Alter Self and Improved invisibility. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self and Improved invisibility. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fanatic24
01-31-07, 12:03 AM Hi guys I'm in dire need of some help here to combat a tactic one of my PC's use which so far has me troubled. Now I'm not looking for a particular way but rather to dull its potency all up.

lvl 7 campaign and this wizard has a tendancy to cast alter self and give himself wings, then cast greater invisibility. This tends to dull some of the more... cinematic events that happen to the party: such as climbing a narrow cliff slope while under a barrage of missile fire, fighting in an arena ( he flew, invis'd and the combat couldn't end as he ran out of spells) and most recently in a plot device (a bad guy bullrushed 2 of them off a tower where a celestial with wings was supposed to save them but he managed to dimension door away.

Now antimagic and true sight would work best that i can think of but I don't want to scrap his abilities just limit them to situations which won't automatically best challenges at every turn. I've recently turned to using undead to negate invisibility, but there's not exactly that many flying, and some of the laid out "scenes" must be outside.
Dragonsblood
01-31-07, 12:54 AM Sounds to me like you want to railroad your PCs.
fatal error
01-31-07, 12:58 AM Don't design encounters entailing the wizard cooperating. Push two other characters off the tower. Force the rest of th party to climb up a cliff while being shot at. Sure, the wizard will be around, but having one character avoid the obstacle doesn't mean everyone else gets by free.

As for dealing with it, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and quite a few things either have alternative vision or some form of the spell innately, depending on their CR. Plus, See Invisibility coupled with Dispel Magic should prove a bit of a hassle once in a while.
Kusari_Gamer
01-31-07, 01:00 AM See the above post for my opinion.
ressurrector
01-31-07, 01:22 AM Glitterdust, bags of flour, listen checks, spot checks (by rules invis grants +20 bonus to hide checks, +40 if still and not attacking IIRC).

Invisibility purge (spell)
area effect spells (targeted on where his attacks/spells come from)
Intelligent opponants (will assume him to be in or near last observed position, or position where his spell effects come from)
Fanatic24
01-31-07, 01:51 AM Thanks guys (except dragonsblood :\ ). Completely forgot about see invisibility.
MareltEkiran
01-31-07, 01:54 AM Just curious? What shape gives a wizard wings for Alter Self?
ArcTan
01-31-07, 03:22 AM Probably a raptoran, from Races of the Wild.
ressurrector
01-31-07, 03:37 AM Or an avariel from PGTF, or the DM could be allowing the 3.0 alter self, which allowed set modifications, instead of a polymorph-like effect.
enlightened
01-31-07, 07:31 AM I've recently turned to using undead to negate invisibility

What makes you think that undead can innately see invisibility?

You should read this:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html

Also, it sounds like whenever you make an encounter you have a specific way that you want them to overcome it or a specific thing that you want to happen (fall and then be saved by a flying solar, etc)........that's called railroading.
redhase
01-31-07, 09:03 AM I looked in the races of the wild and all the wing spells you must have wing first, so the character proubality use the alter self to grow wings or one of the Averial spells to grow magical wings.

Still there is another spell you as dm can use every so often to make the character think, from the spell compendium page 140: wingbind; 4th level sor/wiz spell that makes a magical net ensnaring the winged creature and they fall to the ground, if they fail their saving throw.
Used along with the see invisiblity spell would make the character think.

You don't want to discourage the player just make them think is all. by what I mean to make them think is this: that other creatures and wizards or sorcerer's have spells that could counter their alter self and invisibility spells. Don't discourage your player just let them think of new ways to use their spells in ways that they would not normally use.
(that is a good combination to use by the way.)

Is the player using the "Flight of the dragon" (witch also grows a pair of dragon wings 4th level ) spell from the spell compendium , also?

Another option for you Fanatic24, if you don't have the spell compendium to view the spell "wingbind" I think someone would be willing to send a copy to you.
Comus
01-31-07, 09:21 AM Sounds to me like you want to railroad your PCs.
I'm kinda with him on this one. While I don't have enough information to make a real assessment of the situation, the fact that you're looking for a way to shut him down when it appears he's just using his spells in the typical wizard playstyle tells me that either...

A) You have never had to deal with someone playing a halfway competent full casting class, and thus don't know how to challenge him appropriately.

or, and this seems more likely given the examples...

B) You have never had to deal with someone who had the smarts to go around a problem instead of straight through it, and you aren't good at adjusting plans and changing the storyline based on character interactions.
rkr1970
01-31-07, 12:50 PM It sounds as if he's simply using his spells in the most advantageous way possible under the current circumstances. D-Dooring, flying, etc. are all common tactics for a mobility specialist mage. My suggestion is to allow the player to continue in the manner he's going, especially if he's tailoring his response to the threat. However, everyone who plays a character needs to learn sooner or later that repeating tactics over and over leads to complacency and eventual disaster.

I have seen several PCs die because they were always turning invisible. Area of effect spells still hit them, but if they drop below 0 hp, there is no reason that they should turn visible, thus making it hard for their allies to know the rogue or wizard are dying or even where they are.

As for flying spellcasters... Yeouch!!! They're just begging to be dropped by enemy ranged attacks. With an average party, the enemy normally only has clear shots at the front liners, with the softer targets using the tanks as cover. With a flying mage, the enemy has a clear shot at the unarmored magical threat.

But try to remember that these should be the "natural" consequences of his tactics, not things you haul out to punish him. That area of effect spell should be aimed at the center of the greatest concentration of visible opponents, NOT off to the right just enough to catch the mage too. Only creatures with Int scores above 7 should recognize the flying mage as a major threat, NOT every critter the party ever runs across.
Some_call_me_Tim
01-31-07, 01:33 PM This may sound silly but are you giving the guy benefits of greater invisibility? It's all good to fly away and hide, but as soon as he casts he becomes visible and there should be several enemies targeting him with either readied or delayed actions. A simple glitterdust is the bane of a flying, fireballing mage.

Don't begrudge him using a spell to save his own bacon instead of relying on an NPC; can we all say deus ex machina.
penchant
01-31-07, 02:31 PM The simple fact is, that 5th level and beyond you have to deal with the flying/invisible mage. While there are many counters to the effect as stated above, you can't be upset that he is trying it. Its not even so original. The perilous cliff is a low level staple.

What happens when the whole party dimension doors to the top? At 7th level he could get the party in maybe 2-3 trips.

IF you want to make it a big deal for a level or two you can use weather conditions that make the wizard not be able to fly. This will also increase the climb DC for the party as well.

At higher levels, use intermittent dead magic zones. If you must
Necrosis
01-31-07, 03:24 PM I agree intellgiant oppents are still a probelm for thsi wizard, spells like web are also nasty on wings :). There are some very good simple options for opponents-such as "readying a glitter dust when I next hear casting!", ranged attacks targetted at vocal compoennts are also equally fun :).
perdera
01-31-07, 03:30 PM Fly/Invisibility are the staples of Wizard survivability. If you want to challenge them now and then have some of your enemies have See Invis potions (easy for you to just cheat on the fly and have them pull one out if you must) or have an enemy cleric walking around with Invisibility Purge...the area is HUGE...then throw Glitterdust or Faerie Fire so everyone else can see 'em.

Make sure to throw Flying/Invisible Wizards at them too...a nice obnoxious Flying/Invisible Wizard using Summon spells that don't break Invisibility is particularly funny.
Some_call_me_Tim
01-31-07, 04:11 PM I agree intellgiant oppents are still a probelm for thsi wizard, spells like web are also nasty on wings :).The problem with that is the requirement for two opposing anchor points, not very likely outdoors. I always thought that it should be able to function more like a net in such a cases, snaring flying creatures.
Dragonsblood
01-31-07, 05:08 PM Thanks guys (except dragonsblood :\ ). Completely forgot about see invisibility.

lol what can I say? Sometimes people don't like to hear the truth.

I'll try to be a little more helpful. You need to stop looking for ways to stop the wizard every time and instead retool your encounters and plot devices with the player's tactics in mind. It will come across as very contrived if every monster can see invisibility or carries around a bag of flour. Keep in mind that wizards can only cast their spells a certain number of times per day - maybe your problem is that you just need to introduce more encounters before the party rests. If a wizard can unload all of his spells in a single encounter he's going to cause a lot more problems for the DM than if he knows he needs to conserve spells for later on. Maybe more encounters should be in dungeons or dense trees where flying is not an option and there's less space for an invisible wizard to hide. Maybe your encounters need to vary in size; one or two large guys can be taken down quicker than lots of little guys, despite having the same CR. If it takes longer to finish a fight, the wizard's imp invis is going to expire.
Necrosis
01-31-07, 05:20 PM The problem with that is the requirement for two opposing anchor points, not very likely outdoors. I always thought that it should be able to function more like a net in such a cases, snaring flying creatures.

well 2 wings are 2 opposing points :), try flying when you can't flap!

p.s. area dispels would also be a common tactic to employ against an annyoign wizard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fanatic24 01-31-07, 12:03 AM	Hi guys I'm in dire need of some help here to combat a tactic one of my PC's use which so far has me troubled. Now I'm not looking for a particular way but rather to dull its potency all up. lvl 7 campaign and this wizard has a tendancy to cast alter self and give himself wings, then cast greater invisibility. This tends to dull some of the more... cinematic events that happen to the party: such as climbing a narrow cliff slope while under a barrage of missile fire, fighting in an arena ( he flew, invis'd and the combat couldn't end as he ran out of spells) and most recently in a plot device (a bad guy bullrushed 2 of them off a tower where a celestial with wings was supposed to save them but he managed to dimension door away. Now antimagic and true sight would work best that i can think of but I don't want to scrap his abilities just limit them to situations which won't automatically best challenges at every turn. I've recently turned to using undead to negate invisibility, but there's not exactly that many flying, and some of the laid out "scenes" must be outside.
Dragonsblood 01-31-07, 12:54 AM	Sounds to me like you want to railroad your PCs.
fatal error 01-31-07, 12:58 AM	Don't design encounters entailing the wizard cooperating. Push two other characters off the tower. Force the rest of th party to climb up a cliff while being shot at. Sure, the wizard will be around, but having one character avoid the obstacle doesn't mean everyone else gets by free. As for dealing with it, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and quite a few things either have alternative vision or some form of the spell innately, depending on their CR. Plus, See Invisibility coupled with Dispel Magic should prove a bit of a hassle once in a while.
Kusari_Gamer 01-31-07, 01:00 AM	See the above post for my opinion.
ressurrector 01-31-07, 01:22 AM	Glitterdust, bags of flour, listen checks, spot checks (by rules invis grants +20 bonus to hide checks, +40 if still and not attacking IIRC). Invisibility purge (spell) area effect spells (targeted on where his attacks/spells come from) Intelligent opponants (will assume him to be in or near last observed position, or position where his spell effects come from)
Fanatic24 01-31-07, 01:51 AM	Thanks guys (except dragonsblood :\ ). Completely forgot about see invisibility.
MareltEkiran 01-31-07, 01:54 AM	Just curious? What shape gives a wizard wings for Alter Self?
ArcTan 01-31-07, 03:22 AM	Probably a raptoran, from Races of the Wild.
ressurrector 01-31-07, 03:37 AM	Or an avariel from PGTF, or the DM could be allowing the 3.0 alter self, which allowed set modifications, instead of a polymorph-like effect.
enlightened 01-31-07, 07:31 AM	I've recently turned to using undead to negate invisibility What makes you think that undead can innately see invisibility? You should read this: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html Also, it sounds like whenever you make an encounter you have a specific way that you want them to overcome it or a specific thing that you want to happen (fall and then be saved by a flying solar, etc)........that's called railroading.
redhase 01-31-07, 09:03 AM	I looked in the races of the wild and all the wing spells you must have wing first, so the character proubality use the alter self to grow wings or one of the Averial spells to grow magical wings. Still there is another spell you as dm can use every so often to make the character think, from the spell compendium page 140: wingbind; 4th level sor/wiz spell that makes a magical net ensnaring the winged creature and they fall to the ground, if they fail their saving throw. Used along with the see invisiblity spell would make the character think. You don't want to discourage the player just make them think is all. by what I mean to make them think is this: that other creatures and wizards or sorcerer's have spells that could counter their alter self and invisibility spells. Don't discourage your player just let them think of new ways to use their spells in ways that they would not normally use. (that is a good combination to use by the way.) Is the player using the "Flight of the dragon" (witch also grows a pair of dragon wings 4th level ) spell from the spell compendium , also? Another option for you Fanatic24, if you don't have the spell compendium to view the spell "wingbind" I think someone would be willing to send a copy to you.
Comus 01-31-07, 09:21 AM	Sounds to me like you want to railroad your PCs. I'm kinda with him on this one. While I don't have enough information to make a real assessment of the situation, the fact that you're looking for a way to shut him down when it appears he's just using his spells in the typical wizard playstyle tells me that either... A) You have never had to deal with someone playing a halfway competent full casting class, and thus don't know how to challenge him appropriately. or, and this seems more likely given the examples... B) You have never had to deal with someone who had the smarts to go around a problem instead of straight through it, and you aren't good at adjusting plans and changing the storyline based on character interactions.
rkr1970 01-31-07, 12:50 PM	It sounds as if he's simply using his spells in the most advantageous way possible under the current circumstances. D-Dooring, flying, etc. are all common tactics for a mobility specialist mage. My suggestion is to allow the player to continue in the manner he's going, especially if he's tailoring his response to the threat. However, everyone who plays a character needs to learn sooner or later that repeating tactics over and over leads to complacency and eventual disaster. I have seen several PCs die because they were always turning invisible. Area of effect spells still hit them, but if they drop below 0 hp, there is no reason that they should turn visible, thus making it hard for their allies to know the rogue or wizard are dying or even where they are. As for flying spellcasters... Yeouch!!! They're just begging to be dropped by enemy ranged attacks. With an average party, the enemy normally only has clear shots at the front liners, with the softer targets using the tanks as cover. With a flying mage, the enemy has a clear shot at the unarmored magical threat. But try to remember that these should be the "natural" consequences of his tactics, not things you haul out to punish him. That area of effect spell should be aimed at the center of the greatest concentration of visible opponents, NOT off to the right just enough to catch the mage too. Only creatures with Int scores above 7 should recognize the flying mage as a major threat, NOT every critter the party ever runs across.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-31-07, 01:33 PM	This may sound silly but are you giving the guy benefits of greater invisibility? It's all good to fly away and hide, but as soon as he casts he becomes visible and there should be several enemies targeting him with either readied or delayed actions. A simple glitterdust is the bane of a flying, fireballing mage. Don't begrudge him using a spell to save his own bacon instead of relying on an NPC; can we all say deus ex machina.
penchant 01-31-07, 02:31 PM	The simple fact is, that 5th level and beyond you have to deal with the flying/invisible mage. While there are many counters to the effect as stated above, you can't be upset that he is trying it. Its not even so original. The perilous cliff is a low level staple. What happens when the whole party dimension doors to the top? At 7th level he could get the party in maybe 2-3 trips. IF you want to make it a big deal for a level or two you can use weather conditions that make the wizard not be able to fly. This will also increase the climb DC for the party as well. At higher levels, use intermittent dead magic zones. If you must
Necrosis 01-31-07, 03:24 PM	I agree intellgiant oppents are still a probelm for thsi wizard, spells like web are also nasty on wings :). There are some very good simple options for opponents-such as "readying a glitter dust when I next hear casting!", ranged attacks targetted at vocal compoennts are also equally fun :).
perdera 01-31-07, 03:30 PM	Fly/Invisibility are the staples of Wizard survivability. If you want to challenge them now and then have some of your enemies have See Invis potions (easy for you to just cheat on the fly and have them pull one out if you must) or have an enemy cleric walking around with Invisibility Purge...the area is HUGE...then throw Glitterdust or Faerie Fire so everyone else can see 'em. Make sure to throw Flying/Invisible Wizards at them too...a nice obnoxious Flying/Invisible Wizard using Summon spells that don't break Invisibility is particularly funny.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-31-07, 04:11 PM	I agree intellgiant oppents are still a probelm for thsi wizard, spells like web are also nasty on wings :).The problem with that is the requirement for two opposing anchor points, not very likely outdoors. I always thought that it should be able to function more like a net in such a cases, snaring flying creatures.
Dragonsblood 01-31-07, 05:08 PM	Thanks guys (except dragonsblood :\ ). Completely forgot about see invisibility. lol what can I say? Sometimes people don't like to hear the truth. I'll try to be a little more helpful. You need to stop looking for ways to stop the wizard every time and instead retool your encounters and plot devices with the player's tactics in mind. It will come across as very contrived if every monster can see invisibility or carries around a bag of flour. Keep in mind that wizards can only cast their spells a certain number of times per day - maybe your problem is that you just need to introduce more encounters before the party rests. If a wizard can unload all of his spells in a single encounter he's going to cause a lot more problems for the DM than if he knows he needs to conserve spells for later on. Maybe more encounters should be in dungeons or dense trees where flying is not an option and there's less space for an invisible wizard to hide. Maybe your encounters need to vary in size; one or two large guys can be taken down quicker than lots of little guys, despite having the same CR. If it takes longer to finish a fight, the wizard's imp invis is going to expire.
Necrosis 01-31-07, 05:20 PM	The problem with that is the requirement for two opposing anchor points, not very likely outdoors. I always thought that it should be able to function more like a net in such a cases, snaring flying creatures. well 2 wings are 2 opposing points :), try flying when you can't flap! p.s. area dispels would also be a common tactic to employ against an annyoign wizard.