Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thulsa Doom 11-12-05, 05:05 PM	Okay, need some help clearing this up now... One of my players is a cleric with a 1/day Alter self amulet, and he thinks that shiny full plate+2 of his ain't enough protection so he devised how to get an even better AC-alter into a troglodyte for that nifty +6 natural armor... We're playing 3.5 so in the spell description it says that if the carried equipment can be used/carried by the new form it stays on, otherwise, it melds in the new form... So, if he alters into a troglodyte his human-based plate isn't usable by the new form because the ability of magic armor to slightly resize for a new wearer doesn't work if it has to change its entire design ( for a troglodyte-change the entire leg section and also there should be a hole for the tail which should also be plated-it is FULL plate, after all... :D ). Also, the boots-can't imagine troglodytes wearing human footwear, unless maybe flip-flops... As for the rings, cloaks, amulets and some other items the troglodyte's fingers,neck,etc. aren't so dissimilar from a human's so I guess they should/could be used in the new form... Please post your opinions so that when he tries to pull that off I have some people sharing my opinion on this....THX!!!
hammer_hand 11-12-05, 05:09 PM	I think you're right, the armour can't alter its entire design but as for the boots I do think you're trying to use an archetype to get out of a potentially overpowering situation were you should be finding a plausible one or lat it lie as a canny idea and nothing more.
Mogofeiden 11-12-05, 05:20 PM	Hi all, Has the pc ever faced a troglodyte? Has he, at least, succeded in an apropriate knowledge check? If not, then don't allow it as the pc doesn't know what a troglodyte is. Otherwise allow it, or you'll just be nitpicking and any decision you take will come back to haunt you. Regards
Thulsa Doom 11-12-05, 05:38 PM	He has met a troglodyte and all-he stripped him of his skeleton for "observational purposes", if you get my drift... And as for the overpowering situation it is kinda true because he is a power-player and if he doesn't have an AC 32 before combat ( lvl 8 by the way... ) and two hill giant skeletons by his side he ain't doing nothing, and if he does he greatly outpowers the rest of the party who are just playing for the fun of it :mad: So, I have to find those tricky CR 9 monsters that are really tough because he can dispatch of a regular CR 10 monster only by himself ( and his two hill giant buddies, of course...) I really don't wanna ruin it for the rest of them and I also don't wanna prevent him from doing something if he can do it according to the rules. So what I really need is a solid reason to tell nim NO WAY... C'mon guys gimme one...please ??? :(
Moon-Lancer 11-12-05, 06:02 PM	I would try to disarm or sunder his item that lets him use alter self. I think he is within the rules though. alter self minimum caster level is 3. Thats 30 minits of alter self. Thats not alot of time. Its enuff for one combat but not for two probably unless they are back to back. spred out combat and he wont beable to use alterself for the other combats.
FriendoftheDork 11-12-05, 06:26 PM	Not sure if any core item allows that spell. And even though there are rules for making such an item it is always up to the DM to allow it or not. Regardless the armor does not fit the new form obviously so you're quite right in disallowing it. It will still be a really good spell, one that worked perfect for my wizard as I made myself into a Kuo-Toa. Note that Trogs do stink.. does he really want to be like that? And the party members will be making saves to resist his stink so there are drawbacks to being a trog.
Mogofeiden 11-12-05, 06:28 PM	You're in trouble then, 'cause he'll find ways to powercharge his pc. You know you've got a powergamer, then you give(?) him an amulet of alterself and have him meet a troglodyte. You know you brought this on yourself. Anyway... 1) sunder his item. Easiest option, but likely to annoy the player. 2) Challenge him with opponents that don't need to hit his AC. And destroy, turn or rebuke those giants ASAP. 3) Play your monsters with the cunning they deserve. Although it might be hard if you're playing monster-in-a-box (which requires monsters to be suicidal), in that case use elite array and max hp for the monster(s) that targets that pc. 4) DM always loses, thats ok, as long as it's done in style. If the player has the luxury of deciding when he's pc fights then you're being too nice.
Edymnion 11-12-05, 06:51 PM	Grapple him.
Saabre 11-12-05, 06:52 PM	actually the alter self spell won't allow him to change into a Troglodyte because it says, "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal type." Since a Troglodyte is a monstrous humanoid he can't change into unless for some reason his character is already a monstrous humanoid. But most likely he is a humanoid which means that he can only change into other humanoid creatures.
allenchan 11-12-05, 07:20 PM	Becoming a troglodyte is in no way broken, imo, its just common sense. Same with turning into an aquatic elf or an avariel.
FriendoftheDork 11-12-05, 07:20 PM	actually the alter self spell won't allow him to change into a Troglodyte because it says, "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal type." Since a Troglodyte is a monstrous humanoid he can't change into unless for some reason his character is already a monstrous humanoid. But most likely he is a humanoid which means that he can only change into other humanoid creatures. Ahhh im too naive!
allenchan 11-12-05, 07:25 PM	Look at that. You nailed it. Trogs are not monstrous humanoids. Troglodyte Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Reptilian) Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) or claw +1 melee (1d4) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6) Full Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) and claw -1 melee (1d4) and bite -1 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4) and bite -1 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Stench Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft. Saves: Fort +5, Ref -1, Will +0 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10 Skills: Hide +5*, Listen +3 Feats: MultiattackB, Weapon Focus (javelin) Environment: Underground Organization: Clutch (2-5), squad (6-11 plus 1-2 monitor lizards), or band (20-80 plus 20% noncombatants plus 3-13 monitor lizards) Challenge Rating: 1 Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items Alignment: Usually chaotic evil Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +2
Habronicus 11-12-05, 07:26 PM	One of my players is a cleric with a 1/day Alter self amulet, and he thinks that shiny full plate+2 of his ain't enough protection so he devised how to get an even better AC-alter into a troglodyte for that nifty +6 natural armor... <SNIP> As for the rings, cloaks, amulets and some other items the troglodyte's fingers,neck,etc. aren't so dissimilar from a human's so I guess they should/could be used in the new form... What I'd like to know is how the heck a level 8 Cleric got access to a Full Plate +2, an Amulet that casts Alter Self 1/Day, and apparently also has "rings, cloaks, amulets and some other items". I'm getting the feeling your player is a Power Gamer because you're running a Monty Haul. Anyway, as Saabre pointed out, I'm not sure such a transformation is possible. While the Troglodyte is a Medium Humanoid, it's subtype is Reptilian so, according to the spell description, that sounds like enough grounds to not allow it.
Always-Late 11-12-05, 07:27 PM	Becoming a troglodyte is in no way broken, imo, its just common sense. Same with turning into an aquatic elf or an avariel.Then why would anyone ever use fly when they could alter self?
allenchan 11-12-05, 07:33 PM	Then why would anyone every use fly when they could alter self? They wouldn't, except in rare circumstances such as what if you want to be a trog that flies? Fly can also affect others, while Alter Self is Personal. Or you want/need to look like you true self (or the obvious other factor being that races of faerun isnt allowed). Anyway, as Saabre pointed out, I'm not sure such a transformation is possible. While the Troglodyte is a Medium Humanoid, it's subtype is Reptilian so, according to the spell description, that sounds like enough grounds to not allow it. Dwarve are Humanoid (Dwarf). Humans are Humanoid (Human). If what you said were true, you could only turn into other creatures of the same race as you. Type and subtype are clearly defined.
Saabre 11-12-05, 07:44 PM	Trogs are not monstrous humanoids. oops my bad. I misread it
Habronicus 11-12-05, 07:45 PM	Dwarve are Humanoid (Dwarf). Humans are Humanoid (Human). If what you said were true, you could only turn into other creatures of the same race as you. Type and subtype are clearly defined. True, but I'm referring to the section that says, and I quote: Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form Which means that even if his player takes on the shape of a Reptilian creature, his magical armor doesn't necessarily has to adapt to Reptilian form (with tail and the works). The armor may adapt to size, but not shape. Understand?
Always-Late 11-12-05, 08:04 PM	One more reason to play a kobold.
Terraneaux 11-12-05, 08:36 PM	I'm actually currently playing a character who uses this little trick, and overall its pretty effective. Here's what you get: +6 Natural Armor Claw/Claw/Bite routine, and the multiattack feat for free +4 to hide, or +8 if in rocky surroundings By RAW you do get the stench ability, but my dm ruled that since smell is caused by bits of you floating off and getting in their nose, i still smell human. Fine by me. There's this monster called the greater doppelganger, i think it's in monsters of faerun and/or mmII, it has this ability to deal ridiculous damage to someone under the effects of a shapechanging effect, which includes alter self. I had the misfortune to run into one of those last session, and if it weren't for our rogue who is an excellent blender I would have gone down hard. Also grapples work pretty well, as do touch attacks.
Dragonsblood 11-12-05, 08:47 PM	It's only once a day. If you're running 4 or 5 encounters a day, this item isn't all that overpowered. +6 natural armor also only helps against melee attacks - spells and touch attacks bypass it.
StormCrow42 11-12-05, 11:04 PM	Then why would anyone ever use fly when they could alter self? Because the only winged humanoid race is some flying elf race from Forgotten Realms. If you're not playing a FR campaign there isn't anything to alter self into that can fly.
Phrennzy 11-12-05, 11:09 PM	Yeah, I would think the duration for this trick really limits it. How long can it last? One fight? Big deal. The trog can wear the armor - it shapes to him just fine. Don't go down that path. Pay attention to the clock. When his time is out, it's out. And as always, don't use one single high CR monster - use multiple lower-CR monsters. More is better. Instead of CR 10, use 2 x 8, or 4 x 6.
Moon-Lancer 11-12-05, 11:20 PM	also, the effect is realy suseptible to dispell. you only need to beat a 14. any caster of level 8 would only need to role a 6. not bad.
Edymnion 11-13-05, 12:46 AM	Because the only winged humanoid race is some flying elf race from Forgotten Realms. If you're not playing a FR campaign there isn't anything to alter self into that can fly.Despite the fact that the horribly beaten and abused spell that is Alter Self 3.5 still specifically mentions the ability to Fly in the spell description. Much better to just use 3.0's Alter Self. 3.0 Fly too...
Evil Glowstick 11-13-05, 12:58 AM	Use mages. AoE spells and touch attacks/spells. use a nother cleric to maybe turn his hill giant friends agains him :evillaugh
TheCarrionCrawler 11-13-05, 02:37 AM	Because the only winged humanoid race is some flying elf race from Forgotten Realms. If you're not playing a FR campaign there isn't anything to alter self into that can fly. Raptorans from Races of the Wild.
20goingon1232 11-13-05, 03:37 AM	To the OP: First, what he did is fully legit. Magical armour in 3.5 no longer resize, IIRC. But it DOES adjust within the size category. This means that if he does not change SIZE, he is fine. The armour works. Second, Trogs are Humanoids. They are one of two races commonly changed into by people with Alter Self (the other is Lizardman/folk). So, yes, he can use that platemail. That is not the question. The question is, why in the name of all that is holy did you give Alter Self to a class that CAN use armour? But I digress. All I can say is that you made your bed. Now sleep in it. Your player is fully within his rights to do what he is doing. It is strictly RAW. Any attempts to neuter this with contrived rulings and "incidences" only proves your incompetences as a DM. If I were you, TALK to the player and explain to him your reservations and ask (NOT demand) that he accept another item in exchange. He is well within his rights to refuse, so don't get pissy if he does. And don't do the above "incidences" either. You will only **** your players off. The ones advicing you to use such contrived notions are pretty socially inept. You do NOT want to be one of them. Remember, DnD is a GAME first, and a theatre second. Your friends are worth more than a stupid story, no matter how good you think it is. It usually is not as good as you think it is.
Thulsa Doom 11-13-05, 05:05 AM	First, thanks for the input....didn't realize this subject was so actual... Okay now, I'll try to defend myself for a moment ;) : The items in question weren't given to them ( c'mon who would give a once/day alter self amulet-that would make the rogue's dusguise skill take a punch ), they were created by the party wizard...he got a full plate+1 at lvl 6 and then he enchanted it to get another +1 ( additional 1500gp and 60 XP ). As for the amulet there is the craft wondrous item feat and a very simple formula ( for 1/day alter self , for example: for the "command word" item: spell level*caster level*1800 ---- 2*3*1800=10800 and with one charge per day, that means divide by 5 divided by charges per day ( here 1 ) so that means 10800 / ( 5/1 )= 2160... So the crafting price is 1080 gp and 87 XP which is REALLY a puny sum for an 8th level character... And as for the rings and cloaks they are the standard low-level giveaways ( protection+1; resistance+1 )... Grappling is also a bad choice-he has 4-th level spells.....freedom of movement sound familiar? Sundering would be okay once, but what do you think he would do the next time they enter a city after the sundering, that is, what would his wizard friend do??? Also, sundering is reserved for skilled fighters, not INT 6 monsters... Even if a monster had imp.sunder and liked to sunder stuff, how would he know what to sunder? The clearest choice is the weapon, armor or shield, not some small amulet... The only "clean" way of countering it is a targeted dispel but that would mean a monster with 5 caster levels... And if they are in a dungeon with let's say Dracotaurs ( MM3 ; CR 3 ) that guy would be their boss or the main villain so they get to him after they slaughter the entire dungeon-only he can cast dispel... And for those foot-soldiers what chance do they have against an AC of 32? I'm not trying to punish my players so they have to enter every dungeon three times in order to clear it but what I do want is for them to break a sweat-not just rampage through them like they aren't there only to get to the boss...and all of you must admit that magic-using creatures are in minority to the muscle and damage dealing ones... There is some of you who are against and some who are for so I guess it's one of those times when I can't blame it on the crowd ;) :rolleyes:
StormCrow42 11-13-05, 12:12 PM	Raptorans from Races of the Wild. They don't get flight until they reach 5 HD and since you alter self into the base form of a creature (1 HD), arguably the best you'll get is their glide ability. Additionally both their flight and glide abilities are "ex" abilities, so I'm not certain you'd even get that. They don't have a fly speed listed in their stat block (of course they don't even have a stat block anywhere that I've seen).
Nitan 11-13-05, 01:18 PM	So...your Cleric can get +6 Natural Armor for...50 minutes tops. Scary. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal. Use some touch, or ranged touch, attacks and watch him crumble.
Dragonsblood 11-13-05, 01:54 PM	The items in question weren't given to them ( c'mon who would give a once/day alter self amulet-that would make the rogue's dusguise skill take a punch ), they were created by the party wizard No, you gave it to them. As the DM you are well within your right to not allow magic items to be made. Maybe you should use your nifty little crafting formula to give them a ring of True Strike next? Or maybe an amulet of continuous Cure Light Woulds? Both of these items can be created with the crafting formula - it doesn't mean you have to allow it. What you really need to do is actually READ THE DMG. Then maybe you'll understand how to be a DM.
Edymnion 11-13-05, 02:38 PM	What you really need to do is actually READ THE DMG. Then maybe you'll understand how to be a DM.And what you need to do is take it down a notch. All that kind of bullying will do is put his back up and make him dig his heals in to fight back. If you can't say anything nice...
Dragonsblood 11-13-05, 03:10 PM	I was going for shock value :)
anders 11-13-05, 03:30 PM	Take a look at this article. It introduces some houserules to deal with polymorph spell types brokeness. http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html
FriendoftheDork 11-13-05, 05:07 PM	I was going for shock value :) you were going over the top with the last sentence. Even I felt insulted on the OPs behalf, even if what you said was right. Be VERY careful when PCs want to design items, the pricing lists are guidelines only. If you think an item is too cheap according to it's effect, then make it more expensive or downright ban it.
allenchan 11-13-05, 05:09 PM	They don't get flight until they reach 5 HD and since you alter self into the base form of a creature (1 HD), arguably the best you'll get is their glide ability. Additionally both their flight and glide abilities are "ex" abilities, so I'm not certain you'd even get that. They don't have a fly speed listed in their stat block (of course they don't even have a stat block anywhere that I've seen). You gain Ex abilities, such as flight, amphibious, etc that are based on physical changes, and their flight is not based on base racial HD, just total HD. Your HD do not change, so yes, you would get it.
Thulsa Doom 11-13-05, 07:30 PM	No, you gave it to them. As the DM you are well within your right to not allow magic items to be made. Maybe you should use your nifty little crafting formula to give them a ring of True Strike next? Or maybe an amulet of continuous Cure Light Woulds? Both of these items can be created with the crafting formula - it doesn't mean you have to allow it. What you really need to do is actually READ THE DMG. Then maybe you'll understand how to be a DM. Don't think I should be the one doing the reading...if you think that a spell with an "instantaneous" duration can be made permanent then there is something wrong... And there are many low-level spells that are super useful if made permanent ( like Lesser Vigor, Expeditious retreat, etc. ) and creating them is completely within the rules. Unlike a necromancer with a constant Slay living effect item like you suggest... Just because my players are inquisitive and take time to maximize their character's potential and ARE WITHIN the rules that doesn't mean I have to cut off everything that would make my life difficult... First thing I would be saying is "you can't create that item" and the next would be " you can't run ... Why?...You have a splinter in your foot and it is too painful for your character to even stand, and yes, I almost forgot....you just had a heart attack....you're dead"... I remind you, it's a game made for !!!!!RPG-ing!!!!!, so if my player wants to grow turnips one session I don't shine him off and tell him he can't do it. Creating items is the same as RPG-ing. Again, allowing players to express themselves either way they want is the entire point of the game! If you drive them around by their noses that is called dominating and the only one having fun is you... I just wanted to discuss this topic because I think his action is DISALLOWED BY THE RULES, nothing more...if I were sure that it was legit, I wouldn't say a word because it's the DM's job to please the players, not the other way around...
Ogmug 11-13-05, 07:44 PM	No, you gave it to them. As the DM you are well within your right to not allow magic items to be made. Maybe you should use your nifty little crafting formula to give them a ring of True Strike next? Or maybe an amulet of continuous Cure Light Woulds? Both of these items can be created with the crafting formula - it doesn't mean you have to allow it. What you really need to do is actually READ THE DMG. Then maybe you'll understand how to be a DM. You mean this ring of true strike, as described by Skip Williams, in Rules of the Game, making magic items, part 7? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring oftrue strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range. Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain. So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring. Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs.
The Livewire 11-13-05, 08:06 PM	some ideas Reach weapon weilding P-war 8 The level 8 version has as feats 1st Stand Still, Psionic Talent 2nd WF 'reach weapon' of choice. 3rd Psionic Weapon 5th, Psionic meditation 6th Extend Power 8th Deep Impact Powers: Metaphysical Weapon Force Screen (for the AC, if nothing else) Expansion Darkvision, Psionic Strength of My enemy Hustle Empathic Transfer, HOstile Evade burst. It's safe to assume that he'll have an extended +2 metaphysical weapon (9PP) and extended Darkvision (5PP) since extended they work for 16 hours. Assuming Strength 16 and Wis 14 before adjustments, his reach weapon will go +12/+7 If he has time he manifests strength of my enemy on the chain, and lets loose with a combo of Deep Impact then a normal shot (if he gets lucky) + Hustle to refocus. Stand Still keeps anything from closing easily and each hit from the chain does 1 point of strength damage and adds to his strength. Expansion would just add insult to injury, making his attacks +14/+9 and the increased reach/damage combo. If he's to be a recurring villian, then he'd save 3 PP for a hustle boosted run :-) 2 4th level Wilders each with Ego Whip Energy Ray/Crystal Shard and Entangling ectoplasm (I liked Ectogoo better as a name) The Charisma damage, slowing of the party, and general AC boost is guarenteed to drain resources all around, and even slow down the Giants down. :-) More PHB related... A 6th level Sorceror with Point blank shot, precice shot, and empower spell. Ray of enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Ray of Frost, and Dispell Magic. 1d6+3 * 1.5 = average of 9 or 10 points of strength penality "Full... Plate... Armor. Can't, MOVE! Making me talk... Like Bill... Shatner." Then his lower level flunkies can distract the rest of the party while he's firing off scortching ray. Make him a battle Sorceror for more fun. (This last one I sent to our DM as an option to challenge the party. He never used it, but agreed that it would maul us quite nicely.) Cleric of Ra with a true holy symbol. Sun domanin makes those hill giants go away. Hail to the sun god He is a fun god Ra, Ra, Ra :-) The alter self/armor combo is good, Iv'e used it myself, but then I was playing a rogue so it wasn't as bad.
Dragonsblood 11-13-05, 08:56 PM	Ogmug, exactly. At first glance it appears that the item is worth 2-8k, but in actuallity, if a DM uses common sense, the item is worth much much more. And there are many low-level spells that are super useful if made permanent ( like Lesser Vigor, Expeditious retreat, etc. ) and creating them is completely within the rules. Unlike a necromancer with a constant Slay living effect item like you suggest... Just because my players are inquisitive and take time to maximize their character's potential and ARE WITHIN the rules that doesn't mean I have to cut off everything that would make my life difficult... If you'd read the item creation rules (and not just the tables and formulas) you'd know this isn't true :rolleyes: First thing I would be saying is "you can't create that item" and the next would be " you can't run ... Why?...You have a splinter in your foot and it is too painful for your character to even stand, and yes, I almost forgot....you just had a heart attack....you're dead"... And I suppose the next thing you'll say to your players is "sure, you can Wish for that major artifact with no negative consequences." You need to limit your player's power to keep the game fun for them. Why else would you start this thread in the first place? First you're asking for help because the item screwed up the game. And now you're saying you'd give them the item anyway? I'm trying to help you with your long term problem - you need to learn when to say no to your players. I just wanted to discuss this topic because I think his action is DISALLOWED BY THE RULES, nothing more...if I were sure that it was legit, I wouldn't say a word because it's the DM's job to please the players, not the other way around... It's both.
tiercel 11-13-05, 10:01 PM	Here's the thing -- it's one thing to say, "well, in principle it shouldn't be impossible to create an alter self 1/day item" and another thing to say "that costs the same as any 2nd-level spell 1/day item." There really should be some guideline, if nothing else, about upping the price for an item that duplicates a spell that can normally only affect the caster. (Otherwise your barbarian PC will sell his orcish mother into slavery if it will help him get an antimagic field 1/day item ASAP.) As for the rules question, it still stands -- if nothing else, front-line fighters can use it without a custom item. Eldritch Knights can do it straight up, and a Rogue 1/Fighter X spending 2 points per level on UMD can do it with a wand of alter self. Heck, a cleric with the Magic domain can pull this off with a wand of alter self. And this is all Core, off the top of my head -- there are probably a lot more ways to get access to alter self as a potential front-line fighter even without a custom item.
StormCrow42 11-13-05, 10:36 PM	You gain Ex abilities, such as flight, amphibious, etc that are based on physical changes, and their flight is not based on base racial HD, just total HD. Your HD do not change, so yes, you would get it. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. A Raptorian's glide and flight qualities are both listed as (ex), as a departure from the description of any other monster's flight capabilities, save the avariel [winged elf] (all of which are just listed as a fly speed in the movement section of their stat block).
MuL 11-14-05, 03:07 AM	Well at least he is not turning into a Tren or a Crucian they are out of Serpent Kingdoms and Sandstorm. Both those races get a +8 Natural Armor. heh
Deep Blue 9000 11-14-05, 03:20 AM	If I were you, TALK to the player and explain to him your reservations and ask (NOT demand) that he accept another item in exchange. He is well within his rights to refuse, so don't get pissy if he does. And don't do the above "incidences" either. You will only **** your players off. The ones advicing you to use such contrived notions are pretty socially inept. You do NOT want to be one of them. I'm suprised this jewel of wisdom got so easily overlooked. I think people who have been DMing for too long seem to develop an tendency to squash anything adventageous the PCs gain. You should either accept it (its really not *that* strong) or ask him to not use it. EDIT: I missed one of your later posts, you said you were only asking because you thought it sounded fishy. I'm afraid its allowable by the RAW.
amethal 11-14-05, 11:45 AM	Because the only winged humanoid race is some flying elf race from Forgotten Realms. If you're not playing a FR campaign there isn't anything to alter self into that can fly.And even if you are playing a FR campaign, those elves are supposed to be pretty rare. I imagine most people have never even heard of them, let alone seen one. Alter self into a troglodyte is perfectly legal. I'm not sure whether alter self grants you the stench effect, its a bit of a grey area. If it does, I'd say it is involuntary (so he's not going to be very popular with the rest of the party). In theory a monster with any intelligence can take improved sunder, although dumber monsters wouldn't think to use it. However, unless the monster had some reason to know what the amulet did, and some reason to consider it to be the main threat, then I think it would be grossly unfair to sunder the amulet. If this character is dominating sessions, so that the other players aren't having fun, then you have a problem which needs sorting out. If not, you don't. (If you are having problems, an empowered ray of enfeeblement can work wonders, but don't overdo it!)
Habronicus 11-14-05, 12:53 PM	Alter self into a troglodyte is perfectly legal. I don't think that was ever an issue. Of course it's legal. The issue is whether the Armor adapts to the new body shape (and adds its protection) or if it's absorbed/dropped while the shape is in effect (thus not providing additional protection). I'm not sure whether alter self grants you the stench effect, its a bit of a grey area. If it does, I'd say it is involuntary (so he's not going to be very popular with the rest of the party). And if it doesn't, others of his kind will notice he's different... :D
Thulsa Doom 11-14-05, 01:27 PM	At last someone gets it ( Habronicus ;) ) so I'll refrase the question for the lot of you: DOES THE ENTIRE FULL PLATE CHANGE ACOORDING TO ITS ABILITY OF "MINOR RESIZING"- BY CHANGE I MEAN THE LEGS ( look at how the trog looks like and compare it to a human !!! ) AND THE TAIL ( the plate needs a hole above the a** ) WHICH NEEDS TO BE PLATED - WHICH MEANS ADDITIONAL 10 POUNDS OF STEEL OR WHATEVER WHICH COME FROM WHERE?!?!?!!? Hope this cleared things up - to those of you who understood my question earlier ignore this reply...
Belljar 11-14-05, 01:27 PM	A little thing I discovered while having a Vow of Poverty (from Book of Exalted Cheese, er, Deeds) Monk in my campaign (who had a 29 AC, and a 26 Touch AC) is Swarms. Swarms never roll to hit, don't provoke attacks of Opportunity, and can cause nausea in characters. Some have additional dangerous abilities such as disease. The ones I found most useful (due to the milieu at the time) were the Undead swarms from Libris Mortis. Your mileage may vary since the fellow in your game is a Cleric. Previous posters also mentioned Grappling, which I also found handy. A Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion is pretty dangerous when grappling - so is a Black Pudding. The Monk in my campaign had no defense against a Black Pudding. Luckily for him the Cleric in the party had Resist Energy prepared. After that he was just taking a Pudding Exfoliant bath... :rolleyes: You mentioned Freedom of Movement, though. That's a bummer if he has it prepared and can use it while being grappled. Touch and Ranged Touch attacks are another good option, also something other posters have mentioned. Best of luck.
Calico Jack Drake 11-14-05, 03:51 PM	One of the better things about the switch from AD&D to 3.x was the change in how armor was sized. Before you could run across a fantastic set of armor only to realize no one in the party could wear it because it was sized for a [insert race here]. That frustrated the snot out of the players because they would fight their way through everything only to get a prize they couldn't use and the DM could give them a fraction of what it was worth because of "supply and demand" issues. The ultimate answer to your question depends on how much bookkeeping work you want to do. If you don't mind keeping track of where the party found any given item (not just armor, though that will be the one most often encountered) then you can HR it so a creature with a "significant difference" (tail, etc.) in anatomy has to wear armor made only for his race. This will preclude the party from using any armor they find for a race significantly different than their own. It will also prevent a shap change into that race. On the other hand, the way I read it and play it IMC, the armor will fit anyone of the same type (humanoid) in the same size category. This allows the players to get the reward for defeating the BBEG or a minion and not feel cheated when they go to loot the body. As for the amulet itself, while not part of the original question, I don't see it as particularly powerful. It doesn't last long enough to be an issue and if the second encounter in a day come a couple hours after the first, it's not useful. The PC has to figure out if the current situation calls for burning that one charge when something more powerful may be coming down the pike later in the day. Finally, as for defeating it, Ray of Enfeeblement (? the one that does STR damage on a ranged touch). That +2 Full Plate is going to be awfully heavy for someone who just lost the majority of their strength bonus. Worse, when you enforce the encumberance rules he'll have penatlies to movement, skills and most everything else. It counters the alter self with a spell of similar power so you don't have to over-do the bad guys just to defeat this player. Give the spell to one of the bad guys in the form of a wand with 3 charges left. The minion hits anyone in armor with it since that will affect their ability to hit/damage/and move. A reasonable thing to do, actually. And, if the party gets ahold of the wand with a charge or two left, it doesn't break the campaign when they start pointing it at every bad guy you throw at them. Hope this helps, --CJ
Lincoln Hills 11-14-05, 03:52 PM	DOES THE ENTIRE FULL PLATE CHANGE ACCORDING TO ITS ABILITY OF "MINOR RESIZING"? BY CHANGE I MEAN THE LEGS... AND THE TAIL... WHICH NEEDS TO BE PLATED - WHICH MEANS ADDITIONAL 10 POUNDS OF STEEL OR WHATEVER... The written rules overlook some fairly drastic variations in the shape of ordinary creatures. If you examine the proportions of a bugbear, a high elf, and a dwarf - and then consider that the same suit of magic armor will fit any of 'em, you have an idea of how major this 'minor resizing' can be. Thus, if he were transforming into - say - a gnoll, with their backsprung legs, I'd say No Problems. However, the tail (as you have said) requires additional plates and such. It requires coverage and a fair degree of flexibility. I would say that magic armor designed for a race with a tail - including but not limited to trogs, half-dragons, etc. - would not lose its "tail plates" if worn by a human, so there's no reason to assume that magic armor designed for a non-tailed race (i.e. humans) would grow an additional hole. That's an opinion, not a ruling based on anything in the books - but you asked.
Leewei 11-14-05, 06:12 PM	As for the amulet there is the craft wondrous item feat and a very simple formula ( for 1/day alter self , for example: for the "command word" item: spell level*caster level*1800 ---- 2*3*1800=10800 and with one charge per day, that means divide by 5 divided by charges per day ( here 1 ) so that means 10800 / ( 5/1 )= 2160... So the crafting price is 1080 gp and 87 XP which is REALLY a puny sum for an 8th level character. The same guidelines also make it clear that any item created is subject to DM approval. An alter self item is something I'd think hard upon before approving in a game for obvious reasons. The platemail should work just fine despite the form change. Magic armor made for medium humanoids should work for pretty much all medium humanoids. If PCs killed a trog chieftain and got armor from it, it'd be fair for them to expect to use it (maybe after liberally scrubbing it). The real problem here is the cheesiness of the alter self spell. I'd suggest producing houserules to prevent abuse of this and (later in the game) polymorph spells. I'd suggest for starters that you define any Natural Armor gained as being Enhancement with a limit of +1 / 3 caster levels. This stops it from stacking with barkskin and greatly reduces the opportunities for abuse.
20goingon1232 11-14-05, 10:39 PM	There is some of you who are against and some who are for so I guess it's one of those times when I can't blame it on the crowd ;) :rolleyes: The ones for the idiocies are usually playing a game where the DM (ie., them) is showing off how big his wang is by taking a dump on the players. :D
pres_man 11-14-05, 11:12 PM	Stench issue: You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. Stench (Ex): When a troglodyte is angry or frightened, it secretes an oily, musk-like chemical that nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. It's an extraordinary special attack, thus you don't get it when you alterself into one. Sorry guys, no stinky in the party. Since it is not really clear, I'd just allow it. Really, there are much bigger issues to worry about then this. Such as if you are a halfling and alterself into a troglodyte, does your gear get resized as the enlarge person spell or does it get absorbed? What if you are half-orc archer and alterself into a kobold, does your gear get changed or absorbed?
devinmdp 11-14-05, 11:14 PM	A 9th level druid can give a +5 natural armour bonus with a simple barksin spell, so an 8th level PC getting a +6 natural armour bonus isn't that big of a deal. You SHOULD enforce the stench though. Also, there are other drawbacks to being a troglodyte. People won't recognize the PC and may assume he is evil. Many people would shoot a troglodyte first and ask questions later. Design scenarios that intersperse (dare I say it) roleplaying amongst combats. Then let's see his troglodyte try to charm or diplomacy his way past anything (other than more troglodytes). Devin
Moon-Lancer 11-14-05, 11:50 PM	in the srd someplace, it says fullplate needs to be retailerd if someone else wants to use it. If he has platemale his shape would change just enuff to need it retailerd to use. In otherwords it would meld into his body.
Leewei 11-15-05, 12:04 AM	A 9th level druid can give a +5 natural armour bonus with a simple barksin spell, so an 8th level PC getting a +6 natural armour bonus isn't that big of a deal. I think it's a +4 bonus at 9th level; you need 12 caster levels for +5. Admittedly, there are items out there that allow for effective level 12 earlier than level 9. Even nastier, the Natural Armor bonus for barkskin is an enhancement bonus and will stack with that from alter self, polymorph and the like. This isn't an either-or sort of thing per the RAW. Alter self, wildshape, polymorph and shapeshift need some severe overhauling. Their current workings are archaic and at times downright nonsensical -- and all-to-prone to abuse by creative players.
Shedeo 11-15-05, 05:05 AM	Here's an idea I had. Make him use it. Play up the introduction to a "powerful" encounter, big scary sounding badguy,... Surprise! Its a kobold wererat. Use of Alter Self, and then he wont have it when he needs it. Or, if you wanted to take it away, say that there's a library or something in the city that the PCs next come to. Then, cleverly place a shadowy, mysterious man in the bar and have him describe an item that will make the PC's mouth water. The item & building also happen to be owned by the BBEG. He's almost definitely bound to go after it. Then, he breaks in, fights some guards, destroys some property,... He now has the item. The city guards find out about the robber/murder, and let him over to the will of the BBEG. The BBEG demands that the character give him something that would make up for the losses he suffered. That amulet and that armor might be nice, eh? Okay, so the wizard can reforge the armor. No biggie, its just +1 armor. However, the BBEG also needs the character to do a "favor" for him, so he puts a cursed amulet around his neck that, well, takes up his amulet slot. Could also have some other kind of curse to prevent him from becoming things other than himself. Note that the villain I described here was LE, so if you're using a NE this may not be appropriate, and CE is absolutely out of the question.
Man-Rata 11-15-05, 09:16 AM	To the OP: First, what he did is fully legit. Magical armour in 3.5 no longer resize, IIRC. But it DOES adjust within the size category. This means that if he does not change SIZE, he is fine. The armour works. Just to be a bit of a stickler, the full plate does actually need to be resized. Full Plate: The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4x100) gold pieces. Which would mean it cannot be used by a troglodyte, at least not with ease. There are some rules for that in Complete Warrior i think. But an AC of 32 yes thats high, I'm currently playing Eberron. One of my players is a Shifter Soulknife, he has the longstrider trait (+2 dex), and as an extra trait has the tough hide thing, with the improved tough hide (+4 natural). Before Shifting he has an AC of 24, +3 Dex, +4 Shield (+2 heavy shield), +7 Armour (+2 Mithral Breastplate). He also has a tendency to fight defensivly with combat expertise. Using 2 or 3 BAB to AC. That gives him while shifting an AC of 30 to 33. He is level 6. Some might say that a +2 Mithral Breastplate and a +2 Shield is much for 6th level character. But it almost the only magic he has besides a few potions. He bought them both himself, for his share of the loot. I think the DMG suggest 15K gp for a 6th level character, so the ca. 11000 gp, it has cost him isn't expectionel. And since we adventure in Sharn, it's hard to argument that it isn't available. My problem isn't as bad, as the problem discribed above, but it's still annoying, and probably going to get worse as he gets Rings of Protection, Amulets of natural armor and maybe grafts. He is also the person with the highest HP. Normally I simply find monsters with high attack rating, but it's a bit of a strain on the rest of the group. It's a bit of a problem that wizards made it so that you can get a lot more bonuses to AC than to to-hit.
pres_man 11-15-05, 09:21 AM	Just to be a bit of a stickler, the full plate does actually need to be resized. Full Plate: The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4x100) gold pieces. Which would mean it cannot be used by a troglodyte, at least not with ease. There are some rules for that in Complete Warrior i think. One could always argue that what you are talking about here is correct for an item that is picked up. Yet if an item is being worn when a spell is cast, the magic takes care of the problem. Just like when you cast enlarge person and everything gets larger. Now if he turned in to a troglodyte and then tried to put in the armor then that wouldn't work.
Man-Rata 11-15-05, 09:55 AM	One could always argue that what you are talking about here is correct for an item that is picked up. Yet if an item is being worn when a spell is cast, the magic takes care of the problem. Just like when you cast enlarge person and everything gets larger. Now if he turned in to a troglodyte and then tried to put in the armor then that wouldn't work. The spell doesn't alter equipment, it specifically says that it aborbs unusuable equipment. Ergo, the armor has to be absorbed.
Bellegante 11-15-05, 10:57 AM	He can't get his AC any higher than that, including an alter self amulet? Is he asleep? Or have you only allowed the core books? The alter self amulet is powerful, but it's not unbalanced. You don't need to nerf it by making up house rules about his armor not functioning because troglodytes can't wear platemail.. it's supposed to adjust. Good rule of thumb is that if he's changing into something humanoid, he can wear anything he's currently wearing because he is humanoid. Now, if you only have one encounter per day, ANY 1/day item becomes a thousand times better. The CR system is based around.. 4 encounters per day, I beleive. Not saying you should have 4 in a day, but if you had two that were that far apart, he could only alter self for one of them. In any case, even without this, the cleric is the most powerful character in any party. Deal with it. Someone has to be the most powerful, after all.
Saabre 11-15-05, 01:08 PM	Full Plate: The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4x100) gold pieces. This is actually right. I thought for sure it only applied to non-magical armor because I and anyone I have ever played under have always played that magic armor sizes to refit a character, but I looked it up and even for magic armor it comes in specific sizes. It makes me wonder how a house rule became so widespread. Well I will still allow magic armor to resize in my games but I wouldn't allow armor made for a human to fit a creature that had extra limbs which would include a tail.
Leewei 11-15-05, 02:14 PM	There is a write-up in the DMG 3.5 about resizing magic armor. I don't see anything to match in the SRD. In a nutshell, you generally never need to refit magical armor. I'll edit this to add the pertinent quote once I'm away from work.