Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tarinax 01-03-08, 08:17 PM	A little while back, I was DM'ing for my standard group (Swordsage, Warblade, Rogue, Paladin, and Sorc), when a friend of one of the players decided to invite herself along. Now, I wasn't inclined to throw her out right away, since she had never played with me before. She was playing a prostitute, but I can't remember much else about the character. Other than the fact that she was obnoxiously bitc...you get the idea, both IC and OOC. Grrr... Anyhoo, as we were playing, one member of the group did something that completely boned one aspect of the story (details really aren't important at this point). I had spent several hours carefully setting this up, only to have it ruined by one of my PC's. Suffice it to say, I was irked, since one little action killed about 2 hours of gameplay. The problem occurred later, however, when we resumed from a break. I was frustrated that I couldn't come up with anything else to do, and jokingly threatened the player with killing off their character. Not that I would have done any such thing. However, the friend of the friend decided this would be a good time to be more...you know...than she had all night by calling me "emo" repeatedly. I told her to stop, otherwise there would be problems. She kept going, and eventually went into a tirade about how "Emo" I was, while I sat there with a monster manual in hand. After this, I gave her one last warning. Did she stop? Nope. I told the group to roll initiative, as they had been spotted by a blackguard and his cohorts. The BG proceeded to summon a Balor Demon in the middle of the group. I rolled the d%, and it ended up next to the prostitute's square. On its turn, I attacked her with it, and ended up with a N20. Instant vorpal. she got ******, threw her sheets in a display of pure 4 year old, and stormed out. My questions are: 1. Was I in any way wrong by doing this? 2. Does anyone else use combat to stir a group that is otherwise misbehaving? P.S., In case anyone was wondering, the rest of the group, being lvl 21/22, and actually knowing what fortification is, not only survived the encounter, but utterly destroyed the enemies.
Mock26 01-03-08, 08:24 PM	Where were you playing? If you were playing at your place you should have just kicked her out of your house and been done with her. Repeatedly calling you "emo" was just rude and I would never stand for that in my apartment. Also, how old is this person?
Watsyurname529 01-03-08, 08:27 PM	In my opinion, yes, you were in deliberately killing her character just because she was getting on your nerves. She was also wrong in continuing to call you "emo" and be a general b**** and then acting like a 3-yr-old. Now, two wrongs don't make it right. You should have just told her to just stop playing and/or to leave. I know PC's can be a pain sometime but just killing the character 'cause you're mad doesn't make it right. The thing is, it was your game and she wasn't invited so you reserve the right to kick her, which is what you should have done.
tarinax 01-03-08, 08:28 PM	Where were you playing? If you were playing at your place you should have just kicked her out of your house and been done with her. Repeatedly calling you "emo" was just rude and I would never stand for that in my apartment. Also, how old is this person? She is 21 (I think). We were playing at my friend (the warblade's) house, since he has a finished off basement with just a bit more room than my place. Before this happened, this friend had a thing for her, so I was trying to be considerate of that.
PenderGrass 01-03-08, 08:41 PM	Sounds like the arrow through her character's neck looked a lot like a Balor. Random, out-of-nowhere, monsters aren't necessarily the best solution. Specifically, 1. Yes, you were bad in a way by doing this. Is that really an issue? Only you and your group can decide that. 2. I certainly don't. I certainly would not recommend smashing characters to punish players, either. :dragon: *****
Mock26 01-03-08, 08:44 PM	She is 21 (I think). We were playing at my friend (the warblade's) house, since he has a finished off basement with just a bit more room than my place. Before this happened, this friend had a thing for her, so I was trying to be considerate of that. Playing at someone else's house can make for a sticky situation. I think that you need to discuss with your friend how much "power" you actually have in regards to asking people to leave. While as a DM you should have the right to tell people to leave your game, your friend has a right to prevent you from doing this within his own home. Yes, it would be rude of him to disrespect you in such a way, but it is still his home. Like I said, this could be a sticky situation.
doozie 01-03-08, 09:14 PM	If you're having trouble keeping them in line, then just put your books down, close the screen, and walk away. Be an adult, they can't play without their dungeon master. Sure, they'll probably think you're spazzing out at first and everyone will continue to be immature about it, but that isn't your problem, it's their problem, and they're going to realize how big their problem is when they're sitting around the table twiddling their thumbs because they've got nothing better to do. You'll get a call the next day from your friends saying, "hey, when do you want to play next?" that's your opportunity to lay down the law. Your reply is "we can play tomorrow night, but I'm laying down some ground rules."
Saiyamantis 01-03-08, 11:53 PM	While I'm against murdering characters, I've found that throwing out an encounter or two goes a long way to appeasing whiny players. I consider it more of a treat than a punishment, but my local group has a fair number of rollplayers. From your description, it sounds like the prostitute's death was... well, "unfortunate" doesn't seem like quite the right word, so let's just call it incidental. Still, it might have been wise to fudge the rolls a bit to avoid an outright kill (unless you were rolling in the open, in which case there's really no excuse for her behavior).
danielinthewolvesden 01-04-08, 01:21 AM	Anyhoo, as we were playing, one member of the group did something that completely boned one aspect of the story (details really aren't important at this point). I had spent several hours carefully setting this up, only to have it ruined by one of my PC's. Suffice it to say, I was irked, since one little action killed about 2 hours of gameplay. The problem occurred later, however, when we resumed from a break. I was frustrated that I couldn't come up with anything else to do, and jokingly threatened the player with killing off their character. Not that I would have done any such thing. However, the friend of the friend decided this would be a good time to be more...you know...than she had all night by calling me "emo" repeatedly. I told her to stop, otherwise there would be problems. She kept going, and eventually went into a tirade about how "Emo" I was, while I sat there with a monster manual in hand. After this, I gave her one last warning. Did she stop? Nope. I told the group to roll initiative, as they had been spotted by a blackguard and his cohorts. The BG proceeded to summon a Balor Demon in the middle of the group. I rolled the d%, and it ended up next to the prostitute's square. On its turn, I attacked her with it, and ended up with a N20. Instant vorpal. she got ******, threw her sheets in a display of pure 4 year old, and stormed out. My questions are: 1. Was I in any way wrong by doing this? . You were wrong by letting a little thing like "one member of the group did something that completely boned one aspect of the story" result in "...I had spent several hours carefully setting this up, only to have it ruined by one of my PC's. Suffice it to say, I was irked..." The player had no idea he was ruining your plan, and if you are an experienced DM, you have to get used to this, it can NOT make you "irked". So you likely were "emo" Then, you took out an OOC comment upon a PC. That is classic Bad DMing. You could have talked to her or even thrown her out of the game, but killing her PC was immature. And "emo".:P Sorry, but you asked.
skelmar 01-04-08, 01:56 AM	rolling the %d was wrong imo. you should have gone after the biggest threat, not a prostitute. i would half serious apologize. then find a way to hook the fish , er party back on the fishing line, er storyline
Exposed_Wires 01-04-08, 03:07 AM	I'm actually impressed that she got upset. I can't believe she cared enough about the game she was ruining to throw a fit when her character died. I would have just called the game. If a c-word is getting on your nerves (or any of your party for that matter) show them who has the power and just go out for a drink.
metalmayhem80110 01-04-08, 03:48 AM	You were wrong by letting a little thing like "one member of the group did something that completely boned one aspect of the story" result in "...I had spent several hours carefully setting this up, only to have it ruined by one of my PC's. Suffice it to say, I was irked..." The player had no idea he was ruining your plan, and if you are an experienced DM, you have to get used to this, it can NOT make you "irked". So you likely were "emo" Then, you took out an OOC comment upon a PC. That is classic Bad DMing. You could have talked to her or even thrown her out of the game, but killing her PC was immature. And "emo".:P Sorry, but you asked. I don't know, I look at it this way. He was playing at a friends house, so he couldn't really kick her out. His friend (The one who's place they were playing at, if I understand correctly) had a crush/thing for the said bitc... yeah... So he couldn't really kick her out... The only major problem I saw was killing her OBVIOUSLY. You could've simply had somebody buy a prostitute and not intend to pay her. This player would've probably tried to fight him, and he could've killed her. (Also, one action killed an entire plot? Can we hear that story, I'm curious now.
Daeva 01-04-08, 04:18 AM	is her name jenn and a major pot head, because i seriously think i know this girl LOL
Jutter 01-04-08, 04:52 AM	Wether you were right kind of depends on your intention. You were out of prepared material, couldn't come up with something on the spot, so you threw a random encounter. Either to make it to the end of the session, or to buy you some time. It won't get you an oscar for best script, but hey, I don't think we have a lot of oscar-winners here. The encounter appears to be balanced, and the one-shot kill was pure (bad) luck. :cookie: for improvising and keeping the game going. Going on with the game you're playing while somebody misbehaves is a decent way of dealing with it. If, on the other hand, you intended to punish her PC because she was misbehaving, that's a bad call.
mists_cloud 01-04-08, 05:53 AM	I good idea, which I love the idea of, is to buy a book that you'd like reading and whenever she goes on a tangent, pull out the book and start reading, when they ask why you're reading a book, tell them that she's not contributing, and continue to read, let the players sort out the players. I fthey don't you have a really good book that you can enjoy while you wait for them to decide. That's of course, if she's ruining it for everyone. Also talk to her about it, she may not even know she's doing it.
Derrigan 01-04-08, 06:11 AM	Please forgive my ignorance, but "emo"?
Exposed_Wires 01-04-08, 06:29 AM	Please forgive my ignorance, but "emo"? Wiki it. It's basically calling somebody sensative and dramatic.
navar100 01-04-08, 06:36 AM	Fault on you for punishing the players because they did something that ruined your adventure. Players are not to follow your script or else. Obnoxious Girl was a Real Jerk. Real Jerks never like their characters getting killed. It means they didn't get away with it being jerks. That's why she was upset. Her goal was to ruin the game yet her character lived at worse, got great treasure at best, killed a PC gravy. I have no sympathy for her. However, you had an out you should have taken. You ran out of material. You could have said you were tired and called it a day, not necessarily admitting you ran out material. Study which of your players were sincerely mad the game ended and explain to them later. Study which of your players nodded understandingly and wink. Explain nothing to Obnoxious Girl.
toucanbuzz 01-04-08, 10:53 AM	The prostitute class is notoriously underequipped for the rigors of the adventuring world. Starting equipment and money stinks, and abilities are restricted. I woulda said no once she brought that to the table. Otherwise, grudge monsters are a bad idea. Everyone knows why you're doing it and you look weaker for not being a "man" and just confronting the issue in the first place. Sparks may fly but it's better than letting things smolder and turn into a big conflagration later.
mtbOgre 01-04-08, 11:57 AM	My questions are: 1. Was I in any way wrong by doing this? As has been pointed out, yes. Part of the point is separating reality from the game and when you turned a frustrating real experience into a frustrating game experience you take away from everyones enjoyment of the game. Not just punishing her but everyone in the group. As has been pointed out, just telling everyone once and quietly that you are not going to tolerate it and if said stupid behavior doesn't end simply packing up and walking out is your only real solution. Then you can inform your friend that you will not be DMing if she is there next time. Personally I think your mistake goes way further back. Allowing someone to play a character who is a prostitute in any way shape or form is just begging for a bad end.
UAMDB 01-04-08, 12:26 PM	A little while back, I was DM'ing for my standard group (Swordsage, Warblade, Rogue, Paladin, and Sorc), when a friend of one of the players decided to invite herself along. Now, I wasn't inclined to throw her out right away, since she had never played with me before. She was playing a prostitute, but I can't remember much else about the character. Other than the fact that she was obnoxiously bitc...you get the idea, both IC and OOC. Grrr... Anyhoo, as we were playing, one member of the group did something that completely boned one aspect of the story (details really aren't important at this point). I had spent several hours carefully setting this up, only to have it ruined by one of my PC's. Suffice it to say, I was irked, since one little action killed about 2 hours of gameplay. The problem occurred later, however, when we resumed from a break. I was frustrated that I couldn't come up with anything else to do, and jokingly threatened the player with killing off their character. Not that I would have done any such thing. However, the friend of the friend decided this would be a good time to be more...you know...than she had all night by calling me "emo" repeatedly. I told her to stop, otherwise there would be problems. She kept going, and eventually went into a tirade about how "Emo" I was, while I sat there with a monster manual in hand. After this, I gave her one last warning. Did she stop? Nope. I told the group to roll initiative, as they had been spotted by a blackguard and his cohorts. The BG proceeded to summon a Balor Demon in the middle of the group. I rolled the d%, and it ended up next to the prostitute's square. On its turn, I attacked her with it, and ended up with a N20. Instant vorpal. she got ******, threw her sheets in a display of pure 4 year old, and stormed out. My questions are: 1. Was I in any way wrong by doing this? 2. Does anyone else use combat to stir a group that is otherwise misbehaving? P.S., In case anyone was wondering, the rest of the group, being lvl 21/22, and actually knowing what fortification is, not only survived the encounter, but utterly destroyed the enemies. 1) Yes completely. Lets recap what happened. One player messed up your perfect plans that you spent hours working on. This made you mad, and you were not able to come up with something else. You told said player that you were going to kill their character. New person not knowing you, therefor did not realize you were joking, thought that you were being a jerk. The New person called you out for being a jerk. Your response was stop it our something bad will happen, there by reinforcing their opinion of you being a jerk. You made an encounter and killed that players character because you were mad at them. Proving to that person you were a jerk. Did I miss something? Do you once tell her that you were joking about killing the other persons character? According to you, you did not. You just stated "I told her to stop, otherwise there would be problems". How was she being a b*? What was she doing that was so bad before this? It sounds like you two did not hit it off and that caused tension the whole night. 2) Do I use combat to punish players that thought outside the box, and out thought me? No, I give them bonus xp. I never use combat to punish players. If there is a really good reason i don't want the players to go a certain path, I might use monsters to chase them away from said path. Combat should never be punishment. Just like killing characters should not be punishment for OoC actions.
the_rooster 01-04-08, 01:52 PM	If she comes back or is allowed in for whatever reason, and insists on resuming her emo tirade: Simply state clearly that you'll ignore anything she says with 'emo' or something similar. Then do it. If you have the willpower, let her call you whatever and COMPLETELY ignore it until she starts acting like an adult. Your players should eventually nag on her to stop. once the whole room is aginast her, she'll either leave (no more problems) or straighten out her behavior (yay, you gained a player). Above all, in the future, just hold your temper, be calm and play like an adult. Don't even come down to her level by reacting to her tantrums, etc. Just treat her like a 5 year old--she's irrelevant (in this situation, not irrelevant overall).. Were you wrong? Depends on how 'joking' your character kill comment was. If you were saying it with a chuckle or obvious overstatement, then I don't see how anyone would connect the two at all. But I don't know how you said it. Did THEY know you were joking? To me, she sounds like she was antagonizing you intentionally and wasn't adult enough to back down when she crossed from a funny joke to genuine insult. I don't know that the Balor was a good idea, but just saying, "OK. you're being insulting and I'm not going to DM while I'm being insulted. Please stop." Followed up by walking away when she doesn't will quickly get others on your side. At the least, I'd explain the situation to your players before they start coming up with their own ideas and blowing things out of proportion. Communcation ASAP can only be a good thing here.
danielinthewolvesden 01-04-08, 02:04 PM	He was playing at a friends house, so he couldn't really kick her out. His friend (The one who's place they were playing at, if I understand correctly) had a crush/thing for the said bitc... yeah... So he couldn't really kick her out... (Also, one action killed an entire plot? Can we hear that story, I'm curious now. He can too. He is the DM- he can say "She is being disruptive and I can not continue the game with her". I am curious about that action myself....:confused:
mtbOgre 01-04-08, 02:24 PM	1) Yes completely. Lets recap what happened. One player messed up your perfect plans that you spent hours working on. This made you mad, and you were not able to come up with something else. You told said player that you were going to kill their character. New person not knowing you, therefor did not realize you were joking, thought that you were being a jerk. The New person called you out for being a jerk. Your response was stop it our something bad will happen, there by reinforcing their opinion of you being a jerk. You made an encounter and killed that players character because you were mad at them. Proving to that person you were a jerk. Did I miss something? You missed the part where the girl sat there and repeated the word 'emo' over and over again. You apparently interpret this as "calling him out for being a jerk". Had she done as you suggest then I would totally agree with you but instead she reacted in a completely irrational way that made the situation impossible to resolve in a rational way. I agree that tarinax made some mistakes but you are being a bit harsh on him.
Rebel581 01-04-08, 02:38 PM	Both of you made mistakes. I don't think you should've tried to continue on with no material and if you couldn't come up with something on the spot. You should've taken a little break so you could clear your mind. I don't know HOW annoying she was, but fudging the dice a little bit might have been a good idea. Unless you rolled in front of them, your PCs don't know that you killed her character completely by chance. They think you did it to get revenge on her. Although I think she was being a jerk for continuously insulting you past "joke insults." When joke insults get to real insults, it's time to stop. I think she still thought she was in joke insults territory.
Dragonsblood 01-04-08, 02:49 PM	I think it was inappropriate to use this "arrow in the neck" tactic. You shouldn't resort to in character punishment for an out of character problem. It's immature and can cause resentment among your players. That said, I've seen worse things DMs have done. I would use this as an opportunity to lay down some ground rules. At the beginning of your next session, out of character, let all of your players know that you are in charge of who plays with the group. If a player wants to bring a friend, they must meet your approval and you must be warned ahead of time that they are coming so that you can talk to them before the game starts and screen any *******s. You should also make it clear that you have the right to remove any player if they get by your screening and act like an *******.
UAMDB 01-04-08, 03:38 PM	You missed the part where the girl sat there and repeated the word 'emo' over and over again. You apparently interpret this as "calling him out for being a jerk". Had she done as you suggest then I would totally agree with you but instead she reacted in a completely irrational way that made the situation impossible to resolve in a rational way. I agree that tarinax made some mistakes but you are being a bit harsh on him. No I did not miss anything. I just don't believe that we are getting the whole story. Just his side of the story. I find it hard to believe that a person just sat there and repeated the "emo" over and over and thats it, but then jumped back into character when told to roll Init. Something is just not adding up with me. We also don't know who this person was being a bit*#. We are just told that she was one. That is his perception about her. Kind of like the joke Whats the difference between a B and a W? PM me for anwser. AND BTW: I went to wikipedia and searched "EMO" its a rock style? Why would this be an insult? Thats like calling someone "slow jazz", I don't get it.
Elty 01-04-08, 03:49 PM	AND BTW: I went to wikipedia and searched "EMO" its a rock style? Why would this be an insult? Thats like calling someone "slow jazz", I don't get it. "Emo" nowdays is typically used to refer to melodramatic, self-pitying teenagers who are oblivious to their good lot in life and typically dress in tight black pants. I do agree with the above, though; something isn't adding up. I'm not going to pass judgement, because I really don't have enough information.
ravenshrike 01-04-08, 04:26 PM	How exactly did the Blackguard call in a Balor? The only thing I can think of is a CoI.
CelineSSauve 01-04-08, 04:50 PM	If you're having trouble keeping them in line, then just put your books down, close the screen, and walk away. Be an adult, they can't play without their dungeon master. Sure, they'll probably think you're spazzing out at first and everyone will continue to be immature about it, but that isn't your problem, it's their problem, and they're going to realize how big their problem is when they're sitting around the table twiddling their thumbs because they've got nothing better to do.<clip> Then again... <DM walks away from table> <Players glance at each other> "So... you think he's comming back?" <Other players> "Nope." "Ah. So who'd like to DM?" It's much harder to DM to no Players than to find a DM from a pool of available Players. That said, D&D and cooperative effort. If your Player didn't mess up your plans from spite and that still put you in a bad mindframe then I agree with several other posts and say that you might want to work on your flexibility as a DM. "Joking" about killing PCs isn't that great of a first impression...
tarinax 01-04-08, 04:50 PM	Okay, here's a bit more info... This girl is a proven control freak who thinks and acts like she's God's gift to the earth and everyone in it. She wontonly cheats on boyfriends, treats everyone like they're crap, and gets away with it through sex. That having been said, it is true that I can't prove that this isn't me bashing this girl because I don't like her, but I don't do that. I call shots as I see them. This is the general concensus of the rest of my group. Just to clear the air, I didn't do this just to kill her. Granted, i did do it to get the rest of the group mad at her, but at the point we were at, all I could come up with was an evil guy hunt. The fact that a balor 1 shoted her was down to the roll of the dice. For those who asked, mid-game, one of my players had to leave. This had been set up in advance of the night, so I told my player that I'd have his character kidnapped and used as a shield during a business transaction that went south. He agreed, since it'd end with lots of RP when the group finds him. The whole thing happened, so my caster used dominate person on the evil guy (who promptly failed the save), and my friendly warblade decided to obliterate the enemy as he stood there helpless. At this point, I should mention that it was these two i said I was going to kill off, since the rest of the night (about 2 hours of gameplay) was to be based off of this event. The prostitute was not involved in this interchange in any way whatsoever. After this happened, the group went to a small village that was being plagued by an evil person who claimed to be partners with the one they just killed. (Hence me saying an evil hunt was all I could come up with on the spot.) I'm not trying to justify what I did...that's why I started this thread. I'm just giving the rest of the information that everyone wants. have at it.
Lemurion 01-04-08, 04:51 PM	How exactly did the Blackguard call in a Balor? The only thing I can think of is a CoI. It was in his five.
DyloniusFunk 01-04-08, 05:13 PM	Tell the girl that you are tired of her crap and she is no longer welcome in your game. If the guy who is trying to get in her pants gets pissy tell him to take his hard on and go with her. if it's the guy who's house you play at then you need to man up and accept that you might need to game in less that satisfactory conditions, the game is what matters, not the place it's being held. Yes it might suck to have to sit on the floor if you don't have a table but them is the breaks.
tarinax 01-04-08, 05:15 PM	How exactly did the Blackguard call in a Balor? The only thing I can think of is a CoI. According to the DMG: "The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider that was summoned by him or someone else." pg 181 of DMG. Which infers that he has the ability. Besides, no way would 1 Blackguard and a group of 4 cohorts (or so) be able to take the kind of party I DM for. I don't know HOW annoying she was, but fudging the dice a little bit might have been a good idea. Unless you rolled in front of them, your PCs don't know that you killed her character completely by chance. They think you did it to get revenge on her. It's my policy to always roll openly, that way this kind of thing never comes up. Unless it's a very game-breaking roll, such as "can the ranger tracking the party move silently enough to fool the elf?" i always do rolls in the open. I know that some DMs always roll behind a shield, but I don't like to.
pres_man 01-04-08, 05:19 PM	When I hear about people calling others names and the other person gets upset, I always think about a soccer game I played in high school. We were playing against one of the best teams in the state, from a rural town that was almost completely white. My high school was one of the most integretated schools in the state, and we weren't that good of a soccer team. Well somehow that day we were hitting on all cylinders, this of course upset the good team and in an attempt to make my team start playing bad they started using racial slurs to some of our players. At a time out, our minority players were complaining about it, getting upset (just as the other team planned). I told them the next time one of the other guys says a racial slur that my team mate should smile and just say, "Your mother." Just do that, smile and say, "Your mother." All of the players on my team started laughing at this, and did it, needless to say we won the game and the other team just got more upset as they lost and weren't able to get our players off their game. My point here is that when people use name calling, they are trying to get you emotionally upset. It is a way of proving they have control over others (at least on a subconscious level). Just don't let them, or at least don't let them see it. I mean if someone called me "emo", I'd probably have to be picked up off the floor where I was having trouble breathing from laughing so hard. "emo? That's the best you can do?"
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-04-08, 05:20 PM	@ Dyloniusfunk: Sex > than D&D. RL friendship > than D&D. Dude it is just a game. @ OP :OMG! Firstly i have to get this out of my way. Because the BG has to have made contact with a "outsider" does not infer the ability to summon them in combat. Nor does it infer that said evil outsider is a balor, and it definitely does not infer one of the most power demons in the game would be at the beck and call of said BG! If the BG had such an ability it would be spelled out explicitly under their class rules section. It would also include such things, as time required to summon the demon, amount of times/day they could do such a thing, and the power level of the demon they could summon. Or are you saying my pally 6ish BG 1 can summon Balors...If so I'd like to play in your game, I've got a great character concept. On the topic of the player not being involved in the interaction with the player you were joking about toasting: I don't care if it is my PC or not, when the DM is being a dick I'll stand up for my friends. On you bashing her: Sorry my impression is that you are cheesed off she won't sleep with you, or that one of other players would rather sleep with her then play D&D with you. I call it as I see. Regardless it seems that you let you dislike of her effect your game...Bad DM no cookie for you! Just refuse to play with her. Its game, you don't hang out with people you dislike, thats what work is for. General impressions: 1) Don't rialroad. if you don't railroad, your players can't derail the plot. 2) Don't get all emo when the plot is derailed. Roll with it. If you'd like people can tell you how. 3) When a player is acting like a jerk, tell them it bothers you and to stop. If they refuse, then don't hang out with them. Again its a game, not a job. 4) Handle out of character problems out of character. Your not their mommy, and the game is not vehicle for you to punish them, or train them, or anything of the sort. Make it fun, let'm play how they play.
mtbOgre 01-04-08, 05:34 PM	No I did not miss anything. I just don't believe that we are getting the whole story. Just his side of the story. I find it hard to believe that a person just sat there and repeated the "emo" over and over and thats it, but then jumped back into character when told to roll Init. Something is just not adding up with me. I don't know what happened but assume that the OP is asking a legitimate question and telling us events as he saw them. If you want to criticize things he said and did that's fine but you pretty much rewrote the event based on your own perceptions and assumptions.
DudeamisGriff 01-04-08, 08:32 PM	Well as a DM with an 8 year old (son of the other long term member) and a 15 year old (who would be emo if he wasn't so into metal) I understand having to deal with immaturity at times. I think I would've handled it a bit diffrently... When she started calling me emo I'd remind her that we're adults here and that she was not invited into the group and that I was nice enough to let her play up until now. Then I would tell her she has two choices, act like an adult or be treated like a child (I've had to do something similar with the 8 year old and hes done rather well for his age). Children watch Disney movies in their room, adults play. Patience and the ability to ignore people are two of my strong points (thanks to the military and working with autistics) work these two traits up and you'll be able to ignore her right out of the party if you wanted to.
Mock26 01-04-08, 11:46 PM	My point here is that when people use name calling, they are trying to get you emotionally upset. It is a way of proving they have control over others (at least on a subconscious level). Just don't let them, or at least don't let them see it. I mean if someone called me "emo", I'd probably have to be picked up off the floor where I was having trouble breathing from laughing so hard. "emo? That's the best you can do?" But it really doesn't matter if they name calling affects you or not. It is extremely rude to do something like that and if someone repeatedly called me emo (and at 37 I'd risk having a heart attack from laughing so hard) I'd still kick them out. Not becuase the name bothered me, but rather because they showed so little respect for me and my game.
Exposed_Wires 01-05-08, 01:29 AM	@ Dyloniusfunk: Sex > than D&D. RL friendship > than D&D. Dude it is just a game. @ OP Firstly i have to get this out of my way. Because the BG has to have made contact with a "outsider" does not infer the ability to summon them in combat. Nor does it infer that said evil outsider is a balor, and it definitely does not infer one of the most power demons in the game would be at the beck and call of said BG! If the BG had such an ability it would be spelled out explicitly under their class rules section. It would also include such things, as time required to summon the demon, amount of times/day they could do such a thing, and the power level of the demon they could summon. Or are you saying my pally 6ish BG 1 can summon Balors...If so I'd like to play in your game, I've got a great character concept. On the topic of the player not being involved in the interaction with the player you were joking about toasting: I don't care if it is my PC or not, when the DM is being a dick I'll stand up for my friends. On you bashing her: Sorry my impression is that you are cheesed off she won't sleep with you, or that one of other players would rather sleep with her then play D&D with you. I call it as I see. Regardless it seems that you let you dislike of her effect your game...Bad DM no cookie for you! Just refuse to play with her. Its game, you don't hang out with people you dislike, thats what work is for. General impressions: 1) Don't rialroad. if you don't railroad, your players can't derail the plot. 2) Don't get all emo when the plot is derailed. Roll with it. If you'd like people can tell you how. 3) When a player is acting like a jerk, tell them it bothers you and to stop. If they refuse, then don't hang out with them. Again its a game, not a job. 4) Handle out of character problems out of character. Your not their mommy, and the game is not vehicle for you to punish them, or train them, or anything of the sort. Make it fun, let'm play how they play. That's all kinds of wrong and mean. The characters and the BG are all level 20ish, it seems, so who's to say he can't summon anything he wants. Don't be a rules lawyer. 1) How is that railroading? Fudging it and saying that he passed his will save when he didn't would be railroading. They just overcame his material easier than he anticipated and he had nothing left to play. How can you not know what railroading is and come on here bashing somebody? ****** cause she won't sleep with him? You assume the worst of somebody you've never met and I'll assume the worst of you.
Hippokrene 01-05-08, 03:23 AM	Wiki it. It's basically calling somebody sensative and dramatic. That's basically it, here are some things an emo might do: 1. Decide that a player has, through one action, 'ruined' their plot. It doesn't occur to them that the PCs aren't just characters in a novel the DM is writing, so they can't 'ruin' a plot. And it doesn't occur to them that if a single action can 'ruin' a plot, that maybe the plot wasn't that great. 2. Because said player 'ruined' the plot, they are upset and frustrated. 3. Instead of ending the game, or getting over it, they take their frustration out on a player by threatening to kill them. 4. When called on the fact that they're threatening to kill people for no reason, and are generally acting like a five-year-old that's had their desert taken from them, they get angry. 5. Now angry, they use their power as a DM to kill off a PC. 6. Still angry, because for some reason the players are unhappy at being treated unfairly by someone so self-centered and ruled by their emotions that 1-5 happened, they post on the message board, calling the 'bad' player the b-word, and demand everyone else tell them they're a great DM and well within their rights to act like a complete and utter douche. 7: Upon being called for their 'emo' behavior by other DMs, they'll prove they were in the right by attacking the 'bad' player thusly, "This girl is a proven control freak who thinks and acts like she's God's gift to the earth and everyone in it. She wontonly cheats on boyfriends, treats everyone like they're crap, and gets away with it through sex."
Exposed_Wires 01-05-08, 04:49 AM	That's basically it, here are some things an emo might do: Ruined. That was just his choice of words. His plan for their game that evening was shot. Of course he was frusterated. We all are when that happens. Most of us just deal with it, but that doesn't mean it's a great experience. Why are you people taking cheap shots at this guy? Even going so far as to elaborately call him emo in a several paragraph post. (Which is against CoC, but whatever.) The last thing he says in his last post is that he's not trying to defend his actions. To me that sounds like a concession. Like he realizes that maybe he wasn't in the right. I mean sure, by the sound of it, he handled the situation immaturely, but D&D players aren't exactly famous for their social skills and charisma. And what if that girl really is a b****? B****es exist. I was hanging out with one earlier this evening. Her and I get along alright, because I don't really mind her arrogance and she's never boring, but I invited her to my house for new years and when my room mate rubbed her the wrong way 5 minutes after she got there, she spent the rest of the night attacking him relentlessly. Did everything in her power to make his evening worse. In addition, she's slept with some girl's boyfriend specifically to ruin their relationship because she didn't like the girl. A girl can be a b**** just as easily as a guy can be an a******. If even half the stuff he said about her is true, (and he admitted that he was biased too) then all she did was make the game more difficult for him. She sounds like a real winner.
Entropy_Judge 01-05-08, 09:56 AM	1. Decide that a player has, through one action, 'ruined' their plot. It doesn't occur to them that the PCs aren't just characters in a novel the DM is writing, so they can't 'ruin' a plot. And it doesn't occur to them that if a single action can 'ruin' a plot, that maybe the plot wasn't that great. One action ruined his entire plan for the night. So you're saying that a DM should know exactly what a party can do for two hours on the off-chance that the first plan is accidentally ruined? And, if you had read his post that explains what happened, you'd realize that it was basically 'filler' because a player had to leave early and they didn't want to proceed with the normal adventure without him/her. 2. Because said player 'ruined' the plot, they are upset and frustrated. That's a normal reaction. It's called having feelings about something you've spent a lot of time working on. 3. Instead of ending the game, or getting over it, they take their frustration out on a player by threatening to kill them. He was joking with a friend. Friends do this. I know, I've done it myself. 4. When called on the fact that they're threatening to kill people for no reason, and are generally acting like a five-year-old that's had their desert taken from them, they get angry. When repeatedly insulted for saying something in a joking manner by someone who is outside of the joke, he gets upset. Also, it's dessert. Most people would love to have a desert taken away from them. 5. Now angry, they use their power as a DM to kill off a PC. He set up a random encounter. In said encounter, a Balor was summoned, and % dice-roll, in the open, showed it landed near one PC; a second roll, for an attack, also in the open, revealed a natural 20. Balors are armed with Vorpal Swords, and thus, instant decapitation. 6. Still angry, because for some reason the players are unhappy at being treated unfairly by someone so self-centered and ruled by their emotions that 1-5 happened, they post on the message board, calling the 'bad' player the b-word, and demand everyone else tell them they're a great DM and well within their rights to act like a complete and utter douche. He is asking if what he did was wrong. I read nothing that even sounded like a request for vindication (and I doubt you did either); furthermore, if what he said of the offending player is true, she is not only a bad player, but a bad person as well. 7: Upon being called for their 'emo' behavior by other DMs, they'll prove they were in the right by attacking the 'bad' player thusly, "This girl is a proven control freak who thinks and acts like she's God's gift to the earth and everyone in it. She wontonly cheats on boyfriends, treats everyone like they're crap, and gets away with it through sex." Did you read the next paragraph? That having been said, it is true that I can't prove that this isn't me bashing this girl because I don't like her, but I don't do that. I call shots as I see them. This is the general concensus of the rest of my group. Just to clear the air, I didn't do this just to kill her. Granted, i did do it to get the rest of the group mad at her, but at the point we were at, all I could come up with was an evil guy hunt. The fact that a balor 1 shoted her was down to the roll of the dice. (Emphasis mine)
Sunic_Flames 01-05-08, 12:41 PM	I don't get why so much hostility is being directed at the OP. So he sicced a CR 20 demon on a party. An epic party. Epic parties eat Balors for breakfast. With a side of Pit Fiends. Oh and they brush with True Res toothpaste, so even in a ':censored: happens' type situation with a lucky roll, still no big deal. I add to this a fishslap for the woman, because no self respecting epic character or for that matter high level non epic character is in any way vulnerable to precision damage. Now had you done this to a person, it might have been jerkish. You did it to an emo douchebag. Emo douchebags are not people because they lack the basic reasoning skills all people (and for that matter, most non human animals) possess and are therefore unworthy of respect on any level. As a result, treating them in a Lawful Evil manner is entirely justified. In fact I think you were too nice about it. You should have used a Druid/Planar Shepherd.
ppirilla 01-05-08, 01:04 PM	Using "Oh Noes, a random monster appears! Roll Initiative" is, in my experience, a great way to refocus a distracted group on the game. Intentionally going after a player's character, especially for something said out of character, is a Very Bad Thing. Now, from your recounting of the evening, you seem to have had a very distracted group. You introduced what seems to be a level-appropriate encounter, and made all rolls in the open. It sounds to me like this girl got screwed over by bad luck and reacted badly to it. Technically, you did nothing wrong in that encounter. I say technically because having a player leave the table upset is probably the worst thing that can happen to a game you DM. In your case, it may well have been the best move, but, as I've said before, being Right often has to take a back seat to Having Fun.
Thubby 01-05-08, 02:38 PM	what is OOC stays OOC. NEVER bring it IC, EVER!!! it can only lead to problems. bad, bad DM. :mad:
danielinthewolvesden 01-06-08, 12:48 AM	That's all kinds of wrong and mean. A little mean maybe, but hardly wrong. In fact, it appears spot on.
Toran_A_Sunder 01-06-08, 01:28 AM	Emo. It's the new Goth. Ok, seriously though. Enough of this politically correct fluffy bunny crap. Also, enough of this "I'm gonna sit on my pedestal and tell you what a lousy DM you are" crap too. A1: Any DM who has DMed long enough has had a PC action throw off a carefully planned adventure. Any DM who has experienced this has felt rightly "irked" because, yes, it forces you to suddenly think on the fly and improvise when you were not expecting to. Any DM who says he or she didn't feel "irked" is either lieing, or has never actually had it happen to them. Yes, a good DM improvises when this occurs. That doesn't make it any less frustrating. A2: Would I have used an in game mechanic to take out my frustration with a player on his character? No, I wouldn't have. Can I blame you for doing it? No, I can't. She wasn't there to really play game if all she could do was tease you incessantly. Could you have handled it better? Yes. Should you hang for it? No. You're human, like every other DM out there, and we all make mistakes. Look at this way. At least now when she doesn't show up for game next time no one is asking where her character is. A3: Can a blackguard summon a balor? Who gives a damn. He's the DM, he was shot for ideas and taken off guard, and he did the best he could at the time considering his frustration both with what happened in game and out of game. Do the rules specifically say a blackguard can summon a balor? No. Can the DM make it otherwise? Yes. Guidelines people. Not carved in granite rules. At least you tried to keep the game going and not disappoint everyone by ending it prematurely. Points for keeping your players in mind. A4: Ok so your friend has the hots for this girl and you didn't want to step on his toes. Go you for keeping him in mind. Next time you'll know that instead of summoning an outsider to get rid of an annoying player, intentionally or otherwise, you should just tell them to clam up, or get the frag out. And if it's at your friend's house and he's cheesed off that you ruined his chance to get some, I'll bet dollars to donuts he's still sitting there at game next time.
Exposed_Wires 01-06-08, 01:42 AM	I'll bet dollars to donuts he's still sitting there at game next time. Quoted for truth. This just occurred to me; how exactly does a prostitute reach epic?
Toran_A_Sunder 01-06-08, 01:44 AM	This just occurred to me; how exactly does a prostitute reach epic? A more loaded question has never been asked on these boards, or any other :D
PenderGrass 01-06-08, 07:15 PM	This just occurred to me; how exactly does a prostitute reach epic? Epic *****s go to Hollywood and become movie stars. :dragon: *****
Necroramo 01-06-08, 09:14 PM	I think we are all overreacting! All the DM did to the girl was have one CR 20 monster attack her ECL 21-22 character, and it just got lucky. No intentional "I'm going to KILL HER NOW"
Ikeman04 01-06-08, 09:33 PM	Funny? Yes. Wrong? Also yes.
UAMDB 01-07-08, 09:50 AM	I don't know what happened but assume that the OP is asking a legitimate question and telling us events as he saw them. If you want to criticize things he said and did that's fine but you pretty much rewrote the event based on your own perceptions and assumptions. Yes I did rewrite the events according to my own perceptions. Why? Because what he was saying did not add up to me. I have worked in management for years, and have had to settle disputes between both co-workers, and customers. I have found that you have to hear both sides before you know what really happened. Also the truth is most times somewhere in the middle. The OP called her a Bi*$% both in character and out of character. The only justification he has given is out of character stuff. He has not once said what she was doing in character. My OPINION is that he does not like her personaly before the game even started. His comments like "I did not throw out to start with" show he did not want her there in the first place. Does he have a right to not allow someone to play for any reason? Yes he does. However, once he decides to allow that player to join even for the night, he does not have the right to hold it against that person. The OP, as it appears to me, used IC to solve OoC issues which almost everyone will tell you is a big no no. The OP held the Monster Manual, and basicly said "Stop or else" My words not his. She did not stop, so he made the have combat as a way to shut her up. I find it hard to believe that this happened this way DM: Dude, your character completely ruined my plans for tonight. Player1: Yeah it was cool. DM: I just going to kill your character. Female Player: EMO, EMO, EMO, EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMo, *Female PLayer keeps repeating this as others are speaking, even talking over them. DM: Stop calling me that. Female Player: EMO, EMO, EMO, EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMo, DM: *Hold MM up*, stop it or else. Female Player: EMO, EMO, EMO, EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMO,EMo, DM: Ok fine roll Int Female PLayer: *Calms down* I got a 18 for Int Am I the only that sees this as odd?
Toran_A_Sunder 01-07-08, 10:35 AM	Am I the only that sees this as odd? Are you the only one? No. Maybe it does seem a little odd, if you automatically believe that the OP is being deceitful or intentionally biased. (Just to point out, the OP did say he was a little biased because he doesn't like the girl in the first place.) But that doesn't mean he's lying about the events as they happened. It just colors his story a little. We've all had troublesome players before. Its a part of DMing, having to deal with those kinds of players. And while we all agree (even the OP) that his reaction of stop or I'll send a balor after you is definitely a DM No No, that doesn't mean other people should sit here and rewrite the situation as they think it happened. Sorry folks, it doesn't lend your opinions much weight when you are blatantly rewriting the scenario because you think this is what probably really happened, or you think this is what the OP really thinks about this girl or the friend or whatever. Again. Did the OP make a mistake? Yes. Should he hang for it? No, of course not. Some of you guys need to lay off him. Not a one of us, as DMs, picked up DMing and from our very first game made zero amounts of mistakes.
wrecan 01-07-08, 11:26 AM	This just occurred to me; how exactly does a prostitute reach epic? See Julia the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_the_Elder) (particularly as portrayed in I, Claudius)
UAMDB 01-07-08, 11:28 AM	Actually going back to my first post, which I just reread after a few days, what about my interputation is completely off base from the OP's version. I never said he was lying about what happened. I just feel we are not getting the whole truth of what happened. He has never said what she did to be a ***** either IC or OoC at the game. He examples of her being a bit$# was cheating on her boyfriends, and being a control freak. None of this according to the OP happened at the game. He even admitted that he does not like her, that affects his verson of what happened. Again I am not saying he is lying about what happened, but there is a difference between having a disscion with someone, and screaming at them. One person might say that they were having a discussion with another person, while the onther person would say that the first was screaming at them. Depending on who is telling the story the details get changed slightly. The over all truth is still there, and neither is considered lying because both believe they are telling the truth as they remember. Their perception of what happened is effected by their feels toward the other person. BTW: If she was openly cheating on her boyfriends and getting away with being a bi#$& at the game session by using sex I have one more question. Can I sit in the next time she plays with you? I will be quite and not "disturb" the game. I might have to change memory cards in my camera but thats it.
Toran_A_Sunder 01-07-08, 01:08 PM	I didn't mean to insinuate that you were the one being harshly unfair, UAMDB, and I appologize for doing so. Nor did I mean to insinuate that you had in anyway grossly misinterperated the OPs post. Truthfully, the only thing in my post directed at you was my response to what I quoted from you. Sorry for the mix-up :) Really the only point I'm trying to make, and again this isn't really directed at you UAMDB, is that a lot of people are being very much unfair and even insulting to the OP when, really, there is no call for it. We've all made our fair share of mistakes as DMs, and in no way are any of us in a position to sit on any sort of pedestal and look down with disdain on the OP for the mistake he made, and subsequently admitted to. The fact that the OP can sit there and say "Yea, you know, I really effed this one up" deserves at least a modicum of respect. And thats more than I an say for a lot of other people who will never willingly admit they made a mistake.
UAMDB 01-07-08, 02:18 PM	I didn't mean to insinuate that you were the one being harshly unfair, UAMDB, and I appologize for doing so. Nor did I mean to insinuate that you had in anyway grossly misinterperated the OPs post. Truthfully, the only thing in my post directed at you was my response to what I quoted from you. Sorry for the mix-up :) Really the only point I'm trying to make, and again this isn't really directed at you UAMDB, is that a lot of people are being very much unfair and even insulting to the OP when, really, there is no call for it. We've all made our fair share of mistakes as DMs, and in no way are any of us in a position to sit on any sort of pedestal and look down with disdain on the OP for the mistake he made, and subsequently admitted to. The fact that the OP can sit there and say "Yea, you know, I really effed this one up" deserves at least a modicum of respect. And thats more than I an say for a lot of other people who will never willingly admit they made a mistake. No offense taken. And I do agree that no DM is perfect. We have all made mistakes in the past, present, and yes even the future.
mtbOgre 01-07-08, 06:44 PM	Yes I did rewrite the events according to my own perceptions. Why? Because what he was saying did not add up to me. I have worked in management for years, and have had to settle disputes between both co-workers, and customers. I have found that you have to hear both sides before you know what really happened. Also the truth is most times somewhere in the middle. I don't doubt that there is more to events than what the OP said in his first post. That said, inventing your own version of events and making your judgments based on that isn't productive. OP asked about certain things he did, there was plenty to comment on without inventing additional details which are at guesswork and insulting to the OP to boot.
ravenshrike 01-07-08, 07:24 PM	Did the blackguard put crossclass ranks into UMD? Cause I'm not seeing how he summoned a flipping balor here.
LeeAlucard 01-07-08, 07:30 PM	Probably by the use of Rule 0.
Loftower 01-08-08, 12:23 AM	From my comfortable chair far away from the events, I can blame both the OP and the temporary player in question. Is that fair? No, probably not. To answer the direct questions directly: 1) I believe you were wrong. If I couldn’t wing a decent session after the PCs did something unexpected I would call the session at that point. I would also feel very badly about it because I take pride in having my contingencies covered. 2) When I was a very young DM I used encounters to punish people for being disruptive. It was a mistake. I learned from my mistakes and I do better now. So, I believe the OP should be sentenced to reading this thread. Following that, he can consider himself sufficiently punished for this minor infraction and move on. If you can’t be civil with someone for a few hours, don’t involve them in your D&D games. It doesn’t matter whose fault it is. As others have correctly posted, this is a game for fun. If you aren’t having fun, stop. I have done this in the past as well: called a session because I couldn’t deal with one of the people at the game. It turns out that was my fault and I have made corrections there also. Based on my own history, I recommend making peace. That person has been a player in my games for roughly 20 years now.
ToastedAmphibian 01-08-08, 12:46 AM	Did the blackguard put crossclass ranks into UMD? Cause I'm not seeing how he summoned a flipping balor here. A few possibilites. Braclet of Friends http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#braceletofFriends Iron Flask http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ironFlask Assuming the Black Gaurd was epic or close to it, he could possibly have Balor friends. Mabey they just owed him a favor. Mabey they serve the same master. Mabey teh balor was already on the same plane on vacation and felt like joining his buddie the BLack gaurd to behead the universes most powerfull prostitute. Note: for balance reasons id explain it with a braclet of Friends. You dont want your characters asking where the Flask went.
Jutter 01-08-08, 05:47 AM	One could of course count the blackguard and the balor as two seperate creatures when determining EL, treasure and XP. The fact that the blackguard 'summoned' the balor is flavor. You see a knight in black armor and a balor walking towards you. The moment they notice you, they roar in anger and attack. Meh. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is a knight in black armor. He appears to be talking in a small sort of box. "Roger that. Targets spotted 200 feet to my south. Drop Fluffy." A dark shadow blocks out the sun, and looking up you see a balor coming down on a parachute. An elemental powered gnome airship disappears over the horizon. Nah. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is the knight in black armor you met at the inn last night. The moment you notice him, he smiles. "I've been waiting for you, infidels. Asmodeus needs to see you punished for *insert previous quest here*." He makes a gesture you recognize as a summoning spell, while shouting "Indraxil, rip their living hearts out in honor of Asmodeus". Next to the blackguard appears a large demon. His roar shakes the countryside as the blackguard, once again, smiles. "Prepare to meet your creator, mortals". That could work. Would make for a nice epic sidequest as well, when the party tries to find out how they got an archfiend on their bad side. Or how a Balor ended up serving Asmodeus. Besides, the first player to ask how a blackguard can summon a demon gets hit with the rulebook he's so fond of (this is, of course, a matter of speech. Books are to expensive to hit players with). Unless he trained spellcraft, on which a DC 30 check (which he will probably make at epic levels) will get them "You know the black knights of hell are usually not capable of summoning such a powerful demon by themselves. You do know some ways to confer your own spells to other creatures for one-time use, and you can name several magic items capable of summoning demons." A DC 25 knowledge (the planes) check will get them "It is strange that a demon like this balor is allied with a black knight of hell. On the other hand, Asmodeus is an extremely powerful archfiend and the ruler of the nine hells of Baator".
UAMDB 01-08-08, 09:13 AM	One could of course count the blackguard and the balor as two seperate creatures when determining EL, treasure and XP. The fact that the blackguard 'summoned' the balor is flavor. You see a knight in black armor and a balor walking towards you. The moment they notice you, they roar in anger and attack. Meh. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is a knight in black armor. He appears to be talking in a small sort of box. "Roger that. Targets spotted 200 feet to my south. Drop Fluffy." A dark shadow blocks out the sun, and looking up you see a balor coming down on a parachute. An elemental powered gnome airship disappears over the horizon. Nah. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is the knight in black armor you met at the inn last night. The moment you notice him, he smiles. "I've been waiting for you, infidels. Asmodeus needs to see you punished for *insert previous quest here*." He makes a gesture you recognize as a summoning spell, while shouting "Indraxil, rip their living hearts out in honor of Asmodeus". Next to the blackguard appears a large demon. His roar shakes the countryside as the blackguard, once again, smiles. "Prepare to meet your creator, mortals". That could work. Would make for a nice epic sidequest as well, when the party tries to find out how they got an archfiend on their bad side. Or how a Balor ended up serving Asmodeus. Besides, the first player to ask how a blackguard can summon a demon gets hit with the rulebook he's so fond of (this is, of course, a matter of speech. Books are to expensive to hit players with). Unless he trained spellcraft, on which a DC 30 check (which he will probably make at epic levels) will get them "You know the black knights of hell are usually not capable of summoning such a powerful demon by themselves. You do know some ways to confer your own spells to other creatures for one-time use, and you can name several magic items capable of summoning demons." A DC 25 knowledge (the planes) check will get them "It is strange that a demon like this balor is allied with a black knight of hell. On the other hand, Asmodeus is an extremely powerful archfiend and the ruler of the nine hells of Baator". Don't go inventing what happened. Apparently its rude to the OP and does not contribute to the discussion. At least that is what some people on here think.
Jutter 01-08-08, 09:52 AM	Don't go inventing what happened. Apparently its rude to the OP and does not contribute to the discussion. At least that is what some people on here think. I assume that comment is more related to your previous discussion with mtbOgre than towards my post. Don't worry, I'll start dealing with the angry crowd as soon as it presents itself :) :hoppingma :hides:
UAMDB 01-08-08, 11:44 AM	I assume that comment is more related to your previous discussion with mtbOgre than towards my post. Don't worry, I'll start dealing with the angry crowd as soon as it presents itself :) :hoppingma :hides: Yes you are correct. I have no problem with your post. It was stated in jest, and a back handed comment at other posters. Hope I did not affend you.
ravenshrike 01-08-08, 01:20 PM	Probably by the use of Rule 0. True, but that means pretty specifically that the DM was in the wrong. Unless he already had the blackguard made up and somehow able to summon the balor, which given his use of the MM as a threat I highly doubt, he was the bigger *******. Combined with how it 'just happened' to appear next to her, and 'just happened' to subsequently roll a twenty and I'm feeling the need to put on my waders cause the ****'s getting high.
Linus 01-08-08, 03:42 PM	GAHHH!!!! Maybe Im getting old. Will someone please explain to me what the BLEEP "emo" is?
wrecan 01-08-08, 04:00 PM	On the internet, emo basically means angsty and whiny (and sometimes a little goth-y). ("Woe is me...")
DragonStrife 01-08-08, 04:15 PM	I'm sorry to say what you did wasn't the best thing, however, it's the thing I would have done if I didn't have earplugs or 2 litters of Mountain Dew. I by far love my MM more than any book, so I use it quite frequently. By the way how the heck is a prostitute any use in D&D? If she comes back, tell her to go away, but from the sounds of she won't be. General rule I DM by, if a player is distracting others from the game by degrading you kick them out of the game. It just distracts you and makes the game less enjoyable. you can even say "No ticket" if you want to lighten the mood.
ToastedAmphibian 01-08-08, 04:31 PM	One could of course count the blackguard and the balor as two seperate creatures when determining EL, treasure and XP. The fact that the blackguard 'summoned' the balor is flavor. You see a knight in black armor and a balor walking towards you. The moment they notice you, they roar in anger and attack. Meh. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is a knight in black armor. He appears to be talking in a small sort of box. "Roger that. Targets spotted 200 feet to my south. Drop Fluffy." A dark shadow blocks out the sun, and looking up you see a balor coming down on a parachute. An elemental powered gnome airship disappears over the horizon. Nah. Appearing on top of the hill in front of you is the knight in black armor you met at the inn last night. The moment you notice him, he smiles. "I've been waiting for you, infidels. Asmodeus needs to see you punished for *insert previous quest here*." He makes a gesture you recognize as a summoning spell, while shouting "Indraxil, rip their living hearts out in honor of Asmodeus". Next to the blackguard appears a large demon. His roar shakes the countryside as the blackguard, once again, smiles. "Prepare to meet your creator, mortals". That could work. Would make for a nice epic sidequest as well, when the party tries to find out how they got an archfiend on their bad side. Or how a Balor ended up serving Asmodeus. Besides, the first player to ask how a blackguard can summon a demon gets hit with the rulebook he's so fond of (this is, of course, a matter of speech. Books are to expensive to hit players with). Unless he trained spellcraft, on which a DC 30 check (which he will probably make at epic levels) will get them "You know the black knights of hell are usually not capable of summoning such a powerful demon by themselves. You do know some ways to confer your own spells to other creatures for one-time use, and you can name several magic items capable of summoning demons." A DC 25 knowledge (the planes) check will get them "It is strange that a demon like this balor is allied with a black knight of hell. On the other hand, Asmodeus is an extremely powerful archfiend and the ruler of the nine hells of Baator". No. I still say my answers are better. NPC's should not be able to do things PC's cant do. Not without a damn good reason (Like they are a race that none of the pcs are, like a Balor or something) Saying "Cause its cool" is not a good reason to blatantly break teh rules without explanation, for a player or a dm. When things happen without reasone it reuins teh versimu.... whatever. Anywyas, cheating should be saved for important things, and shouldnt be wasted on making characters (NPCs or PCs) more powerfull. Thats what rules lawyering is for.
EaterOfTheDead 01-08-08, 08:12 PM	is her name jenn and a major pot head, because i seriously think i know this girl LOL Hmm, the whole time I thought he was talking about Tracy...
navar100 01-09-08, 02:10 AM	I'm sorry to say what you did wasn't the best thing, however, it's the thing I would have done if I didn't have earplugs or 2 litters of Mountain Dew. I by far love my MM more than any book, so I use it quite frequently. By the way how the heck is a prostitute any use in D&D? If she comes back, tell her to go away, but from the sounds of she won't be. General rule I DM by, if a player is distracting others from the game by degrading you kick them out of the game. It just distracts you and makes the game less enjoyable. you can even say "No ticket" if you want to lighten the mood. :D
CroBob 01-09-08, 03:30 AM	This just occurred to me; how exactly does a prostitute reach epic? The same way a blacksmith does; Doing things besides the trade.
Jutter 01-09-08, 06:05 AM	No. I still say my answers are better. NPC's should not be able to do things PC's cant do. Not without a damn good reason (Like they are a race that none of the pcs are, like a Balor or something) Saying "Cause its cool" is not a good reason to blatantly break teh rules without explanation, for a player or a dm. When things happen without reasone it reuins teh versimu.... whatever. Anywyas, cheating should be saved for important things, and shouldnt be wasted on making characters (NPCs or PCs) more powerfull. Thats what rules lawyering is for. I completely agree that defining a magic item used for the summoning is the 'better' method, and absolutely preferable. But when you're winging it, I believe (underlined for being a personal opinion) it's better to get along with it than to say to your group "Hang on, I thought up this random encounter with a blackguard, and I need to check on some of his magic items." You are, of course, free not to share that opinion. I do advise anybody who can come up with a good item from the top of his head to use it. I'm just offering another solution for those who can't.
dawnbringer 01-09-08, 09:46 AM	True, but that means pretty specifically that the DM was in the wrong. Unless he already had the blackguard made up and somehow able to summon the balor, which given his use of the MM as a threat I highly doubt, he was the bigger *******. Combined with how it 'just happened' to appear next to her, and 'just happened' to subsequently roll a twenty and I'm feeling the need to put on my waders cause the ****'s getting high. It didn't 'Just happen' to appear next to her, he rolled a % dice openly in front of the players and because of the result it appeared next to her. And he didn't 'just happen' to roll a twenty, he rolled openly in front of the players and the result was 20. You really should read these posts more.....
DragonStrife 01-09-08, 03:04 PM	Hey, I go with the dice gods say. I don't want to be playing in another DM's game and roll oodles of ones for my attack rolls. Plus I've manged to roll natural 20's for the first time, twice in a row. Stuff happens. Plus, I've rolled natural 20's twice in a row before. :P
ravenshrike 01-09-08, 07:13 PM	It didn't 'Just happen' to appear next to her, he rolled a % dice openly in front of the players and because of the result it appeared next to her. And he didn't 'just happen' to roll a twenty, he rolled openly in front of the players and the result was 20. And what summon spell do you know of which randomly determines the position of incoming Balor? Assuming the blackguard is at all competent(an assumption I'm gonna have to make since he's epic) he would know at least a little about the folk he's facing. Which means that unless he wanted his ass handed to him, he damned well would have sent the Balor after the opponent he deemed most dangerous. Moreover, the Balor itself has an Int and Wis of 24. Assuming it was acting on it's own, it would have immediately charged the character it deemed the most threat(Probably the wizard type). Given the description of her character, that clearly was not the PC in question.
Exposed_Wires 01-09-08, 07:35 PM	That's a lot of assuming. How does anybody summon a Balor? Maybe the blackguard has some levels in some other class. Maybe he didn't even summon it. They could've been roomies in super evil college and all he did was give his balor buddy a ring. Then he showed up on the material plane. What kind of evil creature wouldn't just throttle the first person that appeared in front of it? People have already given plenty of reasons why it could have been there. The best one being rule '0'. I'm not even sure why you're arguing rules. This is an issue with the DM losing his cool, not that he wasn't playing the game exactly right.
CroBob 01-09-08, 11:56 PM	What kind of evil creature wouldn't just throttle the first person that appeared in front of it? The kind that didn't care enough to, or the kind that wanted to avoid a fight, or the kind who wanted to fight smart. Perhaps one of those.