Allowing certain races into a campaign and player's feelings... yikes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Allowing certain races into a campaign and player's feelings... yikes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kevtar
06-14-05, 04:07 PM Hi all,

I am running a campaign where I am allowing the players to use core races and a few "monstrous" species (hobgoblin, drow, kobold, etc...) I had one person wnat to play with a "twilight elf." Does anyone know what this is? Is this a WoTC creation or some other publisher? I have never heard of them, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.

The player has never played PnP roleplaying and sent me the stats for the race. They are 1/2 gray elf and 1/2 drow. According to him, they have the following ability adjustments and features:

"twilight elves"
Twilight Elf Traits (Ex):

- -2 Strength,
+2 Dexterity,
+2 Intelligence (males),
+2 Charisma,
+2 Wisdom
(females)

- Darkvision to 60 feet.

- SR 6 +class levels

- +1 racial bonus on checks that use Charisma.

- +1 racial bonus on Will saves against non-enchantment spells and non-
enchantment spell-like abilities.

- +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison.

- Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

- Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment
spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This
adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.

- Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws (doesn't apply to
gnomes) against illusion spells cast by Twilight Elf bards. This adjustment
stacks with those from similar effects.

- Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Search, and Spot are available skills for all
classes. At 1st level, a Twilight Elf automatically gains 5 ranks in Disguise
as a bonus.

- +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who
merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a
Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

- Spell-Like Abilities: Once per day, these elves may cast Charm Person as a
caster of the elf's class levels or as a 2nd level caster, whichever is
higher. Armor and weapons do not interfere with the casting of this spell.

- Magical Rings: Twilight elves have a ring of extraordinary Undetectable
Alignment (on the right short finger) and a ring of extraordinary Disguise
Self (on the left short finger). The rings are thin and plain platinum bands
in appearance, can only be removed normally by a Twilight Elf, possess
permanent Nyst's Magic Aura, and are unaffected by the elements. They have no effect on other rings these elves wear. Their non-cursed effects are equal to the corresponding spells cast by a 2nd-level caster or a caster of the elf's class levels, whichever is higher. Detect Magic will not detect the effects of either ring, and Dispel Magic has no effect on the effects of the rings or the rings themselves. An anti-magic field has no effect on the rings or their effects. They can only be worn successfully by members of their race. If a member of another race puts one on, as long as the ring is on, it has an extraordinary cursed effect that reduces the wearer's Charisma ability to 1.

Additionally, the effects Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self do not
function for anyone but a Twilight Elf. Twilight Elves feel compelled to wear
their rings, and will not take them off voluntarily. A Twilight Elf may
change disguises at will and may also switch between a disguise and the elf's
true appearance at will. The elf may discontinue the Undetectable Alignment
effect for as long as he/she wishes, and may reinstitute it at will.

-Weapon Proficiency: In addition to the weapons proficiency of Gray elves,
these elves are automatically proficient with the light repeating crossbow.

All of this with a +1 LA.

So I told the player that I think the LA is off, it should be more in the neighborhood of +2 or +3 (without even considering the possession of the ring). When taking the ring into consideration, I told him that we are starting at 4th level and that such an item would be out of the wealth range for the PCs. ( I used the suggested PC treasure table in the DMG [pg135 or 136] and added that no one item can be worth more than 20% of the total ,5400gp)

I suggested he have a backup PC to use and that I would look more closely at the race he submitted.

I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play. So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair?

Thanks
mastroyo
06-14-05, 04:17 PM I would like to suggest the 'slamingdoorintheface' elf. This one you should apply to this player.
cambric
06-14-05, 04:21 PM I would like to suggest the 'slamingdoorintheface' elf. This one you should apply to this player.

Yeah, 2nd that motion.

Sounds like someone is wanting to play "outside the box" when it comes to fairness. I think you should let him drop and stay friends. I foresee this person wanting and asking for more and more as the campaign goes on...and other players might get a bit "touchy" if they are not on equal playing ground.

Cam
prettyripples
06-14-05, 04:45 PM Clearly, the race is ridiculous, either by accident or design.

Simply giving him a high LA will not suffice, as he'll only try to pull this kind of thing again. Instead, ask him where he got it. Explain gently that you'll only allow official WotC products, and that even then it's your choice (though you'll probably say yes). Finally, say "no" to the twilight elf, and help him draw up something similar as a standard elven subrace (based on the UA racial variants or the DMG "modifying races" section, pg 170.

Do not kick him out of the game. That's silly - you haven't even played with him yet.
VirgilCaine
06-14-05, 04:53 PM I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play. So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair?

Thanks

You're being perfectly fair.
That race might be appropriate if you were starting, say, a tenth level game (where the character could afford the rings) and if it wasn't indicative of worse player tendencies--like the whole getting (non-magical?) magic rings for free.
Rabid Dire Wolverine
06-14-05, 04:57 PM Twilight Elves are a race from Codex of Erde, a campaign setting for version 3. However, those are not it's stats, so it could be a coincidence with the name.
And you are being perfectly fair.
ehrin
06-14-05, 05:32 PM this guy should play with the other player, who wants to do a magical burst miles in radius that will deal 100D6 damage to every enemy in range, at will.
prettyripples
06-14-05, 05:42 PM this guy should play with the other player, who wants to do a magical burst miles in radius that will deal 100D6 damage to every enemy in range, at will.
Just wait, they'd fight.

"I use my magical burst to kill him!"

"I disguise myself as a pebble, and the burst decides not to hurt me"

"You can't do that! The burst is too quick to react to!"

"Well you can't kill me... I've got a third, hidden "Ring of not Dying"!"

"Cheat!" ::picks up knife::

"Me, a cheat?! What about you, you broken, overpowered freak?" ::grabs sharp pencil::

DM: "You both see a super-powerful magic item on the other side of the cavern."

::the two stop fighting, and hurridley babble instructions. They cease fighting until it becomes clear that there was only one item. Rinse. Repeat.::
Paladin2004
06-14-05, 05:52 PM :rofl: This is soo obviously made up, and if it is official, be afraid, be very afraid.

my favourite bit of this race is where the player has blatantly tried tried to get you to let him start with his custom magic item.

"oh and yeah, this race , they start with magic rings which provide Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self but don't worry its balanced cause only MY race can use it oh and erm yeah it minus one of my dump stat, i mean charisma"
GDwarf
06-14-05, 06:10 PM I loved the fac that his magic rings work in an anti-magic field, and cannot be dispelled. They apparently use special "Twilight Elf" magic that works by increasing the level sof munchkinism in the area high enough that everyone is blinded so they cna't detect the Elf's alignment nor can they tell what they look like.

Anyways, in short, as far as I know that is not and never was a race, and if it was you can always say "no". If he drops the game then he does, this will sound harsh, but it seems he was trying to take advantage of a DM that he thought didn't know the rules, or simply thought that you were nice enough that he could get away with it. If that's what he' like you don't want him in your game.
Thoronmir
06-14-05, 06:28 PM So I told the player that I think the LA is off, it should be more in the neighborhood of +2 or +3 (without even considering the possession of the ring). When taking the ring into consideration, I told him that we are starting at 4th level and that such an item would be out of the wealth range for the PCs. ( I used the suggested PC treasure table in the DMG [pg135 or 136] and added that no one item can be worth more than 20% of the total ,5400gp)You were being far more generous than I would have been.I suggested he have a backup PC to use and that I would look more closely at the race he submitted.An eminently reasonable position to take.I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play.I bet you went "WHEW!" when he told you (I know I would have).So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair?I've never heard of such a race (and am unfamiliar with the Codex of Erde cited by RDW). But I'm fairly certain that even the splatiest of splatbooks would not try to sneak such an unbalanced race past watchful DMs.
TheDarkestOfAngels
06-14-05, 07:15 PM I am running a campaign where I am allowing the players to use core races and a few "monstrous" species (hobgoblin, drow, kobold, etc...) I had one person wnat to play with a "twilight elf." Does anyone know what this is? Is this a WoTC creation or some other publisher? I have never heard of them, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.
Perhaps they do, but I own several dozen WotC D&D books and I haven't heard of them.
Judging by the look of the writup you've provided, I can definately say that it isn't of WotC-Quality craftsmanship.
They usually design races and classes with... y'know... balance in mind.

The player has never played PnP roleplaying and sent me the stats for the race. They are 1/2 gray elf and 1/2 drow. According to him, they have the following ability adjustments and features:

"twilight elves"
Twilight Elf Traits (Ex):

- -2 Strength,
+2 Dexterity,
+2 Intelligence (males),
+2 Charisma,
+2 Wisdom
(females)

- Darkvision to 60 feet.

- SR 6 +class levels

- +1 racial bonus on checks that use Charisma.

- +1 racial bonus on Will saves against non-enchantment spells and non-
enchantment spell-like abilities.

- +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison.

- Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

- Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment
spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This
adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.

- Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws (doesn't apply to
gnomes) against illusion spells cast by Twilight Elf bards. This adjustment
stacks with those from similar effects.

- Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Search, and Spot are available skills for all
classes. At 1st level, a Twilight Elf automatically gains 5 ranks in Disguise
as a bonus.

- +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who
merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a
Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

- Spell-Like Abilities: Once per day, these elves may cast Charm Person as a
caster of the elf's class levels or as a 2nd level caster, whichever is
higher. Armor and weapons do not interfere with the casting of this spell.

- Magical Rings: Twilight elves have a ring of extraordinary Undetectable
Alignment (on the right short finger) and a ring of extraordinary Disguise
Self (on the left short finger). The rings are thin and plain platinum bands
in appearance, can only be removed normally by a Twilight Elf, possess
permanent Nyst's Magic Aura, and are unaffected by the elements. They have no effect on other rings these elves wear. Their non-cursed effects are equal to the corresponding spells cast by a 2nd-level caster or a caster of the elf's class levels, whichever is higher. Detect Magic will not detect the effects of either ring, and Dispel Magic has no effect on the effects of the rings or the rings themselves. An anti-magic field has no effect on the rings or their effects. They can only be worn successfully by members of their race. If a member of another race puts one on, as long as the ring is on, it has an extraordinary cursed effect that reduces the wearer's Charisma ability to 1.

Additionally, the effects Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self do not
function for anyone but a Twilight Elf. Twilight Elves feel compelled to wear
their rings, and will not take them off voluntarily. A Twilight Elf may
change disguises at will and may also switch between a disguise and the elf's
true appearance at will. The elf may discontinue the Undetectable Alignment
effect for as long as he/she wishes, and may reinstitute it at will.

-Weapon Proficiency: In addition to the weapons proficiency of Gray elves,
these elves are automatically proficient with the light repeating crossbow.

All of this with a +1 LA.
This is ridiculous.
I can already tell that the design of this "elf" obviously is not meant to be anything other than material the player in question wants to use to better optimize his build as opposed to using something fair.
This is extremely unbalanced and given the stats for each race (gray elf and dark elf) many of the abilities and especially the "magic rings" make no sense whatsoever.

If you seriously want to allow him to play a "twillight elf" of his own creation, you should work with him to find something appropriate.
For example, as a 1/2 drow and 1/2 gray elf, it should possess the racial qualities that both races share automatically. Some of the qualities could transfer at 1/2 power (60ft darkvision for the Twillight Elf vs. 120ft of the parent dark elf).
Some others should be removed completely. SR should go, that typically doesn't carry over in a half-breed of anything (such as with half dragons and half fiends and half celestials) and perhaps even the spell-like abilities of the parent drow should also be eliminated.
Weapon Proficiencies should be of one parent or the other. Not both.
THe light blindness thing could be removed.
Ability adjustments would probably be +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int since both races share those adjustments, but not hte +2 charisma, since that only belongs to the dark elf parent.
Do not include all the other crap that was added to the stats I quoted from you. It serves no purpose and no elf in my immediate recollection has any abilities along those lines. They simply make no sense except to give that particular player an unfair advantage.

The race I provided, however, should work at LA+1, even if a bit weak.
If you remove one of the positive ability adjustments and the darkvision, you could probably even keep it at +0, but then it wouldn't be much different from either a gray elf or a regular elf.

Ignoring all that, however, if you have any inkling that it isn't balanced, just don't allow it. Trust me, your first instinct about this race is the correct one. Given that your player was enough of a jerk just to walk off because you wouldn't let him play a race he wanted, you might be better off that way.

am I not being realisitc or fair?
you're accusing the wrong person of "being unrealistic or fair." You are right in this call and he (or she, I don't know) is not right.
If they upped and left just because you put your foot down about this unbalanced monstrosity, it is not you who is being either unrealistic or fair. Quite the opposite, in fact.
The player in question, however, IS the one that is not only being niether realistic nor fair is also being childish.
Megrim_Lord
06-14-05, 07:47 PM yes, the player who suggested this race obviously has no grasp of balance, but we really don't know anything about him, so instead of mocking him try helping him, for example you could offer a fixed version of the race, like this:

"twilight elves"
Twilight Elf Traits (Ex):

-2 Strength
+2 Dexterity
-2 Constitution
+2 Intelligence (males)
+2 Charisma
+2 Wisdom
(females)

- Darkvision to 60 feet.
- +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities or effects.
- +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison.
- Immunity to magic sleep effects.
- Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment
spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This
adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
- Twilight Elves of any class treat Disguise and Intimidate as class skills
- +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who
merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a
Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
- Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day- Charm Person, Undetectable Alignment, Disguise Self
-Weapon Proficiency: Twilight elves start out with extra weapon proficiencies like all elves, these proficiencies may be those of a drow elf or those of a high elf.

+2 LA.
Kevtar
06-14-05, 10:05 PM Thanks for all the input. I emailed him after the incident and he mentioned that after speaking with other players, he didn't think his original character would be very useful. He then decided to make his own race that "would make an effective bard and add flavor" (his words, not mine).

I certainly don't fault him because he is brand new to D&D, but I wish he would've just asked me for more information before the whole thing started. I could've shown him a lot of options for races & classes that might have been the niche he was looking for.

As it is, he said he dropped because he was bugged by my response, but I can't help that. I was trying to be careful in letting him know that the class wouldn't work. The gaming group met tonight, and we ran a good game without him. Still, I left an invitation for him to join, and I told him if he wants to play, he can take a core race/class or a race/class from the approved list I distributed. So, I guess I'll just wait and see what happens.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 06-14-05, 04:07 PM	Hi all, I am running a campaign where I am allowing the players to use core races and a few "monstrous" species (hobgoblin, drow, kobold, etc...) I had one person wnat to play with a "twilight elf." Does anyone know what this is? Is this a WoTC creation or some other publisher? I have never heard of them, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. The player has never played PnP roleplaying and sent me the stats for the race. They are 1/2 gray elf and 1/2 drow. According to him, they have the following ability adjustments and features: "twilight elves" Twilight Elf Traits (Ex): - -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence (males), +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom (females) - Darkvision to 60 feet. - SR 6 +class levels - +1 racial bonus on checks that use Charisma. - +1 racial bonus on Will saves against non-enchantment spells and non- enchantment spell-like abilities. - +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison. - Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. - Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. - Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws (doesn't apply to gnomes) against illusion spells cast by Twilight Elf bards. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. - Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Search, and Spot are available skills for all classes. At 1st level, a Twilight Elf automatically gains 5 ranks in Disguise as a bonus. - +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. - Spell-Like Abilities: Once per day, these elves may cast Charm Person as a caster of the elf's class levels or as a 2nd level caster, whichever is higher. Armor and weapons do not interfere with the casting of this spell. - Magical Rings: Twilight elves have a ring of extraordinary Undetectable Alignment (on the right short finger) and a ring of extraordinary Disguise Self (on the left short finger). The rings are thin and plain platinum bands in appearance, can only be removed normally by a Twilight Elf, possess permanent Nyst's Magic Aura, and are unaffected by the elements. They have no effect on other rings these elves wear. Their non-cursed effects are equal to the corresponding spells cast by a 2nd-level caster or a caster of the elf's class levels, whichever is higher. Detect Magic will not detect the effects of either ring, and Dispel Magic has no effect on the effects of the rings or the rings themselves. An anti-magic field has no effect on the rings or their effects. They can only be worn successfully by members of their race. If a member of another race puts one on, as long as the ring is on, it has an extraordinary cursed effect that reduces the wearer's Charisma ability to 1. Additionally, the effects Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self do not function for anyone but a Twilight Elf. Twilight Elves feel compelled to wear their rings, and will not take them off voluntarily. A Twilight Elf may change disguises at will and may also switch between a disguise and the elf's true appearance at will. The elf may discontinue the Undetectable Alignment effect for as long as he/she wishes, and may reinstitute it at will. -Weapon Proficiency: In addition to the weapons proficiency of Gray elves, these elves are automatically proficient with the light repeating crossbow. All of this with a +1 LA. So I told the player that I think the LA is off, it should be more in the neighborhood of +2 or +3 (without even considering the possession of the ring). When taking the ring into consideration, I told him that we are starting at 4th level and that such an item would be out of the wealth range for the PCs. ( I used the suggested PC treasure table in the DMG [pg135 or 136] and added that no one item can be worth more than 20% of the total ,5400gp) I suggested he have a backup PC to use and that I would look more closely at the race he submitted. I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play. So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair? Thanks
mastroyo 06-14-05, 04:17 PM	I would like to suggest the 'slamingdoorintheface' elf. This one you should apply to this player.
cambric 06-14-05, 04:21 PM	I would like to suggest the 'slamingdoorintheface' elf. This one you should apply to this player. Yeah, 2nd that motion. Sounds like someone is wanting to play "outside the box" when it comes to fairness. I think you should let him drop and stay friends. I foresee this person wanting and asking for more and more as the campaign goes on...and other players might get a bit "touchy" if they are not on equal playing ground. Cam
prettyripples 06-14-05, 04:45 PM	Clearly, the race is ridiculous, either by accident or design. Simply giving him a high LA will not suffice, as he'll only try to pull this kind of thing again. Instead, ask him where he got it. Explain gently that you'll only allow official WotC products, and that even then it's your choice (though you'll probably say yes). Finally, say "no" to the twilight elf, and help him draw up something similar as a standard elven subrace (based on the UA racial variants or the DMG "modifying races" section, pg 170. Do not kick him out of the game. That's silly - you haven't even played with him yet.
VirgilCaine 06-14-05, 04:53 PM	I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play. So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair? Thanks You're being perfectly fair. That race might be appropriate if you were starting, say, a tenth level game (where the character could afford the rings) and if it wasn't indicative of worse player tendencies--like the whole getting (non-magical?) magic rings for free.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 06-14-05, 04:57 PM	Twilight Elves are a race from Codex of Erde, a campaign setting for version 3. However, those are not it's stats, so it could be a coincidence with the name. And you are being perfectly fair.
ehrin 06-14-05, 05:32 PM	this guy should play with the other player, who wants to do a magical burst miles in radius that will deal 100D6 damage to every enemy in range, at will.
prettyripples 06-14-05, 05:42 PM	this guy should play with the other player, who wants to do a magical burst miles in radius that will deal 100D6 damage to every enemy in range, at will. Just wait, they'd fight. "I use my magical burst to kill him!" "I disguise myself as a pebble, and the burst decides not to hurt me" "You can't do that! The burst is too quick to react to!" "Well you can't kill me... I've got a third, hidden "Ring of not Dying"!" "Cheat!" ::picks up knife:: "Me, a cheat?! What about you, you broken, overpowered freak?" ::grabs sharp pencil:: DM: "You both see a super-powerful magic item on the other side of the cavern." ::the two stop fighting, and hurridley babble instructions. They cease fighting until it becomes clear that there was only one item. Rinse. Repeat.::
Paladin2004 06-14-05, 05:52 PM	:rofl: This is soo obviously made up, and if it is official, be afraid, be very afraid. my favourite bit of this race is where the player has blatantly tried tried to get you to let him start with his custom magic item. "oh and yeah, this race , they start with magic rings which provide Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self but don't worry its balanced cause only MY race can use it oh and erm yeah it minus one of my dump stat, i mean charisma"
GDwarf 06-14-05, 06:10 PM	I loved the fac that his magic rings work in an anti-magic field, and cannot be dispelled. They apparently use special "Twilight Elf" magic that works by increasing the level sof munchkinism in the area high enough that everyone is blinded so they cna't detect the Elf's alignment nor can they tell what they look like. Anyways, in short, as far as I know that is not and never was a race, and if it was you can always say "no". If he drops the game then he does, this will sound harsh, but it seems he was trying to take advantage of a DM that he thought didn't know the rules, or simply thought that you were nice enough that he could get away with it. If that's what he' like you don't want him in your game.
Thoronmir 06-14-05, 06:28 PM	So I told the player that I think the LA is off, it should be more in the neighborhood of +2 or +3 (without even considering the possession of the ring). When taking the ring into consideration, I told him that we are starting at 4th level and that such an item would be out of the wealth range for the PCs. ( I used the suggested PC treasure table in the DMG [pg135 or 136] and added that no one item can be worth more than 20% of the total ,5400gp)You were being far more generous than I would have been.I suggested he have a backup PC to use and that I would look more closely at the race he submitted.An eminently reasonable position to take.I just found out that he wants to be dropped and doesn't want to play.I bet you went "WHEW!" when he told you (I know I would have).So, is there a race called "twilight elves? and am I not being realisitc or fair?I've never heard of such a race (and am unfamiliar with the Codex of Erde cited by RDW). But I'm fairly certain that even the splatiest of splatbooks would not try to sneak such an unbalanced race past watchful DMs.
TheDarkestOfAngels 06-14-05, 07:15 PM	I am running a campaign where I am allowing the players to use core races and a few "monstrous" species (hobgoblin, drow, kobold, etc...) I had one person wnat to play with a "twilight elf." Does anyone know what this is? Is this a WoTC creation or some other publisher? I have never heard of them, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps they do, but I own several dozen WotC D&D books and I haven't heard of them. Judging by the look of the writup you've provided, I can definately say that it isn't of WotC-Quality craftsmanship. They usually design races and classes with... y'know... balance in mind. The player has never played PnP roleplaying and sent me the stats for the race. They are 1/2 gray elf and 1/2 drow. According to him, they have the following ability adjustments and features: "twilight elves" Twilight Elf Traits (Ex): - -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence (males), +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom (females) - Darkvision to 60 feet. - SR 6 +class levels - +1 racial bonus on checks that use Charisma. - +1 racial bonus on Will saves against non-enchantment spells and non- enchantment spell-like abilities. - +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison. - Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. - Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. - Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws (doesn't apply to gnomes) against illusion spells cast by Twilight Elf bards. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. - Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Search, and Spot are available skills for all classes. At 1st level, a Twilight Elf automatically gains 5 ranks in Disguise as a bonus. - +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. - Spell-Like Abilities: Once per day, these elves may cast Charm Person as a caster of the elf's class levels or as a 2nd level caster, whichever is higher. Armor and weapons do not interfere with the casting of this spell. - Magical Rings: Twilight elves have a ring of extraordinary Undetectable Alignment (on the right short finger) and a ring of extraordinary Disguise Self (on the left short finger). The rings are thin and plain platinum bands in appearance, can only be removed normally by a Twilight Elf, possess permanent Nyst's Magic Aura, and are unaffected by the elements. They have no effect on other rings these elves wear. Their non-cursed effects are equal to the corresponding spells cast by a 2nd-level caster or a caster of the elf's class levels, whichever is higher. Detect Magic will not detect the effects of either ring, and Dispel Magic has no effect on the effects of the rings or the rings themselves. An anti-magic field has no effect on the rings or their effects. They can only be worn successfully by members of their race. If a member of another race puts one on, as long as the ring is on, it has an extraordinary cursed effect that reduces the wearer's Charisma ability to 1. Additionally, the effects Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Self do not function for anyone but a Twilight Elf. Twilight Elves feel compelled to wear their rings, and will not take them off voluntarily. A Twilight Elf may change disguises at will and may also switch between a disguise and the elf's true appearance at will. The elf may discontinue the Undetectable Alignment effect for as long as he/she wishes, and may reinstitute it at will. -Weapon Proficiency: In addition to the weapons proficiency of Gray elves, these elves are automatically proficient with the light repeating crossbow. All of this with a +1 LA. This is ridiculous. I can already tell that the design of this "elf" obviously is not meant to be anything other than material the player in question wants to use to better optimize his build as opposed to using something fair. This is extremely unbalanced and given the stats for each race (gray elf and dark elf) many of the abilities and especially the "magic rings" make no sense whatsoever. If you seriously want to allow him to play a "twillight elf" of his own creation, you should work with him to find something appropriate. For example, as a 1/2 drow and 1/2 gray elf, it should possess the racial qualities that both races share automatically. Some of the qualities could transfer at 1/2 power (60ft darkvision for the Twillight Elf vs. 120ft of the parent dark elf). Some others should be removed completely. SR should go, that typically doesn't carry over in a half-breed of anything (such as with half dragons and half fiends and half celestials) and perhaps even the spell-like abilities of the parent drow should also be eliminated. Weapon Proficiencies should be of one parent or the other. Not both. THe light blindness thing could be removed. Ability adjustments would probably be +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int since both races share those adjustments, but not hte +2 charisma, since that only belongs to the dark elf parent. Do not include all the other crap that was added to the stats I quoted from you. It serves no purpose and no elf in my immediate recollection has any abilities along those lines. They simply make no sense except to give that particular player an unfair advantage. The race I provided, however, should work at LA+1, even if a bit weak. If you remove one of the positive ability adjustments and the darkvision, you could probably even keep it at +0, but then it wouldn't be much different from either a gray elf or a regular elf. Ignoring all that, however, if you have any inkling that it isn't balanced, just don't allow it. Trust me, your first instinct about this race is the correct one. Given that your player was enough of a jerk just to walk off because you wouldn't let him play a race he wanted, you might be better off that way. am I not being realisitc or fair? you're accusing the wrong person of "being unrealistic or fair." You are right in this call and he (or she, I don't know) is not right. If they upped and left just because you put your foot down about this unbalanced monstrosity, it is not you who is being either unrealistic or fair. Quite the opposite, in fact. The player in question, however, IS the one that is not only being niether realistic nor fair is also being childish.
Megrim_Lord 06-14-05, 07:47 PM	yes, the player who suggested this race obviously has no grasp of balance, but we really don't know anything about him, so instead of mocking him try helping him, for example you could offer a fixed version of the race, like this: "twilight elves" Twilight Elf Traits (Ex): -2 Strength +2 Dexterity -2 Constitution +2 Intelligence (males) +2 Charisma +2 Wisdom (females) - Darkvision to 60 feet. - +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities or effects. - +1 racial bonus for saving throws against poison. - Immunity to magic sleep effects. - Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment spells cast by these elves. Add an additional +1 against elves. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. - Twilight Elves of any class treat Disguise and Intimidate as class skills - +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An Twilight Elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. - Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day- Charm Person, Undetectable Alignment, Disguise Self -Weapon Proficiency: Twilight elves start out with extra weapon proficiencies like all elves, these proficiencies may be those of a drow elf or those of a high elf. +2 LA.
Kevtar 06-14-05, 10:05 PM	Thanks for all the input. I emailed him after the incident and he mentioned that after speaking with other players, he didn't think his original character would be very useful. He then decided to make his own race that "would make an effective bard and add flavor" (his words, not mine). I certainly don't fault him because he is brand new to D&D, but I wish he would've just asked me for more information before the whole thing started. I could've shown him a lot of options for races & classes that might have been the niche he was looking for. As it is, he said he dropped because he was bugged by my response, but I can't help that. I was trying to be careful in letting him know that the class wouldn't work. The gaming group met tonight, and we ran a good game without him. Still, I left an invitation for him to join, and I told him if he wants to play, he can take a core race/class or a race/class from the approved list I distributed. So, I guess I'll just wait and see what happens.