Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wynde 12-13-06, 05:44 PM	I started reading the thread about point buy vs rolling, looking for some ideas on how to have my players create characters in a new campaign. Unfortunately, I think that threads gotten a little bogged down in "discussion" for me to be able to find what I want. I saw some interesting ideas in there, but it didn't seem like the right place for me to ask for an explanation of the methods in detail. So all arguing about preferences aside, what I'm really interested in are alternate character creation/ability score generation methods that you guys have used and like. I don't care if they are point buy, array, rolling, or something else, I'm just trying to examine some alternatives. Thanks for any help!
Seghan 12-13-06, 06:44 PM	We have taken some alternatives in my group. In some campaigns we have actually picked our own scores. No 18's unless assigned by the DM (we use a lottery), players have to justify their scores to the group and the group votes to accept the array. We also keep track of average scores and average modifiers based on averages from the stock arrays and from numerous test builds. It has to be the right kind of (non-powergaming) group to pull this off, they have to take their character rp seriously. If they do, though, it gives unparalled flexibility in developing character concepts. If we do want to do a little powergaming, we go the opposite. Die roll, 3d6 for each ability and assigned in order. A build challenge!
GuardianLurker 12-13-06, 06:55 PM	Basically, the difference between point buy and rolling boils down to the philosophical question of "Are the PCs special/different?" If the answer is yes, then some variant of point-buy is the way to go, because it ensures the player can play what they want. I think you'll also find that, sight unseen, most players pick class, then roll stats, so point-buy will fit better with their expectations. (Yes, this also means that *players* expect their characters to be special.) If the answer is no, then you're looking at some variant of pure random rolling. The characters aren't special at all, they're just average people who got lucky and survived. These days, most don't use the old 1e "3d6 in order" method, but even the modified (and kinder) "4d6 and arrange" still falls in this category. There are all kinds of dances around and between these two poles, but that's essentially what drives the debate. There are problems with both approaches, of course. Point-buy does tend to produce cookie-cutter stats, so some people introduce randomness: 1) Use a base number of points + a random die roll. 2) Add a small die roll to the base to one (or more) stats, based on class, but use a fixed number of points (or even fixed+die). Pure random can produce stats that won't support the character the player wants, so some people: 3) Allow a certain number of rerolls 4) Require a minimum total bonus (and minimum stats) And then there's the in-between steps: 5) Allocate a number of dice to each stat from a single die pool. Depending on how generous you're feeling assignments can happen pre-roll (5d6 to Str, 3d6 to Cha...), or after rolling (These 3 6's to Str, this 6 and two 5's to Con, these three 1's to Cha...). If it's pre-roll the smallest the pool should be is 24d6. If it's after-roll, you can get by with smaller, though I would drop below 18d6. 6) Use the 1e Unearthed Arcana rules for rolling - each class gets a certain number of dice for each stat, keeping only the highest three. 1e Barbarians could roll 9d6 for Con! You'd have to update it for 3e, but it wouldn't be hard. And, of course, there are all kinds of baroque curliques applied to each of these, and many other methods as well, and just about every approach has been tried at one point or another.
Andrew 12-13-06, 06:57 PM	There are a few general character creation philosophies that I can think of. Different approaches to different aspects of character creation are more condusive to one or the other - sometimes entirely different systems are more suited to one or another. Choice The idea here is to begin with a concept. This may be created independently, or your entire group may get together and talk about who would like to play what (recommended). Then, within the rules of the game, you build a character that fills that concept and role as desired. I personally believe that this philosophy is the natural and encouraged approach of D&D 3.X, and is also best served by a mid-range to generous point buy approach with scrupulous players. Random This is the antithesis of choice; just like some people are strong or fast or clever, you play what you're dealt. Character creation tends to involve a distinct lack of choice on the part of the player, where choice tends to serve the role of smoothing out irregularities. For example, I've played a WWII army-themed game system where almost every part of character creation was dependent upon a roll or otherwise out of your control; you might get to choose which languages you spoke or what military role you were best at, but there was no way to control how good you were at anything. This often can provoke more fresh and natural roleplaying, if for no other reason than just about every other part of the game was out of your control and you were almost guranteed to have something significant about your character that you didn't expect. This is a good approach for pick-up games, and can help as a change of pace or an attempt to rekindle interest in gaming with players that have become bored or jaded. With a random approach, characters will not be equal, but that's not the point. This is the game where you don't have 4 Han Solos, but rather have an old man, a backwater kid, two droids, a renegade princess, a smuggler, and a wookie. Rolling is a natural start here, but rolling for class, alignment, deity, or anything else is a possibility, as are simply handing out pregenerated characters. Challenge This is an approach where you not only care about choice, but about achievement. This is similar to the Choice method, but instead of the starting point being who you want your characters to be, the focus is on what you want them to do. This doesn't eliminate good roleplaying, but if there is a choice between a feat that lets you fire lightning bolts from your teeth and one that fits your existing concept, you tend to go with the lightning. If there is one thing that is necessary to this approach, it's planning, to make sure that each character has everything in place to select desired options as soon as they become available. Point buy helps here for the same reasons it helps making a character to a concept - you can make what you want, and you can make it before game time to do the proper planning. The even footing of point buy also helps, because there tends to be more competition between players about the performance of their characters. Organic The organic approach is to have characters abilities and talents grow to reflect their specific experiences over time. Example, a rogue that goes a whole adventure without seeing a door won't get better at picking locks, but a group that spends an adventure cutting their way through the deep jungle may all get better at survival, regardless of class. It can help here to start characters with modest stats, be it a low point buy or a less generous rolling method, and to provide more frequent ability increases to allow characters to "grow up" over several levels. D&D doesn't naturally help this approach; choosing your class at each level based upon how your character feels and what they did tends to produce weaker, if not unplayable, characters over time. Still, there is a lot to be said for trying.
Kensan_Oni 12-13-06, 07:01 PM	Hmm... I've used the alternative point buy system in Iron Heroes. That was neat. In the OLD OLD Days, back when D&D didn't have a number after it, we used the 3d6/1d12 method of rolling dice. YOu would roll 3d6+1d12, and then take either what you rolled on the 3d6, or one of the d6's and a d12. It worked out pretty well. Your rolles tended to be on average, with some real high numbers, and a much better chance of rolling an 18... of course, occasinally I was really tempted to take a 2, cause I could. :D There was also the Roll d8+8 method. You ended up with a lot of slightly above average scores, and no 18's. I didn't like this too much. Was a lot wonky. There was also the 2d8+4 method. That wasn't much better. Another disaster was the if you role a 6, you get to roll again and add method. That was just plain annoying. There was the you have 80 points to put into your stats. No point buy, you got them on a one for one basis. Averages 13 Stats with a remainder of 2. That was under 2nd Edition, where the numbers didn't really matter till you hit a 14 or better, though. That's all I can recall at the moment.
taski 12-13-06, 08:01 PM	In my game, we roll 5d6 drop lowest, choose which stat a roll goes to, and move points around on a one to one basis... So there is plenty of choice, but the roll determines your point total.
efraker 12-13-06, 08:53 PM	I'm really fond of the Three Dragon Ante based method from Dragon magazine issue #346 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2006/346). It's point buy, in that all characters have the same quality of stats, but it's randomized, in that they don't get to decide where they go. I'm currently playing a bard with stats of 16 18 12 14 10 14 (weird point buy) generated with this method. It's fun, equitable, and brings back the excitement of random allocation.
shadowfox628 12-13-06, 10:01 PM	Most of the time, I use the "4d6, drop the lowest" method. However, I see too many inequalities, then. Some PCs feel gipped off if they don't get lucky rolls. I then feel bad because their character can't play to an extent that the others can. Recently, I just pre-assigned base stats, my favorite being: 18,16, 14, 12, 10, and 8. Everyone has the same stats and can place them in any stat they wish, so they can still customize everything to their taste. It's easy, simple, and you won't get that PC who will continue to roll until s/he gets the score s/he wants.
Rahlious 12-13-06, 10:30 PM	We're playing crazy dnd! We are rolling 3d6, not 4d6 drop the lowest. And we are assigning the stats in order. After rolling the 6 stats, we roll a 7th "floating" stat that we can use to replace one of our stats. And, the last step is that we're allowed to swap one pair of stats. Here's what I got: Str: 11, Dex: 8, Con: 11, Int: 12, Wis: 13, Cha: 13, Float: 8 Since the float is 8, it's useless. We're playing an Eberron campaign and the best thing I've come up with so far is a halfing rogue with healing dragonmark (Jorasco). That was accomplished by switching the dex and cha scores. Str: 9, Dex: 15 , Con: 11, Int: 12, Wis: 13, Cha: 8 Pretty awful, don't you think? :(
Wynde 12-14-06, 08:09 AM	Thanks for all the ideas everyone. I'm thinking of doing something like this: Everyone rolls their 6 stats, proably 4d6 drop the lowest dice. Then, each person gets to keep the highest number they rolled. All the other numbers go up for grabs and we go around the room and choose them one at a time. It still lets them all roll. And if they get super lucky, and get an 18, they still get to enjoy that. But other than that, the scores end up divided fairly evenly around the room, giving everyone a bit more balanced characters.
Andorxor 12-14-06, 09:00 AM	Here is a thread about creative character creation methods: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=747191
Nytmare 12-14-06, 10:24 AM	We use a 29 point array with a bit of a twist. Stats run from 17 to 7, and no two characters can share the same high, or low stat. When a character dies, their high and low stats are kept off limits for the new character, so that players can't just run a carbon copy of the dead guy. It really helps establish individual roles within the party, not just based off of what the characters' strengths are, but also around their weaknesses.
Sunic_Flames 12-14-06, 04:05 PM	I use a hybrid method, adapted from one used by my old DM. Step 1: Roll 6 sets of 4d6 and drop lowest 1, as normal for that method. Step 2: Do not assign as normal, instead add the totals together. Step 3: Roll one more set of 4d6, this time drop the lowest 3. Step 4: Add the numbers from the previous 2 steps together. Step 5: Use the combined total for 1:1 point buys on stats which start at 0. So 10 = 10, 11 = 11, 15 = 15... you get the idea. Stats must be at least 3-8 (DM's call) and cannot be higher than 18. Overall this method results in roughly the same as a typical 4d6 drop lowest or a standard point buy, but is more customizable than either. For higher powered variants, do steps 1 and 2 2 or more times and use the highest result for the rest of it. Multiple rerolls get a bit out of hand though, old DM allowed 6 and take the highest... which gave a typical point value in the 80s or 90s. Which means 14-15 across the board, or multiple 18s with several average or better stats. Just doing it once though averages 12-13s across the board, or higher and lower stats equaling the same total. Which again is the same as a standard point buy or rolling.
justdmjeff 12-15-06, 12:52 AM	4 players. Roll 4d6 drop lowest. Player 1: 12,12,17,18,15,17 58 point-buy Player 2: 12,14,16,14,8,11 29 point-buy Player 3: 15,10,13,10,8,8 17 point-buy Player 4: 16,13,8,9,8,11 19 point-buy All the stats get put on the big board and now you get to draft your stats. Player 1 get the first pick in the draft based on his better rolling Then player 2, then 4, then 3. Player 1 drafts 18. Player 2 drafts 17. Player 4 drafts 17. Player 3 drafts 16. Now this is a snake draft. Which means that now player 3 picks, then 4, then 2, then 1. Final draft results. Player 1: 18,14,14,11,10,8 33 point-buy Player 2: 17,15,13,11,10,8 31 point-buy Player 4: 17,15,13,12,9,8 31-point-buy Player 3: 16,16,12,12,8,8 28 point-buy I hope that I added the point-buys up correctly, as I do not have my DMG handy and I went from memory to get the numbers. Before anyone says that player 1 got screwed, player 1 knew the rules going in and is mature enough to accept the situation. (Man , I'll never roll that good again in my life.) Now one thing that still needs to be worked out, what do you do with anything rolled under 8. Do you just put anything under 8 to 8 or do you do something else? Luckily for my example I didn't roll anything under 8.
Boshi 12-15-06, 01:16 AM	For random and balanced characters: 1. Pick a point buy value. 2. Have the players pick what stat to roll for when, i.e. "I'm rolling for stregth now" 3. Roll 4d6 drop the lowest for five stats. Record the point buy value of each stat (stats below 8 count as negative, for example a 6 would be -2 point value and a 3 would be -5 point value) 4. For the last stat assign it a value from 8 to 18 that would bring the total point buy in line with your chosen point buy value. 5. If you get to 8 or 18 and the point buy value is still too low/high adjust the 5th stat up or down etc. It's completely random but completely balanced :) If you want to make things a bit easier maybe let the player swap two or more stats. For example: Rolling for a 28 Point Buy value: Roll 4d6 for the first 5 stats in any order that I choose: Int: 14 Dex: 17 Str: 8 Cha: 11 Con: 14 and then assign the 6th stat a 8 (8 Wis) Voila! A balanced random character!
justdmjeff 12-15-06, 01:44 AM	For random and balanced characters: 1. Pick a point buy value. 2. Have the players pick what stat to roll for when, i.e. "I'm rolling for stregth now" 3. Roll 4d6 drop the lowest for five stats. Record the point buy value of each stat (stats below 8 count as negative, for example a 6 would be -2 point value and a 3 would be -5 point value) 4. For the last stat assign it a value from 8 to 18 that would bring the total point buy in line with your chosen point buy value. 5. If you get to 8 or 18 and the point buy value is still too low/high adjust the 5th stat up or down etc. It's completely random but completely balanced :) If you want to make things a bit easier maybe let the player swap two or more stats. For example: Rolling for a 28 Point Buy value: Roll 4d6 for the first 5 stats in any order that I choose: Int: 14 Dex: 17 Str: 8 Cha: 11 Con: 14 and then assign the 6th stat a 8 (8 Wis) Voila! A balanced random character! That's pretty darn good actually. One question though. Don't you think that a 3 would be worth more than -5? I mean if 18 is worth 16 then the opposite end of the spectrum should be worth more than -5. I read this system somewhere. 7----1 6----3 5----5 4----8 3----11
Boshi 12-15-06, 01:57 AM	Don't you think that a 3 would be worth more than -5? Not really, most players with that low of a stat would avoid doing anything that relates to that stat. For example having 3 Charisma isn't THAT much more of a penalty than 8, in both cases you'd just let someone else do the talking. The only real exception to this would be Con :)
BW0222 12-15-06, 10:14 PM	Wynde >So all arguing about preferences aside, what I'm really >interested in are alternate character creation/ability score >generation methods that you guys have used and like. >I don't care if they are point buy, array, rolling, or something >else, I'm just trying to examine some alternatives. Point buy's basic charm is that all PC are equal. Bad/good luck doesn't haunt you for months. Honestly, the difference of 4 ability points is almost an EL adjustment. With rolling, someone always rolls better than someone else. Even if you allow others to re-roll, some PCs are just always ahead of others. Some say rolling is fair, because everyone can roll well. That's like saying a race is fair if you randomly shoot all but one of the runners in the leg prior to the start. It might fair because everyone has the same change, but it leads to a most boring race. So, if your goal is parity between PCs and you don't wish to use a point-buy system. 1. Each player (and possibly yourself) rolls one number (4d6, top 3 or whatever) until you have 6 numbers. All players use the same stats and can order them in any order. 2. Each player rolls six stats (4d6, top 3 or whatever). You then total the numbers. All those with lower that the highest may add points up to the difference. I.e. if your total was 70 and the highest total was 80, you can add 12 points. Scores 15 and over require 2 points per point of increase. 3. DM rolls up six stats (4d6, top 3 or whatever). Players use the same stats and can order them in any order. 4. DM rolls up 10 sets of six stats (4d6, top 3 or whatever) and arranges them in order. Players select which set of stats they like, but can not reorder them. Each of the above allows rolling, but each PC begins on a level playing field.
Man in the Funny Hat 12-16-06, 03:33 AM	In original D&D the only method mentioned was 3d6 for each ability score, recorded in order. You take what you get as you get it. Some adjustment was allowed after those basic scores were recorded but only by an imbalanced sacrifice of one specified category for another, and it depended on your chosen class. For example, Magic-users could sacrifice several points of strength for points of intelligence at a rate of 3:1, fighters could sacrifice 2 points of wisdom for each point of strength, or 2 points of intelligence for a point of strength, and so forth. Looks really hardcore, and frankly it is in any version, but it WORKS in the system of original D&D because that system is shockingly simple. There were only three types of actual bonuses for ability scores: First, a high prime requisite score grants an xp bonus and (low prime requisite = penalty!); second, a Constitution higher than 14 granted bonus hit points up to +3/die at 18 (lower than 7 = 1 hp penalty); and last, a Dexterity of 13 or better grants a +1 to missile fire (8 or less a -1). That was the sum total of stat bonuses to be gained. A high strength gained you no bonuses to hit in melee. A high wisdom gained you no bonus clerical spells. Roll 3d6 twelve times, take the best six results, arrange as desired. Scores are rolled and recorded in order. 3d6 rolled six times for each ability and the highest score for each ability is kept. Scores are rolled and recorded in order using 3d6. Twelve such ability score sets are generated and the player chooses the one he likes best. Method V (from Unearthed Arcana) was only for human characters (supposedly). The player chooses his class and then consults a chart telling how many d6 to roll for any given ability score. The most was 9d6 (out of which you'd take the best 3), and ranged down one die at a time (8d6, 7d6) to a low of 3d6. If you're paying attention that's 7 ability scores not 6 because UA also introduced the Comeliness score. Furthermore, if the character did not then qualify for the class he desired his scores would simply be raised to the minimum needed to qualify. IRONMAN! Roll 3d6, in order, once for each ability score - no adjustment (except for race), no rearrangement. Roll 3d6 twice for each ability in order, keeping the better of the two rolls without further rearrangement. Six rolls of 3d6 each arranged as desired. Each ability starts at a minimum of 8. Roll 7 dice and add to stats as desired. No score can be higher than 18 and the full amount of any die must be able to be added. I.e., if you have two 6's you can't add both to the base of 8 and drop the extra 2 points in order to get an 18. An 18 is only possible by some combination of dice adding up to 10. A total of 75 points may be divided among the 6 ability scores, none lower than 3 or higher than 18. 24d6 - unrolled - are distributed among ability scores. Each stat must have at least 3d6 but no more than 6d6. Once the number of dice are assigned the dice are then actually rolled with the best 3 dice of each being used. The results are recorded in the order they were assigned. Method IX from 2nd Edition: 2d6 are rolled and the result compared to a chart to tell you how many points you can spend on your ability scores and the maximum that any one score can be. The chart was weighted somewhat so that, for example, average results on the chart allowed 74 points (total of all your ability scores) but you were perhaps limited to a 17 as your highest score. A ‘2’ would allow only 68 points but a high of 18, and a ‘12’ would allow 80 points but a maximum of only 15 for any one score. Free Choice: Not at all a common approach but some DM's simply let players choose their ability scores out of the blue. No rolling, and generally no maximums or limitations except the players own good sense about what is reasonable. Double Drop: Players make 7 rolls using the best 3 of 4d6, then drop one of the 7 and arrange as desired. Fixed Dice Pool: Each player uses the same set of 18 individual die results, adding as many of them to an ability as desired so long as no leftover points are wasted (similar to 3E Method VII) and results for all scores are between 3 and 18. A typical pool would be 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1, though it could be weighted as the DM sees fit. Randomly Generated Dice Pool: A logical modification of the Fixed Dice Pool where the 18d6 (or perhaps more or fewer dice) are rolled all at once and then combined into 6 ability scores of between 3 and 18. Dealing Cards: This method is commonly executed with playing cards though it essentially is a Dice Pool method. The way it works is that cards from a standard poker deck are used to represent dice rolls. Ace=1, deuce=2, etc. In one option there are 4 suits from ace to 6. They are shuffled and six separate "hands" of 4 cards each are dealt. The best three cards are kept in each hand and the total value of the hands equals the ability scores and they are then assigned as desired. Other options generally just alter the available pool values (and may require more than one deck of cards). For example, a pool of 1 ace, 2 deuces, 3 threes... on up to 6 sixes and then a joker or two added in. Hands of 3 cards are then dealt whose totals are the ability score values, with the joker being a "wildcard" that doubles the value of any one other card that is dealt in a given hand, or provides some other bonus effect. Another example has a single suit of cards from A-K. The King is set aside and six sets of 2 cards each are dealt for the six ability scores. Card values are A=1, 2=2... 10=10, J or Q=8, K=5. Player then assigns King as desired. Best of Both Worlds: Not really a method on its own as such but a combination of two or more random generation methods. A player uses one method to generate ability scores and then is allowed to go through using a second, often entirely different method and keeping the best results. I've seen it presented as either the players choice between the two different sets of numbers that each method creates, or generating one score at a time and keeping the best of the two results for a given ability score. Another example is allowing players to use the standard method to generate scores randomly but then if they don't like the results to opt instead for a 32 point-buy. 18 out of 21: 21d6 are rolled. The best 18 dice are kept. The remaining dice are freely combined; 3 to each ability score. Obviously modifiable to any number of d6, not just 21. Priming the Prime All scores except the prime requisite for the class are rolled with 3d6 in order. For the class prime requisite (possibly more than one) you roll 3d6 use a variant die reading method: any 1=5 and any 2=6. This boosts the average of a d6 roll up to 4.8 (from 3.5), and the average of 3d6 read this way is about 14. The 6x6 Matrix: Using best 3 of 4d6 (or strait 3d6 or whatever) generate 36 numbers putting them into a 6x6 grid. The player may then select a set of 6 ability scores by reading in a straight line anywhere on that matrix, whether that be reading a row forwards or backwards, reading a column up or down, or one of the two diagonals backwards or forwards. That gives 28 separate combinations that a player can choose from 36 generated scores. Mirror Method: Make three stat rolls using best 3 of 4d6. For the last three stats subtract your first sets of rolls from 25. Maximum of 18 on any stat So, if you roll an 18 one of your stats will be 7 (25 minus 18). 7 will be the lowest mirror score you'll get from a high initial roll. But if you roll a 7 or LOWER your corresponding stat from that will be 18, making 18's much more common. I'd personally consider adjusting this due to the increased number of 18's that are certain to be generated. Maybe subtract from 23 instead of 25. 18's will still be more likely than they otherwise would except that there would also be the low-end of having stats of 5 to go along with them. There is the assumption here that scores would be arranged as desired after being rolled, but that could also be changed to spice it up more. For example, as part of the generation process you could have players determine two stats at a time. They would pick any two stats, roll dice, and then assign the roll and the mirror result to their choice of the two stats. Or they could pick THREE stats that they will roll dice for in order, and then apply the mirror stats for those rolls as desired among the remaining three. Yet another variation on the method would be that rather than rolling dice at all the player simply PICKS his desired stats and the associated mirror results so that even if a player does pick super-high stats they're guaranteed to get low-grade mirror stats to offset them. When subtracting from 25 to get the mirror you have to pick stats of 15 or lower in order to not get ANY stats with a penalty. Die Replacement Therapy: One die is replaced with 6 points. That is, roll 2d6+6 for each stat. Either you can use it with free arrangement or take it in order. Random Bonus Addition: Stats are assumed to be 10 as a base, or more accurately – that they provide no bonus. Roll 6d6. The results of each die indicate which one of the attributes is increased to provide an additional BONUS from that attribute. So, a '1' means Strength is increased to provide a +1 bonus (that is, it must be a 12 Str.), a '2' means +1 to your Dex and a corresponding increase to your actual Dex attribute, and so on. If a roll makes a score go beyond 18, re-roll that die. This method has the "advantage" of utterly eliminating the possibility of a negative score. It has the disadvantage of creating characters that are inadequate for a specific class - if you don't roll any 1's or 2's your Str and Dex are not increased and you have a poor fighter if that's what character you wanted. A variation on this is for the DM to predetermine a given value for the total of bonuses such as 7, 9 or 11 depending on the desired power level. Players then choose their stats freely so long as the total of bonus values is not exceeded. Tic-Tac-Toe Grid: A standard 3x3 grid is made with Str, Dex, Con on one edge, Int, Wis, and Cha on the other. 4d6 are then rolled (or the usual variations thereof) nine times to fill the grid. The player then selects 6 out of the 9 possible scores from either the appropriate row or column for the given stat. Each roll can only be used once so, for example, if you have an 18 in the center square you could use it ONLY for Dex or Wis, but not both. High-, Mid-, Low-Priority: The player chooses 2 high-, 2 mid- and 2 low-priority stats based on what kind of character he’s aiming for. For the high stats he rolls 5d6, the mid 4d6 and the low 3d6 each (best 3 dice each as usual). These are rolled and recorded in order with no swap or trades. Take what you get first and every time. Gambling With the Dealer: Player rolls 4d6 and DM rolls 4d6 secretly. Player then looks at his own roll and decides to either take that roll or go with the dealers (DM’s) result instead. Repeat once for each stat. Stat Auction: The DM creates a variety of different arrays that need not be of similar "power" levels. Players are given an XP value and then bid on the arrays with their XP. Leftover XP are awarded to the PC when play begins. It seems like a lot of variations should be possible with this. Bidding with XP debt instead of a fixed amount of bonus XP springs to mind. Arrays don’t need to be too balanced with each other as players will naturally decide what the stats are worth to them. The amount of XP initially awarded can be increased or decreased to allow for higher bidding. BAR Method (Base Assigned Random): All stats have a BASE value of 6. Players roll 6d6 and ASSIGN the individual die results anywhere as desired. Players then roll one additional RANDOM d6 once for each stat in order. For more player control switch the last two steps so that the players Assigned results are done after the Random results are known. Another variant makes it the BARB Method (BAR+Bonus): Total the ability scores. If 78 or greater: No bonus points. 72 – 77: 2 bonus points. 66 – 71: 4 bonus points. 60 – 65: 6 bonus points. 54 – 59: 8 bonus points. 48 - 54: 10 bonus points. Add bonus points as desired including exceeding 18’s. Hard Work and Luck Standard 4d6 generation is used. Players may generate as many characters as they like but each must be a fully filled-out, completely kitted and ready-to-play character sheet. Keep the one you want – the rest go to the DM. That's the Hard Work part. The Luck part is that PC’s also get a Luck stat that is reduced for every PC they create but DON’T use. I.e., taking one of your first characters gets you a better Luck score, but to keep going in search of that ultimate set of stats means your PC will get progressively crappier Luck. Some common modifications to all methods pop up repeatedly, mostly to the various random generation methods. Re-rolling of die results of 1. This is often extended to the entire campaign where players are allowed to re-roll results of 1 on most, if not all of the dice throws they make for ANY purpose. Re-rolling any single die at some point improves chances, re-rolling one entire score improves them even more. Free assignment of the rolls may be rescinded. The strictest methods have players recording the rolls in order. A slight variation is to Assign-As-You-Go. In the latter case, as each ability score is generated the player must immediately assign it to an ability score of his choice. Thus the player must gamble on what his remaining dice rolls may or may not produce in assigning a result. If the player gets a result of 15 does he put it into a prime requisite for the class or something else as he gambles on getting an even higher result with later rolls? Minimums can be set for any method. The 3E default is that a character may be re-rolled if before adjusting for race there is no score above 13 or the ability mods add up to 0 or less. But it's easy to add to or adjust those standards. For example, it could be added that no score may be below 9. Scores that are below 9 could either simply become 9, allow a re-roll of that ability score only, or allow re-rolling the entire character. Instead of needing at least one score above 13 or mods above 0, it could be at least one score above 14 and mods totaling more than +3. Instead of 4d6 use best 2 of 3d10, 5d4-2, 1d20 or some other such means of making the rolls. Instead of d6's, other dice or combinations of dice can be used. Possibilities include something as simple as replacing one d6 with a d8 when rolling for a primary ability score for your intended class or in attempting to manipulate the bell curve. For example instead of 3d6 use 1d10+2d4. You still get a range of 3-18 but weighted much more heavily to average. Or simply using 3d8 instead of 3d6 to make rolls and using a cutoff of 18 you get much higher averages without completely sacrificing the possibility of low scores. Use more or fewer dice. Simply looking over the list of methods you can see that methods can be altered significantly by rolling 4 dice instead of 3 and then just taking the 3 best, using 25 dice and taking the best 18 rather than just 18. A combination of methods or parts of methods can also be done - rolling more times, with more dice, with re-rolls, with minimum die results, with full or partial rearrangement, etc.
Bahamut_the_Gold 12-16-06, 03:45 AM	In 2nd Ed Player's Handbook all PCs were described as having "above average ability scores". The same book went on to say farmers, merchants, etc had ability scores of 10 or lower. Now, taking this into account I have a pretty simple way of having my PCs roll up their abilities. All scores are base 10 (Average). A 1d8 is rolled and added to each base 10 score giving above average scores. The players can then place the scores in whichever ability they want. This may allow the PCs to have killer stats but in the long run it won't make that much of a diff. Simple, elegant and to the point.
DracoPhoenix 12-16-06, 06:00 AM	I think it comes down to the group. Allowing them to pick their own stats (even with only 1x16/17 as your highest) with a group of powergaming munchkins is asking for 15,15,15,15,15,17. While the same option for a "mature" RP group could just as likely result in 8,10,12,14,15,17. My £0.02 abyway
pierow37 12-16-06, 08:05 AM	My favroite way to balance states out is to do this: The Jenas Method You can choose one for each stat from:2d6+4, 3d6, 3d6+1, 4d6, 4d6+3, 5d6-4) And scores cannot go over 18, 1's are re-rolled. Also, after everthing is said and done, you may add 1 extra point to ONE stat. Before the roll is made, you must assign what you want the rolls to be repusenting. Also, runover stats, Lets say you get a 21. For every three run over stats, one extra point may be added to the lowest stat. And all runover stats are rudeced to 18. Stats below 8, are rerolled. (IE. Redgar is rolling for str, because he is a fighter he wants a high str. So because of this he chooses either 5d6-4, or 4d6+3. 4d6+3 is more reliable, so he goes with that. he rolls a 4, 5, 3, 2. This adds up to 14 +3 which equals 17. so he assigns a 17 for his str. If he wants to make this a 18, because his other stats are OK, then he can add another one point at the ened creating an 18.) Thats is my favorite methoed, allowing a mix between random and assigned. and i would also love private messages about it because i won't be able to check the boards too often.