Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tate 02-09-04, 11:37 PM	All of my PC's have a few thousand gold laying around (2-5 thousand) and would obviosuly like to spend it. They are level 5 and its unreasonable to say that all they can buy is tanglefoot bags and horses. But at the same time if every party member picks up a cloak of resistance and ring of protection, it detracts from the game a lot. The way I dealt with this situation was by saying that they could only buy potions (lots of healing because no party cleric), scrolls of nearly any spell (none bought by the party sorcerer?!) , and one wand of cure light (for 1,000gp and not 750). I also let the party trade in a +1 weapon for one that could be used by someone in the party better. So basically I ended up with everyone having MW items if they didnt already, a more usefull +1 weapon, and about 20 potions and one wand of CLW. The party wasnt upset, but I knew they wanted those rings of protection. Just wondering how you DMs out there allow PCs to spend their money. At higher levels (my party is only level 5 now) when 2,000 gold is an average haul, the party has no use for 200 flasks of acid or 4 alchemists labs. Also, what about increasing magic item bonuses? Or getting a wizard to craft custom magic items for say a familiar or animal companion (collar of protection anyone)? Input would be great, thanks.
Save_vs_DM 02-09-04, 11:50 PM	How you deal with things is a bit dependant. But here is what I do most of time. First the players have to find a vendor with magic items. THe bard usually handles this. Once they find the guy, his stock is always changing. I then use the random treasure tables in the DMG to roll up his stock. I usually roll 1d10 times per every 5 levels of the party. This usually creates a nice, varied stock, and those random tables make it easy. It keeps most items rare enough, but also lets my party spend their treasure. Keep in midn that the monsters in the MM are balanced assuming the party has access to most standard magical items at appropriate levels. At level five, I'd expect the fighter to have +1 armor, mabye a +1 weapon. The wizard probably has Bracers of Armor +1 or +2, and a Ring of Protection +1 or +2. One of the members might have a single +2 stat enhancing item. Your cleric probably has +1 armor. And so on. That works for me. But then again, in most of the games we play we almost always have a wizard or cleric with a few item creation feats. Anyway, hopes this works, Cheers, Save-vs-DM
Aucturos 02-09-04, 11:51 PM	Ring of Protection problems? How many rings of that nature does your local magic shop have in stock? One way to deal with the "everyone and their grandma" symptom might be to just limit the number of rings period. When they ask their local merchant for 5 Rings of Protection, have him respond with "I'm sorry, but I only have two. For a bit higher price, I might be able to conjure another one up in a few weeks (aka, hiring a high enough wizard to create one)." They buy the two, fantastic! Two PC"s with rings shouldn't be that bad... And a few weeks is quite a while, which will give them time to level up. Plus, I would say charge at least double, if not triple the price of the normal item for labor and materials. As for other magic items? The common rule around here seems to be that a general "magic shop" shouldn't have more than a +2 or +1 w/abilities weapon on them, and shoul only have minor wondrous items... Otherwise everyone else would have them already. If they want to create more powerful items themselves that's fine, though... They're XP. For "upgrading" item bonuses, the ORIGINAL creator must cast the necessary spells. That seems like a lot of trouble to hunt down "Baelroth the Brain Dead" to upgrade your +1 Flaming Sword into a +2 Flaming sword... For custom magic items, I usually go anywhere from 1.5-3x the normal price depending on materials and what they want out of it. Collar of protection? An unusual item that must be fitted and made out of fine materials if you want it to last through battle... But does not take as much work as other custom items (a vest of protection for your familiar, as an example, which would take much more time for measurements and precision work, or a carrying cage with Shadow Door for quick escapes from danger)... So maybe 1.5x the cost for your Collar of Protection. The above paragraph is just my campaign, though, and I'm sure someone out there has more refined and detailed rules if you want. Above all else, remember one of the golden rules of being a DM... If you don't want them to have it, then they don't have to get it. If you think it will unbalance the game for a few levels, sit down, talk to them... "Hey, listen guys... I know all of you want Amulets of Uber Munchkinness, but I think it will really disrupt the game balance and I would have to rework a lot of the encounters. One person with it is okay, but I'm afraid I'm only going to allow one. Thanks for listening, and on with the show!"
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-10-04, 12:05 AM	I'm not seeing how everyone having a ring +1 at level 5 is a big deal.
Xyplex 02-10-04, 12:07 AM	An interesting side rule that my group uses, is that if a person wants to have a magic item built for them, but they're not a caster, they can comission a caster to do the work ... she'll charge the price in the book (or higher if there is sufficient demand for her services), but the catch is that the player has to spend the creation time with the caster ... she funnels the PCs energy/life-force/karma/XP into the item. This takes some of the burdon of magic item creation off of PC spellcasters, and lets everyone have downtime for magic item creation ... not "Hey Wizard, snap snap, when's that Sword gonna be done?" And I've always felt that the DM should tailor the magic items that a party recieves ... I use the random tables to determine how common something is, but then decide what I'm going to include ... often it's 1/3 items specifically usefull to the party, 1/3 generically usefull, 1/3 tradeable/useless items for the party (but there is something to be said that no magic items are useless).
Lord_Apollyon 02-10-04, 12:22 AM	You should allow magic items. The local vendors in a small town aren't going to have much, and what they do have isn't the greatest. Custom jobs will be expensive, and take time, but it's not unbalancing. If it's a custom job, then they should pay extra. An absolute denial of magic items just makes your party hate you, unless it's even on both sides, and you don't fight any monsters from the MM. The MM tables are calculated based on your party being made up of standard NPCish guys with magic items. Most small magic shops only have a few smaller items, such as common +1 weapons and armor that can be easily sold. As well, they wouldn't stack more than one of anything, for the most part. Larger magic shops would stock more powerful stuff. Anything above +2 would need to be custom-made, which takes a while and costs lots of money. They wouldn't be in every town, but a lot of cities would have one, if not more. Also, about the "if magic items are so common, everyone would have one", 1000+ gold is more than most people earn in their lifetime as farmers, laborers, maids, cooks, etc. In one campaign I'm in, I have a full magic shop (but a lot has to be custom-made), at level 6, I've bought 3 magic items: +1 weapon, +1 armor, and a Heward's Handy Haversack. Ring of protection and cloak of resistances aren't higher up on my list of stuff to get. Magic items aren't unbalancing at all to a campaign. Why are you so concerned about Cloak of Resistance and Ring of Protection? I'd much rather have other stuff taking up slots in my inv for almost any class. Cloak of Resistance isn't really the hotness, unless you are a retarded min/maxer who doesn't have saves at all. Increasing magic item bonuses: Cost after - Cost before. For example, making +2 armor out of +1 armor = 3k gold (4k for +2 - 1k for +1 = 3k). I wouldn't require that the original wizard who made it would be the only one who could upgrade it. That's just being a shmuck. I'm sure that most wizards who learn to make magic armor know some of the more standard enhancement techniques, such as making a +2 out of a +1, so it shouldn't be a problem. Note: This shouldn't apply to fairly unique enhancements. I'm not sure how you want to define it, but the standard +1 to current enhancement shouldn't be a problem. Crafting custom items should be more expensive, depending on what you want. Most custom jobs should cost as is, such as making a +2 out of a +1, because the cost of making it was already accounted for. A collar of protection is in Tome & Blood, IIRC. Something like that, where there is a comparable human equivalent, should cost a bit more, but not a lot. However, some of the rarer magical items that aren't used a lot would definitely need to cost a lot more because of their rarity. Most adventurers would ask for Rings of Protection, +1 armor, +1 weapons, +1 Bracers of Armor, etc. So the equivalent for familiars would be a bit more expensive, but not much. Not many adventurers would ask for something rarer, like Pipes of Haunting. Therefore, the equivalent would be much more expensive.
spasheridan 02-10-04, 12:34 AM	Well, you have a choice. Assuming your in a normal or high magic world then PC's should get access to magic items as they level. There are 2 main routes to getting it: 1) Shops: Allow the PC's to purchase items. Put in restrcitions on whats in stock, allow commisions, have tiers of shops (you only know of a +2 shop, no +3 items here...). Any way you slice it. As the arbiter of the difficulty in the game you get to decide how much magic you want the PC's to have, so choose your stock careully. 2) Find it: This is a mean way, but not so bad. PC's can find magic items as loot. There are no shops. Maybe you can fence an item or two, but since there is no shops to buy the items in it's kind of silly to do such a thing. The onus here will be on you to make sure you drop items into the game that are usefull to the party members... if your drops are all greatswords and all of the tanks like shields this is a bit of a let down. And you have to drop items that are usefull to everyone... everyone needs a sword, everyone wants some AC buffs, everyone wants blah.. the problem is that if you drop a ring of prot and a wand of fireballs, the mage might say "Hey I need the AC more than this stinkin wand. I'm not taking the wand!" so like I said, choose carefully Of course the final solution is the crafting market. Once the PC's take the crafting skills it's all over... they can make anything you allow in the game, so think it over and decide how you want to slice it.
NorthSaber 02-10-04, 12:44 AM	There was a thread about how common magic shops are in various campaigns, how common they should be, and what would the repercussions be. See the thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167577).
tate 02-10-04, 12:47 AM	Thanks to everyone for the quick responses!! But I do think that some people got the wrong idea from this post. I am not saying that my PCs have no magic, just that I was sketchy about letting them buy more. They all have from 12-24 thousand gp worth of stuff, way over the 9 thousand limit suggested in the DMG. I am not stingy with magic, but that doesnt mean that every NPC has a ring of protection. I like to give out more odd magic, like the glove of storing and periapet of wound closure instead of the "boring" treasure, that every party wants, but is not exciting at all except from a min/max perspective of having a +1 everything. Not saying that having +1 everything is bad, but I just dont throw those at the party first, it takes time for everyone to have a +1 wpn and armor, but untill they get that they will have other cool items too. Any more responses are welcome, some of the previous ideas were great, I love the rolling on tables thing (how come i didnt think of that??). Thanks to all. tate
halzmar of geoff 02-10-04, 01:20 AM	I don't see any problems with allowing PCs to buy magical items. Given certain feats like weapon focus it seems rude to never allow the Barbarian with weapon focus greataxe to get better than a masterwork greataxe simply because none of my adventures contain a magical greataxe and none of his companions take craft arms and armors. It makes sense that spellcasters would make certain items to fund their lifestyles as it is one of their marketable skills, just as it make sense that magical items found by adventurers would be sold off, so there should be a supply - perhaps not unlimited supply but a supply of items for sale to PCs. However I do limit the sale of magic items according to the rules. Check pg137 of the 3.5 DMG. Table 5-2 shows the price limits of what can be purchase in a town. So to purchase a ROP+1 you would need a large town with a population of 2001+ and the limit the players can spend on one type of item: rings or any other given item, would be 1/10 population times 1/2 GP limit or somewhere between 6k to 15k in a large town depending on population. So given the size of the town the PCs can find 3 to 7 +1ROP in a given large town for sale. Secondly the PCs can get 1/2 market value for their items. NPCs need to make a profit too. Third custom stuff is custom. If the characters want winged boots of speed they have to make them, find them, or have them made.
Dragonspirit 02-10-04, 01:54 AM	I allow my players to purchase any equipment that could normally be generated on the MINOR treasure lists in the DMs guide only. It allows them to have decent things to spend their money on, but it keeps the REAL treasure attainable only through adventure or item creation (which diversifies feat selection so should always be encouraged IMO). I put this rule into effect about a month ago and it has worked out very well.
Naeron 02-10-04, 05:26 AM	As I posted in that other thread I limit item purchases based on an economic model that low level NPC crafters exist and will make items (but the vast majority never get above 7th because they refuse to place themselves in mortal danger preferring minor CR1-2 risks). Higher level casters are much rarer and don't need to generate income from crafting as they will have other means. So generally commissionable items, i.e. those you pay money for, are limited to what you can make with a 7th level caster and if you find the guy he will make the item. More powerful items tend to be available (if at all) from allies or as a result of favours and tasks performed. This maintains the mystique of items because the range of "bought" items is most potions, scrolls up to 4th, +1 and 2 armour and weapons and a selection of the minor wondrous items. The rest only come on "sale" if there is an ulterior reason that the high priest of a temple is willing to set aside his time to do some crafting, for example.
Gothic_Demon 02-10-04, 05:46 AM	I give all my permanent magic items some kind of back story that ties into my campaign world. Because of that, if you want a magical sword/shield/armour etc. you pay the cash and have a caster make it for you. The only kinds of things that a player can buy are consumable items: Wands, potions, and scrolls. Rods and staves are out, as are most wonderous items and all arms and armour. The caster always charges a minimum of the price listed in the DMG, and more if they think they can get away with it. Some casters, for larger or more important item creation, require some kind of trade-off that money can't buy. If you're looking at ways to drain off extra cash, try a more social adventure. Invite them to a might noble's ball. If they don't spend a fortune on special, shiny, in-fashion clothing, then have the entire court laugh at them, point and stare, etc. Give them an opportunity to build a stronghold and settle down somewhere. Give them reasons to pay towards the upkeep of something important (the local temple/orphanage/guard towers/King's Slush Fund).
Will Brandiman 02-10-04, 06:25 AM	You might like to look at the Thayan Enclaves in Forgotten Realms. I think they are described in some detail in either FRCS and/or Lords of Darkness. As an example of a "magic shop" they are quite believable without being overpowering. And if you don't play in FR there's no reason why you can't transplant the idea into your own campaign setting. For more powerful items I would stick strictly to the guidelines set out in the DMG for gold piece limit and cash availability for settlements. This means that for most items above the "minor" level the PC's will need to travel to a large town, city or even a metropolis (which I believe has a gp limit of 100,000). Anything more than that will require a planar metropolis, such as Union or Sigil, or they will need to approach an individual to commission the creation of such a powerful item. I don't necessarily think that you should charge more for such an item though, don't forget that the item creator only pays half of the market price so he's already making a decent profit. Of course if you do want to charge more it's a good way of creaming off some of the excess cash that accumulates during adventures. As a player I am often frustrated by my DM's random method of determining what's available to buy. Basically he just picks a figure out of thin air and says that is the % chance of an item being available. This generally means that I end up not being able to spend any significant portion of my wealth on items that are of any real use to me. I'm currently compiling my "wish list" of items for my 19th level character (played all the way up since 1st level). I'm supposed to have 580,000gp of equipment and cash. I actually have just under 400,000gp and want to spend a net amount of about 250,000 on new items (after selling off some old stuff that I want to replace). I've come up with a nice little package of stuff that I want, all designed to enhance what I'm good at, compensate for what I'm poor at or give me some options in certain situations. No single item costs more than 88,000 gp (which only barely falls into the 'major item' bracket) and we've travelled to Waterdeep specifically to go shopping but I'm fairly sure that the DM will do something random that screws it up for me. :mad:
BlackWand 02-10-04, 06:28 AM	Ppl handle magic items differently. My players are level 34, they have no thing above +4 yet. But before the "all to powerful" guy stole all their stuff, they had all the items that a DM like me just hates. =)
the_heart 02-10-04, 07:20 AM	i tend to the lenient. players can acquire nearly any magic item they can afford. i assume that they are in contact with other adventurers, magic users, churches, collectors etc. they know which blacksmiths occasionally stock magic weapons and which don't, who can reliably gain scrolls, who can be trusted and who can't. during downtime, they contact these people and trade away to their hearts content. it saves a hell of a lot of time. and they will be adequately equipped to overcome the challenges i've set. if i've judged the treasure right, they can't afford anything that will damage my campaign. if need be i have retained right to veto any player suggestion. but haven't needed to yet. i also see no point in stitching up the players with cursed/stolen/ineffective magic. i'd rather get on with the main story.
VirgilCaine 02-10-04, 08:21 AM	No single item costs more than 88,000 gp (which only barely falls into the 'major item' bracket) and we've travelled to Waterdeep specifically to go shopping but I'm fairly sure that the DM will do something random that screws it up for me. Gee, that sucks, Will Brandiman. I have to say that the original poster is making a big mistake giving the PCs so much gold.
Dryder 02-10-04, 10:24 AM	In my campaign I don't allow magic shops. But my players my buy the items - I solved the problem this way: There is an "underground" scene, which makes, from time to time, auctions, where only invited guests can be part of! This scene is led by two people, who travel the whole country to make these auctions in secret. Normally, they cooperate with local thieve guilds, because the have the propper locations! My PCs get to know them, because they once rescued the daughter of one of those leaders, who invited them to attend one such auction, and gave them a special pass to attend other's in other citys. Of course, the PCs have to find out when such auctions are made, and where the place is... The leaders charge 2/10 of every sold item, and a fee of 50gp to put the item into the auction, wether it will be sold or not! The leaders have a strong company of bodyguards, and everybody thinks they are rich merchants. The fun thing with this is, during auctions, there can happen a lot of things... I use it normally to bring new NPCs into play! The auctions are considered NEUTRAL ground, so there might be a lot of DIFFERENT creatures in peace together, where normally they wuld fight each other on the spot! This system is working really well in my campaign!!! Not only because the PCs have a place where to sell such items!
green_yawgmoth 02-10-04, 12:16 PM	Here's how my DM handles it: "Anything in the PHB is fair game. Ask me about stuff anywhere else; if it's reasonable, I'll allow it." Seems to work good. *coughcoughslightlyhackandslashcough*
Autosponge 02-10-04, 12:29 PM	Here are three purchasing examples using the system found in A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. If you like the way this seems to work, check out the book here: http://www.exp.citymax.com/catalog/item/470155/152874.htm Purchasing Examples Oswync fitz Richer needs a pound of nutmeg (Purchase price DC 12) for his next dinner party. He lives in Pushkar (a large city, purchase roll modifier of +9) so he shouldn’t have any difficulty finding nutmeg. Unfortunately, the player rolls a 1 for his purchase roll. Oswync can’t find anyone willing to sell nutmeg at 11 gp a pound in Pushkar, and his dinner party is tomorrow night! Oswync decides to offer the spice merchant 13.75 gp (1.25 buyer’s modifier of +1, giving a total +10 to his roll) and the player rolls again. This time he gets a 15 and Oswync’s dinner party is saved! Noiwyr Chemdam wants to purchase a sailing ship (Purchase price DC of 25) for his next voyage of discovery. Noiwyr is in a port metropolis (+12 purchase modifer: if he wasn’t in a port town, there would be no sailing ships available at all) so he has a decent chance of finding a sailing ship currently for sale. The player rolls a 16 and Noiwyr finds his ship. Numli the Dwarf needs a replacement dwarven waraxe because it was turned to rust by an unfriendly druid whom Numli the Dwarf then pummled to death with a rock (serves him right!). Numli goes to the hamlet (-2 purchase modifier) he was helping and tries to find a replacement. Dwarven waraxes have a purchase DC of 15. Numli’s player rolls a 10 for a total of 7 so he finds no axe for 30 gp. The player then rolls with an buyer’s modifer of +1 and still no axe. The same happens for buyer’s modifiers of +2, and +3. Numli’s player reluctantly goes to a +4 buyer’s modifier and rolls a 14. Happiness! A dwarven waraxe is found for Numli, and he only had to pay 60 gp. Numli is now a bit upset about choosing a rare weapon to specialize in, but he’s glad to have an axe.
danielinthewolvesden 02-10-04, 06:20 PM	Originally posted by Aucturos For "upgrading" item bonuses, the ORIGINAL creator must cast the necessary spells. That seems like a lot of trouble to hunt down "Baelroth the Brain Dead" to upgrade your +1 Flaming Sword into a +2 Flaming sword... I disagree.