Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mike the DM 08-22-04, 10:15 AM	I'm considering an alternate Earth fantasy campaign setting, and I'm wondering what kind of experiences others have had in doing this. Did playing on Earth detract from the fantastic feel of the game? Did you allow races other than humans for PCs? Did you create an alternate history for Earth, or go with the countries and historical figures we know today from our own past (Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire, Charlemagne and the Franks, Saladin and the Crusades, and so on)? Did you modify the magic rules to make it "lower magic?" Were all of the core classes in use? Your replies and opinions would be appreciated.
Art_Tillary 08-22-04, 10:31 AM	Well, alternative Earht novels generally start with a specific spot where the time line split from ours. Somebody dies, or does not die; some invention isn't made, etc. The story doesn't have to be set near the time of the split, but it's usually mentioned at least in passing. That's how the author explains why things are as they are. Here is website devoted to alternative time stories: Uchronia: The Alternative History List (http://www.uchronia.net/) If you are looking at using magic you will need to develop a time line for the history of magic. When was is invented? When were specific spells invented? Presumably magic didn't show up with all the spells at a single time. Those spells will have an effect on what has happened. Alternatively you can essentially eliminate magic from the setting. Maybe half a dozen people in all of Europe can do magic, and at best they can do 2nd level spells. Magic items will be almost unheard of. Do you have a time period you'd like to run and a feel you want? Maybe the year 2000 where the Roman Empire never fell? (There is a neat book for that setting). AT
Mike the DM 08-22-04, 04:57 PM	The setting will be late 16th or early 17th century, as European explorers discover a New World in which Atlanteans live in remote cities, Norse settlers occupy the Great Lakes, and the island of California is home to sabretooth cats and giant sloths, where the indigenous people have long had contact with Chinese sailors and Polynesian islanders, the classical monsters of Greek myth survived the fall of Atlantis, and ancient Egyptians established colonies. I'm leaning toward using d20 Modern, actually, as the classes are balanced without magic and the overall level of magic is much lower - however, I'm interested in approaches taken to deal with this issue using the D&D rules as well. That looks like an interesting website - thanks for the link.
DeWayne 08-22-04, 05:31 PM	It sounds like an interesting setting. I'd allow only those races that you need to have in the world. For example, I don't see anything in your write up that would include Elves, Halflings, etc. but you would have Centaurs, Satyrs and the like. In 'alternative history' settings I've ran I've found that you really got to keep magic to a minimum or it completely changes the 'Earth' feel of the setting. This doesn't mean you shouldn't allow it. If you look at the 'real world' magic systems from that time frame & copy them it shouldn't be too bad. A European ceremonial magician with an altar set up in is study, or a native shaman drumming & chanting for hours to get an effect won't screw things up nearly as badly as having people running around tossing off fireballs. I assume the Norse, Egyptian, etc. colonies are 'lost colonies.' Otherwise there would be no 'discovery' of the New World by 16th & 17th century explorer - the New World would be Old News. This brings up the question of how all of the various groups living in North America are going to have effected each other over the centuries. I think it would be really unlikely that the Indians would be anywhere near as primitive as they were in the real world.
Mike the DM 08-22-04, 05:46 PM	Originally posted by DeWayne It sounds like an interesting setting. I'd allow only those races that you need to have in the world. For example, I don't see anything in your write up that would include Elves, Halflings, etc. but you would have Centaurs, Satyrs and the like.I'm considering elves and dwarves among the Norse peoples of the Great Lakes, but no gnomes, halflings, orcs, and so on. Lizardfolk will be "Lemurians" who survived along with the Atlanteans. Harpies, medusae, basilisks, and so on will be among the monsters, as will nature spirits (from OA) which provide the bulk of the "native" New World monsters. I'm also considering some survivors of Avalon that also made their way across the ocean - dark elves perhaps, sprites for sure, maybe leshay. I'm also looking for other critters from North and South American mythology.Originally posted by DeWayne In 'alternative history' settings I've ran I've found that you really got to keep magic to a minimum or it completely changes the 'Earth' feel of the setting. This doesn't mean you shouldn't allow it. If you look at the 'real world' magic systems from that time frame & copy them it shouldn't be too bad. A European ceremonial magician with an altar set up in is study, or a native shaman drumming & chanting for hours to get an effect won't screw things up nearly as badly as having people running around tossing off fireballs.That's exactly the feel I'm trying for - under the influences of the Church magic has somewhat died out in Europe, making its practice heretical and therefore secretive. The Occultist class from d20M is perfect for this.Originally posted by DeWayne I assume the Norse, Egyptian, etc. colonies are 'lost colonies.' Otherwise there would be no 'discovery' of the New World by 16th & 17th century explorer - the New World would be Old News. This brings up the question of how all of the various groups living in North America are going to have effected each other over the centuries. I think it would be really unlikely that the Indians would be anywhere near as primitive as they were in the real world. Cahokia will be a thriving empire in the Mississippi River Valley, the Seven Cities of Cibola are truly filled with gold, and did I mention the Fountain of Youth? The Norse, Atlantean, and Egyptian colonies are all relatively small in size and long ago lost touch with their forbears in the Old World. The Vikings explored the St. Lawrence River when their settlements in Vinland came under attack - the dwarves are the preeminent copper craftsfolk of this alternate history. The Atlanteans have retreated deep into the Amazon rain forest (and yes, there will be actual Amazon warriors there, too) while the small Egyptian colonies cling to the coast.
Art_Tillary 08-22-04, 06:21 PM	So your Europe as of 1492 is the same as the originial time line. The only addition I'm seeing so far is the Occultist class. I'm not familiar with d20 Modern. Is it correct to assume that mages & clerics rarely cast spells? Or at least ones that are "flashy". As DeWayne mentioned, clearly visiable magic messes things up quickly. Sounds interesting. Also have to determine why the people in the America's didn't contact Europe. In the originial time line they didn't have the tech level to do so. What are you going to do with the Native Americans? Especially if the Atlanteans have a decent tech level, and have had it for 1,000s of years. AT
Mike the DM 08-22-04, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by Art_Tillary Is it correct to assume that mages & clerics rarely cast spells? Or at least ones that are "flashy". As DeWayne mentioned, clearly visiable magic messes things up quickly. None of the base classes in d20 Modern can cast spells - all of the magic-using classes are PrCs, which in and of itself makes magic rare. Then you have a Church with an Inquisition to hunt down witches and magi, which makes arcane magic even more rare. Divine magic is manifest miracles of course, unless it's used for purposes other than the advancement of the faith, in which case that's blasphemous, too. Remember that people in that period still believed in magic, so an occasional fireball wouldn't be too out of the question. The goal is to make it rare and perhaps a bit feared, not a total secret.Originally posted by Art_Tillary Also have to determine why the people in the America's didn't contact Europe. In the originial time line they didn't have the tech level to do so.The Vikings are cut off by an unnavigable river and have settled into their new lives along the lakes. The Atlanteans have chosen to remain in hiding for the most part, after a disastrous attempt to conquer the Incas. The Egyptians never acheived much of a hold in the New World, and due to warfare with the Lemurians and the aboriginal tribes of South America simply lost the navigational knowledge to challenge the sea and return to Africa.Originally posted by Art_Tillary What are you going to do with the Native Americans? Especially if the Atlanteans have a decent tech level, and have had it for 1,000s of years. As noted above, the Atlanteans have chose to remain aloof from the American aborigines, so while little bits of Bronze Age tech are scattered here and there, they never had a huge impact on the development of the native peoples. As I mentioned, the tribes of the Mississippi Valley are the strongest in North America, with a vast agricultural empire. The Iroquois Confederacy is still present in the northeast, locked in a struggle with the Avalonians. The southeast of North America is dominated by various warlike tribes, while the Great Plains got the horse earlier but otherwise remain similar to their real-world analogs. The tribes of the Southwest are richer but have similar lifeways, while the tribes of the Great Basin are just as poor as the actual peoples who lived there. The humans of California are extremely primitive, still living in isolation from the other tribes and making do with Stone Age technology. The tribes of the Pacific Northwest have had contact with China and India, but not enough to influence their lifeways significantly. The great empires of the Aztecs and Incas have still been conqured by the Spanish - the Aztecs were embroiled in civil war when the conquistadors arrived and the Incas were weakened by war with the Atlanteans, making it possible for the Spanish to seize control of the empire. The Mayans are the most heavily altered in this alternate Earth - they've been at war with the kuo-toa for centuries, and are losing, badly.
Mike the DM 08-23-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by Art_Tillary So your Europe as of 1492 is the same as the originial time line. I sorta skipped over this the first time. In my timeline, magic and monsters have been always been a part of the world. However, three events in European history contributed to its rarity relative to the rest of the world: (1) the rise of rational thinking and technology, (2) the banning of many cults by the ancestor-worhipping Romans, followed by (3) the Holy Church and its declaration of magic as heresy. This makes Europe a place with less magic, and most of its monsters have been eliminated or are so scarce as to to be rarely encountered and therefore passing into folklore. So magic has always been present, but its practitioners have been persecuted one way or another. Atlantis sinks beneath the waves, and its survivors withdraw into isolation. The Vikings in the New World cling to the old ways while their kin in Scandanavia are modernized. The Egyptian colonies are refuges of the great dynasties before the ascension of the Ptolemeys. The Avalonians are the survivors of Roman purges and their own strife between faerie courts. And the aboriginal Americans still venerate the spirits that teem in the landscape. It's into this New World that our European adventurers - explorers, privateers, soldiers, priests - are thrust. So I guess it's 1492 and then some.
Art_Tillary 08-23-04, 08:07 AM	Why would the Romans have banned cults? Off the top of my head such a ban would be a major change, possibly even enough to delay the fall, or prevent the fall, of the Empire. No fall of the Empire, no rise of Christianity. On top of that, the possible extinction of Christianity prior to it becomeing a major social and political and economic force. Declaring magic a heresy is nothing new. No problems, although clearly demonstrable magical healing would be much tougher to ban. Way to useful. Their are kings and senior clergy that would want it. How does rational thinking and tech drive out magic? It drove it out in our time because magic could not be shown to work consistently. If I can visiably heal somebody in a way that 1500's medicane can't that's pretty good proof magic works. Same for fireball or lightning bolt. I"m thinking that the Egyptians would have tried to recreate their way of life in the New World. Major hydraulic empire that was densely populated with decent bronze age tech. The Vikings are fairly recent, so I could see that. What river is not navigiable to them? AT
Mike the DM 08-23-04, 12:03 PM	Originally posted by Art_Tillary Why would the Romans have banned cults? Off the top of my head such a ban would be a major change, possibly even enough to delay the fall, or prevent the fall, of the Empire. No fall of the Empire, no rise of Christianity. On top of that, the possible extinction of Christianity prior to it becomeing a major social and political and economic force.If you recall, Rome became a Christian empire - in this alternate timeline, it actively suppressed shamanic traditions of the other peoples of Europe, a practice continued by the Church after the fall of Rome.Originally posted by Art_Tillary Declaring magic a heresy is nothing new. No problems, although clearly demonstrable magical healing would be much tougher to ban. Way to useful. Their are kings and senior clergy that would want it.Think about the 'miracles' performed by the saints - those would be examples of divine (in most cases) magic at work. However, if the same act was performed by someone outside the Church, well, that could easily be construed as witchcraft.Originally posted by Art_Tillary How does rational thinking and tech drive out magic? It drove it out in our time because magic could not be shown to work consistently. If I can visiably heal somebody in a way that 1500's medicane can't that's pretty good proof magic works. Same for fireball or lightning bolt.Technology makes the effects of magic available without the study, dedication to a deity or ideal, and so on - not everyone can peform magic, but anyone can run a pump or apply an herbal salve or whatever. Again, this is a world where only divine magic in the service of the Church is accepted - everything else is suspect. Originally posted by Art_Tillary I'm thinking that the Egyptians would have tried to recreate their way of life in the New World. Major hydraulic empire that was densely populated with decent bronze age tech. The Vikings are fairly recent, so I could see that. What river is not navigiable to them?The Egyptians don't find anything like home in South America, so what they're used to doesn't work. The flooding of the Nile each year is almost as regular as the rising and setting of the sun - contrast that with Mesopotamia, and the highly variable Tigris and Euphrates. The Egyptians in the New World found themselves fighting Lemurians and aboriginal humans and in the process they lose the leaders of their society - as a result, certain knowledge is lost to the colonists, including the ability to get home safely, so they're stuck trying to make do and living on the memory of former greatness. The St. Lawrence River is blocked by cataracts which the Vikings had to portage - in the real world, without extensive locks and canals it's not possible to sail a ship from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean. Pressed by the Avalonians who chased them out of Vinland, they make their way up the river, discover the lakes, and decide this looks like a better place than anything behind them.
Mike the DM 08-23-04, 12:26 PM	Now that I've hopefully answered more than enough questions about the setting idea itself, I'm still looking for advice on how to do this using the D&D rules. I know I can make it work using d20 Modern, but if you've tried something like this with 3.x, please let me know.
Art_Tillary 08-23-04, 01:19 PM	I think you are going to have to ditch Elves coming from Europe with the Norse and staying in the Great Lakes region. They are too long lived, and will presumably want to return at some point to Europe to visit relatives. The ST. Lawrence is difficult to travel, but not impossible. You can portage a Viking style ship, even if in parts, to the navigable seaway. Elves that want to do so would do so. Humans and maybe dwarves could forget in a generation or two about Europe. So anything to do with Elves in the D&D rules is out as living in the Americas. Maybe living in Europe is OK. You will want to limit the magic items to keep the power level down. If the bad guys don't have magic it won't matter as much if the PCs don't have magic. You may want to institute rules that using magic means having to be a multi-class from the start, at least for Europeans. Since magic in your world is going to be outlawed, mages will need a cover occupation. Mage / fighter most likely. I don't see Paladins or Rangers being an option for Europeans. Not much sense since they are in some ways tied into a social setting. I might have more later, along with some responses to your ohter post on history. AT
Mike the DM 08-23-04, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by Art_Tillary I think you are going to have to ditch Elves coming from Europe with the Norse and staying in the Great Lakes region. They are too long lived, and will presumably want to return at some point to Europe to visit relatives. The ST. Lawrence is difficult to travel, but not impossible. You can portage a Viking style ship, even if in parts, to the navigable seaway. Elves that want to do so would do so. Humans and maybe dwarves could forget in a generation or two about Europe. So anything to do with Elves in the D&D rules is out as living in the Americas. Maybe living in Europe is OK.The elves want to go back to visit their relatives? Says who?!? Perhaps they left BECAUSE they don't like their relatives, or because some giant called them rude names, or because one of them owes this guy some money...there can be any of a dozen or more reasons why the Norse elves have chosen to pursue their lives in the New World and not the Old. That's hardly an insurmountable hurdle. Art, I rarely follow canon (or dogma, if you will) when it comes to the core rules - they're a starting point, not an endpoint, and I don't pay the slightest bit of attention to what WotC's novelists write. The Norse elves will be every bit their dwarf and human counterparts in terms of Viking culture, while the Avalonian elves will be something else entirely, sinister, manipulative, imperious, and highly magical. Sea-going traffic was stopped at the Lachine Rapids for centuries, which helped turn Montreal into an important entrepot. But all of that's irrelevant, since this is an alternate Earth, and if I need to put Niagra Falls on the St. Lawrence River, I can. Remember, it's not only navigation issues - it's the Avalonians pushing them and the Great Lakes pulling them.Originally posted by Art_Tillary You will want to limit the magic items to keep the power level down. If the bad guys don't have magic it won't matter as much if the PCs don't have magic. You may want to institute rules that using magic means having to be a multi-class from the start, at least for Europeans. Since magic in your world is going to be outlawed, mages will need a cover occupation. Mage / fighter most likely.Given that a wizard could make a decent cover using knowledge skills (navigator, naturalist, etc.), I don't know that multi-classing is really necessary, nor would I consider 'requiring' it. All of this is pointing away from using 3.x and toward using Modern, though. Part of the point of course is that the Europeans are entering a world unlike their own, where magic is more prevalent. I'm not worried about writing encounters that present a reasonable challenge - I want to make sure I'm using the rules set that allows me the flexibility necessary to create the setting. Originally posted by Art_Tillary You I don't see Paladins or Rangers being an option for Europeans. Not much sense since they are in some ways tied into a social setting. I'm not sure if I follow you exactly - the paladins were Charlemagne's knights, and I don't know how much more European you could get than that. However, it's a moot point, since I don't use alignment, so there are no paladins anywho. In any event, both are magic-using classes, so I'd probably run a spell-less variant or not allow them.
Art_Tillary 08-24-04, 08:23 AM	Well, you have answered the internal logical question of why the the Norse elves wouldn't, during a 500 year period, not want to visit friends and relatives. BTW, it was a presumption, not a requirement. Something that a player might ask or want to do. "HI, I"m a young elf. My mother and father moved to the America's 500 years ago from Europe. Hey, let's do an adventure of seeing my cousins! " Doesn't require any meta-gaming by the player's character to know about Europe. Presumably the Avalonians have some sort of base in the area where real world Montreal is? A mage navigator sounds good. It's the point that I don't see a mage supporting themselves as a mage. Most people I've heard of don't do much with skills so far as having an occupation that's not an adventurer. My assumption was that a Paladin is not a Paladin unless they have the spell capability. Hence, you would not have a Christian knightly order that casts spells. If they don't cast spells they are a knightly order based on the standard fighter. BTW, European clerics would be an issue also. I doubt they'd have anywhere near the amount, variety or max levels of spells as standard D&D. Since the Americas is going to have more magic that is going to be interesting. I wonder how the numerous European churches will react. Or more importantly, European clerics who are faced with it. AT