Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 05-21-07, 03:14 PM	my PC more and more are using the Orb spells, Arc of Lightning, and similar, which don't allow spell resistance, to utterly annihilate foes...The orb spells have enough flexability of energy damage that they can just pick one that isnt resisted and blow away, etc...now, these spells exist, the world know about em, so how does the intelligent villain prepare for something that he can't SR, DR, and has to hit his touch AC? and heaven help him if it crits...
the_Luggage 05-21-07, 03:19 PM	potions of spells of energy resistence or protection from energy, force armour like mage armour or shield, Invisibility, incorporeality, tons of hit points, minions that disrupt spell casting, cover, and buffs like cats grace and bears endurance to let them dodge the damage or take it on the chin.
weasel0 05-21-07, 03:24 PM	Deflection bonus FTW. Bunches of little mooks to soak up the dmg for him.
Empiro 05-21-07, 03:28 PM	Or just say, "sorry, no orbs?" I know many DMs dislike the flavor of the orb line of spells, and just disallow them or have them allow SR.
the_Luggage 05-21-07, 03:33 PM	You'll probably get backlash from your players if they like them so much. But there are plenty of ways around it, especially for an opponent who has been studying them.
allenchan 05-21-07, 04:34 PM	well, they require a ranged touch attack to hit. Consider lots of high level baddies, they tend to have a lot of natural armor (like dragons). So, there's a spell in the SC: Scintillating Scales. Makes those high nat-ac monsters much scarier to ray users.
Kursk 05-21-07, 05:54 PM	Or just say, "sorry, no orbs?" I know many DMs dislike the flavor of the orb line of spells, and just disallow them or have them allow SR. I allow SR for orbs if I allow them in a game.
Vengeblade 05-21-07, 07:41 PM	I stopped fighting with orbs once I realized it wasn't that dangerous. The biggest problem with these spells, is that, by choosing it you give up other good options. They can only affect a single target, while lower level spells (i.e. fireball, lightning bolt) can do the same damage to multiple creatures. Phantasmal killer, enervation, greater invisibility, wall of ice, and backlash all have better usage in my campaigns. Granted, agaisnt a single foe with SR, the orbs are good. Heaven forbid, wizards with IQs above 160 make spells to deal with specific foes. Use multiple opponents, or just use foes with no SR. Because when you use non-SR creatures and they still use the orbs, it's not as effective as other spells would be for that level. Players might not realize it, but you do and that alone made me feel better till I got over the whole thing in its entirety.
the_Luggage 05-21-07, 07:45 PM	Yup. And a lot of things with Sr also have resistance to various elements and immunity to some. So if you want to mess with them, tack on a ring of protection from whatever element they don't already have protection from, problem solved. With dragons, a couple of 2nd level spells and you're away.
Halflingtoes 05-21-07, 09:03 PM	Not quite true, I've yet to see a resistance to Force or Sonic. The reserve feats (which I believe according to official sources are also not subject to SR and have no Saving throw) allow for a way to blast through minions without expending a spell slot. The ability to cast them while invisible knocks off dex and dodge bonuses, and the range of the spells let you cast from well outside of blindsight/see invisible range. Mage armor spells may protect against incorporeal touch attacks, but not touch attacks in general. Also there are more conjuration spells, such as Blast of Fire, that are AoE spells without SR. I'm not sure who at Wizard decided that SR was an outdated concept and that 'Conjuration is the new Evocation', but it causes a great deal of problems.
the_Luggage 05-21-07, 09:06 PM	Well resistance to force we'll probably never see. But sonic resistance exists. Hmmm. That is slightly more difficult. What about an antimagic field?
runestar 05-21-07, 10:43 PM	Orbs penetrate AMFs (assuming they were cast outside of one). They are instantaneous conjurations after all. Miss chances, such as from blur or displacement help. I admit they are annoying, but I don't really see anything overpowering about them. Their damage is not really that stellar (for a 4th lv spell), and it hits only a single target. Perhaps they excel against certain foes (like dragons), but I am sure there are scenarios where they are sub-optimal, compared to say, fireball or evard's tentacles.:)
AtmaWeapon 05-21-07, 10:45 PM	In fairness, about everything is suboptimal compared to Evard's :P
Halflingtoes 05-21-07, 11:02 PM	Well resistance to force we'll probably never see. But sonic resistance exists. Hmmm. That is slightly more difficult. What about an antimagic field? Ah, good to know, I've never seen a sonic resistance, do you recall off hand where it's from? Antimagic field works, if the mage is in it, but it's kind of a one trick pony. The other thing I've done once was worked to give my BBEG a very high touch AC, uncanny dodge, and the spell reflection substitution feature (CM) to toss the orb spells back in the mages face, but again, it would become a repetative situation to put the PCs in. One of the things that gives a good indication of the impact of orb spells is that Golems are now a joke to mages. With the Energy Gestalt Tactical feat from CM and Orb spells, a mage can blast through a Golem in just a few rounds. Another good indication is the disdain players cast on the evocation school now, if they specialize, they specilize in conjuration. Mages in general have become problemic in games lately. Between shield, greater mage armor, monk's belt, and a few other minor magic items, the mages in my game typically have the highest AC in the party (pushing over 30), with heart of earth, they have very respectable hit points, and of course coupled with the other three, immune to critical hits. Not to mention it's pretty common for them to be 2-5 caster levels above their hit die for at least one energy type, and you can quickly find that your 'appropriate level encounter' just got blown away in two rounds because your 10th level mage is dropping empowered 14d6 orbs of fire. What is suboptimal about a 15d6 (max) spell (that can crit) that has no save and is not subject to SR? Not a whole lot, really.
Terraneaux 05-21-07, 11:34 PM	Throw them up against clerics with Energy Immunity cast multiple times. Orb spells are cool, but I'd rather be casting Solid Fog. A good tactic for wizards I've found is to put distance between you and the opponent and to use the Lesser Orb spells in wands to plink them to death while they're stuck in something nasty like an Acid Fog or whatever.
primemover003 05-22-07, 12:00 AM	One most effective approach is to recreate the Psionic Power Energy Adaptation as a spell. Resistance to all 5 energies at once for a 4th level spell! Energy Adaptation Psychometabolism [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4 Display: Visual; see text Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 7 Your body assimilates some of the effect of an energy attack and converts it to harmless light. You gain resistance 10 against any attack that deals acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage. When you absorb damage, you can choose to radiate visible light that illuminates a 60-foot radius for a number of rounds equal to the points of damage you successfully resisted, or merely dissipate the energy without giving off a visual display. The energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points at 9th manifester level and to a maximum of 30 points at 13th level. The power protects your equipment as well. The resistance provided by this power does not stack with other forms of energy resistance. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of damage it protects against. Augment If you spend 4 additional power points, you can manifest this power as an immediate action.
CroBob 05-22-07, 12:08 AM	Solution; Give evokers their blasting back. Make the spells evocation and allow SR. I see no reason it wouldn't give spell resistance. What's the difference between a fireball and an orb of fire? If the orb is not magical, what makes it remain an orb while in flight towards it's target. QED.
Optimized_Commoner 05-22-07, 12:50 AM	What's the difference between a fireball and an orb of fire? Orb of fire bypasses SR! That's it, that's the entire point of the spell. You don't like that? Don't have Orb of Fire.
sabrewolf 05-22-07, 02:14 AM	I see the point of Orb spells as ranged touch spells - or that´s how my group sees them, easy to-hit big guns. Against them i´ve seen medium chalenges being mowed down like butter under a plasma torch, or a somewhat chalenging foe being greatly softened and/or defeated quickly once the wizard turned his atention to him... :twitch: Yet I´m not so worried. As said by others, no SR spells are key when you face a SR foe, trow in oponents without SR and the advantage ends. Also, give them other ways to avoid spells and SR becomes less of an issue. But that´s for foes that have knowledge of the group and their tactics or whose tactic´s most obvious opposer would be anti-SR (or orb) foccused spells. Those would be expected to have tactics to deal specificly with those annoying spells. I could say, though, that even without such a device you can still opose your party with things that makes such spells still an advantage, but less an allways-winner: - Unexpected preparedness: Foes can be ready against some things even when the party expects them not. Fire is the most common form of damage, so you can give a worried someone itens of resistance and even imunity to it. Those with a weakness, known or not, are allways expected to have a way to deal with that (like giving a white dragon a fire related iten to his heard), but what about the others? A clever one wouldnt spend too much resources on their weakness if they were known (ike in the case of dragons) but would divert some to the more probable choice (in the white dragon´s case, probably lightning) and have some way to deal with that as well. Those not over-confident on their strenghts, if knowing of ways that could be used agaisnt them, could consider paralell protections to face these cases. In the case of SR, itens that can reflect or block some spells (like the ivulnerability orb series) can either be the key agaisnt SR-foccused casters as well as an extra time to be used to deal with such caster with less worry. - Environment bonus: At least for orbs, the need to hit can be used against the caster. Force armours and deflectin bonus can be usefull but sometimes they are obvious and dispell priority targets. The environment on the other paw is usually not eligible to dispell, making fogs, rain, strong winds, darkness and the like good options if the oponent can choose his battleground. For a melee these can give them the time they need to close in with the spellcasters, shifting his atention from support/damage-dealing to fleeing/defensive. For ranged oponents, cover and natural darkness are the best choices to increase the likeness of a miss by such spells. The situation can also bring an advantage: fights on cliffs while climbing; dangerous, unstable or slippery slopes; ice; a ships swaying deck.. If they have to keep their atention elsewhere, shooting and hitting (with these spells or else) can be harder, not to mention casting them to begin with. Dennying them a clear target (or more exactly limiting it) is another good choice, either by limiting the battle to close quarters (too many obstacles for example) or by pitting them agaisnt a crowd (or many big foes) can be seen as a protection by the leaders further back in battle or battling elsewhere. There´s also the choice of continuous battle. More many small battles then big ones, these are known ways to drain the group´s resources and power. Placing a mid-chalenge mini-boss like battle amidst this string of small combats puts such casters in a choice: either use these spells to clear quickly these mini-bosses or save them in fear of something bigger and meaner in the end of the dungeon. The use of compound bosses - 2 or 3 - instead of a single uber-powerfull one is too a good choice, forcing such a decision on where/on who to shoot the orbs. Another bit, unless the group made a good research in case of energy resistant foes - an on that case they earned their advanage - it´s more likely that a wizard with orbs and the like prepared are "ready for everything" with few spells for each element ready (for flexibility) instead of many for a single one or two, meaning they are good to end up "out of ammo" quickly. Summing up, while there´s little way to fully block no-SR and/or touch atack spells, there are ways to both lessen the advantage such spells give and to give an advantage to the BBEGs. The only trick is not abusing the receipt (like all, too much of something is hardly good). I, at least, hardly foccus on specific spells or class trait when designing my oponents, instead of foccus on the oponents themselves, on what they´d have or do; and on the place where the battle will happen (specially if it´s the BBEG´s choosen battleground). That helps me avoid making foes against one or another PC or at least at least seeming to be doing so. A far from short reply :whatsthis but hope it was helpfull.... Good luck with your group... and take care.. ;)
Derren S. 05-22-07, 02:25 AM	The (imo) best solution it to pray to the supreme overlord of the universe (=DM) who then takes his pencil of nothingness (=Big black textmarker) and with it removes the orb spells from existence (crosses them out). Someone on ENworld made a calculation and according to it at higher level you have to get four enemies in an area spell to match the damage a orb can do to a single target (Calculation includes chance to make reflex saves and SR). So the orbs not only do more damage than area spells unaffected by saves and evasion, they also have an additional effect, bypass SR which should theoretically be the supreme defense against magic and they are also in the wrong school, stealing evocation its role as damage dealing school. Plus they are flat out silly. When you know that you will face an enemy with a energy vulnerability, then preparing as many Orbs with all metamagi feats you can afford is a no brainer. You only need to dispell any energy protection and then the target is death. It gets even easier when you use those "Bypass energy resistance" feats from the environmental books. When I read such spells like the Orbs I get the impressions that the designers don't think at all when writing books. Those orbs are so obviously broken. Yet I´m not so worried. As said by others, no SR spells are key when you face a SR foe, trow in oponents without SR and the advantage ends. Also, give them other ways to avoid spells and SR becomes less of an issue. No, when facing an opponent with high SR, spells which buff and protect your party members so that they can deal with the enemy are key. But some designer apparently though that wizards also need a way to easily destroy monsters which only purpose is to be hard to kill with magic.
danielinthewolvesden 05-22-07, 02:51 AM	Blur. Minor Displacement, Major displacement. There are seveal 2nd level spells that give 20% Concealment (Blur, Veil of Shadows) and several magic items, including a rather cool one that is rather cheap and give blur 3x a day as a swift action- some sort of draconic circlet. Anyway, there is not a BBEG alive who can not have a potion of blur to quaff. Anyway, the foes can easily have 20% concealment. Thus, Orbs miss 20% of the time. At higher levels, make it 50%. Add to that a higher touch AC- more Dex, more rings, luck bonuses, ect. Make those mages work for that hit (they do have a cruddy BAB after all), so they at least need to roll a 12. So that is a miss 60% of the time. Potion of Divine sheild,or whatever. AND THEY STACK. A potion of Resist energy Sonic is also dirt cheap. Bye-bye 1st 10 points of orb. Fewer BBEG more mooks, more encounters. There are very few problems with spells or psionic that can not be solved by just having an extra encounter per day and watching them blow all their spells/PP on some low level mooks. Heck for extra fun, have the monsters in that extra encounter be such low level that only the lowest level guy in the party even gets eps from them- the mages will STILL blast away.:D
sabrewolf 05-22-07, 03:26 AM	@ Derren S.: While not oposing your sayings, I do believe you misunderestood a little my words at your quoting me. Mayhaps I failed at wording it well - it happens (and is most likely the case). My comment was fully from a DM perspective (as oposed to a PC party), about no-SR affected spells Vs. foes with SR. Just clarifying myself for future members that might reply to this topic. ;) Peace, buddy...
Redclock_the_Untimely 05-22-07, 03:41 AM	The best way to overcome the orb spells is by staying out of range. Now even though nobody said battles have to take place at point blank range they always seem to. Just have the battle start at long range with a fireball from on high and showers of arrows when they get within three range increments and see if next time the PCs lose some of the short range orb spells and take something with better range but have SR. :P Note: This doesn't work if your players are capable of group tactics and realize Dimension Door will close the distance for a group of 4 at level 9, unless the attackers are all flying and then you may end with full retreat or risk TPK.
Sphere 05-22-07, 03:48 AM	Size modifiers are a good way to get your touch AC up while allowing you to hit things at range with more ease. Also mundane cover and concealment will make it quite a bit harder for those orbs to land. And if that isn't enough, swarm them with lots of targets. That will make them wish they had good old fireball on hand instead of an orb of fire.
Varia 05-22-07, 07:17 AM	'Scuse my silly question, but where are the orb spells from?
OneBallJay 05-22-07, 01:20 PM	Spell Compendium
risner 05-22-07, 01:21 PM	'Scuse my silly question, but where are the orb spells from? Spells Compendium
psionichamster 05-22-07, 01:37 PM	a couple of tips: wilders get high touch ac...if they miss, thats a lost spell displacement, greater, blink, greater blink, etherealness, mirror image, cats grace, sheild of faith all work pretty well spell turning would mean your wiz/sorc/warmage gets to take his 10d6 force damage to the head if you REALLY want to get silly: Psychic Warrior/Knight with focused armor, shield ward, shield spec, shield block, combat expertise, compression, animal affinity (dex). he's the front line, and has blindsight/mindsight/etc to allow him to negate invis. behind him is your SR-baddy, preferably with plenty of healing/buff type spells floating around outside normal spot range is the ranged-specialist, possibly with favored enemy (PC race) and sneaking up to the happy orb-caster is a rogue with a sharp knife. -the hamster
ccerose 05-22-07, 01:42 PM	Take a look at the spell, Ray Deflection on page 166 of the Spell Compendium. A 4th level spell that protects the caster from ranged touch attacks, including ray spells and ray attacks. It initially confounded the player who loved having his wizard sling acid orbs. It forced him to rely on other spells and abilities. He was still very effective and enjoyed the enounter.
Belfur 05-22-07, 01:58 PM	Problem of Blur, Displacement and not to forget Mirror Image is always True Seeing (although that's 5th level, maybe if you afford a spell slot on this, you earned your kill). Another try: Bad guys can also have Orb Spells, just hit back. If the BBEG saw one of his major thralls be wasted by an orb, he can prepare for this. He could just keep a ring of counter spell ready with this specific spell. Rod of cancelation, Spell Immunity, Wall of Force all counters this. And in the end, if you do not like the spell: banish it from the game...Maybe make up a story, like these specific conjuration spells wearing thin the reality. So odd effects like wild magic and dead magic zones start to appear, whereever such spells are cast. So the PCs can keep these spells, but only for emergency and the more often they use them, the more dangerous it gets...and the more the gods and clerics of magic might be annoyed.
mlund 05-22-07, 02:47 PM	I highly recommend branching out beyond Glass Canons for challenges to throw at your players. There are tons of things in the D&D portfolio that Orbs simply aren't good against. - Marty Lund
Toloran 05-22-07, 03:48 PM	General suggestions: * I second the suggestion of Ray Deflection from Spell Compendium. It renders you totally immune to ranged touch attacks, isn't particularly high level, and there is no way of getting your orbs past it short of dispelling it. * A rogue with the alternate class feature from Complete Mage can redirect rays back at the caster when they miss. Combine that with a good touch AC and suddenly their one-shot wonder is one-shotting them :) * You can't target what you can't see. Blindness, Darkness (and similar spells), etc protect you from ranged touch attacks.
Halflingtoes 05-22-07, 05:22 PM	General suggestions: * I second the suggestion of Ray Deflection from Spell Compendium. It renders you totally immune to ranged touch attacks, isn't particularly high level, and there is no way of getting your orbs past it short of dispelling it. * A rogue with the alternate class feature from Complete Mage can redirect rays back at the caster when they miss. Combine that with a good touch AC and suddenly their one-shot wonder is one-shotting them :) * You can't target what you can't see. Blindness, Darkness (and similar spells), etc protect you from ranged touch attacks. Ray deflection, excellent. Everything else is very situational, but I can't wait to spring this one on them
Muspelheim 05-22-07, 05:47 PM	One of the things that gives a good indication of the impact of orb spells is that Golems are now a joke to mages. With the Energy Gestalt Tactical feat from CM and Orb spells, a mage can blast through a Golem in just a few rounds. Another good indication is the disdain players cast on the evocation school now, if they specialize, they specilize in conjuration. Really, golems and most other mindless stuff were already a joke to mages pre-orb spells. The only use for opponents like that is basically as distractions, not as a main threat. Evocation is pretty sub-par already in a core-only environment - with the only really good stuff I can think of off-hand being non-damage things like Wall of Force, Contingency and Forcecage; chances are that it has become better rather than worse with additional material, though I couldn't say for sure. What is suboptimal about a 15d6 (max) spell (that can crit) that has no save and is not subject to SR? Not a whole lot, really. The thing is, you have to compare it to what else a mage could have done with his action. Usually, that action could have had a whole lot more impact than doing 50ish dmg at *15th* level. Seriously, if you are throwing around 4th level spells (*and* those being 4th level spells that aren't even that good) when you should have access to 8th level stuff as a main tactic, you are probably not exactly playing to your strenghts. When you get access to the orb-line they do a whooping 7d6 dmg. That's an average of ~24 dmg. Even if you have +3 caster level (which I wouldn't say is exactly easily attainable at level 7; could be wrong on this though) it is still only 34ish dam. Your average melee type should blow that away easily with a full attack or a focused charge/smite/similar attack.
Varia 05-22-07, 06:02 PM	Spells Compendium Are they original to SC, or are they just compiled there from some other original book? SC isnt allowed in the current campaign I play in, but the orb spells original source book might be, if its from a different book originally.
ccerose 05-22-07, 06:35 PM	Ray deflection, excellent. Everything else is very situational, but I can't wait to spring this one on them The look on the orb slinging players face will be priceless. Trust me.
tiercel 05-22-07, 08:31 PM	For PC-classed foes, particularly BBEG spellcasters (or at least BBEGs with spellcaster henchmen), adapting to the orb spells as written isn't so bad, though it is nonzero. Just don't rely on SR as a primary defense, and use energy resistances more. A bigger problem is creatures for whom SR was (under Core rules) a significant defense. They can't just reallocate the resources they would have used to cast spell resistance into energy immunity -- so suddenly they are over-CRd in a campaign world where there are 1001 more ways to ignore SR. (Heck, golems' "magic immunity" becomes laughable.) The no-SR nature of the orbs as printed gives me problems philosophically (they seem just like Evocations, e.g. scorching ray, and "nonmagical magic balls of energy" rubs me the wrong way) and in terms of game balance (what good is SR if you just choose a different spell in order to ignore it -- not to mention that blast of flame is pretty much strictly better than the admittedly weak but higher level cone of cold). I don't have a problem with the orbs as Evocations that are SR: Yes. They still do big gobs of damage with no save on a touch attack and come with a minor secondary debuff effect on a failed save. That's pretty reasonable without ignoring SR. I should note that generally I have a problem with wizards/casters being "too good" at direct damage, particularly reliable single-target direct damage. After all, that's what fighters/melee/archer types do -- if a mage can do damage just as well and just as reliably as those characters while *also* pumping out all kinds of other spells, it just makes noncasters obsolete just much faster. Similarly, I have a problem with anything that greatly weakens SR as a viable defense (with no counter available to creatures that rely on SR as as significant part of their toughness against high-level opponents). SR is one of the factors that can potentially keep noncaster PCs somewhat relevant in high-level combat -- if it is all too easy for wizards to blast "magic immune" creatures standing in antimagic auras to death with their magic more or less at will, then why even bother keeping around some guy with a sword at all?
Halflingtoes 05-22-07, 10:06 PM	Really, golems and most other mindless stuff were already a joke to mages pre-orb spells. The only use for opponents like that is basically as distractions, not as a main threat. Evocation is pretty sub-par already in a core-only environment - with the only really good stuff I can think of off-hand being non-damage things like Wall of Force, Contingency and Forcecage; chances are that it has become better rather than worse with additional material, though I couldn't say for sure. The thing is, you have to compare it to what else a mage could have done with his action. Usually, that action could have had a whole lot more impact than doing 50ish dmg at *15th* level. Seriously, if you are throwing around 4th level spells (*and* those being 4th level spells that aren't even that good) when you should have access to 8th level stuff as a main tactic, you are probably not exactly playing to your strenghts. When you get access to the orb-line they do a whooping 7d6 dmg. That's an average of ~24 dmg. Even if you have +3 caster level (which I wouldn't say is exactly easily attainable at level 7; could be wrong on this though) it is still only 34ish dam. Your average melee type should blow that away easily with a full attack or a focused charge/smite/similar attack. The melee type can blow it away if they hit everytime against AC 30-40 whatever, and have the proper weapon enchantments/materials to overcome DR, which is much more difficult than overcoming energy immunity with orbs (although with the Metalline enchantment, it just got much easier), but an empowered orb can do an impressive amount of damage and is usually striking at a touch AC 20 points or more below regular AC (based of standard high CR monsters from the MM) and is *consistent*, doesn't matter if it's flying, has a +42 grapple check, is more than x number of hit die, or whatever. And god help you if it crits. Orb spells (and the other conjuration attack spells) may not be the 'best' spells, but they offer a mage nearly garaunteed damage against almost any opponent.
solbergb 05-22-07, 10:40 PM	Oh...I thought you were talking about the DANGEROUS L4-5 spells that lack SR and saves You know, like Solid Fog, Evards tentacles, wall of force, wall of stone, telekenesis....or their little brothers, grease, glitterdust and web I'd be delighted if my players did nothing but orbs and arc lightning instead of using those spells to turn a big tough encounter into a series of really easy little encoutners..... Don't fight it. These spells are considerably weaker than other things the characters could be doing. Level 10 archer does 60-80 points of damage/round depending on if he has haste yet. Level 10 sorc with orb of force does 35 points of damage/round A level 12 archer does 100 damage/round routinely vs most opponents a level 12 sorc with empowered orb of force does half that damage. as for crits - the archer adds about 40 points of damage at L10 if he crits, 50 at L12, and has 3-4 times as many opportunities to crit, more if he's got improved crit or keen arrows or something. The sorc just doubles the rather pathetic existing damage one in 20 rounds. I know which one I'm more afraid of most of the time in the direct damage arena. It's the guy with the bow. What makes the arcanist dangerous is his abiltity to control the terrain or reliably do the last few points of damage to the enemy or, if he's lucky enough to have the right spell vs an opponent weakness, take one or more opponents out of the fight with a single action. Direct damage is for finishing off wounded enemies, sweeping away weak enemies or for hurting enemies that are for some reason highly resistant to physical attacks. Mages SHOULD have the ability to do small amounts of nearly guaranteed damage vs any opponent. As an occasional thing it is useful, and as magic missile has been around forever, it's kind of expected of mages. All magic missile has to overcome is spell resistance. It doesn't need to worry about miss-chances, blinking enemies, cover less than total cover etc. I'm not fond of the flavor of all those SR=no direct damage conjuration spells, but they don't really affect game balance because using them as a primary attack usually means your party either really sucks at physical combat or you're fighting something physical combat can't normally defeat. (none of the magic immune critters are in this category). Generally grease and/or glitterdust will defeat a golem encounter (the fighters will effortlessly dispatch blinded, mindless, prone creatures with crappy saves that can't spend ranks on balance or listen, have no feats and have low dexterity). Wasting high level spell slots on them is pointless, unless your party is somehow very inept at fighting physically. If your whole party can't melee their way out of a paper bag, yeh, you probably need a warmage or sorcerer with orb of force and you can expect fights to be very drawn out and the party to have to rest a lot as the arcanist burns slots like water doing what a bow or sword could do better.
danielinthewolvesden 05-22-07, 10:49 PM	Are they original to SC, or are they just compiled there from some other original book? SC isnt allowed in the current campaign I play in, but the orb spells original source book might be, if its from a different book originally. Pretty sure CArcane originally.
Muspelheim 05-23-07, 04:06 AM	A bigger problem is creatures for whom SR was (under Core rules) a significant defense. They can't just reallocate the resources they would have used to cast spell resistance into energy immunity -- so suddenly they are over-CRd in a campaign world where there are 1001 more ways to ignore SR. (Heck, golems' "magic immunity" becomes laughable.) [...] Similarly, I have a problem with anything that greatly weakens SR as a viable defense (with no counter available to creatures that rely on SR as as significant part of their toughness against high-level opponents). SR is one of the factors that can potentially keep noncaster PCs somewhat relevant in high-level combat -- if it is all too easy for wizards to blast "magic immune" creatures standing in antimagic auras to death with their magic more or less at will, then why even bother keeping around some guy with a sword at all? Sure, if you use lots of stuff outside core, thus giving the PCs a power-up you can hardly expect monsters straight out of the MM to be competitive. But that's not really different than if you houserule certain stuff that makes the PCs stronger, give them better than suggested equipment, uses a higher point-buy etc. Also, even in a core-only environment, SR is quite insignificant if the caster cares about it (taking spell penetration-line, e.g.). If you run the numbers for the appropriate CRs out of MM, I think you will find that it will be very few times that it actually kicks in and does something. And for the rare stuff with really high SR there are usually lots of other (and better!) options than to try and be a damage slinger. As I said before, golems (along with most other mindless stuff) already *were* laughable. It's certainly not mediocre blasty stuff like the orb line that makes them so. Unless the PCs severely underestimate such an opponent or it has a very massive advantage due to other circumstances it is not going to be much of a challenge. The melee type can blow it away if they hit everytime against AC 30-40 whatever, and have the proper weapon enchantments/materials to overcome DR, which is much more difficult than overcoming energy immunity with orbs (although with the Metalline enchantment, it just got much easier), but an empowered orb can do an impressive amount of damage and is usually striking at a touch AC 20 points or more below regular AC (based of standard high CR monsters from the MM) and is *consistent*, doesn't matter if it's flying, has a +42 grapple check, is more than x number of hit die, or whatever. And god help you if it crits. Orb spells (and the other conjuration attack spells) may not be the 'best' spells, but they offer a mage nearly garaunteed damage against almost any opponent. Well you are certainly not running stuff straight out the book for an average AC of 30-40 at level 7. And if we are talking at level 15, then really 50ish (or 75ish if empowered) damage spells should be the least of your worries as far as a wizards capabilities goes, *and* the meleers shouldn't have much of a problem hitting those ACs. Also, unless you use Force Orbs (which limit you to 10d6) or Sonic Orbs (which gives you d4s instead of d6s) chances are that the critter might as well have some sort of energy resistance as well.
Ace the Dead 05-23-07, 04:28 AM	Blur. Minor Displacement, Major displacement. There are seveal 2nd level spells that give 20% Concealment (Blur, Veil of Shadows) and several magic items, including a rather cool one that is rather cheap and give blur 3x a day as a swift action- some sort of draconic circlet. Anyway, there is not a BBEG alive who can not have a potion of blur to quaff. Anyway, the foes can easily have 20% concealment. Thus, Orbs miss 20% of the time. At higher levels, make it 50%. Add to that a higher touch AC- more Dex, more rings, luck bonuses, ect. Make those mages work for that hit (they do have a cruddy BAB after all), so they at least need to roll a 12. So that is a miss 60% of the time. Potion of Divine sheild,or whatever. AND THEY STACK. A potion of Resist energy Sonic is also dirt cheap. Bye-bye 1st 10 points of orb. Fewer BBEG more mooks, more encounters. There are very few problems with spells or psionic that can not be solved by just having an extra encounter per day and watching them blow all their spells/PP on some low level mooks. Heck for extra fun, have the monsters in that extra encounter be such low level that only the lowest level guy in the party even gets eps from them- the mages will STILL blast away.:D You'd think those miss chance/high touch ACs would help, but with True Strike... Also, I've seen (and used) orb of force used more than any other orb simply because it ignores energy resistence. Overall, I like the orbs, but do feel they are problematic as written.
Silverblade The Enchanter 05-23-07, 07:35 AM	1) touch spells IGNORE force armour as well, far as I know? So that shouldn't be an issue. Only dex, cover, dodge, size, concealment (or blink or the like) and *firing into a melee* affect it? -WHy aren't your BBEG's henchmen covering him with a shield wall? 2) Er, so, mages can bypas SR...and? That's smart.. 3) Is no one using Globe of Invulnerability, along with lvl 5+ buffs on themselves? 4) Range of True Seeing is 120'. bar indoors...i'd want the PCs chopped up by NPCs archers at range, blockers near BBEG, and charging melee ;) 5) Heart of Stone is nasty, it's necromancy....if your PCs are being played with care for RP and are of Good alignment, then they'd probably refuse to use that spell. Rip yer own heart out, necromancy? hello?! lol ;) that is NOT a "normal" spell. :) 3)
aotrscommander 05-23-07, 08:03 AM	[Note: this is intended as an explanatory wotsit, not an agressive rebuttal to any persons, but it might come across a bit rantish, for which I apologise in advance! Don't take it personal-like, anyone!] I don't have a problem with the Orb spells. At all. Flavour-wise, they are just magical rather than technologically energy guns. Think of Orb of Fire as 'Phaser at setting 12-16' and have done with it (you get the idea). Mechanically, the Orb spells aren't too spectacular. On most targets (those without SR) it's 15D6 to one target (52.5 damage), which a 15th level Fighter should be easily able to exceed. (Assuming it's not a creature specifically designed for melee/ranged combat to not work on.) Plus, by that level, counting only damage spells, on anything other than a single target, it's a high probability that any one of the targeted AoE spells available at level 15 - that do the same damage, with massively more range in many cases - will do the same damage to multiple targets and way more overall. (Horrid Wilting, for example, affects any targets the caster likes up to 60' apart and deals untyped damage. Yes, they get SR. Yes, they get a save for half. But against 2-4 targets, odds are you'll do more damage; maybe not to one target, but more overall.) Even if they have average SR for that level (equating to a 50% chance of bypassing - more like 75% chance for anyone who's picked up Greater Spell Penetration) and even if say, half of them make their saves, the caster will still have done far more damage overall. There are precisely three occasions where the Orb spells are particularly advantageous because of their SR penetration. 1) Fighting known targets of a certain subtype to captialise on vulnerabilities. Still, there are probably better spells for dealing with them, unless you are dealing with a single target. Dragons would be especially of note in this case. 2) Fighting any single opponet. 3) Fighting golems or anti-magic creatures. Golems are the only creatures to my knowledge that are magic immune, not magically resistant, and anti-magic fields are also not an especially common effect, and when used are specifically for 'shaft the casters'. In cases 1 and 2, I always bear the following in mind. Never, ever, ever send a single target against a party if you want a proper fight, specially at level 15. That goes double if you have an average party size of 6 or more. By level 15, on a single target, the fact the mage can deal 15D6 damage to a single target easily is superfluous. Unless said target is magic immune (so, golem then) or has a ridiculous SR then save or dies will likely kill it, if the combined archery/sneak attacks/full attacks of the party don't, with the odds of SoD working rising with each round. A warlock by then (not noted for it's high damage potential) is doing 7D6 per round consistently to everything that's not got a high SR and Acid resistance. While flying. One level and they can do it while effectively permenently invisible! A dragon might just get away with it, using favourable terrain and flight, but I don't count on it. This does not even account for ToB, which is particularly good at single-target decimation (Avalanche of Blades, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Finishing Move, Ancient Mountain Hammer and Swarming Assult all spring to mind as being devastating in this situation.) In case 3, I am of the opinion that character balance should be along the lines of making everybody equally as good (ToB for example), not making certain character types totally ineffective for a combat. A mage unable to use their spells is reduced to a crappy crossbow attack, which is not likely to hit. Even less likely to penetrate DR. I can't foresee a situation whereby having the capability to penetrate spell resistance is a bad thing, other than from a 'shaft the caster and make the caster's player sit on his arse for a combat and not be able to do anything' perspective. So, what is the solution? More bad guys. Seriously. The Orbs are particularly good at concentration of fire. That, more than their ability to ignore SR, is their advantage. So, spread the PCs fire nice and thin with a series of priority targets, forcing the mage to make a decision about which one to go for. Elemental resistances will help, as unless your Wizard has loaded all Orb spells or your Sorcerer doesn't know anything else, they aren't likely to have all of them (Orb of Force, of course, does less damage). And in that case, the amount of better stuff they've given up is plenty of compenstation! Remember too, that at level 15, 60' still still not very far, so a large combat outdoors (or in one of those massive throne rooms) leaves plenty of room for the enemies casters so sit back and rain Magic Missiles or Fireballs or Horrid Wiltings or Entangles (etc) on the casters. Compared to the horrors of SoD spells like Baleful Polymorph, to name just one example, Orbs are nothing!
Muspelheim 05-23-07, 08:34 AM	You'd think those miss chance/high touch ACs would help, but with True Strike... If he is doing that, he is either casting quickened true strikes, thus consuming fifth level slots or only casting an orb every other turn. Either option tend to make it a quite ineffecient tactic. When a wizard can actually afford to cast quickened true strikes (that is, when he has enough 5th or higher level spell slots to spend some of them on a 1st level spell), then he should have much more worrying options available to him. Sure, being able to deal a bit of single-target dmg consistently might be situationally useful, but really, most times he would very likely be better off using his spell slots and/or actions in another way.
ravenspawn 05-23-07, 12:24 PM	Pretty sure CArcane originally. Actually the energy orb spells were in the "Tome & Blood" book. Orb of Force may also have been in that book, but i'm not certain.
Derren S. 05-23-07, 12:58 PM	What people forget is that at level 15 the caster who heavily uses the Orb spells will not use them unmodified anymore. You are not dealing with plain 15d6 Orbs, but with repeated, twinned (or empowered) orbs.
solbergb 05-23-07, 01:02 PM	You'd think those miss chance/high touch ACs would help, but with True Strike... Also, I've seen (and used) orb of force used more than any other orb simply because it ignores energy resistence. Overall, I like the orbs, but do feel they are problematic as written. So you are now doing 35 damage every other round? Or blowing a L5 and a L4 spell to do 35 damage? Sure go ahead. I sure wish the enemy arcanists my characters face would do such stupid things with their actions...
solbergb 05-23-07, 01:08 PM	What people forget is that at level 15 the caster who heavily uses the Orb spells will not use them unmodified anymore. You are not dealing with plain 15d6 Orbs, but with repeated, twinned (or empowered) orbs. and your point? 15d6 twinned is about 105 damage. Which the archer has been doing for several levels now, and can do all day, rather than using a top tier (level 8) spell slot. The only people likely to clutter their top tier slots with orb spells are the spont casters, especially warmages. Warmages don't have much better to do, but sorcerers usually have better choices for their best slots. And both have to wait till 16 to get those slots. Your wizard (if a conjuration specialist) doing it can dish out that damage 3 times a day if he's not using those slots for something else. It just isn't that big a deal.
thaylok 05-23-07, 01:14 PM	...- Unexpected preparedness: Foes can be ready against some things even when the party expects them not. Fire is the most common form of damage, so you can give a worried someone itens of resistance and even imunity to it. The only problem with this (And I only quote this one because I have seen this mentioned several times, not picking on SaberWolf), is that these items end up in the players hands. Now the players have resistance or immunity themselves, and don't hesitate to blast area effect spells on their allies. With enough of these items, the whole party becomes resistant/immune to 2 or more types of the damage of the orb spells may deal. Now if the items used by the NPC's were altered.. as in.. one use items.. a ring similar to a ring of wishes, which only bestowed the desired effect 1, 2 or 3 times (max charge, non rechargeable) then it is used up.. Think of a wand wrapped around a finger (it's smaller so can't contain the same level of magical charge). Then the players only get an items with limited uses, which is much better than a carte blanch. -This is for those who asked or referenced a comment about how SR should apply-. And the reason it bypasses SR is that since it is created, then used to attack, it is not spell damage hitting the target. Just pure elemental energy. Which, yes, may be provided some resistance. I do not agree that these can be summoned outside of an area of antimagic, and then sent in. the magic containing the elemental energies would be suppressed, and the spell would turn to a plain fireball, and dissipate (IMHO), if not just cause a 5X5 fireball effect. EDIT: Yes there are potions that can do similar.. but this idea makes use of the intelligence of mages in the world, and can mess w/the player who uses detect magic to try to determine what buffs the NPC may have.... or lay claim to magic items.
Halflingtoes 05-23-07, 05:19 PM	setting aside for a moment the concept of non-magical force, I think one of the problems people have with the orb spells (I know I do) is that the 'non-magical' fire does just as much damage as 'magical fire'. Not to mention these spells come with a convient spell delivery system. If the orbs did less damage, or had to be used as an actual thrown weapon it would seem a little more consistent. I mean why bother to get your sword enchanted with the flame property when you could just coat it with pitch and set it on fire for the same damage and bypass SR? Anyway, I'm glad I read this thread, adding ray deflection to the enemy aresnal may get the party wizard thinking in directions other than how to maximize orb use ;)
tiercel 05-23-07, 09:47 PM	Sure, if you use lots of stuff outside core, thus giving the PCs a power-up you can hardly expect monsters straight out of the MM to be competitive. But that's not really different than if you houserule certain stuff that makes the PCs stronger, give them better than suggested equipment, uses a higher point-buy etc. The point is, for most other PC power ups a DM can reasonably compensate for those -- monsters can be given better feat selection, higher stats, be advanced.... but it's hard to adjust a monster for its SR becoming worthless. As for SR being laughable already -- I think that's debatable. Even if you have a moderate focus on breaking SR, sure, you'll break SR more often than you fail but there is a nonzero "miss chance." Let's assume that a 16th level caster takes both Spell Penetration and Greater SP, and has an orange ioun stone -- for SR checks he's CL 21. Against a "moderate challenge" CR 16 horned devil, SR 28, he still has a 30% "miss chance" for all his (SR: Yes) spells. Yes, there are ways to crank up your effective caster level even more, but a caster who makes a *large* investment in breaking SR should be at least reasonably effective, much like a cleric who worships Pelor, takes the Sun domain, and enters the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC should be *reasonably* effective against undead most of the time. Taking the orb spells et al. is a quite small investment though that allows no SR "miss chance" at all -- and on very dubious philosophical grounds. Yes, you can also argue that orbs aren't such a big deal because they are single target... but let's face it, they are specifically designed for Big Bads. You're being silly in general if you're using a reasonable single-target spell to pick off one out of six ogre barbarians -- instead, you save it and use it as part of a "concentrate all fire on the Super Star Destroyer" tactic during a BBEG fight. You know the BBEG is going to be engineered, in general, to be resistant to "save or die" spells (the DM doesn't want the BBEG going down in one shot too easily) so you throw a fair wad of damage that offers no save, no SR, and probably no energy resistance (if nothing else, you are throwing "nonmagical sonic" or "nonmagical force") *plus* might debilitate the BBEG for a round on a failed save, stacking with the efforts of your fighter types, missilers, anyone who can contribute direct damage to knock the BBEG down very very fast. Sound strategy? Sure... but if you want to have a classic outsider BBEG, you might as well lower his CR by at least 1 since his SR is much more effective in Core than in the new happy "we don't need no steenking caster level checks" supplement world. (It should be noted that my beef with orb spells extends fairly generally to most all-in-one-shot direct-damage no-SR "Conjuration" spells of dubious provenance, as well as effects that trivialize SR as a defense like that swift-action Divination spell that effectively says "your opponent loses SR".)
tyrecian 05-23-07, 10:19 PM	I have had some trouble as a DM making worthwhile encounters against this lind of spells, since they do alot of damage and are easily used for metamagic lines that increase the damage (i.e. empowerred orbs, sudden maximized). There are ways around them, sure, but it can be tough when the PCs rely heavily on them and make those ways around them able to be negated. My PC wizzy just takes spells that negate his orby goodness. If an opponent has ray deflection, he hits em with a dispel, if cover he moves, etc. Anymore the prevelence of these spells has changed the way in which my encounters are run. Mostly now, especially with dragons, the 3rd level spell taken is almost always both dispel magic and energy resistance. I will waste a few rounds buffing against multiple elements, and if there is knowledge of the PCs nearby they will already be up. I will even retreat to buff these spells to do this. Dispel magic has no SR, so it can be a really tough encounter if the cleric dispels so the wizzy can blast with the orbs, but that doesnt happen very often because i dont let the players know so much. However, i have learned that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If i want to really screw with the players i throw in a few low level wizzies as minions that have the orbs. Touch attacks are usually easy to hit and that means that the wizzies are getting berated at the same time they are doing the beating... however they are not using aoe's and my PCs have learned that while orbs are gold, they are also circumstantial. I agree though, as both a player of a wizard and a DM, these spells (and many of the conjuration line) make the evoker a tough choice.
Zoycitenega 05-24-07, 01:45 AM	potions of spells of energy resistence or protection from energy, force armour like mage armour or shield, Invisibility, incorporeality, tons of hit points, minions that disrupt spell casting, cover, and buffs like cats grace and bears endurance to let them dodge the damage or take it on the chin. Mage armor and Shield are still negated by touch attacks, just not incorporeal creatures. I would suggest putting them against a group with a warlock who's main porpose is to dispel their spell(as the counterspell version). Also, let them have their fun. Orb spells are 8th level. The average fighter wielding a longsword with two flaming properties on it deals 1d8+2d6+5(3 str mod, 2 weapon spec.) twice. Orb spells deal 8d6 with a possible effect. Fighter deals an average of 33 damage per round, presuming he hits twice. The spellcaster deals 28, and will run out of spells really quickly.
Halflingtoes 05-25-07, 07:14 PM	Also, let them have their fun. Orb spells are 8th level. The average fighter wielding a longsword with two flaming properties on it deals 1d8+2d6+5(3 str mod, 2 weapon spec.) twice. Orb spells deal 8d6 with a possible effect. Fighter deals an average of 33 damage per round, presuming he hits twice. The spellcaster deals 28, and will run out of spells really quickly. Except that the fighter has spent a great deal of money on a weapon that is relatively unflexable. even a fire resistance 10 would all but nullify the flaming properties of the sword, add on a DR 5/cold iron and the fighter is doing virtually no damage. Not to mention being a magical item it is subject to theft, disjunction, sundering, etc. Flexibility with orbs is easy to achieve, especially if you have energy substitution. And again, orbs are for BBEGs, reserve feats/fireballs are for minions.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-25-07, 07:53 PM	Well, bypassing SR is cool. But blasting spells have never really been the "top dog" in terms of dealing with opponents. When arcane magic offers spells that go to "Save or Die" or "Save or Be Screwed", kinda hurting someone just doesn't really cut it anymore. This isn't to say that spells like this don't serve a point--they do. But who the heck would "Orb" a golem when you can use a 1st level spell--Grease--to trip it instead? Very clearly, Orb spells can't break the campaign. A real mage doesn't bother with direct damage until it gets to the point where it will reduce the enemies power. (Dealing HP damage doesn't matter until they are disabled or dead). Disintegrate and Fireball might be on that level, but the orbs clearly are not. So, when the enemy gets "Orbed", respond with rainbow pattern against half the party, or dominate the party fighter, or as someone else mentioned, Evard's Black Tentacles.
Halflingtoes 05-26-07, 06:55 PM	At this point I guess we are beating a dead horse, we're just saying the same things over and over. the Orb's power lay in a couple things: 1. flexibility- There is an Orb spell for every energy type 2. Bypass SR 3. No saving throw (for damage) 4. ranged touch attack (can crit) 5. Until someone pointed out Ray Deflection, there was virtually no counter to these spells outside of very elaborate set ups. Now that Ray deflection has been pointed out as a viable, simple defense, they are no longer such a headache. Save or die or Save or be screwed spells are niffty, as long as the target fails the save. If they make it, you're just looking at wasted spell slots. The same thing with Evard's Black tentacles, rainbow pattern, or dominate (immuniyt to mind affecting spells is one of the most common), if they make their save, or have a means of easily countering it (etherealness, dim door, freedom of movement, fly, etc). Orb spell's power lay in their ability to directly diminish hit points reliably, and no matter what immunities a creature may have, or how high it's saving throws are, all of them are defeated once they hit -1 or lower. I'm satisfied with the conclusion though, using Ray Deflection even in one game has caused the wizards in my party to re-evaluate their thinking. While I doubt the orbs will be gone completely, I am sure they will be greatly diminished.
dman11235 06-05-07, 11:39 PM	Originally complete arcane, also spell compendium.