Altering a PrC that a player created [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altering a PrC that a player created [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SilverSabre25
09-15-05, 10:40 AM One of my players recently handed me a PrC that he made and wants me to allow. I took a look at it, and my initial thought was "ok, that's fine." He called me only a day later and was bugging me for feedback. So, to placate him, I said that it was fine except for a couple little things.

Later that evening, I got to thinking about it a bit more, and started realizing that there were in fact several things I didn't like about it. One was that the class, basically an arcane version of Hunter of the Dead, gave full arcane casting progression. That didn't make much sense to me, given the "undead-fighty" nature of the class.

So I enlisted the help of a friend who not only has been playing DnD for a much longer time than I, but is very good at spotting unbalanced things and balancing them. He spotted all the same problems I had, and we worked to fix them. The end result is something that looks a lot more like the Hunter of the Dead, with that spell list and spell progression. We made a few other changes as well.

I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)?
clarkvalentine
09-15-05, 10:52 AM You're absolutely in the right to enlist help. Two heads are better than one on that sort of thing, every time.

As far as how far can you go in altering it, you're within your rights to make any changes you want. However - this is a hint at what the player wants to be doing. Toss out any powergaming munchkinism without remorse, but don't ignore the hints this gives you about what sort of game the player is looking for - that information is worth gold, and is surprisingly hard to come by.
Limit
09-15-05, 10:54 AM I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)?
As the DM, you are responsible for making sure that unbalanced material doesn't negatively impact your game. If you are of the opinion that something is unbalanced, then you're protecting your game and your other players by not allowing it as written.

As far as talking to another player, I don't think you were out of line. Personally whenever a balance issue comes up, I ask my one friend his opinion on the matter without telling him first that I think it is unbalanced. Like you said, another set of eyes usually spots the same imbalances.

The thing to remember is that your work isn't done now that you have a revised draft of the PRC. If you want to be fair, you'll show you work to the player and ask him what he thinks. Be prepared to explain why you felt something was unbalanced and how your new draft is in line with existing material.

There may be specific things that your player wanted to achieve through his PRC and if you've removed them, don't cram the PRC down his throat now. "Well this is the approved version, take it or leave it" is a bit harsh :)

On a related matter, one of my players designed a PRC that gave him an instant resurrection back at his temple whenever he died. To this day, he still doesn't understand why it wasn't allow in the game.

:gah:
Ichor Spellka
09-15-05, 11:32 AM It's best to nip these things in the bud rather than let it in, and have to deal with it later.

One of my friends developped a very broken prc and the DM allowed it. Just before the campaign ended and the player was at the most powerful point in the prc (and he wasn't using everything he could have to break it, it was a cleric prc with full BAB, full casting, and class features) the DM decided he'd had enough and decided to kill the character, and essentially executed him.

Worst part was that my friend was leaving that area soon, and was about to retire the pc, but the DM never gave him the chance.
RaspK FOG
09-15-05, 12:36 PM What you are allowed to do is keep notes of what you don't like and present something that looks close to what you would have liked to play with were you running the PC while keeping in mind that this won't reap through your NPCs...
Bryarr
09-16-05, 03:55 AM Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly?

Bry
Nom
09-16-05, 07:25 AM As DM, you are ultimately responsible for any non-standard rules that get enacted in your game. As such, your player has 3 options:

- get permission to play the PrC as written

- play the PrC with any changes you make

- don't play the PrC

It's perfectly appropriate for you to ask for advice from others. It's also recommended that you discuss any thoughts with the player and try to reach agreement. I'd also recommend allowing it "provisionally", which means that if either of you isn't happy with how it is working out you can reopen negotiations and modify it as necessary. The one thing you shouldn't do is to change the PrC and then expect the player to play the changed version whether he wants to or not.
Joe Khol
09-16-05, 07:28 AM I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)?

You should alter anything as far as you need to so that it will work in your game. Enlisting more experienced help (or just a second opinion) is always a good idea.

The only thing I would do differently is involve the player in the process. The DM always has the last call of course but if the player has designed the PrC for a specific character and style of play, he should have some input in where the compromises could be made.

I guess the nature of that input depends on whether the issues are style or balance based.
DrMorganes
09-16-05, 10:22 AM Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly?Apparently.

Believe it or not, players ARE a valuable resource for new content in your games. Developing new prestige classes, new spells, and new magic items are just a few of the ways players can contribute to your game world. Obviously it is the responsibility of the DM to guide the player in his/her endeavor, ensuring that the final product is appropriate and balanced for the game that is being run.
Thimble the Squit
09-16-05, 10:35 AM Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly?
Oh yes, players should very definitely be allowed to develop their own Prestige Classes; indeed, they should be encouraged to do so. But under no circumstances does that mean the DM should allow the PrC as written. I believe that silversabre25 was right in his approach: by asking for help with it, he gets a better view of the possibilities; more specifically, he gets an opinion from a player in his game, which can offer a very different perspective from that of the DM's.

And I agree with clarkvalentine's reply as well: the player who wrote the class is giving his DM pure gold to work with; he's showing what his character goals are, what he plans to do in the future, where he wants his character to go. That's excellent material and should be rewarded -- but certainly not by allowing any old cheese-on-toast Prestige Class without a thorough inspection first...

So, ss25, your best course of action now would be to hand him back your edited version, explaining exactly why you believed it required amendment -- and even that the choices you made were with the help of a fellow player, as objectively as possible -- and then you give your player the choice to take or leave your representation of the class or to go away and tweak it again himself if it has been changed significantly beyond his original concept. It sounds to me like you have an eager but inexperienced player rather than a munchkin on your hands; he's created something overpowered but probably not intentionally so, being unaware of the delicate checks and balances implicit within the game.

With your help and advice, he'll get a Prestige Class that suits the character he wants to play and which won't unhinge your game -- or at the very least, cause the other players to go, "Oy! That's a bit good! Where's my cheese-on-toast?", and so escalate the power leel of your game rather too steeply...
roland the red
09-16-05, 10:43 AM I haven't read the thread, just the first post...

Basically reject his PrC. Tell him why. Tell him what issues you have and if he seems willingly, show him your version. I would suggest telling him to use Hunter of the Dead as a starting point and to try and replace rather than add to that PrC. But do not say "I reject it and here is what I made. You can play this." That is too stifling of his creativity.

It is great when you have a player who takes initiative and does something like create a PrC. Encourage that by sending him back to the drawing board. He should be encouraged to keep trying until something more balanced is created. He will have a better appreciation of the game and a DMs role in it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilverSabre25 09-15-05, 10:40 AM	One of my players recently handed me a PrC that he made and wants me to allow. I took a look at it, and my initial thought was "ok, that's fine." He called me only a day later and was bugging me for feedback. So, to placate him, I said that it was fine except for a couple little things. Later that evening, I got to thinking about it a bit more, and started realizing that there were in fact several things I didn't like about it. One was that the class, basically an arcane version of Hunter of the Dead, gave full arcane casting progression. That didn't make much sense to me, given the "undead-fighty" nature of the class. So I enlisted the help of a friend who not only has been playing DnD for a much longer time than I, but is very good at spotting unbalanced things and balancing them. He spotted all the same problems I had, and we worked to fix them. The end result is something that looks a lot more like the Hunter of the Dead, with that spell list and spell progression. We made a few other changes as well. I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)?
clarkvalentine 09-15-05, 10:52 AM	You're absolutely in the right to enlist help. Two heads are better than one on that sort of thing, every time. As far as how far can you go in altering it, you're within your rights to make any changes you want. However - this is a hint at what the player wants to be doing. Toss out any powergaming munchkinism without remorse, but don't ignore the hints this gives you about what sort of game the player is looking for - that information is worth gold, and is surprisingly hard to come by.
Limit 09-15-05, 10:54 AM	I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)? As the DM, you are responsible for making sure that unbalanced material doesn't negatively impact your game. If you are of the opinion that something is unbalanced, then you're protecting your game and your other players by not allowing it as written. As far as talking to another player, I don't think you were out of line. Personally whenever a balance issue comes up, I ask my one friend his opinion on the matter without telling him first that I think it is unbalanced. Like you said, another set of eyes usually spots the same imbalances. The thing to remember is that your work isn't done now that you have a revised draft of the PRC. If you want to be fair, you'll show you work to the player and ask him what he thinks. Be prepared to explain why you felt something was unbalanced and how your new draft is in line with existing material. There may be specific things that your player wanted to achieve through his PRC and if you've removed them, don't cram the PRC down his throat now. "Well this is the approved version, take it or leave it" is a bit harsh :) On a related matter, one of my players designed a PRC that gave him an instant resurrection back at his temple whenever he died. To this day, he still doesn't understand why it wasn't allow in the game. :gah:
Ichor Spellka 09-15-05, 11:32 AM	It's best to nip these things in the bud rather than let it in, and have to deal with it later. One of my friends developped a very broken prc and the DM allowed it. Just before the campaign ended and the player was at the most powerful point in the prc (and he wasn't using everything he could have to break it, it was a cleric prc with full BAB, full casting, and class features) the DM decided he'd had enough and decided to kill the character, and essentially executed him. Worst part was that my friend was leaving that area soon, and was about to retire the pc, but the DM never gave him the chance.
RaspK FOG 09-15-05, 12:36 PM	What you are allowed to do is keep notes of what you don't like and present something that looks close to what you would have liked to play with were you running the PC while keeping in mind that this won't reap through your NPCs...
Bryarr 09-16-05, 03:55 AM	Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly? Bry
Nom 09-16-05, 07:25 AM	As DM, you are ultimately responsible for any non-standard rules that get enacted in your game. As such, your player has 3 options: - get permission to play the PrC as written - play the PrC with any changes you make - don't play the PrC It's perfectly appropriate for you to ask for advice from others. It's also recommended that you discuss any thoughts with the player and try to reach agreement. I'd also recommend allowing it "provisionally", which means that if either of you isn't happy with how it is working out you can reopen negotiations and modify it as necessary. The one thing you shouldn't do is to change the PrC and then expect the player to play the changed version whether he wants to or not.
Joe Khol 09-16-05, 07:28 AM	I guess my question is this: how far should a DM go when altering a PrC that a player created for his character, and was it right to enlist the help of someone else (who also plays in this game)? You should alter anything as far as you need to so that it will work in your game. Enlisting more experienced help (or just a second opinion) is always a good idea. The only thing I would do differently is involve the player in the process. The DM always has the last call of course but if the player has designed the PrC for a specific character and style of play, he should have some input in where the compromises could be made. I guess the nature of that input depends on whether the issues are style or balance based.
DrMorganes 09-16-05, 10:22 AM	Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly?Apparently. Believe it or not, players ARE a valuable resource for new content in your games. Developing new prestige classes, new spells, and new magic items are just a few of the ways players can contribute to your game world. Obviously it is the responsibility of the DM to guide the player in his/her endeavor, ensuring that the final product is appropriate and balanced for the game that is being run.
Thimble the Squit 09-16-05, 10:35 AM	Wait, we're allowing players to design PrCs now? Did I miss an issue of DM Weekly? Oh yes, players should very definitely be allowed to develop their own Prestige Classes; indeed, they should be encouraged to do so. But under no circumstances does that mean the DM should allow the PrC as written. I believe that silversabre25 was right in his approach: by asking for help with it, he gets a better view of the possibilities; more specifically, he gets an opinion from a player in his game, which can offer a very different perspective from that of the DM's. And I agree with clarkvalentine's reply as well: the player who wrote the class is giving his DM pure gold to work with; he's showing what his character goals are, what he plans to do in the future, where he wants his character to go. That's excellent material and should be rewarded -- but certainly not by allowing any old cheese-on-toast Prestige Class without a thorough inspection first... So, ss25, your best course of action now would be to hand him back your edited version, explaining exactly why you believed it required amendment -- and even that the choices you made were with the help of a fellow player, as objectively as possible -- and then you give your player the choice to take or leave your representation of the class or to go away and tweak it again himself if it has been changed significantly beyond his original concept. It sounds to me like you have an eager but inexperienced player rather than a munchkin on your hands; he's created something overpowered but probably not intentionally so, being unaware of the delicate checks and balances implicit within the game. With your help and advice, he'll get a Prestige Class that suits the character he wants to play and which won't unhinge your game -- or at the very least, cause the other players to go, "Oy! That's a bit good! Where's my cheese-on-toast?", and so escalate the power leel of your game rather too steeply...
roland the red 09-16-05, 10:43 AM	I haven't read the thread, just the first post... Basically reject his PrC. Tell him why. Tell him what issues you have and if he seems willingly, show him your version. I would suggest telling him to use Hunter of the Dead as a starting point and to try and replace rather than add to that PrC. But do not say "I reject it and here is what I made. You can play this." That is too stifling of his creativity. It is great when you have a player who takes initiative and does something like create a PrC. Encourage that by sending him back to the drawing board. He should be encouraged to keep trying until something more balanced is created. He will have a better appreciation of the game and a DMs role in it.