Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yourgm66 02-27-08, 12:49 AM	When our current campaign ends in about two months, my players all want to play characters with the Vow of Poverty feat and be the Ultimate Goodie Two-Shoes. The players have seen our monk perform his level up paperwork in about two minutes, give his share of the loot to a church, family, etc. and be done. I was initally excited that everyone would be playing a good character for a change. Having seen how our current monk has performed I know I'm going to have to use more lower CR challenges. This will be a good thing for us because it will really slow down the pace of our game and lead to more social encounters. We will probably end up with the following characters: A monk A wizard or sorcerer A cleric (maybe a druid) A barbarian I was thinking about having some rewards that give bonuses to things like natural armor, damage reduction, caster level of specific magic schools, etc. But that just seems to be "gear" in an alternate form. It seems technically within the rules, but seems to break the spirit of the feat. I'm most concerned about things like effects that turn PCs to stone. I know that I could always forgo throwing a cockatrice or a medusa into the game and not have to worry about the lack of back up scrolls and the like, but I have a couple of really smart players who will see right through such a ruse. "Why don't we ever have any bad guys trying to turn us to stone?" comes to mind. Has anyone else run a campaign like this? What are some of the issues that you've encountered and how did you/your group deal with them? Please be as verbose as you wish. ;)
JaronK 02-27-08, 12:55 AM	Well, for one, a Wizard can't have a spellbook with VoP, so that option is out. Also, Clerics can't have a Divine Focus (holy symbol) by RAW, but you could change that. But VoP is quite strong at very low levels, and then gets quite weak at higher level ones, with some encounters being extreamly difficult due to limited flexibility. So be aware of that. Unless, of course, the party all takes Vow of Peace and take the Diplomancer route, in which case they're invincible. JaronK
Iktomi 02-27-08, 01:32 AM	My advice would be to give them an ally or benifactor, some good alligned character who supports the PCs quest to do good. This character wouldn't be a DMPC (not traveling with the party except in special circumstances), but he could come allong after the fight with the medusa with a couple of scrolls of stone to flesh to make up for the things the party can't do on their own. Of course, in exchange for this character's help, the party would have to do a few jobs for him, when it's plot appropriate. Nothing comes for free, even in the world of goodie two-shoes.
lifeblender 02-27-08, 01:41 AM	If one of them gets turned to stone, just count the statue as treasure and the survivors will donate it to a church. Problem solved. Okay, not exactly solved, but that may be the path required, i.e. carrying the statue home to get restored by a Cleric of the church. If someone takes Leadership (if allowed) or if there's simply a guide with a horse, or rescued prisoners, or carrying a statue back would not be impossible. It's also not unreasonable that some sort of guide or watcher is sent along with the PCs in case of TPK, to report back to the church and possibly get them rescued/raised/restored. Normally I would say that doing that was a really big crutch, but it sounds appropriately in character if the entire party is filled with Exalted feats. Heck, maybe the Fey friend of someone with Nymph's Kiss is stalking them in the shadows, and rescues them after they all take a Medusa to the face. Or a literal Angel does them the favor of retrieving their corpses and transporting them back to a friendly church. I'm surprised Psionicist isn't in the player list. VoP goes great with a class that requires nothing physical, and fits well RP-wise. That would be my suggestion for any player dealing with the "no VoP Wizard" issue: become a Psion instead. They are about as flexible, especially if you use Expanded Knowledge to grab a keynote power from another discipline. I would suggest Shifter as a race, especially for the Barbarian, since they can get a natural weapon that way. A Barbarian without a nice weapon is kind of screwed. [Why is it that stuff from Eberron, land of the Artificer, is well suited to VoPoverty? Weird.]
Etarnon 02-27-08, 03:07 AM	I say just run the game, and don't worry about it. They come in with what they come in with. They adapt to your NPCs, your NPCs adapt to them. Game on.
Magrus 02-27-08, 03:33 AM	Frankly, if my players start wondering why they don't have whatever it is they expect in the form of challenging opponents, I don't care. Do you know why? If they can predict what I am throwing at them, the game ceases to be challenging. You shouldn't have to throw a standard array of baddies and challenges every campaign. I have never involved any encounter involving a gorgon or medusa and you know what? My players have never complained. I can present challenging encounters without relying on a saving throw meaning the difference between winning, or ending a characters career. Relying on that kind of situation in order to create drama leads to a very delicate balance issue between BBEG and PC. I don't need that kind of stress. As far as limitations based on class, the wizard can be a tattooed wizard, who instead of having a spellbook, is limited to the number of spells he has by the tattoo rules in Complete Arcane I believe? He would have to work to get a spell book from some good benefactor, in which he would use that to pursue good deeds. A cleric, the same thing. He would need to perform deeds that fit his deities needs regularly (IE, whenever you present him with one), or he doesn't get to renew and cast his spells.
CrimsonDeath 02-27-08, 03:58 AM	I'm not sure why you're worried about petrification. Casters are allowed a spell component pouch, and the material components for Stone to Flesh (a pinch of earth and a drop of blood) are readily available on most battlefields. If you're worried about making a Sorcerer "waste" a spell known on Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment is on both the Cleric and Sor/Wiz lists (and the Bard and Paladin lists if it matters). It has no material components and can reverse "enchantments, transmutations, and curses". There's also the fact that, as much treasure as they'll be donating to their respective churches, NPC clerics will be falling all over themselves to get cursed, petrified, and dead party members back on their feet. Especially if anybody in the party has the presence of mind to drop a few ranks into Diplomacy. Well, for one, a Wizard can't have a spellbook with VoP, so that option is out. There's a variant Wizard (I think in Complete Mage) that doesn't get a spellbook but essentially gains Spell Mastery in every spell he knows. Of course, with VoP he can't learn new spells from scrolls, so he'll be stuck with the ones he gets at level-up. Unless he's an Elven Generalist (Races of the Wild), a Sorcerer (or Psion) would probably be better off. Also, Clerics can't have a Divine Focus (holy symbol) by RAW, but you could change that. One pretty flavorful alternative would be to allow a Cleric to have his holy symbol tattooed or branded onto him somewhere-- his upper arm, his forehead, the palm of his hand... Wherever's appropriate. The Druid's Divine Focus is more problematic. I would suggest Shifter as a race, especially for the Barbarian, since they can get a natural weapon that way. A Barbarian without a nice weapon is kind of screwed. A nice weapon is really only necessary at low levels (when it's hardest to afford one). At high levels, an optimized Barbarian is doing most of his damage off Power Attack; anything he can wield two-handed will suffice. He'll be fine with a quarterstaff or (long)spear. Also, unless he invests heavily in Shifter feats, he'll only have those natural weapons in one encounter per day. He might actually be better off with Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike (and maybe grab Touch of Golden Ice with one of his Exalted bonus feats).
Some Like It Hot 02-27-08, 04:51 AM	I've found Collegiate Wizard to be a good feat for VoP wizards. Just remember, the rules are what you make them. Perhaps the wizard was trained in an ascetic school of arcane thought. He was taught to write his spells with only normal pen and ink, minimizing the material cost. However, the notation used is much more complex, requiring twice as much time and space to copy a spell into the book. The notation also makes it impossible for anyone not specially trained to read the spellbook, even with read magic. This is a style that has also worked in past campaigns.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 02:28 PM	Diplomancer? The default divine focus for a druid is an oak leaf, not hard to find.
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-27-08, 02:34 PM	If it's the idea of PCs without massive amounts of magic loot that you like, rather than the goody-two-shoes idea, Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL) is wonderful. However, it's fairly combat oriented, and might not give you what you want if you are relishing a more RP based campaign.
Lincoln Hills 02-27-08, 03:14 PM	First of all, congratulate your players on being willing to try the VoP path. So many adventuring parties are full of gold-hogging, bowb-your-buddy CNs these days. Or so I am led to believe by the boards. ;) Second, I think those of you who are suggesting 'petrification solutions' should review the post one more time... YG66 is basically just worried about any situation that is easily solved with magical gear, and difficult to solve without it - he's just using petrification as an example (what do you do when the only guy in the party with stone to flesh is petrified?) Honestly, YG66 - I don't think you need to worry that much about it. Yes, it's rough on a group to be unable to carry around potions, salves, scrolls and all the other paraphenalia... but the benefits of the VoP are meant to reduce (though not eliminate) the likelihood of such events occuring. One solution is to ask the players if one of them is willing to create a single non-VoP character simply to ensure the group isn't totally cut off from item-related aid. I know it kind of ruins the image they're going for, but maybe one of them - especially somebody with a strongly gear-related class, such as a wizard - will be willing to make the sacrifice, especially if you suggest one of the other Vows as a more suitable option. (A wizard is poorly suited to a Vow of Poverty, but well-suited to a Vow of Non-Violence. Well, better-suited than most D&D classes, at least.)
Krusk 02-27-08, 03:16 PM	google diplomancer, first thing that comes up is http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425 Essentially someone with a high enough diplomancy check that they can in one round turn any enemy from hostile to fanatical without fail. AKA taking advantage of the broken diplomacy rules. Let them play as normal. Honestly, how often do your parties get turned to stone? in the event it does happen, hopefully the entire party is stone. Im serious. Then simply say they are awoken moments later. Before them stands the monster that had turned them to stone, laying dead on the floor. A man steps back from you, he appears to have un-stoned you. It then turns out that the PC's have been stone for X years, until some random adventurer happened to find them while slaying monsters. He un-stoned them in the hopes of a reward/he is a nice guy and continue the campaign from there. Could make for some cool changes in a setting. Act as an excuse to do any of the following -create a new city -get rid of arcane magic, and include psionics (huge cataclysm, weave broke, and now people use this. Your characters are ok, but there are no more arcane npcs) -BBEG won, now go set things back how they were. -destroy a city -Look at the changes for the forgotten realms fluff from 3.5 to 4. now imagine your pc was played during 3.5, petrafied and woken up during 4. could be cool.
CrimsonDeath 02-27-08, 04:46 PM	The default divine focus for a druid is an oak leaf, not hard to find. Holly and mistletoe, actually. And while it's still not that hard to find, it's also not technically legal to carry. Second, I think those of you who are suggesting 'petrification solutions' should review the post one more time... YG66 is basically just worried about any situation that is easily solved with magical gear, and difficult to solve without it - he's just using petrification as an example (what do you do when the only guy in the party with stone to flesh is petrified?) And at least one of the solutions I proposed (friendly churches) works about as well for any such problem, although it might slow down the game a bit more than carrying the appropriate scrolls or potions would.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 04:59 PM	One option is to allow items that have no cost, I imagine if you picked your holly/mistletoe yourself, it's free. The costs in PHB are mainly for having one treated and to preserve it. Under this rule, may have to replace it every month or so, unless you keep it in water for 2 hours every night.
Ecalsneerg 02-27-08, 06:31 PM	One option is to allow items that have no cost, I imagine if you picked your holly/mistletoe yourself, it's free. The costs in PHB are mainly for having one treated and to preserve it. Under this rule, may have to replace it every month or so, unless you keep it in water for 2 hours every night. It's free in the PHB too.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 06:47 PM	What about for other holy symbols? What if they carve them themselves?
yourgm66 02-27-08, 07:35 PM	Thanks for the input, guys! Good ideas all around. Krusk was right. The flesh to stone example was just an example of the type of situation that might be a bit problematic without the necessary scrolls/prepared spells that a VoP group could encounter. The church connection was so obvious I must have ducked for it to have missed me.:banghead: The church would very much have an interest in keeping such a group of PCs alive and well. They were going to be using just the Core books for the campaign, but I'm definintly going to gently encourage the wizard to try a psion instead. Having them remain as statues for a number of years is a wonderful idea and one that I've already decided to implement. I'll have them get "rescued" by an NPC who is currently a street orphan when they start out. Let them become unofficial guardians while he's a kid, then when they get turned to stone, he can come back to find them and ask why they weren't around during said cataclysm. He might even evolve into a BBEG that they might be reluctant to destory outright. The PCs had already decided to have a holy symbol of Pelor tattooed on them somewhere, so holy symbols won't be a problem.
yourgm66 02-27-08, 07:43 PM	First of all, congratulate your players on being willing to try the VoP path. So many adventuring parties are full of gold-hogging, bowb-your-buddy CNs these days. Or so I am led to believe by the boards. ;) Don't get me wrong, the guys are totally into loot. ;) I think they just really want a change of pace so that they aren't stuck with a pile of gold and magical weapons that end up being useless while they save for their +4 ability enhancers. :)
Eldritch_Id 02-28-08, 01:38 AM	Well, for one, a Wizard can't have a spellbook with VoP, so that option is out. Also, Clerics can't have a Divine Focus (holy symbol) by RAW, but you could change that.The RAW for VoP could've done with a 'PEACH thread' under the Skills & Feats forum during the compilation of BoED (wow, never figured I was capable of using more than one acronym in one sentence - I'm kinda proud of myself :) ). The way I see it, there are two ways to handle an all-VoP party: 1.With viabiliy and flexibility: I recommend house-ruled exceptions cases such as a wizard or cleric with a VoP. Besides, how the heck did the disciple of peace illustrated in the BoED get the gold armor, flute-staff, and important-looking parchment, huh? Cheater...:P 2.Etch the RAW in stone and declare them as perfect scripture gifted by the divine: The PC's spells are worth something (check the DMG for spell costs for an NPC casting spells). The PC's should not be allowed to cast those expensive spells. You should also begin counting the PC's bodies and thoughts as a violation of the VoP. Don't agree? Visit your local blackmarket or patent office. Great way to have a burglar re-coop the money for broken windows and crowbarred locks, by the way. *Pfft!! Shoot to kill my butt! Lists of organ donor recipients with lengths measured in miles + the largest prisoner population in the world = just another sign that the US government is inefficient (yeah, I can't decide whether I'm NG, N, or LE - someone with an opinion let me know). Joking side-note, you could hand boxes crackers out as treasure until the PC's get the ability to survive without food! "Mmm...that's good treasure"
Sunic_Flames 02-28-08, 09:29 AM	Did you (the DM) by any chance do anything nasty with loot you shouldn't have? Like sunder, stole, etc? Because those are literally fates worse than death for equipment dependent parties, and would certainly explain why they would like to circumvent that.
Legdiwena 02-28-08, 10:27 AM	I'm debating if I'm NE or CE as far how I would administer a criminal justice system.
Loren Pechtel 02-28-08, 01:42 PM	Well, for one, a Wizard can't have a spellbook with VoP, so that option is out. One of the books (I can't remember which one, it's a WotC one, though) has a wizard variant: No spell books needed, you give up familiars and the free scribe scroll feat. A VoP can't scribe scrolls anyway and summon familiar has expensive components.
CrimsonDeath 02-28-08, 04:22 PM	Did you (the DM) by any chance do anything nasty with loot you shouldn't have? Like sunder, stole, etc? Because those are literally fates worse than death for equipment dependent parties, and would certainly explain why they would like to circumvent that. I had a DM who not only liked to occasionally sunder or disjoin equipment, but also forced us (for story reasons) to sell all of our loot rather than using any of it and made magic items difficult to get (and psionic items nearly impossible). When I say "difficult to get", I mean that when you go shopping he would roll to see if it was in stock. You could commission custom items, but the events in the game were frequently fast-paced; it was entirely possible to gain several levels without any chance to upgrade one's equipment (or even while one was waiting for a piece of equipment to be upgraded).
Krusk 02-28-08, 04:27 PM	One of the books (I can't remember which one, it's a WotC one, though) has a wizard variant: No spell books needed, you give up familiars and the free scribe scroll feat. Yeah, but im pretty sure it still costs money to scribe new spells into your spell"notbook". So you could have your standard spells from leveling, but never learn new ones through scrolls or similar.
Sunic_Flames 02-28-08, 05:58 PM	I had a DM who not only liked to occasionally sunder or disjoin equipment, but also forced us (for story reasons) to sell all of our loot rather than using any of it and made magic items difficult to get (and psionic items nearly impossible). When I say "difficult to get", I mean that when you go shopping he would roll to see if it was in stock. You could commission custom items, but the events in the game were frequently fast-paced; it was entirely possible to gain several levels without any chance to upgrade one's equipment (or even while one was waiting for a piece of equipment to be upgraded). Well that would do it too. Because with normal loot, VoP falls short by a fairly large margin and isn't even usable by a lot of classes. But with a powerfreak DM, it's about the only real option, as distasteful as exalted is. :P
yourgm66 02-29-08, 12:30 AM	Did you (the DM) by any chance do anything nasty with loot you shouldn't have? Like sunder, stole, etc? Because those are literally fates worse than death for equipment dependent parties, and would certainly explain why they would like to circumvent that. In seven years of gaming with my group, I've sundered exactly one spiked chain. :ahem: A nightwalker got it because the player did something really stupid; he charged a pair of them knowing exactly what they were and what they could do. I don't think things like that are very fun for players. That's another thread though. They want to play DnD with a twist for the next campaign and everyone with VoP is definitely a twist. I'm going to steal Oakspar77777's zombie adventure from his Lessons from DMing with my GF (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=471897) thread as their first official good guys quest. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. (It's up to 39 pages now, wow!) If the wizard doesn't want to be a psion instead, I'm going to let him do something like sew his spells into his robe or use a ball of string with knots in it to represent his spellbook, though I can't remember where I saw the reference to knots in string as spells. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'll give you a cookie.
chava 02-29-08, 12:32 AM	Complete Arcane - variant spellbooks
yourgm66 02-29-08, 12:40 AM	Complete Arcane - variant spellbooks Awesome! There it is. :cookie: for chava!
CrimsonDeath 02-29-08, 04:12 AM	One thing to keep in mind: If everyone has VoP, you may consider allowing them to carry loot from the place they acquire it to whatever charitable organization they intend to donate it to, on the condition that they don't actually use any of it. (And if you drop any slotless items, assume they can choose not to use it, even if it functions simply by being carried.)
Legdiwena 02-29-08, 01:22 PM	One thing to keep in mind: If everyone has VoP, you may consider allowing them to carry loot from the place they acquire it to whatever charitable organization they intend to donate it to, on the condition that they don't actually use any of it. (And if you drop any slotless items, assume they can choose not to use it, even if it functions simply by being carried.) That's part of VoP anyway isn't it (well, except for that last part)? They just don't have bags of holding to put it in.
CrimsonDeath 02-29-08, 02:06 PM	That's part of VoP anyway isn't it (well, except for that last part)? They just don't have bags of holding to put it in. It's actually ambiguous. The feat explicitly spells out what you can wear, what you can carry and use, and what you cannot use. There is no mention of what you may carry but not use.
Legdiwena 02-29-08, 02:38 PM	I thought it was implied due to wording of need for donating things. How can you donate what you can't present to the recipient?
Krusk 02-29-08, 02:43 PM	It is implied, but some DM's are jerks. The solution is to not play under them/be a jerk. "OP! you picked up that magic sword and handed it to a priest! lolzwas" "yeah so?" "well now you losoe all your monk powerz and your vopness" "why?" "because you carried a valuable item, lolz noo12bs" "i am leaving" Best solution is to avoid them.
Loren Pechtel 02-29-08, 03:18 PM	Yeah, but im pretty sure it still costs money to scribe new spells into your spell"notbook". So you could have your standard spells from leveling, but never learn new ones through scrolls or similar. No, you don't scribe them at all. You have no equivalent of a spellbook. It's all in your mind. You need the scribe scroll feat to even be able to write them down.
Krusk 02-29-08, 06:31 PM	No, you don't scribe them at all. You have no equivalent of a spellbook. It's all in your mind. You need the scribe scroll feat to even be able to write them down. Then how exactly is that balanced against the core wizard who needs a book, and has to pay to learn additional spells aside from his 2 per level? This wizard gives up a small liability and in exchange gets nothing but benefits?
Drackthor 03-01-08, 01:35 AM	Then how exactly is that balanced against the core wizard who needs a book, and has to pay to learn additional spells aside from his 2 per level? This wizard gives up a small liability and in exchange gets nothing but benefits? Krusk, you've been here since '05, how are you not getting this? WoTC is entirely off it's rocker.
yourgm66 03-01-08, 01:45 AM	I think I've come up with a way to help the wizard. . . Because he's pretty much chosen by the gods, he can keep his spellbook in his head. He can still have one normal spellbook, but the rest of his spells are locked up in his brain. He is limited to knowing only 4+Int modifier spells in this manner though.
CrimsonDeath 03-01-08, 01:48 AM	Complete Arcane - variant spellbooks I see Arcane Geometry, Structures, Tattoos, and Tokens. I don't see anything for a Wizard without a spellbook, so that must be in another book. I've forgotten which one, unfortunately. (I also can't find it in PHB2, DMG2, or any of the Completes.) No, you don't scribe them at all. You have no equivalent of a spellbook. It's all in your mind. You need the scribe scroll feat to even be able to write them down. Regardless, I'm fairly certain there's a GP cost associated with learning a new spell. And even if there weren't, I'm pretty sure if you learn the spell from a scroll, it purges the scroll exactly as though you'd cast the spell (or scribed it into a spellbook). And Scribe Scroll isn't necessary to write a spell down in a spellbook. Wu Jen use spellbooks just fine without the Scribe Scroll feat, and in the section of the PHB on spell research even describes a Cleric recording a spell he'd researched in a format specifically designed to teach it to other members of his church, without any reference to the Scribe Scroll feat or even to scrolls in general. From that, we may conclude that a scroll is a specific type of magical writing which is empowered to create a magical effect directly, but other forms of magical writing exist which merely describe what a spell does and how to prepare and cast it.
Eldritch_Id 03-01-08, 02:50 AM	Because he's pretty much chosen by the gods, he can keep his spellbook in his head. He can still have one normal spellbook, but the rest of his spells are locked up in his brain. He is limited to knowing only 4+Int modifier spells in this manner though.Something to consider is the "fluff" reasoning behind a VoP: the sacrifice of not owning stuff is the point. Not to the point of non-functionality, though. Your solution seems very fair and balanced. I like the 4+Int element, especially. I'm debating if I'm NE or CE as far how I would administer a criminal justice system.Welcom to the Brotherhood! Demonstrations for proper flogging begin at noon, thumbscrews at 2:00, waterboarding at 4:00, and, if you're game, there's an open forum on skull boiling methodology in the amphitheatre at 6:00. Clean towels are on the 1st floor in the pantry next to the door marked "no liquids beyond this point". Open enrollment is on until next Tuesday, if you have interested friends.
someonelse812 03-01-08, 11:29 AM	anything he can wield two-handed will suffice. He'll be fine with a quarterstaff or (long)spear. I think great club would be best, he can just find a big stick in the forest. I second the idea of playing a sorcerer, and I suggest taking Eschew Materials along with the XP variant for gold piece costs. When I play VoP PCs I always carry around a sack full of rocks as well as a stick, nothing else. the rocks are thrown as a simple ranged weapon, 10ft, 1d3+Str, 20x2 just my 2cp
Legdiwena 03-01-08, 12:17 PM	Welcom to the Brotherhood! Demonstrations for proper flogging begin at noon, thumbscrews at 2:00, waterboarding at 4:00, and, if you're game, there's an open forum on skull boiling methodology in the amphitheatre at 6:00. Clean towels are on the 1st floor in the pantry next to the door marked "no liquids beyond this point". Open enrollment is on until next Tuesday, if you have interested friends. Cage in an area 5 miles on a side, have perimeter around it cleared for a mile. Put convicts inside with essentials to start a small farm. Guard posts are outside and anyone more than 50 yards outside the fence is shot on sight. Bring back 3 strike rule for theft. 1st time is a hand, 2nd time other hand, 3rd time your head.
Krusk 03-01-08, 12:50 PM	Krusk, you've been here since '05, how are you not getting this? WoTC is entirely off it's rocker. Yes, but usually something ridicilusly broken not as simple as that. It usually involves two or three steps minimum. And you would think it would be mentioned everytime someone arrives saying "i want to play a wizard any advice?" Im also fairly certain it had a requirement, ill look it up soon. *looked it up Arcane Geomerty- must take levels in geometer prestige class, spells only take up one page. Structures- Any number of spellcasters may prepare from a structure. Requires area instead of a spellbook. Tattoos- list of body parts and how many pages they are. 200gp per page equivilent for any and all spells scribed to the book. (I would think this includes the ones gained from leveling. Tokens- Can be read by touch alone. requires same costs as standard book to scribe..
Loren Pechtel 03-01-08, 01:42 PM	Then how exactly is that balanced against the core wizard who needs a book, and has to pay to learn additional spells aside from his 2 per level? This wizard gives up a small liability and in exchange gets nothing but benefits? He gives up the familiar and the feat. I do agree it seems like a good deal to me.
Loren Pechtel 03-01-08, 01:43 PM	Regardless, I'm fairly certain there's a GP cost associated with learning a new spell. And even if there weren't, I'm pretty sure if you learn the spell from a scroll, it purges the scroll exactly as though you'd cast the spell (or scribed it into a spellbook). Yeah, a VoP wizard can't learn from scrolls, period. That doesn't mean it can't learn from captured spellbooks, though.
Krusk 03-01-08, 04:43 PM	Yeah, a VoP wizard can't learn from scrolls, period. That doesn't mean it can't learn from captured spellbooks, though. Yes it does, because a captured spellbook is worth money. Unless he scribes from one book to his own, which also costs money, and donates the captured spell book.
CrimsonDeath 03-01-08, 11:52 PM	I think great club would be best, he can just find a big stick in the forest. A greatclub, however, is a martial weapon, so he can't have one.
pmurray@bigpond.com 03-02-08, 07:34 AM	Well, for one, a Wizard can't have a spellbook with VoP, so that option is out. What? I doubt that quite a bit. Expensive spell components might be an issue, though. Also, Clerics can't have a Divine Focus (holy symbol) by RAW, but you could change that. Definitely talking thought your hat now. Of course you can have a divine focus - just not a jewel-encrusted gold one. Unless, of course, the party all takes Vow of Peace and take the Diplomancer route, in which case they're invincible. True, but you are not playing D&D anymore. Kind of like players that want for their characters to open a shop.
Krusk 03-02-08, 03:56 PM	From the hyperlink SRD- http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm Spellbook, Wizard’s (Blank) A spellbook has 100 pages of parchment, and each spell takes up one page per spell level (one page each for 0-level spells). Spellbook, wizard’s (blank) 15 gp 3 lb. Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead. Each religion has its own holy symbol. Unholy Symbols An unholy symbol is like a holy symbol except that it focuses negative energy and is used by evil clerics (or by neutral clerics who want to cast evil spells or command undead). Holy symbol, wooden 1 gp — Holy symbol, silver 25 gp 1 lb. By RAW a wizard cannot have a 15gp spell book, and a cleric cannot have even a 1gp holy symbol.
Loren Pechtel 03-02-08, 04:31 PM	Yes it does, because a captured spellbook is worth money. Unless he scribes from one book to his own, which also costs money, and donates the captured spell book. Remember that I'm discussing the variant that doesn't need to scribe it into a spellbook to have it. You capture a spellbook, learn anything in it that you didn't already know and then donate the book. Your reading it did not detract from it's value and it's not a magic item you are using. No violation of the VoP so long as you didn't delay donating it in order to learn something out of it.
VulcanStormwrath 03-02-08, 04:40 PM	In seven years of gaming with my group, I've sundered exactly one spiked chain. :ahem: A nightwalker got it because the player did something really stupid; he charged a pair of them knowing exactly what they were and what they could do. I don't think things like that are very fun for players. That's another thread though. They want to play DnD with a twist for the next campaign and everyone with VoP is definitely a twist. I'm going to steal Oakspar77777's zombie adventure from his Lessons from DMing with my GF (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=471897) thread as their first official good guys quest. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. (It's up to 39 pages now, wow!) If the wizard doesn't want to be a psion instead, I'm going to let him do something like sew his spells into his robe or use a ball of string with knots in it to represent his spellbook, though I can't remember where I saw the reference to knots in string as spells. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'll give you a cookie. Don't know about that but Complete Arcane details being a living spellbook by tattooing your spells to your body. Now that's a damn creepy arcanist. Or even more unusual. Have a cohort who serves as your spellbook. "I'll be in my tent.......studying"
Sunic_Flames 03-02-08, 05:02 PM	VoP clerics cannot have a holy symbol. It's in the FAQ. Unless you houserule it, this leads to absurdity like the Pelorite cleric too good to turn undead. :rolleyes:
CrimsonDeath 03-02-08, 05:05 PM	Remember that I'm discussing the variant that doesn't need to scribe it into a spellbook to have it. You capture a spellbook, learn anything in it that you didn't already know and then donate the book. Your reading it did not detract from it's value and it's not a magic item you are using. No violation of the VoP so long as you didn't delay donating it in order to learn something out of it. But learning spells in that manner still costs money. (At least, that's how I remember it... I'd cite the source if I could find it.) Don't know about that but Complete Arcane details being a living spellbook by tattooing your spells to your body. Now that's a damn creepy arcanist. Or even more unusual. Have a cohort who serves as your spellbook. "I'll be in my tent.......studying" Those tattoos cost money, too. At least as much as scribing the same spells into a spellbook. I nearly played such a character once, though. A Geometer, so each spell would only take up one "page". He was still going to carry a traditional spellbook, but lots of important utility spells (especially ones that would be helpful while imprisoned, like Knock, Shatter, and Passwall) were going onto his skin.
someonelse812 03-02-08, 11:14 PM	When you have VoP you can spend XP in place of gold pieces for spel casting. So says BoED P.30. Add that to Eschew Materials and you're 'Good' to go.
Loren Pechtel 03-03-08, 05:06 PM	But learning spells in that manner still costs money. (At least, that's how I remember it... I'd cite the source if I could find it.) The normal cost of learning a spell is scribing it. No scribing = no cost.
CrimsonDeath 03-03-08, 07:12 PM	The normal cost of learning a spell is scribing it. No scribing = no cost. Care to cite a page reference?