'm only guilty of not doing the last two sometimes (i'm 50/50 on using templates and I do DM occasionally). Oh, and I also like to play NE characters, but they fit in with the group, mostly out of fear of imminent death if they leave me.
green_yawgmoth 12-05-06, 11:49 AM	Does it count as "always playing evil" if I really like playing LE characters who can play well with others and participate in a group? Because I find that most people who hate evil PCs are the ones that have only seen people play stupid evil. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
SolemnDusk 12-05-06, 11:59 AM	Rule #1: No one is allowed to play unless they have their own PHB, dice, paper, pencil, and **********ing ERASER!!!!!!! That might help. I agree with all of the above (ESPECIALLY #1) except #10... I can understand wanting to keep the game balanced, but a Human Fighter 5 compared to a Fighter 1/Half-fiend... 10 HP at 5th level? Whack that guy w/magic missle, and teach him a lesson...
Frugal 12-05-06, 12:36 PM	A lot of your list sounds like either a combination of lack of maturity and/or disruptive play styles or lack of familiarity with the rules. Let's tackle the rules first, try teaching them the rules, make an effort here and explain that if they learn them then it will help things go more smoothly. For the munchkin side of things, explain that you want to keep things simple until people learn the rules. For the books, explain that you want people to read the books at home (those who have gotten them as gifts) and bring them to the game table because it makes things smoother. Now the disruptive play style can be a lot of different problems. It could be the personalities of the players but it could also be a sign that they're bored. I know if I'm not engaged in the game I get distracted and just start joking around with the other players. When I'm focused and interested in the game that goes away.
TroubleWolf 12-05-06, 01:11 PM	I really just wish my group would stay sober while playing. So many good games are ruined because the players get drunk and act stupid instead of roleplaying their character. And how does a DM not get offended if a player stumbles away from the table and passes out on the couch? Choose: Either we play D&D or we get drunk. But we're not getting drunk and playing D&D.
SevSaint 12-05-06, 01:44 PM	#5 Thats an easy fix. You can set up a situation in which the person they kill (band of monsters or NPC) was actually coming to the party to aid them with (special magic item, or life saving information) Since you are the dm it is up to you to lead the party. They can't do anything unless you lay the ground under their feet.
pres_man 12-05-06, 02:01 PM	#5 Thats an easy fix. You can set up a situation in which the person they kill (band of monsters or NPC) was actually coming to the party to aid them with (special magic item, or life saving information) It is even easier to get the magic item if they are dead. "Here is the, gaaaa" "Hey look at this cool magic item this guy had, I bet it will be useful. Sucker!"
High Octane 12-05-06, 02:40 PM	Well if you have been a good little boy this Christmas, maybe Santa will bring you a group of players for Christmas. And by "Santa" I mean "Vinny my bag man." And by "bring you" I mean "leave tied up and gagged in your basement" And by "have been a good little boy" I mean "leave the correct payment at the usual spot"
Aricandor 12-05-06, 02:51 PM	Well if you have been a good little boy this Christmas, maybe Santa will bring you a group of players for Christmas. And by "Santa" I mean "Vinny my bag man." And by "bring you" I mean "leave tied up and gagged in your basement" And by "have been a good little boy" I mean "leave the correct payment at the usual spot" :clap:
ShubNiggurath 12-05-06, 02:56 PM	I wish I knew how to sig...
GoriceXII 12-05-06, 03:23 PM	I find it hard to believe that the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young doesn't know how to sig...check your profile? You might need to advertise for players who want a game focused very much on roleplaying. Do it the way you'd ad for a study group or a band or something--mention that influences are important, mention how fun you expect the game to be, that kind of thing. A good indication is what kind of fantasy people read. In a way there's nothing wrong with hack & slash, in fact the game in a way lends itself to that if taken in that direction, but obviously no fun for you at all in that. If you like meeting new people and don't mind asking to put a notice up in the local game store or on a forum for your area then go for that. Discuss first what they are like, find out if you'd actually enjoy playing with them and them with you.
Elessara 12-05-06, 03:26 PM	Responding as to how these statements would apply to me: 1. I almost never play evil. I have a hard time doing it and I'm pretty well bad at it. I'd like to try again but mostly I much prefer playing good. I LIKE helping people and saving the world. 2. Whilst I may not write down my character's backstory, I do have it in my head. I may eventually get it written down. 3. I like prestige classes. I like them a lot. I like gestalt too but that's a whole 'nother story. 4. I have more (WotC only) books than my entire group put together, which includes the DM (which I am not) and usually about 3 other players. 5. Most games I've played, I don't usually attack something unless I've been sent to. Or it attacks me first. 6. The rest of the group usually asks me about creating a character. Including the DM. 7. Meh, the only time we're fighting (out of character) is when we're arguing about the rules, but I've really tried hard to cut back on that. It gets in the way. 8. This is one of the reasons I have a problem playing evil characters. 9. Ok, probably guilty of this one, but then half the time we get to a town, we're beat all to heck and just want to rest. Or we go to a temple or even a shop (if its a big town/city) first. Sometimes we go to the inn, formulate a plan on what information we need and how/where to get it and then go forth to get it. Ok that doesn't usually happen, but sometimes! 10. I like being half-whatevers. I like templates. Its something different. My current character is a chaos gnome bard. But then, the chaos gnome (LA +1) just complements this char's personality. Well, so do the stats, but the race itself was just perfect for her. However, my favorite character that I've ever played is a human fighter. 11. I've never DM'd. I've thought about it, but never done it. Maybe someday I will. Ele~
Pallin Rahl 12-05-06, 03:34 PM	Stop playing so many MMOs/recruiting from MMO base players. Yes, because as we all know... All MMO players don't care about roleplaying in tabletop games. ...and violent videogames and "angry" music make kids kill people. ...and everyone who plays D&D worships the devil. Right? :rolleyes:
High Octane 12-05-06, 03:44 PM	Yes, because as we all know... All MMO players don't care about roleplaying in tabletop games. ...and violent videogames and "angry" music make kids kill people. ...and everyone who plays D&D worships the devil. Right? :rolleyes: You seem to indicate these arent correct statements....
Pallin Rahl 12-05-06, 03:54 PM	You seem to indicate these arent correct statements.... How perceptive of you... ;)
fatal error 12-05-06, 04:10 PM	12. A group of players that show up, consistently and on time.
mdock2003 12-06-06, 09:36 AM	While I did not intend for my whining & complaining to get analyzed quite so thoroughly, initially I had intended this to just be a place to compare complaints, but it evolved into a little more interesting thread.There are some very valid comments which have made me consider a few things I had not really thought of before. 1. I would definitely say there are maturity issues with in the groups I have played with. Not because the players are young, most are 25+, and I guess they figure the game is childish so they can act childish when playing. Believe me some of them continue to act this way no matter who is DMing the session. Though rare I have been able to bring in guest DM's or get some of the better players to sit in and they have all said most of the group is a pain to deal with. Which brings me back to the initial problem that most of the players are long time friends/family and booting them from the group is hard to do, plus with the very limited player pool to draw from in this area, I think I would rather try harder to improve the few I have.(although at the moment there is no group, life has kind of put the group on hiatus, so I may be forced to search out other players.) But like I said before I have encountered this as a player in other groups over the years, often times with players/DM's that are even more experience than I am 2. While I feel I have done everything I know to encourage more well rounded play, I now see a few more tactics I can use. Getting the feedback helps. 3. I don't actually have anything against using half-whatever characters, mulit-classing, or prestige classes. I just want to see players use these to develop their character and bring something to the game, instead of just using it to try and one up the other players. Plus if they are continually wanting to play things that are not in the core rules, they should buy the books instead of rummaging through mine for ideas to give them an advantage. 4. I don't care if they actually write the back story down, just so long as they are interested enough in their character to come up with something even if it is just in there head. 5. As for knowing the rules, I know that ours is not the only group to deal with this... it has been an issue in nearly every group I have ever seen. Usually groups that I have seen have at least 1/2 the players that suffer from this. Regardless it is aggravating.
mdock2003 12-06-06, 09:44 AM	I have to say that showing up on time is not a problem that I have had to deal with often. Thankfully if a time is set everyone usually shows up an hour or two early. They don't usually bring snacks, but that doesn't bother me because my wife likes a reason to try new recipes. I do think that a lot of the problems in most gaming groups, including mine, could be solved if the players tried their hand at DMing more often. I am going to try to implement a rotating DM policy. Everyone has to DM at least 1 session, even if it's just a side adventure to the ongoing campaign, every few months. I know that seeing the game from the other side of the screen helped me become a better player and appreciate the hard work that goes into each session.
Roivas 12-06-06, 09:49 AM	Man I'd be happy with just #12 happening. I've GM'd plenty in my day I've found that the fastest way to reel in players to your style of play is to ensure they understand that my tolerence level for jack***ery is around the same as a commoner deathblowing the tarrasque. When the players first sit down I show off my GM screen which has a slash mark in it for every PC I've killed while running game, this tends to ge the message across quickly. That aside I'd recommend finding another game, if you are that irritated with your current group branch out and find another. Unless you live in Climax North Dakota you should be able to find at least 4 D&D players you have never met.
pres_man 12-06-06, 09:51 AM	My suggestion. Look at your players, and try to determine if any are "serious" gamers, that could play a mature game. If you have at least two (you could do it with one, but that gets a bit boring for some folk), then alternate between weeks. One week play with the whole group and make a dungeon crawl adventure, core rules only. If a player does not have the PHB they can download the SRD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 To be able to play they must have one or the other, that is a requirement to sit at the table (note they don't have to print off the whole SRD, just the parts that pertain to their character, and things like the combat section.) On the other weeks, play with only the serious gamers. If you know a few other DMs or such, see if they might play as well. This way you don't dump the others, for whatever reason you don't want to, but you also aren't stuck playing with a bunch of boneheads all of the time. As time goes on, one of the non-serious gamers might want to play in the other game. After explaining how this will be a different style and goofing off will not work, then allow them (one at a time), don't allow any more until this one has adapt to the style or been asked not to continue coming. Repeat as necessary. The problem is, it is easy to deal with a goofball when you have a group that is serious. Most people will fall in line due to social pressure and actually see that another way of gaming can be fun. But if you have several goofballs, you don't have the social pressure to cause change, and thus the situation never gets better.
Catra 12-07-06, 12:19 AM	There was a "Make me hate you/Make me care" thread somewhere; try using some of these methods to motivate (read: manipulate) them into following the story. If you know them well enough, it should be easy to incite them into unintentionally following the story. Make things really hard on them in-game when they just go killing people. Have every other group they come across have some guys that are more powerful than them, and if they blatantly kill whatever in their path they get beat up and left for dead. If they are causing trouble with cleric and paladin orders, have an avatar of a diety confront them all "you shalt pay for thine sinnings" or whatever, then send them to hell to get gnawed by demons and devils. Party killed a prominant member of the thieves guild? They wake up bound, naked, and hanging over a pool of alligators while the leader of the thieves guild and his gang laugh at them while lounging on a pile of the party's stuff. Make things happen in the story that affect the players' pride/dignity directly, so that they're spurred into action. Don't have the whole story hinge on what the characters do next; the players can affect the environment that you put them in, but the destiny of the world doesn't rest in their incompetant hands.
Lord Karsus 12-07-06, 12:39 AM	-Amen to all that.
TheWerg 12-07-06, 01:36 AM	12. To find a group who aren't teenagers at heart. It's funny, but I play with teenagers and I have pretty much none of this going on. Although we do an evil campaign, it's a calculated evil and it's the first we've tried. However, with that being said, this sounds like typical teenage behavior. Tell your group to grow up.
green_yawgmoth 12-07-06, 03:20 AM	12. A group of players that show up, consistently and on time.You have no idea how much I would like this. Every time I run a game, everyone shows up the first 3-4 sessions, and past that there's always at least one person who doesn't show up. And it's never the same person, so it's not like I can just kick someone out for not showing. Eventually it's 2 not showing, and then I just can the whole campaign after that. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
kelvinaw273 12-07-06, 11:13 AM	You have no idea how much I would like this. Every time I run a game, everyone shows up the first 3-4 sessions, and past that there's always at least one person who doesn't show up. And it's never the same person, so it's not like I can just kick someone out for not showing. Eventually it's 2 not showing, and then I just can the whole campaign after that. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif I so feel for you.