Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ajb47 05-04-05, 05:20 PM	I am about to start DMing a new mostly homebrewed campaign. The campaign combines elements of Scarred Lands (Titanswar), Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (First Ones, Dragon Kings, Rebellion), a little Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved (Herald of Annihilation as final enemy) and Forgotten Realms (I like Regional Feats). As in SoIaF, there is an heir to the High King's throne running around, however, he is rather evil. IMC, the Dragon Kings used a modified Dragon Orb to control their dragons when they took over -- it isn't statted fully yet, but it can control any dragon and slowly kills them when they are controlled. There are two on the continent the campaign takes place in and the Heir has found one (basically his birthright). The good dragons have the other locked away, but smashing the two Orbs together will destroy them. There are very few dragons left and they are rightfully afraid of going anywhere near one of these Orbs, but they know someone must do something. I have planned an ancient silver dragon, becoming a Diviner in alternate form, gathers and tests the PC's skills and their -- moral outlooks I guess is the term. He wants to be as sure as he can be before handing over a Dragon Orb that they won't just turn around and use it instead of destroying the two of them. My problem is that two of my players (I have 6), have created characters that could make the Silver decide the party shouldn't have the Orb and then leave them to their fates and try to find others to use the Orb. It is not known that the Dragon Kings used an Orb to control the dragons, so it's not likely to be something easily researched and I don't want to throw in an old book somewhere that practically shouts out, "I HAVE IMPORTANT INFORMATION IN ME!" on a shelf of books about poetry and crafting jewelry. Thanks in advance for any ideas. AJ
OneSidedDice 05-04-05, 05:58 PM	How are the two characters unsuitable in the dragon's opinion? Silvers are CG, right? So are the characters evil or untrustworthy neutrals? If that's the case, why are they traveling with the remainder of the party that the silver does find suitable? It seems like if the silver wouldn't approve of them, neither would a good-aligned party the silver does favor. It may be best to take the players aside and just say something to them like, "I think I'm going to have to ask you to change your character's alignment to fit better with this campaign." It's the DM's perrogative to restrict alignments; I think most of us have played in campaigns that disallow evil characters (or sometimes chaotic neutral). Otherwise, you'll have to develop a "back door", so to speak. Maybe the PCs are found wanting by the silver, but the villains manage to attack the silver's stronghold and steal the Dragon Orb anyway. The silver has no choice but to send the PCs after it.
SearcherOmega 05-04-05, 06:23 PM	Silvers are Lawful Good. Am I to assume this test is to NG standards, LG standards, or LN standards?
ajb47 05-04-05, 06:32 PM	How are the two characters unsuitable in the dragon's opinion? Silvers are CG, right? Silvers are LG. So are the characters evil or untrustworthy neutrals? If that's the case, why are they traveling with the remainder of the party that the silver does find suitable? It seems like if the silver wouldn't approve of them, neither would a good-aligned party the silver does favor. They are both neutral, one lawful, the other chaotic. They have given themselves some tragic backgrounds. One describes his character as "cold", the other as turning his back on the society that he believes turned its back on him. And the characters have not even met yet, so the travelling together hasn't happened yet. The first adventure will be the first test by the Silver. It may be best to take the players aside and just say something to them like, "I think I'm going to have to ask you to change your character's alignment to fit better with this campaign." It's the DM's perrogative to restrict alignments; I think most of us have played in campaigns that disallow evil characters (or sometimes chaotic neutral). I always disallow evil characters in my campaigns because I am an old fuddy duddy who wants to run/play an heroic game. And I have already disallowed the LN player's first character because it didn't fit. And I cautioned against his first choice of weapon for his second character (rapier -- they are a rather new invention on the continent and he would be looked at strangely literally everywhere). And the other one can be a little touchy about his characters. I'm trying to let them play what they want. And I am not saying that they are already anti-what the Silver wants. I figure the divinations showed what could happen and the Silver wants to see what actually happens when they are tested. Otherwise, you'll have to develop a "back door", so to speak. Maybe the PCs are found wanting by the silver, but the villains manage to attack the silver's stronghold and steal the Dragon Orb anyway. The silver has no choice but to send the PCs after it. Well, I am asking for ideas for a "back door". Yours could work since I haven't decided yet whether the bad guys know there is a second Orb. And it's not at the Silver's place -- he is deathly afraid of the things. AJ
ajb47 05-04-05, 06:36 PM	Silvers are Lawful Good. Am I to assume this test is to NG standards, LG standards, or LN standards? The tests are to Good standards first, then preferably Lawful (in the Silver's eyes) but he will take Chaotic and Neutral characters if he is sure they won't use the Orb for anything other than destroying both Orbs. Considering the things can control any dragon that comes near them and will slowly kill those it controls, I can see where his extreme caution comes from. AJ
Lazzmaniandevil 05-04-05, 10:31 PM	I am not sure how exactly you could do it, but the dragon could maybe give the 2 PCs he doesn't trust some magical items. He would told them that in return, they must take an oath swearing they won't be the one touching the orb. Of course, unknown to the players, the items have a curse that will be activated if they touch the orb...
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-04-05, 11:00 PM	I think Dragons can cast this spell... Geas/Quest Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 6, Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Casting Time: 10 minutes Target: One living creature Saving Throw: None This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw. Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/ quest. A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do. Bards, sorcerers, and wizards usually refer to this spell as geas, while clerics call the same spell quest. Dragon explains everything about the Orb to PCs, then agrees to give it to them on the condition that they voluntarily fail their Will saves for a Geas. If they disagree, the Dragon kills them.
mcgreeno 05-04-05, 11:28 PM	Back Door (this is a quicky so forgive me) If the characters fail the quest that the dragon gives them, The characters find themselves through alternate adventures in moral situations.. Aka, in a small town, that the characters go too, to resupply, sell goods, etc... They get involved in a kidnapping plot, a young commoner women is kidnapped... The charcters quickly find out, through one means or another that it was nobles who did this (thus anti establishment, corrupt officals) the father of the victim offers all he has, a couple of goats, some silver, to the characters to save his only daughter. Following the trail the characters rescue the girl and find information that the nobles were sent to get the girl by the evil prince. The characters begin a small (4-8) games leaning more about the enemy and fighting his minions, while building a reputation for themselves after a point they learn they need assistance from the silver dragon back to main plot... Just my two cents.
tiercel 05-04-05, 11:30 PM	It seems to me that if the Silver wants the PCs to destroy the two orbs, thinks they are possible hero material, but aren't really trustworthy enough to be given Orb #1, there is one obvious thing to try: Have them steal Orb #2. (Oops, did I just suggest a LG dragon should advocate theft? I meant, er, "liberate." Remove. Whatever. If it's OK to go destroy the thing, I think stealing it probably isn't a big deal.) If they are successful, they can bring it to some safe location to be combined with Orb #1 for the Big Boom. Better yet, if information about the Orbs isn't common knowledge, the Silver can simply, truthfully tell the PCs that Orb #2 is the BBEG's Big Scary Power Source and that it needs to be removed and destroyed. Don't mislead the PCs, per se, just don't tell them the whole truth. If the PCs don't know exactly what it is, just that it is scary powerful and EEEEVIL (which the Silver will readily believe!), they probably won't go around aiming the thing at dragons. The Silver should probably feel guilty about manipulating the PCs, but if anything is going to make it push the edges of its alignment, something like this would be it. You should probably roleplay the Silver a little guiltily, and more ready to talk about what the PCs should do and what their rate of compensation will be than what exactly the Orb of Power does ("...we, ah, believe it gives <the BBEG> great power, and removing it from him to be destroyed will ... be a great blow to his designs.") The beauty of this approach is that non-good-aligned characters are generally easier to motivate in simple terms: large sacks of loot. This, the dragon can provide. (Yes, a dragon hates parting with any of its horde, but I'd think that getting rid of my One Fatal Weakness would be a pretty darned good reason. That, and some of my dragon buddies would chip in.) Of course, the problem (or opportunity, depending how things go) is that your PCs will likely become inveterately curious about what the BBEG's Big Scary Orb actually *does*....
Nor'Morgwae 05-04-05, 11:37 PM	umm.. why not just send them after the orb in the hands of the evil guy instead of handing over the 2nd one? Dragons are smart and marching the second orb into the BBEGs castle to smack them together doesn't sound that smart, if the party fails the dragons are in big trouble. He can be a great deal less picky about the party if he sends them after the evil guys orb, because they have to be better than the guy who has it now. If they fail they are probably dead, no worries and he can find another group to try (this would also be a good sourse of replacement PC if the dragon is send waves of heores on this quest). He doesn't even need to tell them about the 2nd orb ahead of time. Just be sure to have the good controled one in some very unpleasent place so they can't just walk in and break the orbs over tea and biscuts. Also, if he doesn't tell them he is a dragon then he doesn't have to worry about them trying to use it on him (or have one control good dragons and the other one evil dragons) I know these suggestion may mean some major capaign changes so I won't be crushed if you don't like them. you could also consider: Geas/Questing a PC may just make them mad. It also means no side quests. Consider making them do a quest to prove themselves first. Something very dangerous and heroic as part of the dragon's test. Give the dragon something these 2 characters would want more than the orb. Look at their histories and find that 1 thing that they woulld do anything for and have the dragon know how to find it.
Nor'Morgwae 05-04-05, 11:40 PM	opps, sorry. Tiercel seems to have beaten to me on the punch on my first suggestion... Well, their 2 votes for stealing the BBEGs orb... :D
ajb47 05-05-05, 08:15 AM	Have them steal Orb #2. (Oops, did I just suggest a LG dragon should advocate theft? I meant, er, "liberate." Remove. Whatever. If it's OK to go destroy the thing, I think stealing it probably isn't a big deal.) If they are successful, they can bring it to some safe location to be combined with Orb #1 for the Big Boom. Because the Silver doesn't want anyone he doesn't trust handling a Dragon Orb that can control him and his brethren and eventually kill them. Better yet, if information about the Orbs isn't common knowledge, the Silver can simply, truthfully tell the PCs that Orb #2 is the BBEG's Big Scary Power Source and that it needs to be removed and destroyed. Don't mislead the PCs, per se, just don't tell them the whole truth. If the PCs don't know exactly what it is, just that it is scary powerful and EEEEVIL (which the Silver will readily believe!), they probably won't go around aiming the thing at dragons. This might work, but as you pointed out, they may then become too curious about what the Orb is and does. Especially since by the time BBEG is ready to invade, it will be known that there are dragons back in the world. umm.. why not just send them after the orb in the hands of the evil guy instead of handing over the 2nd one? Dragons are smart and marching the second orb into the BBEGs castle to smack them together doesn't sound that smart, if the party fails the dragons are in big trouble. This is a reason not to send the PC's in with the Orb that I hadn't considered. It's even worse because my thoughts on the timing are that they would do it during the invasion, so they would have to go through the bad guys army. He doesn't even need to tell them about the 2nd orb ahead of time. Just be sure to have the good controled one in some very unpleasent place so they can't just walk in and break the orbs over tea and biscuts. It is in an unpleasant place. Part of the quests he plans to send them on includes retrieving the "keys" and the location of the vault. I figured they would be well guarded and be a good test of the skills the PC's have. Also, if he doesn't tell them he is a dragon then he doesn't have to worry about them trying to use it on him (or have one control good dragons and the other one evil dragons) He wasn't going to tell them until near the end, but I'm not sure yet if the Orbs will force a shapechange on an alternate form-ed dragon. I am leaning towards yes. However the one good one evil idea is workable. Consider making them do a quest to prove themselves first. Something very dangerous and heroic as part of the dragon's test. That is what my plan is at the moment and the alternate path is for what happens if the Silver decides these guys aren't trustworthy enough. (Which of course means I have to come up with some adventures that will test their moral fiber, but that's another thread.) Of course, depending on how far the PC's get in their "finals" as it were, I could always allow some impassioned plea on the part of the good-aligned or honorbound players to have the dragon relent if the good PC's will allow themselves to be geased to keep the others from touching the Orb or something like that. Give the dragon something these 2 characters would want more than the orb. Look at their histories and find that 1 thing that they woulld do anything for and have the dragon know how to find it. That could work, but in this instance it would mean the deaths of others (both PC's have had their parents killed as part of their backgrounds so at the moment they would be after revenge). Not sure a LG dragon would do that, but he might if I make the perpetrators evil enough. AJ
LiXinjian 05-05-05, 08:37 AM	Try this: The Silver Dragon has the PC take his test (I presume they don't know it's a test). They probably fail, since the two neutrals do not live up to the dragon's ideals. So the dragon starts looking elsewhere, and finds some other adventurers who can be trusted, and to them he gives the orb. However, the keepers of the orb meet a horrible end (avalanche, or some other minor plot element suitable to you - it's important that they are not killed by creatures who take their gear!) and the PCs stumble upon the orb and its previous owners. Intrigued by the orb and the power it hints at (give it a minor power that seems to "grow"), they will most likely start to research what it is, so you'll be able to slowly feed them information on it, as you see fit. Eventually, the Silver Dragon learns that the original PCs are now the custodians of the Orb. He'd sooner take it away that leave it in their hands, but now they know too much about it, and so far have done well with it. Erring on the side of caution, Mr.Dragon sends one of his servant (platinum knight, dragon kith, whatever) to keep an unseen eye on the PCs. He's a bit curious himself, see. This servant can become a mysterious shadow and a benefactor (he could presumably save the PCs' butts once or twice, maybe not by attacking their enemies - which would be boring- but perhaps by distracting monsters headed for their campsite -the telltale signs of which could be read by a PC ranger - etc.) Now, it's up to the PCs to take good care of this orb. Eventually, MrDragon can show up and explain the whole situation, if you'd like. Edit: I kinda skimmed through this whole thread, and I am realizing my suggestion might not address your issue. If so, terribly sorry.
ajb47 05-05-05, 09:31 AM	The Silver Dragon has the PC take his test (I presume they don't know it's a test). They probably fail, since the two neutrals do not live up to the dragon's ideals. No they will not know it is a test, though they may know something is up because early on, the Silver will not talk to the PC's directly if he can help it. He will, for example, go to the head of the cleric's temple and suggest a mission for the cleric. However, the CN PC has no organization behind him, so he may have to be talked to directly, in which case, the Silver will be as subtle as I can make him. So the dragon starts looking elsewhere, and finds some other adventurers who can be trusted, and to them he gives the orb. However, the keepers of the orb meet a horrible end (avalanche, or some other minor plot element suitable to you - it's important that they are not killed by creatures who take their gear!) and the PCs stumble upon the orb and its previous owners. Intrigued by the orb and the power it hints at (give it a minor power that seems to "grow"), they will most likely start to research what it is, so you'll be able to slowly feed them information on it, as you see fit. I actually have had some dim thoughts in the distant back of my head about somehow having the dragon need the characters again in the end anyway. Thanks for the idea about how to go about it. {snippage} Edit: I kinda skimmed through this whole thread, and I am realizing my suggestion might not address your issue. If so, terribly sorry. No need to apologize. I think it is a good suggestion as a way for the PC's to get back into the game if they get knocked out. But like I said, the Silver might try to get the more honorbound party members to agree to keep the Orb from the others. AJ
LiXinjian 05-05-05, 09:19 PM	No need to apologize. I think it is a good suggestion as a way for the PC's to get back into the game if they get knocked out. But like I said, the Silver might try to get the more honorbound party members to agree to keep the Orb from the others. Keeping "secrets" from other party members seldom works well. But if you feel it's the best way to handle the situation, give it a shot. It's just that, in my experience, intra-party secrets of this sort tend to create frictions between party members.
Big Tom 05-05-05, 11:43 PM	Big fan of Martin. Always hated the Targaryans. I think LiXinjian has the best idea, though I'd personally kepp the shadow/servent guy a very minor part of the puzzle. Is it the alignment thing that makes the Dragon nervous about giving the mission to the PCs? If it is, consider more the conduct of the PC rather than their alignment as there are many ways to RP each alignment.
ajb47 05-06-05, 07:35 AM	Keeping "secrets" from other party members seldom works well. But if you feel it's the best way to handle the situation, give it a shot. It's just that, in my experience, intra-party secrets of this sort tend to create frictions between party members. I'm not so sure it will necessarily be secret. <i>If</i> the 2 party members screw things up but the Silver needs them anyway, it is well within his personality to tell the honorable PC's, "I have to trust you, but you must make sure the Orb does not fall into untrustworthy hands" (Or something along those lines) in front of the other 2. AJ
ajb47 05-06-05, 07:39 AM	Big fan of Martin. Always hated the Targaryans. Well, Danaerys isn't too bad. She's just been taught wrong. She doesn't know how insane her family was. Is it the alignment thing that makes the Dragon nervous about giving the mission to the PCs? If it is, consider more the conduct of the PC rather than their alignment as there are many ways to RP each alignment. I am planning on doing that. Some of the tests the Silver will put the PC's through will include how they handle some moral quandaries. If they tend to curb their more mercenary desires, he will be more likely to lead them to the Orb. If not, that's why I need the Alternate Path. Plus, he is a Diviner, so he can try to see how things will turn out at different stages. AJ
Yruc 05-06-05, 08:11 AM	why not change the dragon color to something more neutral good? I am assuming you are not going to give the PC's the 2nd orb, but send them to get the first one? A dragon would be smart enough to know (as someone else pointed out) that sending the orb into the hands of the enemy is a bad idea. As they are going through the "tests" hint at what the object looks like and if they fail so be it, but then let them go on and start to hear of BBEG amassing a large army etc... and then have some king/barron etc higher the PC's to investigate / stop BBEG and then have them go about it that way.....