All PC's are Sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

All PC's are Sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
johniemi
03-27-07, 12:37 PM All-sorcerer campaign
I'm planning a campaign where all players start as lvl 2 sorcerers. The players have agreed to this and here is a brief overview of the things I plan to do and after that I ask some ideas for the campaign.

SKILL BACKGROUND [Background feat]: As all players "have" to be sorcerers to start with, so I am allowing them to take a feat that will give them 3 skills as class skills - as a 1st level feat only (so humans can take this Skill Background feat two times; 1 x level1 feat, 1 x human bonus feat at 1st lvl).

I am also giving sorcerers 1 bonus feat (like wizard; lvl1,5,10,15 & 20) that can either be a metamagic feat or a draconic feat or infernal sorcerer heritage or celestial sorcerer heritage feat. This is to help with PrC requirements, although PrC's are NOT freely chosen - they can only be acquired thru good skill use (knowledge: local, history, arcana etc.) followed by GOOD ROLEPLAYING.

Every race can multiclass like humans.

Now to the game:

Three players + one NPC "played" by the DM (NOT a DMPC!!)

There are three schools of magic/arcane orders; white, grey and black (good, neutral and evil). The players all choose the same school and same general alignment (e.g., lawful good and 2 x neutral good PC's) according to their school color. They have a mentor (the above NPC) "mage leader" that is at lvl 7 when they start and levels up with the players, thus at some point the players will be of almost equal level as him (as higher lvl chars get less XP than lower lvl chars from the same encounter). When the levels are almost equal the NPC will nominate the PC's as "mage leaders" of their own but that is somewhere in the faraway future so no need to dwell on that too much at this point.

Also, all three schools are in feud; good against evil, and the neutrals are in between these and trying to stay neutral despite the offers/intimidation by the good and evil schools.

The players get quests and missions from their school (which is determined as soon as the players decide which main alignment they want to play) that they must accomplish if they wish to stay in the arcane order.

As a carrot to obeying their superiors, the players know that the schools can make them more powerful (access to mage prestige classes not available elsewhere!) and that they will be punished if they break their code of honor to their school. Also; spell research, boosting rituals, possible bonus feats and qualities can be earned thru good roleplaying and being in the right place at the right time.

And the point of this thread is:

SOooo... after all this babbling can anyone throw around some nice ideas for adventure hooks, small quests, places of power (for sorcerers and gish characters) or whatever "cool" or useful I could use in this campaign. Or if you remember a published/homemade adventure that could have something that you think would fit well here, please let me know about it or tell me the name if it's a published one and I'll look it up.

There are some random starting points I have for quests, like:
-The player's questing group is opposed by a similar group from a different school, or even from the same school that have the same mission, and the group leaders (NPC mentor vs NPC mentor) are in feud and the players have to decide what to do with the opposing group (kill, bluff, sabotage?) and how to finish the task before the other group... or can the PC's get the groups to work together for a greater benefit (diplomacy, intimidate, good RP'ing)?
-The group's objective collides with an another arcane orders' objectives; i.e., if they play white mages and need to destroy an evil relic but at the same time the black mages want to find the item and use it. Maybe they will be offered lots of GP/loot to give up the item, or they will be robbed of the item etc.

As they start at lvl2, their first quest should be something very very easy, probably a straightforward "retrieve magic supplies from the mountains"; there they could meet kobolds and goblins, and the kobolds have some secrets of dragon magic that the players are now made aware of. Also the kobolds will help them with the magic supplies if the PC's sabotage the goblin mines nearby as the kobolds fear that the goblins will dig too deep... for some reason they are afraid to reveal... (what could it be?)

If someone read this far, I am impressed and I hope you have time to reply as I think I have a good campaign brewing up here but sometimes (most times?) I just run out of ideas.

-John
Psychoword
03-27-07, 12:46 PM Although I would be really nervous about you "playing" a lvl7 NPC that joins the group, if you are careful about this and let the party of PC's do the work, it should be all right.

Either way, one adventure hook might be that the PC's are required to do a "survive in the wilderness" run, where they go out with little or no food or water, and try to survive for a week or so. Give them a few small battles, and explore a wilderness area. Put in your own side adventures (lost cave, monsoon storm, etc.) to spice it up a little.

Sounds like fun. For some reason, the whole theme cries out "Final Fantasy VIII" to me, but I'd still enjoy this a lot.

Good luck in your campaign.
green_yawgmoth
03-27-07, 01:23 PM I would be very, VERY wary of playing with that, simply because (a) DMs who require "good roleplaying" to do something tend to not give two pence about the RP, and just go based on favorites, and (b) forcing everyone to be the same basic alignment just screams "DM who can't handle PC arguments and thinks that same alignment = same opinion on everything". Also, I really hate the "you wear a black robe, thus you become evil!" style, as well as "if you're a good little player, I'll give you bonus things, but if you do something I don't like, goodbye hamstrings!" type games.

All in all, it sounds like this game is a recipe for disaster. I can almost guarantee you that one player is going to become a suck-up to get 13 bonus feats and access to some homebrew PrC that gives him double spell slots and a +10 DC/CL. Or one player isn't going to RP exactly the way you want him to, and will become disillusioned when he's behind 5 feats and 100k in items because he didn't want to be shepherded around by this NPC anymore. Or, heaven forbid, one (or more) PC(s) wants to defect to the neutral or evil sides. Or maybe all of the above!

But then again, this is purely my experience speaking. Maybe your players like being told "go here and do this" x100; I get enough of that from quest chains in WoW.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Bruunwald
03-27-07, 02:34 PM This sounds overly complicated. You have a lot of funny little rules flying around that are going to make levelling up a chore each time you do it. Believe me, I've houseruled a few odd characters for complaining players, and less is definitely more with those sorts of things.

If you wanted to add magical flavor to the PCs and the world, probably would have been less complicated to just allow each PC a bonus feat or two from Complete Arcane. There are several feats in there that allow a PC to pick up three related minor spells as if he were a sorcerer.
Kensan_Oni
03-27-07, 02:36 PM Just a few thoughts.

How is your party going to survive the basic encounter that is bound to happen? Party meets party of opposed alignment. Both sides throw equivlent magical force, dealing more damage then either side has hit points. TPK. Game over.

I really, really would think about letting the party multiclass to have the ability to survive.

Furthermore... and this is the thing that I don't get... is you have created this background, gone through all this trouble of world building, and don't have an adventure to put people through? Are you mad? The process of world building should have given you the hooks you needed in the first place.

You have two opposing schools. They fight each other on site, and you have a third school that sits backs and gathers power. The only thing you have left out is why they are fighting. What is it that your groups want? When you have answered that, you will have your plot, and what your adventurers need to be doing.
mcnoo
03-27-07, 02:45 PM I reckon rather than actually being opposed to each other, the different schools of magic should officially remain civil to each other, but be constantly competing and squabbling over power and sinking to new depths of pettiness to get one up on the rivals.
Of course, there's nothing to say each order can't have a secret "black ops" unit hunting down the rivals and sabotaging their plans.
johniemi
03-27-07, 03:52 PM Wow, lots of feedback. I'll try to write something as a reply to all of you.

Starting from the first reply downwards;

Psychoword: I'm trying to first keep the mentor in the background and when they are two-three levels below him, I'll make him accompany the PC's IF they want to take him - they can recline and tell him that they can accomplish the mission themselves. I like your "survive the wilderness" run, easy yet something new to our group and I can throw a few hooks in the wilderness run as well. PS. Never played any FF games ;)

Yawgmoth: Wow... you're really negative aren't you? :) Just kidding. I don't have favorites on my table and I want same "basic" alignment because I have seen enough of my adventures where PC's kill each other over a simple matter like; do we hand this assassin to the justice (lawful good) or do we torture and kill him (chaotic evil). Believe me, our PC's can be very hostile to each other as we are all close friends :) All I ask is that they are from the same "basic" alignment, i.e., GOOD group = lawful, chaotic or neutral good - plenty of variation. And of course, their actions determine their alignment. If they want to turn evil, that's fine with me. And, ALL the three magic schools give same kind of benefits, thus being in a school is just a matter of obeying your superiors, just like we all Finnish men know as we have a compulsory military service (not that bad as you think). If you want a good education - you study like the professor wants you to... If you want a raise - you work like your employer wants you to... If you want arcane power - you complete quests until you are powerful enough to give orders yourself. If you don't want to do quests for the order, then go back working as a farmer or a watchtower guard and die as a nobody. And for the record, I'm not giving anything that I think I wouldn't want to give to the opposing mages... what I mean is, I don't want to give them too much bonuses as that would make my DM'ing harder as I'd have to invest too much time into ultra-customized NPC's as well. And like I said, alignment can be changed with your actions and if an alignment changes, you may try to apply for an another school (an adventure in itself). And yes, my players like to do "easy" quests like "retrieve this item from person X", and I do my best to twist the quests and throw in random hooks, i.e., the last time they retrieved an item from the plane of shadow (after searching for weeks how to get there, how to defeat the undead etc etc) but in the end, the person who gave the quest - a nobleman who they trusted - was a bad guy in disguise (yes, I gave them sense motive/spot/disguise checks etc) who then took the item and used it for evil... and now they want to find the nobleman... thus again a new quest etc etc. So you see, simple quests sometimes get very hard and not that simple when there are random variables thrown in.

Bruunwald: What funny rules? I really don't understand what's so complicated in one new feat and a few bonus Sorcerer level feats.

Kensan: Good point about the party meeting an opposed party. But I think my PC's deserve to die if they are stupid enough to engage in an all-out battle without doing anything to gain an upper hand. If they want battle, they will most likely bluff and then strike when their guard is down or do something else... they are very clever and sneaky sobs. But if they want to have a stupid slugfest, then yes, it does look like a 50%-50% chance to survive. Yes, I created the background today, I have thought about this campaign for like an hour TOTAL, so yes, I don't have a world yet. I'm not that fast :) These are just some random ideas thrown around. The schools have some sort of an ancient rivalry that can be sorted out when the PC's are at high levels, I'm not sure yet what it is but it could involve something between angels and devils or something... maybe you give me an idea? ;) Remember though that rivalries between power-hungry leaders may be just stupid excuses to get rid of the other party, and there might not even be a solid reason for a war.

mcnoo: You are right, the rivalry is not an all-out war. YET. Just a matter of staying on the other side of the bar when having a drink, maybe getting into verbal conflict which sometimes escalates into minor violent behavior... this could then escalate as the campaign goes on (But why? Any ideas?). Black ops; this is what I like. And a nice way to add rogue to the list of possible characters.

Thank you to all, I look forward in reading more opinions as that's what helps me develop this campaign.

-John
maragin
03-27-07, 07:29 PM Once a year, the opposing schools should have a showdown.

Hold it in an arena which is a "perfect" anti magic field. The group of level2's or whatever is thrown into the gladiator style arena, and all the older students watch the 3 sides battle it out with fists, knives, and staves. A team of combat medics rescue the fallen, and the battle goes on until one side is victorious.

I find the idea of 3 groups of spellcasters having to duke it out amusing.
green_yawgmoth
03-27-07, 08:17 PM Well, like I said, if your players like it, go nuts. I'm just saying that in MY experience, games like this fall apart because someone wants to break the "mold" that you've layed out. "Quests" in the classic sense can be fun (else I wouldn't play WoW), but I hope to god that you've got more than just a lot of "go here, do this, report back" stuff. But I know that me and mine play D&D to get away from the "go/do/report" that is life and MMORPGs; there's not much "adventuring" when all you're doing are assignments.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 03-27-07, 12:37 PM	All-sorcerer campaign I'm planning a campaign where all players start as lvl 2 sorcerers. The players have agreed to this and here is a brief overview of the things I plan to do and after that I ask some ideas for the campaign. SKILL BACKGROUND [Background feat]: As all players "have" to be sorcerers to start with, so I am allowing them to take a feat that will give them 3 skills as class skills - as a 1st level feat only (so humans can take this Skill Background feat two times; 1 x level1 feat, 1 x human bonus feat at 1st lvl). I am also giving sorcerers 1 bonus feat (like wizard; lvl1,5,10,15 & 20) that can either be a metamagic feat or a draconic feat or infernal sorcerer heritage or celestial sorcerer heritage feat. This is to help with PrC requirements, although PrC's are NOT freely chosen - they can only be acquired thru good skill use (knowledge: local, history, arcana etc.) followed by GOOD ROLEPLAYING. Every race can multiclass like humans. Now to the game: Three players + one NPC "played" by the DM (NOT a DMPC!!) There are three schools of magic/arcane orders; white, grey and black (good, neutral and evil). The players all choose the same school and same general alignment (e.g., lawful good and 2 x neutral good PC's) according to their school color. They have a mentor (the above NPC) "mage leader" that is at lvl 7 when they start and levels up with the players, thus at some point the players will be of almost equal level as him (as higher lvl chars get less XP than lower lvl chars from the same encounter). When the levels are almost equal the NPC will nominate the PC's as "mage leaders" of their own but that is somewhere in the faraway future so no need to dwell on that too much at this point. Also, all three schools are in feud; good against evil, and the neutrals are in between these and trying to stay neutral despite the offers/intimidation by the good and evil schools. The players get quests and missions from their school (which is determined as soon as the players decide which main alignment they want to play) that they must accomplish if they wish to stay in the arcane order. As a carrot to obeying their superiors, the players know that the schools can make them more powerful (access to mage prestige classes not available elsewhere!) and that they will be punished if they break their code of honor to their school. Also; spell research, boosting rituals, possible bonus feats and qualities can be earned thru good roleplaying and being in the right place at the right time. And the point of this thread is: SOooo... after all this babbling can anyone throw around some nice ideas for adventure hooks, small quests, places of power (for sorcerers and gish characters) or whatever "cool" or useful I could use in this campaign. Or if you remember a published/homemade adventure that could have something that you think would fit well here, please let me know about it or tell me the name if it's a published one and I'll look it up. There are some random starting points I have for quests, like: -The player's questing group is opposed by a similar group from a different school, or even from the same school that have the same mission, and the group leaders (NPC mentor vs NPC mentor) are in feud and the players have to decide what to do with the opposing group (kill, bluff, sabotage?) and how to finish the task before the other group... or can the PC's get the groups to work together for a greater benefit (diplomacy, intimidate, good RP'ing)? -The group's objective collides with an another arcane orders' objectives; i.e., if they play white mages and need to destroy an evil relic but at the same time the black mages want to find the item and use it. Maybe they will be offered lots of GP/loot to give up the item, or they will be robbed of the item etc. As they start at lvl2, their first quest should be something very very easy, probably a straightforward "retrieve magic supplies from the mountains"; there they could meet kobolds and goblins, and the kobolds have some secrets of dragon magic that the players are now made aware of. Also the kobolds will help them with the magic supplies if the PC's sabotage the goblin mines nearby as the kobolds fear that the goblins will dig too deep... for some reason they are afraid to reveal... (what could it be?) If someone read this far, I am impressed and I hope you have time to reply as I think I have a good campaign brewing up here but sometimes (most times?) I just run out of ideas. -John
Psychoword 03-27-07, 12:46 PM	Although I would be really nervous about you "playing" a lvl7 NPC that joins the group, if you are careful about this and let the party of PC's do the work, it should be all right. Either way, one adventure hook might be that the PC's are required to do a "survive in the wilderness" run, where they go out with little or no food or water, and try to survive for a week or so. Give them a few small battles, and explore a wilderness area. Put in your own side adventures (lost cave, monsoon storm, etc.) to spice it up a little. Sounds like fun. For some reason, the whole theme cries out "Final Fantasy VIII" to me, but I'd still enjoy this a lot. Good luck in your campaign.
green_yawgmoth 03-27-07, 01:23 PM	I would be very, VERY wary of playing with that, simply because (a) DMs who require "good roleplaying" to do something tend to not give two pence about the RP, and just go based on favorites, and (b) forcing everyone to be the same basic alignment just screams "DM who can't handle PC arguments and thinks that same alignment = same opinion on everything". Also, I really hate the "you wear a black robe, thus you become evil!" style, as well as "if you're a good little player, I'll give you bonus things, but if you do something I don't like, goodbye hamstrings!" type games. All in all, it sounds like this game is a recipe for disaster. I can almost guarantee you that one player is going to become a suck-up to get 13 bonus feats and access to some homebrew PrC that gives him double spell slots and a +10 DC/CL. Or one player isn't going to RP exactly the way you want him to, and will become disillusioned when he's behind 5 feats and 100k in items because he didn't want to be shepherded around by this NPC anymore. Or, heaven forbid, one (or more) PC(s) wants to defect to the neutral or evil sides. Or maybe all of the above! But then again, this is purely my experience speaking. Maybe your players like being told "go here and do this" x100; I get enough of that from quest chains in WoW. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Bruunwald 03-27-07, 02:34 PM	This sounds overly complicated. You have a lot of funny little rules flying around that are going to make levelling up a chore each time you do it. Believe me, I've houseruled a few odd characters for complaining players, and less is definitely more with those sorts of things. If you wanted to add magical flavor to the PCs and the world, probably would have been less complicated to just allow each PC a bonus feat or two from Complete Arcane. There are several feats in there that allow a PC to pick up three related minor spells as if he were a sorcerer.
Kensan_Oni 03-27-07, 02:36 PM	Just a few thoughts. How is your party going to survive the basic encounter that is bound to happen? Party meets party of opposed alignment. Both sides throw equivlent magical force, dealing more damage then either side has hit points. TPK. Game over. I really, really would think about letting the party multiclass to have the ability to survive. Furthermore... and this is the thing that I don't get... is you have created this background, gone through all this trouble of world building, and don't have an adventure to put people through? Are you mad? The process of world building should have given you the hooks you needed in the first place. You have two opposing schools. They fight each other on site, and you have a third school that sits backs and gathers power. The only thing you have left out is why they are fighting. What is it that your groups want? When you have answered that, you will have your plot, and what your adventurers need to be doing.
mcnoo 03-27-07, 02:45 PM	I reckon rather than actually being opposed to each other, the different schools of magic should officially remain civil to each other, but be constantly competing and squabbling over power and sinking to new depths of pettiness to get one up on the rivals. Of course, there's nothing to say each order can't have a secret "black ops" unit hunting down the rivals and sabotaging their plans.
johniemi 03-27-07, 03:52 PM	Wow, lots of feedback. I'll try to write something as a reply to all of you. Starting from the first reply downwards; Psychoword: I'm trying to first keep the mentor in the background and when they are two-three levels below him, I'll make him accompany the PC's IF they want to take him - they can recline and tell him that they can accomplish the mission themselves. I like your "survive the wilderness" run, easy yet something new to our group and I can throw a few hooks in the wilderness run as well. PS. Never played any FF games ;) Yawgmoth: Wow... you're really negative aren't you? :) Just kidding. I don't have favorites on my table and I want same "basic" alignment because I have seen enough of my adventures where PC's kill each other over a simple matter like; do we hand this assassin to the justice (lawful good) or do we torture and kill him (chaotic evil). Believe me, our PC's can be very hostile to each other as we are all close friends :) All I ask is that they are from the same "basic" alignment, i.e., GOOD group = lawful, chaotic or neutral good - plenty of variation. And of course, their actions determine their alignment. If they want to turn evil, that's fine with me. And, ALL the three magic schools give same kind of benefits, thus being in a school is just a matter of obeying your superiors, just like we all Finnish men know as we have a compulsory military service (not that bad as you think). If you want a good education - you study like the professor wants you to... If you want a raise - you work like your employer wants you to... If you want arcane power - you complete quests until you are powerful enough to give orders yourself. If you don't want to do quests for the order, then go back working as a farmer or a watchtower guard and die as a nobody. And for the record, I'm not giving anything that I think I wouldn't want to give to the opposing mages... what I mean is, I don't want to give them too much bonuses as that would make my DM'ing harder as I'd have to invest too much time into ultra-customized NPC's as well. And like I said, alignment can be changed with your actions and if an alignment changes, you may try to apply for an another school (an adventure in itself). And yes, my players like to do "easy" quests like "retrieve this item from person X", and I do my best to twist the quests and throw in random hooks, i.e., the last time they retrieved an item from the plane of shadow (after searching for weeks how to get there, how to defeat the undead etc etc) but in the end, the person who gave the quest - a nobleman who they trusted - was a bad guy in disguise (yes, I gave them sense motive/spot/disguise checks etc) who then took the item and used it for evil... and now they want to find the nobleman... thus again a new quest etc etc. So you see, simple quests sometimes get very hard and not that simple when there are random variables thrown in. Bruunwald: What funny rules? I really don't understand what's so complicated in one new feat and a few bonus Sorcerer level feats. Kensan: Good point about the party meeting an opposed party. But I think my PC's deserve to die if they are stupid enough to engage in an all-out battle without doing anything to gain an upper hand. If they want battle, they will most likely bluff and then strike when their guard is down or do something else... they are very clever and sneaky sobs. But if they want to have a stupid slugfest, then yes, it does look like a 50%-50% chance to survive. Yes, I created the background today, I have thought about this campaign for like an hour TOTAL, so yes, I don't have a world yet. I'm not that fast :) These are just some random ideas thrown around. The schools have some sort of an ancient rivalry that can be sorted out when the PC's are at high levels, I'm not sure yet what it is but it could involve something between angels and devils or something... maybe you give me an idea? ;) Remember though that rivalries between power-hungry leaders may be just stupid excuses to get rid of the other party, and there might not even be a solid reason for a war. mcnoo: You are right, the rivalry is not an all-out war. YET. Just a matter of staying on the other side of the bar when having a drink, maybe getting into verbal conflict which sometimes escalates into minor violent behavior... this could then escalate as the campaign goes on (But why? Any ideas?). Black ops; this is what I like. And a nice way to add rogue to the list of possible characters. Thank you to all, I look forward in reading more opinions as that's what helps me develop this campaign. -John
maragin 03-27-07, 07:29 PM	Once a year, the opposing schools should have a showdown. Hold it in an arena which is a "perfect" anti magic field. The group of level2's or whatever is thrown into the gladiator style arena, and all the older students watch the 3 sides battle it out with fists, knives, and staves. A team of combat medics rescue the fallen, and the battle goes on until one side is victorious. I find the idea of 3 groups of spellcasters having to duke it out amusing.
green_yawgmoth 03-27-07, 08:17 PM	Well, like I said, if your players like it, go nuts. I'm just saying that in MY experience, games like this fall apart because someone wants to break the "mold" that you've layed out. "Quests" in the classic sense can be fun (else I wouldn't play WoW), but I hope to god that you've got more than just a lot of "go here, do this, report back" stuff. But I know that me and mine play D&D to get away from the "go/do/report" that is life and MMORPGs; there's not much "adventuring" when all you're doing are assignments. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif