Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 07-09-05, 12:06 PM	I'm looking to make a character that specializes in shapeshifting - with the Master of Many Forms and Warshaper PrCs. I'm wanting it mainly for flavor and RP reasons, as well as the flexibility that comes from the ability to become nearly anything. My character, flavorwise, will be obsessed with lycanthropes and anything else that has the (shapeshifter) subtype. He is descended from a rakshasa, although he's not evil. My question, though, is how you would handle having a character like that in your campaign. When my character's abilities could potentially spell ruin to your plot points, your (evil) NPCs, and generally make life a headache for you. Would you reward creative uses of shapeshifting, or would you penalize me for derailing your campaign? Just curious (but in a very important way). Thanks in advance, -Ly
Murr-Quan Lord #2 07-09-05, 12:13 PM	I'd likely handle it the way I did Psionics. Allow it completely, work with the player to integrate it, and figure out what the real-world ramifications would be. Then, if it (or the way you were using it) proved to be a problem, I'd maybe try to figure out how to set your char aside as a "guest star" and ask you to make a new character.
Lycanthromancer 07-09-05, 12:20 PM	I'm not saying that I would TRY to derail the campaign or cause the DM grief, it's just that those abilities have the POTENTIAL to do so. I have experience with several DMs that got really upset when the players did something unexpected or overly-intelligent. Sad, really. BUT, I just wanted some idea of what to expect when I find another group to play with. :D
MinusInnocence 07-09-05, 01:15 PM	I would never allow a character with more than one PrC. That's just ridiculous. But, I wouldn't penalize anyone for "derailing my campaign." That implies something about my campaigns which isn't true; there isn't a rail to fall from. Of course, if your character was head and shoulders above the rest of the party, it probably wouldn't be fun for anyone else. If every challenge was circumvented because of a specific PC's cleverness and adaptability, eventually the game revolves around him. That's no fun for anyone. If that happened, it wouldn't matter what the game-breaking issue is... the character would have to be retired. There is nothing inherently wrong with powergaming; indeed, it seems natural to want to maximize your character's advantages while minimizing his shortcomings. Problems only arise when the balance is lost. You should share your ideas with your DM and the rest of the group. If your idea gets the thumb's up, then it's no longer your responsibility. Good luck!
Light of Day 07-09-05, 01:32 PM	The best thing you can do is talk to your DM about it. Make sure he knows your characters full capailities and knows why your worried about de-railing his campaign. Chances are, even if you do end up de-railing the campaign, your DM will be a lot less likely to think you did it on purpose if you ran it by him first. And if he really doesn't want you playing something like that, he can just say no. That said, I'd be happy if my players responded to my adventures with that level of inginuity, as long as I didn't think they were trying to pull a fast one and de-rail my campaign.
Lycanthromancer 07-09-05, 01:51 PM	As to the idea of taking more than one PrC: It seems as though the MoMF and the Warshaper are simply made to complement each other. Taking levels in both makes sense from both an in-character and an out-of-character point of view. It's kind of like taking levels in both Rogue and Ranger - they simply click together. Anyway, I try not to hog the spotlight, but if all anyone else does is, "I run up to the monster. I attack it. I hit/miss. NEXT!" and I have a great idea for taking out the badguys, such as, "I cut the rope attached to the ship's sail, covering our foes. I cut a hole and escape, then set the sail on fire.", then it's not really fair to curtail my creativity, is it? Hopefully, I can find a group that encourages creative thinking. That's part of what roleplaying is about, isn't it? [edit, rant]By-the-by, what, exactly, is wrong with taking more than one PrC? I could see level-dipping and making a gimped-out class combo being curtailed (lvl 6 this class/lvl 1 that class/lvl 2 the other class/lvl 2 yet another class, etc), but the MoMF and Warshaper neither one grant the other overly-powerful combos (at least, not much moreso than, say, single-classing a Druid). Since one is a 5-lvl PrC, and I plan on taking full progression in both classes, it shouldn't be too bad, right? I don't want to go TOO far off-topic, but there should be exceptions to most rules, and in this case I think that the two are an excellent match for each other.[/edit, /rant]
Elrana 07-09-05, 03:36 PM	I would never allow a character with more than one PrC. That's just ridiculous. So my Lvl 6 Wizard who completed 10 levels in Mage of the Arcane Order and now has 2 levels of Loremaster is ridiculous? How? Ridiculous in character concept? Ridiculous as obviously I must be a Power Gamer? Ridiculous in what terms? Personally I allow certain PrC combinations, any 'standard' PrC I will allow PCs to dip into, that especially includes Warshaper, a PrC based on a PC discovering about his own innate abilities as a result of being able to manipulate his body, a journey that could easily take a life time to complete and can easily and readily be put on hold to allow other learning. Certain PrCs I would insist on being followed until complete, Acolyte of the Skin for example, the sacrifice and personal suffering involed are such that I would expect a player to play a PC who is truly obsessed with the idea of the transformation, only a serious reassessment of character (in-game, maybe being redeemed or something) would make me allow a PC to move out before it is finished. Aside from that I would say, frankly, that a natural shapeshifter who doesn't take a couple of levels of Warshaper is just being silly! Meanwhile, back on topic, um, I wouldn't have a problem as a DM and have DMed for shapeshifters in the past with no problem. I find that I prefer my players to push me as a DM than for me to be able to sit back unchallenged. I push my players thus allowing them a sense of accomplishment, that is why they enjoy playing my games, why shouldn't I be pushed and so enjoy my game as well?! :)
imperialjunkie 07-09-05, 03:39 PM	I'd be fine with it if it was plausible. You'll have to be creative in how to weave the character in to the group though. But that's fun.
was_fired 07-09-05, 03:49 PM	I have to agree that the warshaper and MoMF are pretty much built for each other. The only other PrC which comes close to fitting the MoMF as well as the warshaper is natures warrior, and both of these fit better than a druid after you decide to go MoMF. All of these PrCs involve losing druid spellcasting in this case, and that really hurts.
Aeromus 07-09-05, 05:28 PM	I'd say "NO" at character creation.
Lycanthromancer 07-10-05, 11:29 AM	I'd say "NO" at character creation.How insightful... Anyway, Thanks for the feedback, everyone. What kinds of problems (if any) has anyone come up with during their games for something like this? Or, to put it another way, what problems do you think could come of it?
kliate 07-10-05, 02:21 PM	I think that in order to advance this discussion, we should look at what benefits and countermeasures exist for shapechangers. Benefits: -Appear as whomever or whatever. This is useful for infiltration, escaping conflict or messing around with NPCs in the worst way. -Access to vast numbers of abilities. Need to break down a door? Take the form of a Dire Bear and use your +14 mod to break objects. Need to fly away quickly? The form of an eagle does the job splendidly. Balance across a narrow beam, or slip through a tiny hole? Try taking the shape of a rat. This is perhaps one of the greatest benefits available to most shapechangers. -Surprising your enemies. They thought they were dealing with an unarmored, unarmed man? Too bad that now they're facing down a dragon. Now, these benefits aren't without certain shortcomings. Consider the following... -Disguise checks. If you truly want to convince someone that you're something else, you'll have to make disguise checks. Without a heavy investment of ranks in that skill, Bob the ranger may notice that there's something different about that Tiger's roar. -True Seeing. This will break through all manner of magical disguises, and there's naught which you can do about it. -Prepared opponents. NPCs that are hunting a known shapechanger will be prepared for nearly everything. Silvered weapons if it's a lycanthrope, ranged weapons if it's a flyer, and possibly even a wide variety of Bane arrows should your magic actually change your type. A shapechanging PC can add a great deal of complication for a DM...and this is probably why most significant shapechanging spells and abilities aren't accessible at first level. Regardless, unless the whole party consists of shapechangers it is unlikely that they'll slip from mess to mess with any ease. If the whole party does consist of shapechangers, then I'd suggest that you run with it...you have the workings of a very interesting campaign at that point.
Norhg 07-10-05, 02:39 PM	-Disguise checks. If you truly want to convince someone that you're something else, you'll have to make disguise checks. Without a heavy investment of ranks in that skill, Bob the ranger may notice that there's something different about that Tiger's roar. -True Seeing. This will break through all manner of magical disguises, and there's naught which you can do about it. -Prepared opponents. NPCs that are hunting a known shapechanger will be prepared for nearly everything. Silvered weapons if it's a lycanthrope, ranged weapons if it's a flyer, and possibly even a wide variety of Bane arrows should your magic actually change your type. I had want to add the Sense Motive-skill to this. After three rounds of combat one can make a dc 15+oneperenemy check to discern their true motives behind their fighting. If a bear is trying to capture you? Something is wrong... Dc 20, "hunch". Spoken with that shapechanged creature a minute? You get a hunch. Needless to say, Shapechangers are nothing new. Any Wizard has been able to become anything for years. Roll with it if it works in your campaign. And I would reward creative uses. But I don't want a "lone wolf" type character.
Raiden Drake 07-10-05, 03:24 PM	I have a player, he is a cleric/sorcerer/Dweomerkeeper what he do is use polymorph any objet to transform herself and the party monk (they dont have a figther, go figure) into giants, it was ok at first, they are a very magic focus party so they figth many casters, a dispel magic was all that i need to bring them back to they original form... then he did it supernatural what i do? well frist of all, they dont want them in any city, which is a minor problem they still have the other cleric and the other wizard to do all the talking second, because they been hunting this secret society of wizard-rakshasa and are starting to be a real problem for them i "make" them create a spell similar to break enchantment, that "free" the "victim" of any form of transmutation Break Transmutation Abjuration Level: wiz/sor 9 Casting time : 1 standar action Range: close Targets: one creature Duration: Instantaneous Will: yes (negates), see text SR: yes, se text This spell Break any kind of transmutation on the target, even instantaneous effect or supernatural abilities. For each of such effect, you make a caster level check(1d20 + caster level, maximun +25) Against a DC of 11+caster level Shapeshifters or creatures with the supernatural ability of alter self, polymorph self, or similar must make a will save to be afected by the spell, SR aplies to these creatures The efect on this creatures is to return them to whatever form they call original and negates the ability to change back for one turn/2 caster level A chaos beast is no afected by this spell