Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyveil 11-05-04, 12:30 PM	I've been looking for a method that I think will work for our group but still keep some of the fun (and randomness) in rolling character stats. I saw another thread somewhere that has a pointbuy + rolling method which allows you to use 6 points to "buy" formulas for rolling. I may use something like that but it still seems like a pointbuy system and is missing the widely varied randomness of rolling 3-5 six-sided die. Here is the method I am thinking of using (or a close variation of): 1) Roll using any standard method (3d6 x 6, 4d6 x 6 - drop lowest, 5d6 x 6 - drop 2 lowest). 2) Assign the rolls to stats of the players choosing. 3) Have an arbitrary number (X) established before rolling - maybe something like 66 for average characters, 80 for more powerful characters). Players adjust their stats so that the sum equals this number, but must follow a few rules: A) Stats may only be raised if the characters stat total is less than (X) B) Stats may only be lowered if the characters stat total is greater than (X) The main reason I am considering this method is because it should create balanced characters but still give the players the excitement of getting high rolls (if they do). If you don't roll an 18, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to raise anything that high because your total may go over the threshhold, etc. Any suggestions? Ideas? EDIT: Oh by the way I hate completely random character creation. I've DM'ed before just using the 4d6 drop 1 method and ended up with a PC with all 14+ stats including a few 18's and a 17 and then I had another PC with 4 scores in the 9-12 range, one stat higher and one lower. I don't want to deal with having a party that is that unbalanced.
Lxarth 11-05-04, 12:50 PM	I don't want to deal with having a party that is that unbalanced. Thats why the Point-Buy method works. It makes the party balenced. But I, too, like the randomness of rolling for stats...my players usually roll really well and everyone likes their stats, so far I have not used the Point-Buy method.
clarkvalentine 11-05-04, 12:58 PM	Here's an idea (and it might be a dumb one, I haven't thought it through completely yet). Players gen their PCs through point-buy. If they wish, they may spend their level 1 feat on replacing any single attribute they wish with the result of roll 4 keep 3 - but even if it reduces the score, you must accept it. You may only do this at chargen, and only with your 1st level feat. Advantages: - You still get the fun of a random generation - Most attributes remain controlled and balanced - You could end up spending one feat to dramatically increase an attribute. Disadvantages: - A player who knows they will be doing this will leave that score at 8 in the point-buy, effectively making the rest of their attributes higher. - A player who rolls a "1-2-2-1" will hate life. - You could end up spending one feat to dramatically increase an attribute.
Rekuji 11-05-04, 02:08 PM	I allow my players to roll 3d6 6 times, and use this as a base starting point for their stats. They are then allowed to spread 15 points using the point-buy method, with their rolled stats being the starting point, as opposed to all 8's. It actually comes out to a very balanced set of characters, and rolling low doesnt kill your character, because you can simply use your 15 points to increase the lower scores.
Board_Rider 11-05-04, 02:10 PM	EDIT: Oh by the way I hate completely random character creation. I've DM'ed before just using the 4d6 drop 1 method and ended up with a PC with all 14+ stats including a few 18's and a 17 and then I had another PC with 4 scores in the 9-12 range, one stat higher and one lower. I don't want to deal with having a party that is that unbalanced. Then go with the point buy system. Thats about the only way to avoid this. Roll methods 1. Roll 18d6 at once. The players can group any 3 dice as the wish but not use any 1 die more than once. 2. (Same but with higher results generally) 24d6 drop 6 lowest. 3. 5d4 drop the lowest. 4. Say that the players can fill in the stats as they wish but may not go above a +X total modifer. Unless you make up the character yourself (putting in the numbers at randon, no rolling) you will probably never fully balance all the PC creation outcomes. Dice are funny in that way!
delroland 11-05-04, 02:19 PM	Who remembers this one: All stats begin at 8. Roll 7d6, and allocate the results to your stats as you see fit. No stat may be higher than 18. This gives you averages of twelve. If you want higher (say, avg 14), just add more d6 (in the case of 14, you would roll 10d6).
xann 11-05-04, 02:19 PM	point-buy is for meta thinkers and power gamers, randomness is the heart of dnd, nuff said!!!!!
clarkvalentine 11-05-04, 02:29 PM	point-buy is for meta thinkers and power gamers, randomness is the heart of dnd, nuff said!!!!! Opinions vary, of course. But when I create a D&D character, I tend to play that same character for a looong campaign, lasting a couple of years on average. I prefer some control over what sort of character I'm going to invest that much time and effort in.
WarRabbit 11-05-04, 02:38 PM	Here's one of the methods I allow my players to use when rolling characters (they get options and most of the time they just use 32 point buy...but some prefer rolling). The 'point' values I came up with are pretty darn close to the statistical average in a point buy system of the result of the best 3 when that number of dice are rolled. Method: Select number of dice to roll(and keep best 3) based on point system as shown in chart below. Each character gets 32 points. The number of dice are assigned to stats before the dice are rolled. # Dice / Points 3 / 2.5 4 / 4.5 5 / 6.0 6 / 7.5 7 / 8.5 8 / 9.5 9 / 10 Example: Bob decides he wants to play a cleric and assigns his points as follows: Str 7.5 points ---> means he rolls 6d6 drop lowest 3 Dex 2.5 points ---> means he rolls 3d6 Con 4.5 points ---> means he rolls 4d6 drop lowest 1 Int 2.5 points ---> means he rolls 3d6 Wis 8.5 points ---> means he rolls 7d6 drop lowest 4 Cha 6.0 points ---> means he rolls 5d6 drop lowest 3 The total points he used is 31.5, so he loses the remaining .5 Once the character is finished rolling, the equivalent point buy for the stats is determined. For example, if Bob rolled 14,9,13,12,17,10 then the equivalent point buy is 6+1+5+4+13+2 = 31(stats below 8 are -1/1 below 8). If the character comes up with less than a 26 point buy, he may adjust any scores he wants upwards until he reaches 26. If he comes up with more than a 40 point buy, he must adjust scores downwards until a 40 is reached. Over the long haul rolling the dice using this method is better on average than a 32 point buy, but sometimes you get stats where you don't want them and sometimes your stats are lower than the party average.
UltimateReality 11-05-04, 02:45 PM	point-buy is for meta thinkers and power gamers, randomness is the heart of dnd, nuff said!!!!! Eh...the problem with point buy is that there's a definite way to break it. It's easy to min-max your stats and choose racials to supplement. Doesn't encourage a lot of roleplayable characters if you do happen to have a power gamer or munchkin in the group. And people who are lucky with dice tend to not like it either. :P I like the ideas in this thread, although our group currently uses the "5d6, drop the lowest two" method. Will have to keep these other ones in mind for future campaigns though...
Cantankerous 11-05-04, 03:49 PM	One that seems to work well so far has been 3d6+2 (maximum of 18) rolled six times, arrange as desired. No terrible stats, a good solid chance at something exceptional and an average that runs about 12.8 instead of the standard 3d6 average of 10.5 or the standard 4d6 drop the lowest average of 11.9. It makes for "sexy" PC's without having them too over blown and while still giving them a chance at the kind of miserable (but not untenable) stat that can make a character more memorable than an 18 does. There's a Barbarian in my present group of PC's who rolled an 18 (actually the roll was 5,5,6+2) Strength and a 6 Wisdom. Imagine the below spoken with a thick Styrian (like Governor Ahhhhnold's back in the early days of his film career) accent "You've earned my wrath, damn you. I'll split your head to the eyes! When I can find your head." Said to an animated but helmetless suit of armor. Tons of fun! Isshia
clarkvalentine 11-05-04, 03:54 PM	Doesn't encourage a lot of roleplayable characters if you do happen to have a power gamer or munchkin in the group. It can, yes, but if the campaign is designed to discourage minmaxing, the minmaxer will regret his decision. This happened in a campaign I'm playing in right now. A player minmaxed his stats for ranged combat, but when he discovered that the players with the well-rounded characters were having a good deal more fun than he was, he reworked the PC with a broader base of abilities.
Adraedan 11-05-04, 04:00 PM	my old DM let us do the random 4d6 drop lowest, but also gave us an extra 6 points to distribute amongst the scores with a limit of no more than 18 in a score before racial modifiers...combines the best of point buy with random roll.
DrWorm 11-05-04, 04:09 PM	2d4+14 drop the lowest. Sure the characters are underpowered but it jsut means the DM has to wait until level 2 to throw dragons at them.
Tyveil 11-05-04, 04:48 PM	I tried my method listed above and it seems to work really well. Though I found the sweet spot to be 72 for the slightly above-average PC's I'll have playing my campaign. I used 4d6 (drop the lowest), roll stats in order (Str-Dex-Con). Before assigning points, 1 pair of stats can be swapped with eachother. This method seemed to do a good job of keeping the random feel to character development (if you want to play a certain class, you'll still want decent rolls for that classes primary stats.. but the class won't be unplayable if you don't get it), as well as keeping the characters balanced. Here are the stats I rolled (bear in mind I haven't played for a long time so I'm not the uber min/maxer). Fighter Class Str 17 - Dex 13 - Con 15 - Int 8 - Wis 9 - Cha 10 Had to add 4 to stats - Swapped Str and Int Cleric Class Str 7 - Dex 8 - Con 12 - Int 12 - Wis 18 - Cha 15 (I kind of got screwed on my rolls here but definitely not unplayable) Had to reduce stats by 4 - Swapped Wis and Dex Mage Class Str 10 - Dex 15 - Con 9 - Int 17 - Wis 10 - Cha 11 Had to reduce stats by 1 - Swapped Int and Con Rogue Class Str 15 - Dex 15 - Con 12 - Int 6 - Wis 12 - Cha 12 Rolled exactly 72 - Swapped Dex and Wis Overall I think I ended up with pretty good results, similar to what I'd like my PC's to look like. I didn't have total control to min/max and definitely ended up with some stats that add some unique flavor to the characters.
Cantankerous 11-06-04, 04:50 AM	I tried my method listed above and it seems to work really well. Though I found the sweet spot to be 72 for the slightly above-average PC's I'll have playing my campaign. I used 4d4 (drop the lowest), roll stats in order (Str-Dex-Con). Before assigning points, 1 pair of stats can be swapped with eachother. This method seemed to do a good job of keeping the random feel to character development (if you want to play a certain class, you'll still want decent rolls for that classes primary stats.. but the class won't be unplayable if you don't get it), as well as keeping the characters balanced. Here are the stats I rolled (bear in mind I haven't played for a long time so I'm not the uber min/maxer). Fighter Class Str 17 - Dex 13 - Con 15 - Int 8 - Wis 9 - Cha 10 Had to add 4 to stats - Swapped Str and Int Cleric Class Str 7 - Dex 8 - Con 12 - Int 12 - Wis 18 - Cha 15 (I kind of got screwed on my rolls here but definitely not unplayable) Had to reduce stats by 4 - Swapped Wis and Dex Mage Class Str 10 - Dex 15 - Con 9 - Int 17 - Wis 10 - Cha 11 Had to reduce stats by 1 - Swapped Int and Con Rogue Class Str 15 - Dex 15 - Con 12 - Int 6 - Wis 12 - Cha 12 Rolled exactly 72 - Swapped Dex and Wis Overall I think I ended up with pretty good results, similar to what I'd like my PC's to look like. I didn't have total control to min/max and definitely ended up with some stats that add some unique flavor to the characters. Do you mean 5d4 perhaps? Because otherwise I don't see where you are getting the 17's & 18's from. The max roll of 4d4 is a 16. Or was there maybe a +2 missing to the end of that 4d4 roll? The mean average for a 4d4 roll would be 10 even, or 60 over all for the character, so that +2 per stat might account well for your 72 sweet spot you mentioned. Isshia
ShadowDragon8685 11-06-04, 05:13 AM	Here's what I've been thinking about. Let everyone roll six seperate sets of 4d6 drop the lowest. They have six sets to play with. This often leads to interesting descisions, such as "Do I take the one with two eighteens and a three, or the one with sixteens, fifteens and twelves?" If NONE of these sets roll higher than an average of 14, just let the player go nuts with 42 point buy. That should be enough to be good.
Burgundy Lotus 11-06-04, 06:57 AM	1 method that allows for dice rolling and gives everyone perfectly balanced characters is to have each player roll 1 or 2 of the stats and have everyone use these. So if there are three players, each generates 2 stats and everyone uses the 6 stats as they see fit. I've done this once (with 5 players and myself for the 6th) the rolls were 18 (or 17, can't remember exactly) 16, 16, 16, 15, 14. VERY high power but everyone was equal.
Cantankerous 11-06-04, 08:45 AM	Here's what I've been thinking about. Let everyone roll six seperate sets of 4d6 drop the lowest. They have six sets to play with. This often leads to interesting descisions, such as "Do I take the one with two eighteens and a three, or the one with sixteens, fifteens and twelves?" If NONE of these sets roll higher than an average of 14, just let the player go nuts with 42 point buy. That should be enough to be good. If you're going to allow a 42 point buy, the 4d6, in all probability, unless it is massively cheated, will not net you nearly the big numbers a 42 point buy will allow. Below is a six set as you outlined from the Irony Games Dice Server (one of the best non-linear dice serveres on the web) 12,13,13,17,11,8 (74) 14,14,18,10,10,14 (80) 16,11,15,9,11,10 (72) 14,15,13,7,14,16 (79) 13,13,6,15,12,8 (67) 13,17,7,12,12,11 (72) average of 12.333 per stat over all. Even the best of those, that 80 point total comes out to less than the 42 point buy. The worst, that 67 point total, was a 22 point buy. You'll probably get way to great a disparity. Isshia
ShadowDragon8685 11-06-04, 09:08 AM	Yes, but I didn't say the total average. I said the average of none of them. If NONE of them comes up to an average of fourteen, he may as well have 42 point buy. After all, getting tremendously unlucky is just as hard as getting tremendously lucky - harder in this case - and since this is chargen, may as well say ohwell and let him have his way. For exampe: One thing I do, if someone's natural ability score (before racial modification) rolls out to a 3, nessissitating four 1s on the D6, I automatically change that to a natural 20. Snakeeyes twice in a row is a lot rarer than getting three out of four to come up six. It should be rewarded, not punished with an unplayable stat.
dantedarkstar 11-06-04, 09:58 AM	I do not take credit for this. I saw it somewhere on these boards before. All stats start at 6. Now, roll d6 for each stat (the order matters). for example. Str 6+2 Dex 6+4 Con 6+1 Int 6+6 Wis 6+3 Cha 6+3 Now, turn around each d6 you rolled (1 -> 6, 2 -> 5, 3 -> 4, 4 -> 3, 5 -> 2, 6 -> 1). Our example, we rolled 2,4,1,6,3,3 so we get 5,3,6,1,4,4 now. Distribute these numbers among stats as you see fit (one number per stat) to get your final ability scores. For example Str 6+2+1 = 9 Dex 6+4+4 = 14 Con 6+1+5 = 12 Int 6+6+6 = 18 Wis 6+3+3 = 12 Cha 6+3+4 = 13 This way, you get characters with ability score sum always equal to 78. The sum of ability modifiers will be between +6 and +9. To change the balance you could go with 2 at start and roll d8 instead of d6 (sum of abilities 66, modifiers +0 to +3) or with 10 at start and roll d4 (sum of abilities 90, modifiers +12 to +15) If you use d5 or d7 (d6 reroll 6, d8 reroll 8 for example), you could scale the balance more accurately. Good points: >There is randomness >There is place for choice >Everyone is balanced against each other >GM can choose exact power level of the characters Bad points: >PC can get as low as 13 in an ability he really wants high The bad point can be easily remedied by allowing player to reroll if he really rolls poorly for the type of character he wants.
Tyveil 11-06-04, 03:36 PM	Do you mean 5d4 perhaps? Because otherwise I don't see where you are getting the 17's & 18's from. The max roll of 4d4 is a 16. Or was there maybe a +2 missing to the end of that 4d4 roll? The mean average for a 4d4 roll would be 10 even, or 60 over all for the character, so that +2 per stat might account well for your 72 sweet spot you mentioned. Isshia Sorry, I typo'ed. I was rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest. I'll edit my posts. Thanks.
Feriin 11-06-04, 08:01 PM	When I had my players make thier characters I told them to either roll 5 d6 and drop the 2 lowwest, or they could go with a + 15 to ability modifiers.. Example ( for the +15) Ability Ability Stat Score Modifier Str. 18 +4 Dex. 15 +2 Con. 18 +4 Int. 13 +1 Wis. 17 +3 Cha. 13 +1 Yeah I know it makes them Powerful, But these people are playing Heroes after all..
Palin the Wizard 11-06-04, 08:32 PM	As I stated in another thread, I generally tend to give them 84-86 points, on a point-by-point basis. It's powerful, but then, they're playing heroes, not wimps. It's nice, clean and balanced. And the scale can easily be adjusted. That said, I like the method dantedarkstar posted. I saw it when it was first posted on the boards (or at least when a poster claimed he had come up with it).
clarkvalentine 11-06-04, 09:18 PM	As I stated in another thread, I generally tend to give them 84-86 points, on a point-by-point basis. It's powerful, but then, they're playing heroes, not wimps. It's nice, clean and balanced. And the scale can easily be adjusted. If you use this method, ignore racial attribute adjustments. For races with more minuses than plusses (such as half-orc, which gets +2 STR and -2 to two others) it effectively sticks them with fewer points to spend.
Nom 11-08-04, 12:21 AM	3) Have an arbitrary number (X) established before rolling - maybe something like 66 for average characters, 80 for more powerful characters). Players adjust their stats so that the sum equals this number, but must follow a few rules: A) Stats may only be raised if the characters stat total is less than (X) B) Stats may only be lowered if the characters stat total is greater than (X)Interesting. One thing I observe is that this encourages low-skewed characters to accentuate that skew (by pushing up their higher scores). Likewise, high-skewed characters will either push down several average scores or kill a single low. Ultimately, this ends up being an X ability point score buy with unpredictable restrictions on allocation.
Cantankerous 11-08-04, 05:13 AM	Interesting. One thing I observe is that this encourages low-skewed characters to accentuate that skew (by pushing up their higher scores). Likewise, high-skewed characters will either push down several average scores or kill a single low. Ultimately, this ends up being an X ability point score buy with unpredictable restrictions on allocation. Very true Nom. That's the primary reason that I'm not in love with the point buy method either. Personally since I wasn't able to simply pick my attributes before birth, I don't see any need to extend that ability to my characters or to my players characters. ;) Isshia
Caligula 11-09-04, 02:05 AM	In my campaign we consider the PCs to be heroes, who should raise above the common man in D&D. Hence, we use 5d6 and disregard the 2 lowest. This is the best way to create randomly generated hero PCs. If you want to have more common PCs, you can lower it to 4d6 and disregard the lowest dice. This will have some really low scores, like 6-8 though, so be aware of this! I think point-buy is totally against the soul of D&D. D&D is a game and thus dice should be the way to decide the abilities. Also, when levelling PCs, when they roll for Hit Points, I always allow them to reroll natural 1īs.
Caligula 11-09-04, 02:08 AM	or they could go with a + 15 to ability modifiers.. But would you let someone adding, lets say like +10 to one ability? That would mean exceptionally strong Wizards for instance if they were allowed extremely high INT-scores. I think point-buy is boring, mechanical and static.
Palin the Wizard 11-09-04, 04:25 AM	If you use this method, ignore racial attribute adjustments. For races with more minuses than plusses (such as half-orc, which gets +2 STR and -2 to two others) it effectively sticks them with fewer points to spend. And it gives races with more bonuses than penalties (such as a tiefling) more points to spend. A half-orc will always have fewer points than a character with the exact same stats before racial adjustments. Half-orcs are mechanically weak. It's not a problem with my method, it's a problem with the half-orc. So no, you do not ignore racial attribute adjustments. I have used this method for quite a while, and it is just as balanced as point-buy (in fact, I believe it is more, but I don't agree with making high scores cost more).
Aeromus 11-09-04, 06:14 AM	In my past games as a player, I have been far to often the "crutch" player. Meaning my max stat is 14, with a few 12 or 13, possibly an 8 or 9, and a 10 or so to build with. This "never" used to bother me, until I started seeing what others roll and get to play with. Always a 17 or 18, a few 14-16s, and nothing below an 11, which in thier mind is the end of the world. As such I devised my own way of rolling stats in my campaigns. Basicially each player rolls 3d6+6, and keep the best two. This is thier only "unique stat. The other stats are rolled 4d6 drop the lowest, and the players pick thier order. However, only ONE player rolls. The kicker is the last 5 rolled stats are community stats. meaning one person rolls the five other numbers, and all players make use of them. example Four players sit down to make chars with thier DM. Cindy, Bob, Joe, and Sam. The DM asks which player is rolling the community stats tonight. And, Cindy raises her hand. Four six sided dice are randommly rolled to generate the following five scores. 15, 13, 12, 10, 8 All four players grumble at the 8 and 10, but look somewhat relieved with a 15. Then each player picks up three six sided dice and rolls. Selects the two highest dice, and adds six, for thier last score. I do believe stats should be random. But, I have far to often seen (in been) in the weaker spot of the 3.0 game, where my 14 dex as a rogue is over shadowed by the dex of 16 the party cleric managed to have This ensures no one charactor is vastly over powering then the others, and the final die lends itself to giving them a bit of a kick, as this 3d6+6 drop one method has almost never generated less then a 14.
Aeromus 11-09-04, 06:47 AM	nt
DrWorm 11-09-04, 08:06 PM	In my past games as a player, I have been far to often the "crutch" player. Meaning my max stat is 14, with a few 12 or 13, possibly an 8 or 9, and a 10 or so to build with. This "never" used to bother me, until I started seeing what others roll and get to play with. Always a 17 or 18, a few 14-16s, and nothing below an 11, which in thier mind is the end of the world. As such I devised my own way of rolling stats in my campaigns. Basicially each player rolls 3d6+6, and keep the best two. This is thier only "unique stat. The other stats are rolled 4d6 drop the lowest, and the players pick thier order. However, only ONE player rolls. The kicker is the last 5 rolled stats are community stats. meaning one person rolls the five other numbers, and all players make use of them. example Four players sit down to make chars with thier DM. Cindy, Bob, Joe, and Sam. The DM asks which player is rolling the community stats tonight. And, Cindy raises her hand. Four six sided dice are randommly rolled to generate the following five scores. 15, 13, 12, 10, 8 All four players grumble at the 8 and 10, but look somewhat relieved with a 15. Then each player picks up three six sided dice and rolls. Selects the two highest dice, and adds six, for thier last score. I do believe stats should be random. But, I have far to often seen (in been) in the weaker spot of the 3.0 game, where my 14 dex as a rogue is over shadowed by the dex of 16 the party cleric managed to have This ensures no one charactor is vastly over powering then the others, and the final die lends itself to giving them a bit of a kick, as this 3d6+6 drop one method has almost never generated less then a 14. I actually kinda like this method. Gives the players a chance to fondle their beloved dice, and provides them with a even starting point. Bravo
Nom 11-10-04, 01:58 AM	Very true Nom. That's the primary reason that I'm not in love with the point buy method either. Personally since I wasn't able to simply pick my attributes before birth, I don't see any need to extend that ability to my characters or to my players characters. ;)<curmudgeon>Hmm. Does the same rule apply to NPCs? Because the DM doesn't get to choose what he is like in RL, he shouldn't choose what the characters in his world are like. And by your logic, one shouldn't allow PC characters to even arrange where their stats go. Or what if we consider that the MM explicitly defines "normal" as 11/11/11/10/10/10 (MM pg 7), which is based on the idea that average / non-elite characters are based on 3d6 (DMG pg 110). The standard rules are built on the assumptions that PCs are "elite" (DMG pg 110), have an approximately equivalent financial situation (PH pg 111), and have chosen or are destined to become adventurers. As in literature, the story is written about the characters that the DM and PCs choose to write a story about, not randomly generated commoners. :rolleyes: </curmudgeon> Of course, it's possible you were being facetious, and I've missed it. :)
Bartleby_GoC 11-10-04, 10:17 AM	The method I'm currently using is 4d6, reroll 1's then drop the lowest. Then they get to drop any stat or combination by up to two points and sink those into the stat of their choice (drop one stat by 2 and raise one by two, drop two stats by one and raise one stat by two, or drop one stat by two and raise two stats by one). Some characters have better stats than others. It happens. Since all the rolls happenin fron of me, though, I know there's no guarantees. For HP, I roll a die, they roll a die, 1's are rerolled. Highest roll is used. Like I said, they are more powerful than average. Bartleby