Altered Form Dragon NPC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altered Form Dragon NPC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Selfless_Id
04-25-07, 04:37 PM I hate how this board logs you out after 10 min. Anyway...

My friend is DMing for his brother and HIS friend(s). I am co-DMing.

I will also be playing an NPC disguised as a PC for story purposes. He will be in the main party almost all of the time.

This 'NPC', we're calling it, is a Silver Dragon (young -- 22-25 years old) and is being Alter Formed, most likely a drow, permanently for story purposes.

Some issues have arrived that we need clearing up (its my job to get this guy ready to go but my friend has all the books and is at work so I would poring over the books to find an answer but I don't have quick access to the books -- only the online SRD).

First off...

What abilities of the Dragon are going to carry over?

Will any carry over?

Will none carry over?

Are we going to end up with something like this:

HP: 13d12+26 + 1d10+new con mod(drow)/class lvl

Stats:
Str: ?
Dex: ? +2(drow)
Con: ? -2(drow)
Int: 16(dragon) +2(drow)
Wis: 17(dragon)
Cha: 16(dragon) +2(drow)

AC: 10(base) + 12 (dragon) + new dex mod(drow) + armor

BAB: 13 + class bonus

Fortitude: 10 + class bonus + new con mod(drow)
Reflex: 8 + class bonus + new dex mod(drow)
Will: 11 + class bonus + old wis mod(dragon)

Breath weapon 6d8(dragon)

Immunity to acid and cold(dragon)
Cloudwalking(dragon)
Vulnerability to fire(dragon)

Class skills + Bluff, Disguise, and Jump(dragon)

You can see a few issues up there.

First how are we to determine Str, Dex, and Con of a Drow? The Drow in the MM has Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12 (unmodified). Seeing as this is a PC NPC (weird I know) should we roll the stats?

For BAB do we do the normal -5 to determine extra attacks?

And I want to confirm that nothing of a Drow being carries over to the NPC except for the stat mods -- is that correct?

I know this is gonna require you to pull out the trusty 3.5MM but bare with me please because I really need the help to figure this out before Saturday.

Thanks.
T3hB4k4
04-26-07, 03:36 PM Ok, not sure how much help I can be but here goes.

My basic understanding of alternate form type spells is that the creature in question retains mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of the old race but adapts the physical stats of the new. In your case you would use racial modifiers for dragon for Int, Wis, and Cha but for Str, Dex and Con use the Drow modifiers. The HD of the dragon would not carry over into the new form if I remember correctly because physically he/she is now a Drow physically.

I believe you are correct in assuming that nothing other than physical type abilities is gained from the Drow, so no spell-like abilities etc.

Yes you are correct in rolling the stats, if you want information on how to determine racial mods to stats I believe there is a section about monster PC's in the DMG that is quite helpful in explaining that. I believe the basic concept is score-10(if average racial score is even) or 11 (if it is odd) = racial ability modifier of the race in question. This would transfer into your example as taking the racial mods of Str, Dex and Con from the Drow and Int, Wis, Cha racial mods from the Dragon.

Hope this helps.
trapspringer
04-26-07, 05:35 PM Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
* The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
* The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
* The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form.
* The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't come off as rude. I'm just gunna' embolden those apsects of this excerpt which are pertinent to your predicament (and your questions specifically; just read the thing, it lays it all out for you)
Luis_Dragunov
04-26-07, 10:10 PM I'm not very good with the deeper mechanics of the D&D system but let me tell you: your DMNPC better lay low or else you'll hog all the spotlight! =D
trapspringer
04-26-07, 10:54 PM What, with a mere... 19d12HD and casting like a level five sorcerer? Nah. No biggie.

I mean, game breaking, character-crushing brokken with two k's, but it's a DMPC. Show me one that isn't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 04:37 PM	I hate how this board logs you out after 10 min. Anyway... My friend is DMing for his brother and HIS friend(s). I am co-DMing. I will also be playing an NPC disguised as a PC for story purposes. He will be in the main party almost all of the time. This 'NPC', we're calling it, is a Silver Dragon (young -- 22-25 years old) and is being Alter Formed, most likely a drow, permanently for story purposes. Some issues have arrived that we need clearing up (its my job to get this guy ready to go but my friend has all the books and is at work so I would poring over the books to find an answer but I don't have quick access to the books -- only the online SRD). First off... What abilities of the Dragon are going to carry over? Will any carry over? Will none carry over? Are we going to end up with something like this: HP: 13d12+26 + 1d10+new con mod(drow)/class lvl Stats: Str: ? Dex: ? +2(drow) Con: ? -2(drow) Int: 16(dragon) +2(drow) Wis: 17(dragon) Cha: 16(dragon) +2(drow) AC: 10(base) + 12 (dragon) + new dex mod(drow) + armor BAB: 13 + class bonus Fortitude: 10 + class bonus + new con mod(drow) Reflex: 8 + class bonus + new dex mod(drow) Will: 11 + class bonus + old wis mod(dragon) Breath weapon 6d8(dragon) Immunity to acid and cold(dragon) Cloudwalking(dragon) Vulnerability to fire(dragon) Class skills + Bluff, Disguise, and Jump(dragon) You can see a few issues up there. First how are we to determine Str, Dex, and Con of a Drow? The Drow in the MM has Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12 (unmodified). Seeing as this is a PC NPC (weird I know) should we roll the stats? For BAB do we do the normal -5 to determine extra attacks? And I want to confirm that nothing of a Drow being carries over to the NPC except for the stat mods -- is that correct? I know this is gonna require you to pull out the trusty 3.5MM but bare with me please because I really need the help to figure this out before Saturday. Thanks.
T3hB4k4 04-26-07, 03:36 PM	Ok, not sure how much help I can be but here goes. My basic understanding of alternate form type spells is that the creature in question retains mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of the old race but adapts the physical stats of the new. In your case you would use racial modifiers for dragon for Int, Wis, and Cha but for Str, Dex and Con use the Drow modifiers. The HD of the dragon would not carry over into the new form if I remember correctly because physically he/she is now a Drow physically. I believe you are correct in assuming that nothing other than physical type abilities is gained from the Drow, so no spell-like abilities etc. Yes you are correct in rolling the stats, if you want information on how to determine racial mods to stats I believe there is a section about monster PC's in the DMG that is quite helpful in explaining that. I believe the basic concept is score-10(if average racial score is even) or 11 (if it is odd) = racial ability modifier of the race in question. This would transfer into your example as taking the racial mods of Str, Dex and Con from the Drow and Int, Wis, Cha racial mods from the Dragon. Hope this helps.
trapspringer 04-26-07, 05:35 PM	Alternate Form A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: * The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. * The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). * The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. * The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. * The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution. * The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. * The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. * Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. * The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. * The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. * Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't come off as rude. I'm just gunna' embolden those apsects of this excerpt which are pertinent to your predicament (and your questions specifically; just read the thing, it lays it all out for you)
Luis_Dragunov 04-26-07, 10:10 PM	I'm not very good with the deeper mechanics of the D&D system but let me tell you: your DMNPC better lay low or else you'll hog all the spotlight! =D
trapspringer 04-26-07, 10:54 PM	What, with a mere... 19d12HD and casting like a level five sorcerer? Nah. No biggie. I mean, game breaking, character-crushing brokken with two k's, but it's a DMPC. Show me one that isn't.